My side of the story?<p>Well, I have a lot of resentment for a close friendship that my H has with a female colleague of his. She used to just appear on the scene when we went out with a group of friends/colleagues. Then he started up an exercise routine with her, because I was too busy to exercise with him (so therefore he told me I wasn't aloud to complain). Then, after I had sex with the OM for the first time (or somewhere around that time), they started hanging out together alone, without groups of friends. The frequency increased more after the 2nd time I had sex with the OM. My H of course says this happened because he was so upset about what he overhead / witnessed and needed a place to go where he could forget. But we had a few nasty fights about this, and the last one was what led to him blurting out that he knew about both times.<p>Also, there was a lot of stress in our lives in the weeks leading up to the first time I cheated. My husband turned 30 (and was not happy about it), his mom had breast cancer (she's actually recovering quite well now), and a lot of work activities that seemed to gobble up the time we used to spend together.<p>So there's a glimpse. I'm sure lots of people will have lots more to say now. I'm not implying that what I've said this time excuses my behaviour, I'm just speculating about what perhaps led up to it.<p>Bring it on, it's all helpful.
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TooMuchCoffeeMan:
<strong>Jen Brown:<p>A lot of the stuff we're telling you is solely based on the facts you've presented. But I suspect that there may be more to your story. For starters, your relationship with your H prior to your affair is something that you have yet to tell us. He is human and very likely has contributed with plenty of problems to the marriage which in turn may have helped create the environment that made your affair possible. Sure your affair with his best friend has made you out to be the bad guy, but even the bad guy has his side of the story. What is your side of the story Jen Brown?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Jen Brown:<p>It seems from your last post that your H's friendship with his female colleague might have turned into an emotional affair and possibly a sexual affair after he discovered your sexual encounters with his best friend. If this is the case, it's going to hurt like he** and may make you wonder whether beign married to him is at all worth it. Only you can decide this.<p>Now going to OM, you stated that he was the one that persued you into having a sexual affair, how did that come about?<p>[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</p>

Hmmm, it is entirely possible that your H is "involved" with that OW. You should be aware of this....<p>I still don't see that you have answered (perhaps I have missed it) why you did what you did. Did you have an attraction for his best friend? Did you get drunk one night and it happened? Had his friend persued you for quite some time? The circumstances are relevant as to how your H may view your actions. <p>Both of ya really should consider counseling as soon as possible. You should know that your H is extremely vulnerable to his own A during this time (if is not already having one - my guess he is at least having an EA at this point - based on what you said).<p>If possible, try to negotiate the removal of the OW from his life. The two of you also should discuss the removal of the OM completely as well. The two of you are on speeding trains going the opposite direction right now. One (hopefully both) of you has to get off and make that move toward recovery. Since we don't have the opportunity to tell your H to do so, I hope you will make that effort.

Jen Brown:<p>Your H may beleive that his 'friendship' with this female colleague is not an affair because there may not have been any sex between them - unlike you and his 'best friend' - but it sure has all the the markings of it. Spending more time with her than with you, his W, and now time alone together and not revealing any details of where, when, what, and why of their meetings, is having an affair.<p>You may have messed up big time by having sex with his 'best friend' but your H sure has not been behaving like a saint in the marital department either. At least in your case you've shown a willingness to give up the OM, yet in your H's case he has not shown any sign of doing likewise with his OW.<p>You stated that it was your H's 'best friend' who persued you into having sex with him. What were the factors that made you decide to have sex with him?<p>I too agree that both of you need professional counseling to help you resolve your issues - i.e. why did your H start a 'frienship' with OW and what caused you to have sex with his 'best friend' - because even if you and him decide to divorce, these issues will probably follow you into the next relationship unless you and him seek help in resolving them in the present.<p>[ June 05, 2002: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</p>

