Do you ever have days when you just don't feel like you can do this? I honestly have not had a day like this yet, and the feeling is beyond agonizing. I told him, several times, before we were married, that I would NEVER tolerate infidelity, not once. He had no chance to 'screw up', and he said he understood that at the time. He said that kind of behavior was agianst everything he ever believed in, and he would never hurt me or anyone (if we didn't marry) that way.<p>Let me give you a little history....
I was married once before. I found out about a year before I married my ex, that he was a sex addict, heavy into porn. He cheated, then agreed to counselling. We got married anyhow (I don't know why. I didn't love him. I was 22 at the time. I thought he could be faithful if we were married). He cheated several times in the first year, and continued in the porn. We moved to another state, but his behavior continued. All the while I was praying for God to intervene. After what seemed like silence from God, I gave up. I was very disillusioned with life, my faith, and lack of divine intervention (I'm not making excussed for myself), I made some really bad decisions. I started seeing other people and filed for divorce. The marriage lasted 2 1/2 years. I felt like a zombie through the whole thing. I don't think I ever really loved my ex, because his affairs never impacted me the way this one has. I know I did a lot of crying and fighting with my ex, but I don't remember ever feeling such devistation and complete loss as I do now. Perhaps part of that was immaturity on my part. I really don't think I ever loved anyone else before my husband came along. <p>We had a different kind of courtship. Here's a little more history....
My H was a neighbor to my brother and his wife during the years I was married to my ex. During that time there was question about involvement between my current H and my brothers wife. Both denied everything.
After my divorce, I moved 'back home' to start over. I really liked the guy who is now my husband, right away. But before we started dating, I asked him point blank. 'did you have an affair with my sister in law?' he said no. I asked her, she said the same thing (I'll call her C) C and I have always been really close. I thought I could count on her word.
I persued the relationship, but strangely, he put me off for the longest time. He was what I would call, very lazy in the relationship. I did all the work to hold it together. We didn't go out much, mostly just sat around at his place waiting for the ambulance pager to go off. (he worked for EMS at that time) After about 2 years, I pretty much told him that I was tired of the waythings were and I wanted to know I he had any plans for our relationship (where was it going?) After that he got more 'active' in our relationship. During this time he changed jobs. His work and the needs of his friends were always elevated above me. (why did I stay with this guy???? - I loved him....)
I got pregnant about 6 months later. He decided at that point that he was going to buy a herd of cows, so the cows took the top stop, then his police job, then his friends, then me.
We got married, had the baby, and 6 weeks later sold the cows. Being a dairyman was a life long dream for him, and it was very, very hard for him to give that up. But he had a full time job and 8 hours a day in the barn. He had no time for his son, and that really got to him.
I had nothing to do with his decision to sell the cows, but to this day I think he blames me. If I had not gotten pregnant.... Yes, I told him I feel this way, and he denies that.
Fast forward over the nest year...we had a satisfactory marriage. It wasn't great, but he was gone a lot, and I had the baby to care for.
He started hanging around with OW in the summer of 2001. I warned him right away about her. She was going to school for Law enforcement, and was 19, and came from a family of trouble makers. He told me I was jealous and insecure....
In March of this year, when I first suspected that something was going on, I went back to C, and asked her again. She has had a major life change since the time I previously spoke of, and lives for the Lord now. SHe told me the truth- that she and my H (who wasn't may H at the time) had a very involved affair that lasted more than a year. So I wet to him, and said 'why did you lie to me?'
So why am I talking about all of this?????
Pattern.
He has a pattern of lying and cheating that goes way, way back. Can he change? Am I stupid to think that he can? If I would have know about his involvement with C, I never would have persued a relationship with him. That's why I told him from the onset that I would not tolerate infidelity. And now, here I am, tolerating it. This is his second time, first with me, but second time.
The feelings between he and C are resolved on her side, and he has no desire to be with her again, but family events are really awkward for me now. And he has unresolved issues with that relationship. He elevated it to such a level that he feels he can never be that close to someone again (he told me this, it broke my heart.)He's really closed to that possibility.<p>We both have complicated pasts. We both grew up in the church. Me- Reformed, Him - Lutheran. He was very religious until age 16, then he just quit church and ewnt on his way. He calls himself a believer, but I don't think he has the 'relationship', or that his heart belongs to Jesus. I have had a yo-yo relationship with my Lord, but in the last 4 years have come a long way back. It hurts me to think how I hurt my Lord in my years of wandering.
My H needs to give his heart to Christ, but he's real uneasy even talking about spiritual issues.He goes to church with us once in a while. He says he prays. He won't pray with me. That scares him.
I still feel third or fourth in his life. His work is still his first love. Our son is above me.
Today it just seems impossible. I think "he really shouldn't complain. I'm doing pretty good be him, for what he did to me." I have always bent over backwards for him. How far do I have to go? Am I being taken advantage of? I can't expect him to change, but if he never does, can I live with that?
Today, the answer is no.
What does that mean????

