It would be wise to convey to her in a calm and rational way that her wish of keeping her A enabling friends and xOM as 'friend' is unrealistic and will not work period. Tell her that you will not force her to chose but that you will eventually decide on a plan of action to protect yourself from the pain and hurt that the A and her reluctance to end it, are still causing you. STOP THERE and leave her alone to think on what you just said.

If you are to going to survive the rollercoaster ride, you'll need to learn how to detach with love. How do you do that? by letting go of her and realizing that, for the time being, you are only married to her on paper and that she will again become your W when she committs to no contact with OM and marital recovery.

AVOID LOVE BUSTERS (ANGRY OUTBURSTS,SELFISH DEMANDS, DISRESPECTFUL JUDGEMENTS, AND ANNOYING HABITS) AT ALL COSTS SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY DON'T WORK. Be a true and classy gentleman at all times with her because you will be the ultimate beneficiary no matter what the outcome of your M is.

One last thing is not to persue her in any way shape or form. It seems that the more the BS persues the WS, the less the WS wants to come back to the BS and the M. As much as you love her, she must learn that nobody (except God) is indispensable. I'm not saying to ignore her and leave every time she comes into a room, but to live your life to the fullest and not badger her with questions as to where she's going or where she has been, etc. Hopefully she'll see that you are confident man that will not be broken by her loony tune behavior and that it is very likely that she'll lose you unless she recommitts to the M.

Good luck and God bless.

I agree with toomuchcoffeeman's strategy, sounds pretty effective...

It may seem beside the point considering all the problems to solve, but here's how to take deep, "cleansing" breaths throughout the day....

Breathe in throught the nose, hold a few seconds, then open your eyes and exhale through the mouth. Smile.

(Worked for me on airplane, I'm terrified, stayed calm) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Thanks all!

This weekend is going to be very difficult because every day has plans with this group that were made before discovery day. I would like to withdraw myself from all of the plans except the graduation party because of family coming as well. Would this be LBing?

I had a meeting after work, and she left message that she was out with group again when I just got home. Before I left for my meeting, I told her I didn't want to go on Friday if he was going (the subject came up while checking email), and she pouted. I said goodbye nicely and left for the meeting without showing any weakness.

The thing is, I can tell she is checking his email from this computer, or he has been over, so I am pretty sure it is still going on or there are still feelings. I cannot stay in this any longer if I'm going to be treated like this. I think I will try to meet with a lawyer on Friday and go over things.

I think she isn't really taking me seriously, and maybe a plan B will shock her into what she may lose. OM is unemployed, while I have a very good job. Clearly, he meets attention needs, while I'm probably seen as a provider.

OM had sent a very apologetic email to me a few days ago, and I replied expressing how much hurt, sadness, disappointment, that I had gone through and that things would never be the same. However, since nothing was said until after I discovered, I highly doubt sincerity of apologies of either OM or WW.

Any advice?

Doing plan B to 'shock' your WW into what she may lose is not the right reason for implementing it. Plan B is to protect your remaining love for her by taking yourself out of the picture and letting OM take care of all her EN's. By dumping all the responsabilities on OM to fullfil ALL her EN's, you will HOPEFULLY be injecting a toxic dose of reality into the A.

If you let your emotions dictate your course of action, then your actions will continually be contradicting your objectives. It's like investing in the stock market by letting your emotions dictate your decisions as to when to buy, hold and sell and expect to profit from such a ludicrous approach. Your WW's emotions are what got her into the A and it's your emotions that can sabotage your efforts for marital recovery. So I suggest that you exercise PATIENCE and EMOTIONAL DETACHMENT because they may be the keys to overcome this ordeal.

Good luck and God bless.

It's been a while since I responded, and I just don't know what to think anymore. This past weekend we had tickets for events on Friday and Saturday that we had for quite some time. I elected to not attend and she went with the group of friends. On Sunday, we entertained, and I helped to host because much family was over.

Problem is, contact is still continuing. She has been chatting online, and right now she is at friends' house again. I elected to stay home again.