Ok, neutral observer coming in here.<p>Jen:<p>You have received a lot of good general advice here from the posters. But I have to tell you, there is a lot about what you say that doesn't hang together - so if you are serious about getting help, you are going to have to face some facts.<p>Firstly, I absolutely get no sense of remorse or regret from your posts. I get no sense of "why" you did what you did. Frankly, it all comes across as a couple of casual encounters - while your H was around to eavesdrop no less.<p>Your H's involvement with the other woman was not the wisest thng to do in the first place, and I would guess caused some tension to begin with. But looking at the timeline, things didn't appear to really "take off" until AFTER your encounter with OM. And surely, you can understand why it would. And maybe, the situations was primed such that your encounter with OM was all it took for your H to start looking elsewhere.<p>The people here are trying to provide some guidance based on some pretty skinny facts. They can't, and YOU can't, address and correct the problem if no one knows what went wrong in the first place! <p>Now, here is my advice. Both you and your H have to lay the cards on the table if you want a chance to fix this marriage But, someone has to take charge and start taking responsibility for what happened. And that would be you. Get to the root cause of the problem. You will have to make some sacrifices. You will most likely both need marriage counseling. <p>Forget about laying blame. Do you want your H back? Well if you do, you have to fight for him. Because from what you say, there may already be competition. Start your own plan A, divorce busting, or whatever you think will work. Try to repair the cracks in the marriage that led to the A.<p>Frankly, I can't imagine going through what your H experienced. But I'm not here to judge you. I'll never know what led up to these events.<p>However, I do believe you will need to take some pretty serious action on your part - real soon. And the bottom line is that you are going to have to show your H just how committed to this marriage you really are.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>
I'm not implying that what I've said this time excuses my behaviour, I'm just speculating about what perhaps led up to it.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Was it loneliness since you and your husband weren't seeing much of each other? Was it lack of emotional intimacy with your husband and his growing 'frienship' with the OW? Was it because you were already very much attracted to your husband's best friend and he told you he too was attracted to you? Were you depressed and sought emotional comfort with OM? Was it lack of sexual desire from your husband towards you that drove you to have sex with OM? Did you fall in love with OM? Was your husband emotionally cold to you prior to your affair?<p>[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</p>

I could blame my infidelity one or several of those possibilities. At this point I prefer to blame it on my stupidity and general lack of conscience. It IS my fault, and no one else's, except perhaps the OM's.<p>It's been a week and a half since my husband and I became separated. At first all I wanted to do was find reasons why I did what I did, thinking that if I could tell my husband what they were we'd be on the road to recovery. Hmm, pointing fingers is of no use when those fingers may end up pointing at the innocent, faithful spouse. So for now I think I'm done with that line of thinking. It doesn't seem to be very productive.<p>Now all I want to do is find a way to make my spouse believe that he can trust me and take me back. We still talk now and again, and I absolutely still love him. However, he is being very strong through most of this, and keeps saying that I'll get used to it eventually, and that he's getting used to it (being apart).<p>Two nights ago he moved out. I think being apart will help him to realize how much he cares for me, but I wish there were some way of helping that along without looking like a desperate, emotional nut. He was just here to pick up some more of his stuff, and that's just what I figure I looked like.<p>I have been to one brief counselling session, and I am going to an actual psychologist next week. However, my husband has no interest in counselling.<p>Any thoughts? (Should I now be moving to a different forum, since it's no longer a "just found out" situation?)<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TooMuchCoffeeMan:
<strong><p>Was it loneliness since you and your husband weren't seeing much of each other? Was it lack of emotional intimacy with your husband and his growing 'frienship' with the OW? Was it because you were already very much attracted to your husband's best friend and he told you he too was attracted to you? Were you depressed and sought emotional comfort with OM? Was it lack of sexual desire from your husband towards you that drove you to have sex with OM? Did you fall in love with OM? Was your husband emotionally cold to you prior to your affair?<p>[ June 07, 2002: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

WAT:
"Reminds me of the country song, "My wife ran off with my best friend, and I miss him.""<p>And then there's the bumper sticker I saw yesterday: "I got this truck for my wife. Nice trade, huh?"<p>All seriousness aside, am I the only one wondering just WHY did your H listen to you doing his so-called best friend TWICE, TWO WEEKS apart, and not try to stop it or confront you about it right away? It almost reads like a Penthouse letter, frankly, with your H and his friend setting up the encounter so he COULD listen. <p>I know, that's an awful cynical view of what happened to a REAL person who is actively posting to this forum, but why didn't he try to stop it? If it had been me, even if I couldn't barge in, I'd be making so much noise crying outside that the confrontation would have taken place anyway...<p>I don't know. In addition to you needing to figure out why you did what you did, you should consider the possibility that your H doesn't care all that much for you anyway.