Hi TTGIR,<p>Isn't it amazing how people will say one thing..."I'd never put up with my spouse having an A"...until it actually happens to them. I remember saying the same things. <p>I know my wife is very glad that I chose to stay in our marriage, and I do believe that your H will be too. You've made a very courageous decision to work on your marriage. Knowing the pain of infidelity from your first M and from your H's actions prior to you two getting married.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>He has a pattern of lying and cheating that goes way, way back. Can he change? Am I stupid to think that he can? If I would have know about his involvement with C, I never would have persued a relationship with him. That's why I told him from the onset that I would not tolerate infidelity. And now, here I am, tolerating it. This is his second time, first with me, but second time. <hr></blockquote> All things are possible through Christ, so yes, I do believe that your H can change. I think that it would be "stupid" to think that YOU can change your husband... I believe that your H can change...and I think that you are trusting in Christ to do so...why else would you decide to stay in your marriage and work on rebuilding it?<p>I've found in my own life that I've drifted away from Christ from time to time... I do realize that when this happens, that its always ME that moves away. I'm sorry that you and your H aren't praying together... I do hope that you are continuing to pray for him.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I still feel third or fourth in his life. His work is still his first love. Our son is above me. <hr></blockquote> I've been there and done that. I now realize that Christ comes first, then my wife, then my kids, then my job. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Today it just seems impossible. I think "he really shouldn't complain. I'm doing pretty good be him, for what he did to me." I have always bent over backwards for him. How far do I have to go? Am I being taken advantage of? I can't expect him to change, but if he never does, can I live with that?
Today, the answer is no.
What does that mean????<hr></blockquote> I think that your feelings are very typical for us BS... but please don't fall for the "I'm better than my spouse because I'm not the one that strayed" line of thinking. Yes, your H hurt you in the most horrible way that another person can hurt another. But I'm sure that you've hurt him in other ways as well. We all hurt our spouses to some degree or another. For years I felt as if I was such a "chump" for staying with my wife. I felt that my wife "took advantage" of me. I always wanted her to change...and I tried to change her...but soon realized that I couldn't change her. Only you can decide when enough is enough. I understand how you can say that today, the answer is no. I had MANY days where I felt that I couldn't go on. As for what all of this means.... I think that you are feeling and reacting to a difficult situation in a perfectly 'normal' way. You are going to have good days and bad days.... right now, at this point, your bad days are most probably out numbering your good days. I know from my own experience that if you stay the course and continue to work on your marriage, that eventually your good days will start evening out with the bad... and eventually, your good days will far exceed your bad days. <p>Hang in there. You are doing fine. Please ask your H if he's gotten my e-mail. I will NOT beat him about the head and shoulders with "religion". <p>We're praying for you guys...
RIF90

It seems like every other day is a bad day- most of the time. I don't get that. I do find myself feeling a sense of failure on the bad days, like - if I was a stronger christian, I wouldn't feel this way. Or- I'm not trying hard enough. Or - I'm not trusting enough (God, that is.) And some of that is probably true. Seems like if I had Christ at the center of my life, and everything with Him was as it should be, there would be no bad days, I would be able to fogive my husband, and the OW, and graciously be the Proverbs wife my husband deserves. Surely this must be possible. I know christians who really seem to have it all together, and they face trials with boldness, and quiet reverence. I want this. But I don't know how to get there.<p>My H grew up in a church that taught relgion, not a relationship (with God),and that your religion is very personal- not to be shared. He has a hard time discussing anything spiritual with me. Praying together is something I would like to strive for. But I can't/won't push him into it. When he's ready......<p>Please don't for a second, thikn that I am minimizing my imperfections. I know there are many ways I have let my H down, and hurt him with my words and actions. I just never, ever imagined this kind of hurt would touch our lives. I'm doind my best to aviod all LB and meet his needs, despite my hurt and questions. It's hard to do it all. Some days I do better. But I still feel like he's not 100% back with me. He denies any more contact, and insists that it's over, but I don't see any 'fruit' yet.<p>I know I can't change anybody. I learned that in my first marriage. Only God can. In His time. I think He's trying to teach me to be patient.
Hard lesson!!!<p>I do have the power to say when enough is enough, and this is my decision: I will do my best to serve God first, and grow closer in my walk with Him. In doing this, I know that the bad habits I have will melt away, because they don't fit with the christian life. (work and time and trust)
My second priority is my H, and I will do whatever I can to meet his needs, avoid LB, and love him completely. If I know in my heart that I have done everything I can, rightly, with Christ as my guide, and my H strays again, that will be the end. If I have failed my H in some way, God will make that clear to me, and I will honestly acknowledge my shortcomings, and if in that my H fails, I will take responsibility for my contribution to a continued poor marraige, and try again.
Does this make sense?<p>He is off from his police job for 12 days. He took vacation. It will hopefully be a great 2 weeks for some serious rebuilding. He did get your email, but hasn't had time to respond. But he does intend to. Perhaps in the next few days.
Father's Day functions to attend...must go for now. <p>Pray continually....