She says she won't be happy if we don't socialize anymore. I say that it is not a lack of wanting socialization, but one person I do not wish to socialize with prevents me from going along. I know this is upsetting to her, but it will be upsetting to me to go along and pretend nothing is wrong.

How do you approach this issue without being demanding? She has her own rights to socialize with this group, but I don't want to be involved in all of this. I've been through too much. The thing is, it seems as this will be a huge sticking point.

I don't want to go on like this forever. All I really want is for her to want to be with me. I don't want any conditional love, which is how I feel. I feel that if I don't go socialize, I am not wanted. If that's the way it is, it's fine, and I could move on if I knew that. However, how can I let her know that I love her no matter what, but I cannot exist under certain conditions?

Any help or advice??????

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
All I really want is for her to want to be with me. I don't want any conditional love, which is how I feel. I feel that if I don't go socialize, I am not wanted. If that's the way it is, it's fine, and I could move on if I knew that. However, how can I let her know that I love her no matter what, but I cannot exist under certain conditions?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You simply writte a letter telling her that you love her very much and only want to make her happy and since you can no longer stand the pain from her present choices, you'll remove yourself from her life so that she can have what she wants without you being a stumbling block to said wants. In other words, plan B.

Some wise old MB'er said that many BS wait too long in plan A until there isn't any love left for their WS and thus make the work of marital recovery a much harder endeavor than it would have been if they had gone to plan B before the bank was emptied. Don't let that happen to you.

" contact is still continuing. She has been chatting online, and right now she is at friends' house again. I elected to stay home again."

What you have is a wife who has no respect for her marriage to you. She does not
care that she has hurt you. Her attitude and actions confirm this. The problem is that you
have gone along with enabling her to continue this nonsense. There is/was no consequences (conditions that she needed to fulfill to be allowed to stay in the marriage) after you discovered that she was having an affair. What she is doing is playing you. She needs to get a reality check that you are not going to be the background to her continuing affair. She needs to see that you are serious about moving on without her and that you will no longer stay married to a wife that continues to be deceitful and break the marriage vows.

Thanks for your input, but with all due respect, how do I realistically state that there will be consequences without presenting an ultimatum? I talked with her this evening and she expressed that she's not happy that I'm not going along and she feels guilty when I'm not there. She also doesn't want to give up the support group that she states the other friends (who weren't part of the affair) are.

I understand this. I don't want to force her to make a choice, but at the same time, I can't just go along, lose all of my self respect, and spend my whole life being jealous by pretending nothing is wrong. I've expressed these thoughts to her.

I can tell she won't be happy because she'll see me as forcing her to give up her friends for the sake of the marriage.

Ultimatums usually don't work, and that is how this situation is seen in her eyes. I want US to both be happy together, but how do you negotiate this? I know that she made a poor choice in having an affair, but that doesn't give me the right to say "Do this or else..." At the same time, how do I not get walked on?

Ultimatums!!! We deal with them everyday...they aren't so bad. ie..I don't go to work...I don't get paid! Is that an ultimatum or is it a result of my actions within a set of paramaters?

Some things you can live with comfortable, some you can't. I see nothing wrong with stating my limits. I am not demanding that another lives within my limits...but only stating that if "x" happens...then "y" will surely follow. If someone is determined to do "x", and I can not accept "x"...then that is as much my right as it is theirs. jmho

Cerri suggested having your wife counsel with Jenn at MB, which is a great idea. But if she won't do that, would you consider calling the Harley's here yourself? I see lots of confusion in your post (totally understandable), and uncertainty as to the best way to proceed.

I agree that your wife's current behavior is unacceptable, but if you still want your marriage, focusing on her behavior and the unfairness of it all won't help you achieve your goal. You need a plan. Surviving An Affair lays it all out nicely, but there is no substitute for the Harley's expert advice. Can you afford a few phone sessions? Please think about it.

Martes

Hey bro. I have found myself in a similar situation to yours...I found out about 18 months ago.