Funny, your question of why didn't he barge in or at least make so much noise that it would lead to a confrontation was a topic of much discussion between myself and OM / best friend of H. It's all the OM could ask once I told him that my H knew. Even more entertaining is the fact that we too thought he may just be a pervert that was getting off listening to it all (as you mentioned Penthouse). Incidentally, my H is a huge porn fan. He likes to rent videos on a fairly regular basis.<p>I also took his choice not to barge in / interrupt as an affront indicating that he (H) didn't care much. Of course,he claims that he was a) in too much shock to know what to do (the first time), and b) he wanted to know if he could trust me. I sometimes wonder if he wanted me to keep cheating so he could be rid of me. That could be true too if the mere fact that I was capable of sleeping with someone else was enough to end it all for him. Letting me do it again may have made it easier for him to push me away.<p>Although, it's not entertaining to hear your final phrase, "you should consider the possibility that your H doesn't care all that much for you anyway." I fear this too. I hate to even think about that possibility. Of course, he'd never admit to that. He likes looking like the "perfect, innocent, hurt" one.<p>Thanks for your thoughts! They give me some strength again.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>WAT:
"Reminds me of the country song, "My wife ran off with my best friend, and I miss him.""<p>And then there's the bumper sticker I saw yesterday: "I got this truck for my wife. Nice trade, huh?"<p>All seriousness aside, am I the only one wondering just WHY did your H listen to you doing his so-called best friend TWICE, TWO WEEKS apart, and not try to stop it or confront you about it right away? It almost reads like a Penthouse letter, frankly, with your H and his friend setting up the encounter so he COULD listen. <p>I know, that's an awful cynical view of what happened to a REAL person who is actively posting to this forum, but why didn't he try to stop it? If it had been me, even if I couldn't barge in, I'd be making so much noise crying outside that the confrontation would have taken place anyway...<p>I don't know. In addition to you needing to figure out why you did what you did, you should consider the possibility that your H doesn't care all that much for you anyway.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Jen:<p>"Even more entertaining is the fact that we too thought he may just be a pervert that was getting off listening to it all (as you mentioned Penthouse). Incidentally, my H is a huge porn fan. He likes to rent videos on a fairly regular basis."<p>From 'Fritz the Cat': "Can I call 'em Preverts?"<p>Sorry again for my revolting sense of humor, but from your response above it does seem possible that this is the reason that your H didn't barge in, or at least confront one of you after the first encounter.<p>"a) in too much shock to know what to do (the first time), and b) he wanted to know if he could trust me."<p>To do what? Tell him yourself? (this would have been a good trust-builder, actually). Have a third encounter?<p>"I sometimes wonder if he wanted me to keep cheating so he could be rid of me. That could be true too if the mere fact that I was capable of sleeping with someone else was enough to end it all for him. Letting me do it again may have made it easier for him to push me away."<p>This certainly seems possible, considering he appears to be involved in at least an EA with this OW. In any case, this is a bad way to possibly end a M. You both stand a very good chance of making the same mistakes again, either with each other or with new partners. Counceling is your best hope. You can try to get your H to go with you to an MC, but if he won't go, you should still definitely go for your own growth.<p>"Although, it's not entertaining to hear your final phrase, "you should consider the possibility that your H doesn't care all that much for you anyway." I fear this too. I hate to even think about that possibility. Of course, he'd never admit to that. He likes looking like the "perfect, innocent, hurt" one."<p>There are no innocents, and even though I'm an atheist (or maybe because I am), I don't believe anybody's perfect. Even the BS isn't innocent for their part in setting up the conditions within the M for an A to occur. And the WS is also "guilty" of that, plus for choosing to have an A. <p>"Thanks for your thoughts! They give me some strength again."<p>Good for you! Take care.