Hi TTGIR,<p>I can definitely relate to how you're feeling on your bad days... I always thought that I wasn't being 'good enough', or that there was something wrong with me. All of these feelings are 'normal' and will fade as time passes. Christ never promises that we'll never have 'bad days' when we give our lives to Him... He just promises to be right there with us through the hard times. <p>It's so easy to compare ourselves with others. I would say that it seems that YOU are doing VERY WELL in facing your trial... You are in the process of "getting there"...<p>It takes time to see "fruit"... and you're right, it's very hard to NOT LB...especially when we dont' see any 'improvement'. But from my experience and from many others here at MB, I can say that it's well worth the effort.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If I know in my heart that I have done everything I can, rightly, with Christ as my guide, and my H strays again, that will be the end.<hr></blockquote> I feel the same way, but for me, I try to focus not on what might happen, but on where my relationship with Christ is and where my relationship with my wife is in the present. You may decide to "end" your marriage if your H strays again... but that hasn't happened yet. Focus on the good things (even if they are few and far between)...<p>I hope you guys have a good vacation together... try not to LB and try not to force the process... You are doing a great job with all of this.<p>Did you make a decision on whether or not to tell your parents or his parents? I'm looking forward to getting a reply from your H...<p>Take care,
RIF90

I'm not focused on "if he does this again, I'll..... It's just a decision I have arrived at in the process. I told hiim about this decision last night. He said that there was nothing to worry about, because it would never happen again. He's so sure of himself. I probably ought to find comfort in that, but the fact is, it scares me. I know his assurance isn't from a new found committment to God. He can't do this in his own strength, and if he tries, he's probably destined to fail Maybe not. There are a lot of 'secular' and luke-warm christians who do remain faithful....who knows.
I did change my decision. Regardless of the circumstances, I will not tolerate this again. Partly because I fully intend to live rightly. So there should be no atmosphere in our marriage that would lend itself to moral failure. <p>He 'picked' on me this morning before he left for work (911 center for 3 more days). I found a tape at a garage sale- Dobson's "Marriages that survived infidelity." I showed it to him, and he just rolled his eyes and laughed. I asked him what that was about, and he said he was just picking on me. He could tell I was hurt, so he said "sorry, I gotta go to work. Have a good day."
Yea, right. I have felt all along that he doesn't understand the magnitude of what he has done. He has 'glossed' over it on a number of occassions. I called him and told him (calmly) that if he wasn't ready to be serious about this, and if he was going to continue to do hurtful and insensitive things, that he should consider his options for living arrangements, because I don't want him here if he's not ready to do or is serious about the work. He told me it was a small joke, and that he said he was sorry, and didn't understand why I was upset. I told him that we need to talk about his feelings about how our recovery should go, and we need to do that tonight. He obviously has different ideas about it than I do. We have had no time to talk since last week Wednesday, when the rest of the truth came out.
I'm not bragging here, but I AM making a sincere effort, and I feel unappreciated and unbalanced by his efforts.
I will be patient. I'm perhaps not being as patient as other people would think I should be, but I'm being a whole lot more patient than I FEEL like being.
I got Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough" this weekend. Wow- that's a different approach than Harley's. More like what I feel like doing, that's for sure.
I am ok. Just frustrated.
H said he would email you. Probably won't be until wed. at the earliest. Our son's 2 yr pictures are tonight, and he has court tomarrow evening. Soon, though, I hope.

Hi TTGIR,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I'm not focused on "if he does this again, I'll..... It's just a decision I have arrived at in the process. I told hiim about this decision last night. He said that there was nothing to worry about, because it would never happen again. He's so sure of himself. I probably ought to find comfort in that, but the fact is, it scares me. <hr></blockquote> Like you, I arrived at the same decision... I'm glad that you aren't focusing on this. It will take time for you to take comfort in what your H tells you. My wife would tell me that she would never stray again... took me years to finally start believing her...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>He 'picked' on me this morning before he left for work (911 center for 3 more days). I found a tape at a garage sale- Dobson's "Marriages that survived infidelity." I showed it to him, and he just rolled his eyes and laughed. I asked him what that was about, and he said he was just picking on me. He could tell I was hurt, so he said "sorry, I gotta go to work. Have a good day."<hr></blockquote> You and your H must have been listening to me & my wife a few weeks ago!!! Yes, it's so hard when our WS say insensitive things to us... and then say that they were "just kidding", or "I didn't really mean anything by that...", or "can't you take a joke...", or "Are you still holding the A(s) over my head?", ect., ect.... Again, All completely 'normal'.... I will say that my wife and I are at a point where I'm NOT as sensitive about such comments. Again... it just takes time.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Yea, right. I have felt all along that he doesn't understand the magnitude of what he has done. He has 'glossed' over it on a number of occassions. I called him and told him (calmly) that if he wasn't ready to be serious about this, and if he was going to continue to do hurtful and insensitive things, that he should consider his options for living arrangements, because I don't want him here if he's not ready to do or is serious about the work. He told me it was a small joke, and that he said he was sorry, and didn't understand why I was upset.<hr></blockquote> I felt the same way until just a few weeks ago... it will take time to get over the hurt and pain of his betrayal...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> <hr></blockquote> I'm not bragging here, but I AM making a sincere effort, and I feel unappreciated and unbalanced by his efforts. I will be patient. I'm perhaps not being as patient as other people would think I should be, but I'm being a whole lot more patient than I FEEL like being. I got Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough" this weekend. Wow- that's a different approach than Harley's. More like what I feel like doing, that's for sure. I am ok. Just frustrated. Hey, you really should feel good about yourself!! You are doing a super job. And from what I've seen, you ARE being patient. I haven't read Dobson's book. I didn't like the SAA book as much as I did Torn Asunder... probably because the SAA book didn't seem to hold the WS as accountable for their actions as Torn Asunder. BTW, my wife just finished reading Torn Asunder and we are working through the work book together. Our MC is meeting with us monthly to go over the chapters in the work book and to keep us 'on track'... I'm finally starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>H said he would email you. Probably won't be until wed. at the earliest. Our son's 2 yr pictures are tonight, and he has court tomarrow evening. Soon, though, I hope.<hr></blockquote> Great! I'm looking forward to e-mailing with him... My wife said that she would like to e-mail with you... Don't know if I've said this or not, but I don't mind e-mailing your H, or you e-mailing my wife.... but I don't want to e-mail you... just a 'safety precaution'. I meet with my male friend that was the WS in his marriage and it's been so helpful to talk with him. It gives me a better perspective with how to talk with my wife...<p>Take care,
RIF90

Nice to hear I'm 'normal' in all of this. Really. Because I do have the tendancy to overreact to things. It's a character flaw that I am trying to correct, and this situation is a real test to that committment to change. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
KNowing that what I'm feeling and thinking is typical for a BS gives me some peace of mind.<p>Being as far along as you are in your recovery, "Love Must Be Tough" probably wouldn't speak to you as it did, me. It basically tells the BS this : with calmness and confidence, you confront the WS, give an ultimatum (It's me or her), and stick with that. It talks about the negative effects of blaming yourself, and excusing the WS's actions, and forgiving too quickly. Torn Asunder is an excellent book for understanding the process better. The Chapter on the infidels process was very hard for me to read. I cried through the whole thing. I could see every step taking place, not only in retrospect, but also actually seeing them together in my mind. <p>Do you still get the images of your wife and the OM together? How long is this going to haunt me? <p>I will email your wife. Same address?
I understand the need to keep things separate. My H and I have separate email accounts, and I have access to his. (and he, to mine, although he never looks in mine) It was an accountability thing. But I will not read what you and he talk about. I want him to feel 'safe' with you, even if he can't feel that way with me yet. Funny- you would think I'd be the one who feels unsafe.....
I do. But the only way to get there is through.

Hi TTGIR,<p>I don't think that you've 'overreacted' to anything. From what you've said, I'd say that you are reacting in a very positive way that protects you and shows that you care about your M.<p>Yes. I do still get images of my wife and OM together. Not sure if they will ever go away. The big difference for me now is the way that these images affect me. The images still bother me, but I'm not obsessing over them and I just tell myself that yes, this all happened, but that my wife is with me. My wife loves me. I'm in the process of forgiving my wife... so these images don't help our marriage. Not an easy thing to do, but I'm doing a better job of dealing with the images now than I was several months ago.<p>You can send my wife an e-mail at the same address (rif90@msn.com)... she will probably reply to you with her personal e-mail address... don't want to give it out to the world since it has her name on the account... <p>Take care,
RIF90 [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

TRYING TO GET IT RIGHT---
Hi! I just got here, I spend more time at famtoday.com, a local church extension. I visit here a lot for Dr H's wisdom, but I think I've read everything.
Let me give you my history:
Apr 5:Found h in compromising situation, believed lies that it was completely innocent, started working on Marriage on the Rock's advice, listened to some of the tapes together, began to change ME
May 11 [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] day before mother's day) h admitted to a single kiss with ow
May 13 [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] day after mother's day) ow's (sort-of)husband told me of affair. My h admitted to ons.
May 15: went to church, had honest conversation afterwards where I pleaded for all of the truth. H admitted to 3or 4 week affair.
May 18:New evidence brought about caused my h to break down and give me any and all details that I wanted to know.
Turns out the affair began Jan 18, Just days before I found out I was pregnant. We suspected I was, but didn't know for sure. H uses that as the excuse for the straw that broke the camel's back. We came into this marriage Feb99 with one child each, had one together Feb00, and decided Oct 01 that we did not want any more. H was "fixed" but we were unaware of risks that could cause pregnancy. As my luck runs, I got pregnant 2mo later.
I asked many, many details of the affair. I HAD to know. It was how I had to process. H hid behind counselor's suggestion that we not get into painful details, but finally agreed to answer anything I asked with honesty. And he did. Some, I shouldn't have asked, other I'm glad I did. I have been able to move beyond seeing them in bed together, and only a small part of me hurts when we are together and something pops in my head, like, I know how he learned that move. It hurts badly to know your spouse has a new technique that you have to live with because you know you didn't teach it to him. It's probably the only thing about them in the act that I haven't been able to swallow. But, when those moments come up, even in the middle of making love, I pray to God to help me enjoy the love we are sharing and put thoughts behind me before I ruin something good.
I feel like you probably do or will... I have no self-esteem left with my body. I'm due in 2 months, and I don't feel he desires me like he used to. This is probably pretty normal, but under the given circumstances, it's hard to take.
Let me tell you this, MarriageBuilders and the forums here and Family Today have helped me be strong. There's a lot more people out there than I realized going thru the same thing. I was amazed at how much it happens. My best help came from reading all of DrHarley's advice and his book, His Needs, Her Needs, other books such as Love is a Decision, and Power of a Praying Wife. These gave me lots of insight to how God wanted me to deal with my situation. I would have never stayed. Or at least I always knew I wouldn't. Had it not been for the many people who believe God wants us to try to work on any trial for the good of the marriage, I would have believed there was no way to put this behind and feel secure again. If your h is repentive, which means has turned away from the sin completely, and is working with you to make things better, God wants you to hold your h up as he gets right with Him. Walking away from my h would have led to further sin and destruction in his life, because I would not have been there to help him resist the temptations.
Good luck to you and feel free to email if you need to talk further with someone with exactly the same situation. I don't have all of the answers, but I believe I am further along than I would have expected with all the help I was able to dig up.
My email is dumasdoithome@aol.com.