Jen,<p>I suspect we may be getting a little far afield here. I suspect that he was in shock the first time and didn't know how to react the second. I mean does he beat up his best friend when obviously his W is enjoying this? Does he beat up his W? Both actions serve the purpose I suspect he thinks you and OM wanted to get rid of HIM.<p>This is all ideal speculation. What is not speculation is that he is very very hurt and he has moved out. The other part that is not speculation is the YOU choose his best friend. <p>Let me ask you, How would deal with this? How would you feel? I am not asking to make you feel bad. What we are seeking here is a way for you to approach your H and address the issues that are bothering him. The actual sex act may not bother him as much as the betrayal by the two people he was closest to: his W and his best friend.<p>Frankly, I don't know how I would react but I suspect I would leave. It is going to take some serious talking and a lot of constantly honest behavior from you to convince him he isn't just being played. <p>I sense as do others that there is more to this. Your suggestion that you worried about another woman makes me think you were playing with him a get even game. I hope I am wrong. But, Jen this is going to take time, patience, as well as dedication on your part.<p>Hang in there and continue to do some reading here. If you read some of the BS's stories you might get some insight to what your H is feeling and through that figure out how to address this situation.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

I just realized that I didn't mention that I am going for counselling. I went for an initial consultation last Thurs., and go for a "real" session with a psychologist next Wed. I'm even taking time off work so I can go.<p>Yeah, I know, I should've confessed to him. I somehow thought it would be better if he never knew....dumb, eh?<p>Oh yeah, about his "EA" woman - that's where he's living now. On her couch he says. Isn't that just @$%^&*#! great?? Oh well, at least she's terrified of me. Maybe fear will keep her paws off him.<p>Here's a new question: It's looking like this separation thing will be going on for quite some time. When / how do we tell people? Right now only a very select few friends know, and we're lying to the rest about why we keep popping up by ourselves at social events.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>Jen:<p>"Even more entertaining is the fact that we too thought he may just be a pervert that was getting off listening to it all (as you mentioned Penthouse). Incidentally, my H is a huge porn fan. He likes to rent videos on a fairly regular basis."<p>From 'Fritz the Cat': "Can I call 'em Preverts?"<p>Sorry again for my revolting sense of humor, but from your response above it does seem possible that this is the reason that your H didn't barge in, or at least confront one of you after the first encounter.<p>"a) in too much shock to know what to do (the first time), and b) he wanted to know if he could trust me."<p>To do what? Tell him yourself? (this would have been a good trust-builder, actually). Have a third encounter?<p>"I sometimes wonder if he wanted me to keep cheating so he could be rid of me. That could be true too if the mere fact that I was capable of sleeping with someone else was enough to end it all for him. Letting me do it again may have made it easier for him to push me away."<p>This certainly seems possible, considering he appears to be involved in at least an EA with this OW. In any case, this is a bad way to possibly end a M. You both stand a very good chance of making the same mistakes again, either with each other or with new partners. Counceling is your best hope. You can try to get your H to go with you to an MC, but if he won't go, you should still definitely go for your own growth.<p>"Although, it's not entertaining to hear your final phrase, "you should consider the possibility that your H doesn't care all that much for you anyway." I fear this too. I hate to even think about that possibility. Of course, he'd never admit to that. He likes looking like the "perfect, innocent, hurt" one."<p>There are no innocents, and even though I'm an atheist (or maybe because I am), I don't believe anybody's perfect. Even the BS isn't innocent for their part in setting up the conditions within the M for an A to occur. And the WS is also "guilty" of that, plus for choosing to have an A. <p>"Thanks for your thoughts! They give me some strength again."<p>Good for you! Take care.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hmm, whether I was playing a "get even" game is worth some thought, some deep thought. Thanks for bringing it up.<p>What does BS stand for? (There are WAY too many acronyms on this message board for me!)<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong>Jen,<p>I suspect we may be getting a little far afield here. I suspect that he was in shock the first time and didn't know how to react the second. I mean does he beat up his best friend when obviously his W is enjoying this? Does he beat up his W? Both actions serve the purpose I suspect he thinks you and OM wanted to get rid of HIM.<p>This is all ideal speculation. What is not speculation is that he is very very hurt and he has moved out. The other part that is not speculation is the YOU choose his best friend. <p>Let me ask you, How would deal with this? How would you feel? I am not asking to make you feel bad. What we are seeking here is a way for you to approach your H and address the issues that are bothering him. The actual sex act may not bother him as much as the betrayal by the two people he was closest to: his W and his best friend.<p>Frankly, I don't know how I would react but I suspect I would leave. It is going to take some serious talking and a lot of constantly honest behavior from you to convince him he isn't just being played. <p>I sense as do others that there is more to this. Your suggestion that you worried about another woman makes me think you were playing with him a get even game. I hope I am wrong. But, Jen this is going to take time, patience, as well as dedication on your part.<p>Hang in there and continue to do some reading here. If you read some of the BS's stories you might get some insight to what your H is feeling and through that figure out how to address this situation.<p>God Bless,<p>JL</strong><hr></blockquote>