We talked last evening.
He lied again.
I told him (and you) before the start of this last rotation that I felt she would try to contact him in some way.
Two nights ago, I asked him if she had contacted him in any way in the last 2 weeks. He paused and said "I don't think so" BIG RED FLAGS all over that one!
So I asked him last eve, how many times have you had any kind of conact with her since May 26? He was quiet for a moment, then said that she left a letter on his car about 1 1/2 weeks ago (the start of his last rotation). I asked where the latter was- he shreaded it. Why? He wanted to be done with it. What did it say? Pretty much that it was over- can't really remember.
If the latter said , in her writting "it's over...." that could have been a huge comfort to me. I asked him if he ever thought of that simple fact. No, he hadn't, he just wanted to be rid of it. I asked him when he was going to stop thinking just about himself, and think about my feelings and needs- he said he was.
Then he has the gall to say he really didn't see the letter as 'contact'.
SO I, once again as I have many times before, defined 'contact'for him. I feel like I am dealing with a 4 year old child.
He lied about the contact. And I believe he is lying about the content of the letter. I'm angry at him for lying to me again. I asked him again last eve, so when is the honesty really going to start?
I am really tired of this.
The actions don't match the words. And the words are starting to sound hollow, because his actions just don't support them. Why do the lies continue. I haven't left yet, but I will if this keeps on. I will not tolerate this. Period.
I asked him about his commitment to Jesus, and he said this: "I have enough to deal with right now, that's not too high on my list" THIS should be his first priority, and I told him that (gently) but he really didn't respond.
I asked him if he would allow me to tell our fathers, so they could support him and help him through this. He said no. He doesn't want anyone else to know, that he couldn't face people if they knew what he did.
I will talk about all of this with our MC on Thursday. But that's so far away.
How long will I put up with his games? Not long. In fact, I will not accept one more lie. One more lie, and I'm done.
I don't care what he has to 'work through' or 'deal with', if he is unwilling to be honest with me, there is no hope, we have nothing worth staying for, and it's only a matter of time before he goes back to her, or finds someone new. Only with complete honesty can we move forward. Maybe I'm placing conditions here, I guess I think there needs to be some. One is- no contact, two is complete honesty. I can't take being lied to about this anymore. He's still protecting that relationship at my expense, and I will not tolerate that.