Jen: <p>The forum home has the acronyms spelled out somewhere. BS is betrayed spouse. WS is wayward spouse.<p>Good that you're in counseling!! If your H is staying with his EA OW (other woman), I'd bet five bucks it's a PA (physical affair), or could soon be. <p>There is a lot of good information on this website, this forum, and a bunch of great publications to help you through this difficult experience. Read all you can, continue the conselling, and keep posting. There are a lot of excellent people with similar experiences that can help you through this!

It's not a matter of pointing fingers but of finding what were the causes that made you decide to have a PA with another man. That's why I threw at you all those questions to see if there was one or more that were the deciding factors that caused you to do what you did. Without finding the cause of what made you have sex with his 'best friend' there is very little hope that this scenario won't be repeated in the future with another man. I understand if you are embarrased to admit that you have a strong sex drive and that you were strongly attracted physically to your H's friend because you beleive that people may think you are a slut, but what ultimately people think about you - good or bad - is totally irrelevant to your search for the truth. Sure it was stupid what you did but unless you are willing to find out via counseling what really made you have sex with another man, your chances of repeating history are very high and you won't be able to formulate a marital recovery game plan that will have any credibility in your H's eyes.

Thanks again 2long. Those last couple acronyms were a little fuzzy until you cleared things up. <p>If I wanted to play dirty, I could force my H to tell our parents we're separated, then he couldn't stay at the EA OW's place anymore.....but I did make a deal with myself to only be nice to my H no matter what from here on out.<p>Indeed, I'll keep posting and reading. This message board has helped me A LOT! <p>My newest resolution is to keep smiling, not dwell on being lonely, have fun and try to be the confident, fun-loving woman my H fell in love with. Maybe that will help bring him back a little faster than a crying clingon would.<p>Well, time to call it a night!<p>Jen<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>Jen: <p>The forum home has the acronyms spelled out somewhere. BS is betrayed spouse. WS is wayward spouse.<p>Good that you're in counseling!! If your H is staying with his EA OW (other woman), I'd bet five bucks it's a PA (physical affair), or could soon be. <p>There is a lot of good information on this website, this forum, and a bunch of great publications to help you through this difficult experience. Read all you can, continue the conselling, and keep posting. There are a lot of excellent people with similar experiences that can help you through this!</strong><hr></blockquote><p> [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

2Long, I too thought about the penthouse letter style setup scenario between OM and H. Especially when Jen said that it was the OM that had persued her to have sex with and later her H saying that he wanted to remain friends with OM in the future [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] But it's probably more our testosterone drenched overactive male minds that are at work here<p>[ June 13, 2002: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</p>