Hi TTGIR,<p>I'm so sorry that you are hurting again and I can definitely relate to your need for honesty.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I asked where the latter was- he shreaded it. Why? He wanted to be done with it. What did it say? Pretty much that it was over- can't really remember. If the latter said , in her writting "it's over...." that could have been a huge comfort to me. I asked him if he ever thought of that simple fact. No, he hadn't, he just wanted to be rid of it. I asked him when he was going to stop thinking just about himself, and think about my feelings and needs- he said he was.<hr></blockquote> I know that you see this as a "lie" and another betrayal...and to some extent, it is. But do you realize how easy it would have been for your H to just say that there was absolutely NO contact? He could have lied to you again and you most probably would have never even known about the letter. I agree that your H should have told you about the letter immediately after he received it. There are always multiple decisions that we as individuals have to make. I do believe that your H probably thought that he was making a 'good' decision by shredding the letter... He knows that he's hurt you and doesn't want to hurt you any more by showing you a letter from the OW. From a BS perspective, I'd have to agree with you that this was a 'bad' decision in not immediately telling you and then sharing the letter with you. As an 'outsider' looking in and not caught up in the emotions, I'd have to say that yes, your H hurt you by his actions, but it doesn't appear that he INTENTIONALLY tried to lie to you about any of this... remember, he's having to learn how to relate with you in a new and different way as well. It's going to take time...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Then he has the gall to say he really didn't see the letter as 'contact'. SO I, once again as I have many times before, defined 'contact'for him. I feel like I am dealing with a 4 year old child. He lied about the contact. And I believe he is lying about the content of the letter. I'm angry at him for lying to me again. I asked him again last eve, so when is the honesty really going to start?
I am really tired of this.<hr></blockquote> He he he... I can definitely relate to the "4 year old child" analogy... It's so frustrating to have to keep going over the same stuff, but again, it's all part of the process. You have every right to be angry with your H. Your feelings are all very correct and 'normal'. I just want you to try and see this incident from your H's perspective.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>The actions don't match the words. And the words are starting to sound hollow, because his actions just don't support them. Why do the lies continue. I haven't left yet, but I will if this keeps on. I will not tolerate this. Period.<hr></blockquote> It took several months before my wife's words matched her actions... be patient... You don't have to immediately believe what your H tells you... Remember, you should acknowledge what your H says, then look for the actions to back it up. No where in that last statement does it say to TRUST what your H says... For me, this was how I learned to trust what my wife said to me... it took a LOT of time and patience... Eventually, my wife learned that she could trust ME in my responses to her answers.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I asked him about his commitment to Jesus, and he said this: "I have enough to deal with right now, that's not too high on my list" THIS should be his first priority, and I told him that (gently) but he really didn't respond. <hr></blockquote> Realize that he's probably not feeling too close to the Lord right now... Like everything else, you can't make him get closer to Christ... It might be better to phrase your questions/statements to him regarding his relationship with Christ to... "I love you and I'm praying for you." Try not to 'pressure' him... because he is going to see your questions/statements as manipulative and controlling.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I asked him if he would allow me to tell our fathers, so they could support him and help him through this. He said no. He doesn't want anyone else to know, that he couldn't face people if they knew what he did. <hr></blockquote> In other words, your H is ashamed of what he's done to himself, the marriage and to you, right? You could ask him in a loving way if he's more concerned with healing the marriage and protecting you, or if he's more concerned with hiding his shame and protecting HIS feelings. I know that this is most probably going to be a LB, but at some point, your H is going to have to suck it up and "do the right thing"... which in my book from a BS perspective, means putting the BS feelings and the marriage over his own feelings. I'd recommend talking with your MC before you do anything...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>How long will I put up with his games? Not long. In fact, I will not accept one more lie. One more lie, and I'm done. <hr></blockquote> Believe me, I know exactly how you feel!!! And there's nothing wrong with your feelings. I'm sure not going to tell you that you should accept one more lie if that is what you've decided. I can honestly say that I lost count of the number of times that my wife lied to me... I used to say the exact same things... 'one more lie and I'm outta here!'... after countless lies, and all of the pain, I'm still glad that I stayed the course... I'd hate to think where I'd be right now if I'd followed through after "one more lie"...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I don't care what he has to 'work through' or 'deal with', if he is unwilling to be honest with me, there is no hope, we have nothing worth staying for, and it's only a matter of time before he goes back to her, or finds someone new. Only with complete honesty can we move forward. Maybe I'm placing conditions here, I guess I think there needs to be some. One is- no contact, two is complete honesty. I can't take being lied to about this anymore. He's still protecting that relationship at my expense, and I will not tolerate that. <hr></blockquote> I can feel your hurt and pain and I'm sorry that you are going through this... I do hope that you can see that your H is trying... It's going to take time for him to feel comfortable in communicating with you. Remember, Affairs are built on lies and deceit... If you'll take the focus off of what your H SAYS to you and put more focus on what he DOES, then I think that you will have a better perspective on his "lies". It hurts. It's NOT fair. Only you can decide when you've had enough. <p>I still think that you are doing a great job in dealing with all of this. Hang in there and let us know how the MC session goes...<p>Take care,
RIF90

TTGIT,
Your initial post has me spooked. Those are the same timeframes of my W's A. I know the odds are a million to one but........... Are you in southern California? <p>Sorry had to ask. I've wanted to call the OMW but haven't been able to do it as of yet. My W and I are in recovery and I'm afraid by calling her things will blow up in my face because I don't know how OMW will react. It could throw them back together.Having said that I think she deserves to know.

cwmac- I live in the northern mid-west. ABout as opposite of Southern California as one can get. WE have SEASONS where I live !!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]
Our new pastor came from Chino Valley, though.<p>
Yes, he could have lied about the letter all together. He did, for a week and a half. I knew there was going to be contact, so I kept asking him. He got the letter, he read it, he destroyed it. He knew it was contact. He lied about it. It was intentional. Period. He talked about the content of the letter last eve, that she startde by saying she wished things had worked out differently...blah,blah, blah, that she was going on with her life and wouldnt see him anymore. I feel there was some embelishment on my H's part, to "make it say" what he thought I would have wanted it to say. But, I guess I just have to take his word for it. He promised to tell me of any contact (which I once again defined for him) immediately, in the future. <p>I do try to see things from his perspective. I wish I could get inside his mind so I could understand what he's thinking and why. I understand the sense of shame and guilt, and his desire to put this in the past. Fact is, he created this reality for us, now we both have to live with it. It will never just 'go away' like he wants it to. The only way that would ever be close to reality is if we split up. This is our life now, by his free choice. What either of us wants doesn't matter. This is what we have.<p>I pray for him every day, several times. I have STormie O'martian's booklet of prayers that goes with the book "The Power of a Praying wife". That helps focus me a little better. And I do tell him once in a while that I'm praying for him.<p>Taking my focus off of what he says and putting it on what he does....big jump.
There doesn't seem to be a lot of 'action' yet. Many of my EN continue to go unmet. He doesn't share his feelings- any of them, about anything. I don't see any 'fruit' yet. Maybe it's too early. Maybe I'm expecting too much. How is it, that he does the damage, and I have to be the strong one, because he's too overwhemed by his own weakness right now to do what he ought to. This just isn't right. I completely disagree with this philosophy, and whoever came up with it. It's a crutch that society and the christian community have accepted as 'the way it is', and I reject that. It allows the assialant to play the victim's role, and forces the victim to make ammends. No way. I won't do it that way. I'm not letting him off that easy.<p>I'm not saying I won't do my part ( what I believe is may part) I'll continute to grow in my relationship with my Lord,and I will do my best to lovingly meet my H's needs. But I will in no way allow him to play the victim in all of this. God is a God of justice. He holds people accountable for their actions. It's not just to punish the victim for the crime committed against them. <p>Ok, I'm going off here...
Tomarrow is MC day....