Jen,<p>I hope you do think about the game angle. Since your H has moved in with his OW (other woman), it is likely he is playing games as well.<p>Is this sort of trend in your marriage, getting back at one another? Also, from the sounds of things the marriage was not going well at all before all of this started. He may have gone to OW because he was soooo hurt by what you did, but clearly she was a friend before.<p>Then the question comes down to, what needs of his where you NOT meeting? It is clear some of yours were not being met. The point here is for you to go into a Plan A approach. I realize it is usually the BS that does this, but since he has left and another woman is now in the picture, a Plan A approach is what you need. You can read about Plan A in the articles posted on this site by the Harley's.<p>The short version is that Plan A is for you, not to get your H back or break up his relationship with OW. It for you to evaluate what you have not done well in the marriage and start to work on those things. It is for you take time and avoid LB's. Is not about your H at this moment.<p>Plan A allows you space to heal some, think about what needs to be done and meet your H's needs when and if he will allow you to.<p>So do some reading and keep posting. 2Long and others are giving you good advice.<p>Hang in there and God Bless,<p>JL

Jen you and your H(husband) are both WS(wayward spouse) and BS(betrayed spouse). But since you ended your A(affair) for good and he is still in his, you are at this moment in time the BS and as such you are in need of plan A. Sure it's hard to meet your H(husband)'s EN(emotional needs) while he is living with his OW(other woman) but you can certainly avoid love busters -angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements and selfish demands - that are the love killers in a relationship. Avoiding these will make you a much more attractive option when he starts coming out of his A(affair). <p>In a way his moving in with the OW will be an eye opening experience for him because his A(affair) is nothing but a fantasy, and there is nothing like the good old reality of living with someone day in day out to destroy a fantasy. Also living with her will inevitably make him compare you and her, and more so if she starts love busting him after a few weeks, he may just start missing you his W whose been plan A'ing her butt off. BUT you must get a grip on your feelings towards his OW because an angry outburst, disrespectful judgement and selfish demand from you towards your H and/or her will sabotage your efforts to win him back and set you back to step 1.<p>So plan A till the cows come home.

What's kind of funny about plan A is that I wasn't clear before reading these posts that I need to do plan A. <p>"...avoid love busters -angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements and selfish demands - that are the love killers in a relationship. Avoiding these will make you a much more attractive option when he starts coming out of his A(affair)."<p>Also interesting is that after our last outburst, my husband and I agreed to either be calm and decent to each other, or not to interact. I have also decided that even if he fails at that I am going to be little miss sweetness, kindness and sunshine no matter what. So, I apparently am well on the way with Plan A, and will continue with it until the cows come home. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>My latest goal is to go out and enjoy life, and be the happy, confident woman he fell in love with, so that he can see or at least hear that by word of mouth. It will hopefully be a complimentary part of plan A.<p>Jen<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TooMuchCoffeeMan:
<strong>Jen you and your H(husband) are both WS(wayward spouse) and BS(betrayed spouse). But since you ended your A(affair) for good and he is still in his, you are at this moment in time the BS and as such you are in need of plan A. Sure it's hard to meet your H(husband)'s EN(emotional needs) while he is living with his OW(other woman) but you can certainly avoid love busters -angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements and selfish demands - that are the love killers in a relationship. Avoiding these will make you a much more attractive option when he starts coming out of his A(affair). <p>In a way his moving in with the OW will be an eye opening experience for him because his A(affair) is nothing but a fantasy, and there is nothing like the good old reality of living with someone day in day out to destroy a fantasy. Also living with her will inevitably make him compare you and her, and more so if she starts love busting him after a few weeks, he may just start missing you his W whose been plan A'ing her butt off. BUT you must get a grip on your feelings towards his OW because an angry outburst, disrespectful judgement and selfish demand from you towards your H and/or her will sabotage your efforts to win him back and set you back to step 1.<p>So plan A till the cows come home.</strong><hr></blockquote>