Hi TTGIR,<p>I'm sorry if it sounded like I was making excuses for your H on your agreement for no contact. I understand completely your feelings and yes... your H lied to you about the letter and you have every right to be angry with him about this. I wasn't, nor would I ever try to tell you that what you are feeling right now isn't 'right'... or that you shouldn't be angry when your H lies to you.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>...Fact is, he created this reality for us, now we both have to live with it. It will never just 'go away' like he wants it to. The only way that would ever be close to reality is if we split up. This is our life now, by his free choice. What either of us wants doesn't matter. This is what we have.<hr></blockquote> It's so horrible that one person would make choices that affect both marriage partners like this... and yes, I agree that this is where your marriage is right now at this moment. I understand your feelings and have felt the same way. But please realize that you don't have to stay right where you are for the rest of your lives... Both of you have decided that you want to make your marriage better (...and yes, I know that YOU are probably working harder to reach that goal than your H is... All I can say is keep doing what you're doing... in the end, your H will come around).<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Taking my focus off of what he says and putting it on what he does....big jump. <hr></blockquote> Yes it is a big jump.... but for me, I got so tired of having my wife lie to me that I just found it easier to just accept what she told me (neither believing or not believing) and watching what she did to see if it was true or not... kept me from being hurt by her lies. Eventually, she started to feel comfortable enough with me to start telling me the truth because she realized that I wasn't going to "blow up" at her... Really, this was about ME, and not my wife. I couldn't force her to tell the truth... I could only control how I reacted to her statements (whether it was a lie or the truth).<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>How is it, that he does the damage, and I have to be the strong one, because he's too overwhemed by his own weakness right now to do what he ought to. This just isn't right. I completely disagree with this philosophy, and whoever came up with it. It's a crutch that society and the christian community have accepted as 'the way it is', and I reject that. It allows the assialant to play the victim's role, and forces the victim to make ammends. No way. I won't do it that way. I'm not letting him off that easy.<hr></blockquote> I'm right there with you on this statement!!! You are 100% correct. It isn't fair, it isn't 'right'... but as someone posted here... do you want to be "right" or do you want a truly loving, intimate marriage with your H? I would caution you to not get caught up in the "it's all his fault and I'm gonna make him pay..." game. I've tried that and it only lengthens the process. There's absolutely NOTHING WRONG with feeling this way. In fact, this line of thinking is one of the things that angered me so much about my own situation. You need to recognize this anger and hurt, then deal with it in a godly way... Once you realize the hurt and deal with your anger, then you can continue to focus on strengthening your marriage. I know from talking with my wife that she sure doesn't feel like she's "gotten off easy" in all of this... <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>...But I will in no way allow him to play the victim in all of this. God is a God of justice. He holds people accountable for their actions. It's not just to punish the victim for the crime committed against them.<hr></blockquote> Yes God will hold each of us accountable for our actions... I know that my sins are just as evil and horrible in God's eyes as the sin of adultery... <p>Recognize your hurt, deal with your anger, keep posting and venting... hope all goes well with your MC tomorrow.<p>Take care,
RIF90

<p>[ June 21, 2002: Message edited by: sadprincess ]</p>

You must have mis-read something. I haven't yet forgiven him. <p>MC was horrible. He sat there and told the MC how he and I have NOTHING in common. Then he proceeded to talk about how he had things in common with his lover.
I really don't see the point right now of seeing anything positive. I feel like I'm wasting my time here (at home) and here (at MB) everything is against me. I have nothing to work with and little to hope for. According to him, our marriage is and was full of problems from the start,
He will never EVER be happy with me. I can see that clearly now. <p>I'm really upsat.
I don't know where to turn.
I may not come back here.
Sorry for wasting everybody's time.
Try to help people who actually can be hapled, ok?

<p>[ June 21, 2002: Message edited by: sadprincess ]</p>

Hi TTGIR,<p>I am so sorry that your H responded the way he did in your MC... <p>Sadprincess is right, this is just one of those huge dips on the rollercoaster ride of recovery.<p>It sounds like your H is still in the fog over the OW and from what you described, it sounds like he's still trying to work through his hurt and anger. I know that it's hard for you to see this, but your H does have issues from your M that are causing him to feel that his only 'way out' is to run to the OW. As much as I hate to say this, he is entitled to his feelings. Doesn't make it right (feelings for the OW), and it is so very hurtful to you and the M when he shares those feelings with you.<p>Did your H mention any specifics as to why he was not happy in the M? Did your H say that he didn't want to work on the M? <p>You are at another decision point... given what you learned in your MC session, what do YOU want? Are you still willing to continue to work on your M? There's nothing that your H told you in your MC session that can't be overcome... My wife told me some terrible, hurtful things when I first found out... it's taken a ton of hard work and lots of pain, but I can honestly say that we've worked through all of that and you and your H can too.<p>Don't give up now. You need to process all of this even if you decide to end the marriage. If you run away from all of this, it will just follow you to your next relationship.<p>Again, I'm so sorry for the pain that you are going through.... try to calm down and realize that what happened in your MC session is just a small "bump" in the road. You CAN recover from this!<p>Let us know how you're doing... We'll be praying for you.<p>RIF90

I got up this morning feeling like a ton of bricks had landed on my shoulders. My mind is going fuzzy form all the negative emotions. I can't finish thoughs. I my spaech is slurred and unclear. I feel, for lack of a better term, weird. <p>Specifics....what's wrong in our marriage. Where to start? We have nothing in commmon, NOTHING! Just ask my H. We disagree about something in just about any topci you could bring up. Which is probably true for most couples. The problem we have is that we aren't able to discuss things the way most people do. He doesn't talk about his feelings- never has. Not with me. He internalizes everything, then if something really starts to bug him, I get a real negative, critical approach from him, and it's hard to respond positively when you're being attacked. I tried early on to work out some compromises, but his pat answer is "YOU knew I was this way when we got married." -Implying nothing's gonna change. I'm no saint. Don't get me wrong. I don't take criticism well. I have never had self confidence,and when I think I'm working hard at something, or doing it right, and somebody (H) comes along and tells me I've got it all wrong, I tend to take it really personally. I get upset with myself (not him), and am hard on myself (not him). Then he gets all upset and shuts down.
This was our pattern initially. Not so much in the last year. I thought I was getting better at my reactions to him things.
We're both stubborn. We both have ideals about what's right. I guess it's my duty as a christian wife to submit to my husband and shut my mouth unless he's going against morals and values. I've been pretty independent since I was 9. Had to be.
So conflict resolution and the ability to agree to disagree, sharing feelings, and respect are our issues. He has never respected me.
Saying the things he did yesterday at MC, I wondered all night last night and all day today why he even married me.<p>And then there's the big question. I've been married twice. Both of my husbands cheated on me. What's wrong with me? Why can't men be faithful to me? What am I doing wrong? No, I refuse to take responsibility for my H's choices. Why am I even alive, if I serve no good purpose except to fail in my marriage, and create an environment in which my husband would sin? Isn't that like being a stumbling block?
My H has never respected me. His actions communicate that he feels I have no value. How does one deal with this?
How does a person who lost all self respect at age 9, and never finds it again, because all of life is covered with one bad thing after another?
I asked my husband tonight about getting ECT(electro convulsive therapy) They do it for psych patients to 'shock' them out of depression, etc into a better mood by erasing some of the memory (through induced convulsions) Obviously, I would have to wait until my baby is born. But he says "But there are so many good memories, too.
I'm thinking real hard to come up with one. ...............................................
...............................................
....................................still thinking.......................................
My life has been unpleasant for a long time. Now I understand that there are many people out there who have it worse than me. I'm not minimizing their experience. This is my life. I'm stuck with it. It will probably continue to be full of heart ache and disappointment. I don't expect it to be easy or problem free. But it's been hell.<p>
Does he want to continue to work on our marriage? Yes. DO I beleive he is sincere? Yes. Does that make it easier. Perhaps a little. His words yesterday were very hurtful. He doesn't understand why I'm so upset by them. I just never thought things were as bad as he obviously thinks they were/are.
It leads me to believe there is no hope. We have nothing positive to start with, all we have are issues and problems, and now this affair.
I feel defeated. I feel empty. I feel useless. I feel used. I feel rejected. I feel misunderstood. I feel like God doesn't care. He's over estimated me. This IS more than I can handle. I can't take any more.

TTGIR,<p>I feel so bad you are feeling so down and hurt at the moment.
At least he opened up yesterday and let out his true feelings. Well - all negative-. Isn't that though what you complained about in your M- his not sharing feelings? He will need time to learn to express them in less hurtful way. But you say he honestly wants to rebuild your M. It is a start. And he is in MC.<p>I relate to you so much about the criticism and destroying of self esteem.<p>Do not give up. Not just to rescue the M, but for yourself. You will feel better about yourself in the future no matter what the outcome of the M crisis if you will be proud of the actions you took now.
This how I see it.
And yes it is terrible rollercoaster for me as well. Especially if I have to guess the feelings and responses, not learn about them.
Hope you feel better and stronger tomorrow.<p>FBOW