Listen, I think you need to deal with your feelings about this more honestly. I mean, you are and should be feeling a certain amount of anger, outrage and hurt.

I can only say that she is behaving the way she is because she is not hearing that from you. For you to stay home while she goes out is a very weak thing to do. (I'm not name-calling, as I acted much the same way).

And contrary to her objections, *you* will never feel right until her contact with him ceases. And when it does, she'll fuss and complain and call you controlling or jealous or whatever. But, at this point you really need to put your feelings first.

I can tell you that after my wife's affair, she agreed to "limited" contact (the OM goes to our church!) but that has gradually increased. They claim that it is only a friendship--and that may well be--but I can tell you I have learned that I don't have it in me to tolerate it. And I have (FINALLY!) come to the realization, that I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO. And, for what it's worth, I think neither should you.

Good luck.

Once again, she is going out. She called and said she feels like a jerk right when she left the house. She says she wants me to go, so she makes plans hoping I'll give in and that she wants it both ways. Unfortunately, she goes because she made the plans to go. I cannot give in on this. I'll do things, but not if OM is there.

I don't feel like I'm being weak at all by doing this. In fact, I think that it takes a lot of strength for a 23 year old to stay at home on weekend evenings.

I feel like I'm going through a period where I'm backing off and just letting what happens, happen. I guess I'm moving towards plan B now. I'm treating her very respectfully, but I'm not going to let her walk on me like I did during my attempted plan A.

If this all persists, I know my place and know that I'd probably be better off without the marriage. If it doesn't, we will finally begin working on things. I guess I'm putting the ball in her court by finally taking a stand.

She is still her own person and has free will to do what she wants. I don't see how being authoritarian will make her want to be with me. However, I'm not going to go crawling to her and beg her to be with me.

In apology email to me, OM stated that he would withdraw from group of friends so that I wouldn't have to, but that is not happening. It's not surprising. I really don't care too much anymore.

I have actually been much happier and productive over the last week than I have been in months because I feel like this situation is almost over. I would like my marriage to work, but not at the expense of my own dignity. I'm feeling much more confident and I'm really not worried about the future anymore.

Hi hoping4best,
I feel for you. Your wife's attachment to this "group of friends" astounds me. No, you can't make her do anything, but she should WANT to fix things....and I believe that no contact is the only way to fix things. She is either in a fog, or being incredibly stubborn. I think that if my fiance had still wanted to go out drinking with "the group from work" (which is how our mess started) I probably would have kicked him out and told him to have fun, and hope it's worth him losing me! (But again, we are not married yet...so different in that aspect as well.) I insisted he stop hanging out with the group, and he agreed.

OM may be out of the picture, but it is the 'group' that has become the new OP, and just like a WS that's 'in love' with an OP, she is 'in love' with the 'group'.

Acting authoritarian or dictatorial is always counterproductive. But being honest with her and telling her that you are reaching a point where you no longer will want to be married to her is NOT being authoritarian, because you are simply stating a fact to her. If she realizes that she would rather have you than the 'group' then she will work with you to find something else that will substitute the 'group' and be enthusiastically agreed by both of you (POJA). If you do not communicate with her your feelings about the future of the M, then you are guilty of not being honest with her.

OM is not out of the picture. He is still going with group of friends as well. He had sent an apology email to me about a week after I found out about A, saying that he would withdraw from group of friends because I deserved to have them as friends more than him. Funny how there is so much talk and so little action.

I had a talk with W about 2 hours ago and really laid out the situation for her, because she may not have understood my behavior last night. I told her why I was withdrawing. She said she wanted me to go along with her because it is one of the other friend's birthday. (I feel bad for missing out on that, because it is an innocent friend who would probably be apalled at what was going on.)

Basically, I told her that I didn't want to be strung along and I just want to know how this is going to work out so I can get on with my life. I told her that I've been happy that I haven't been going because I feel like I'm taking a stand here. She replied that she is happy as well (we are getting along better for some reason), but she wishes I would go. I told her I can't go and be friends with OM because OM basically showed how much my friendship meant by having an A with my W. She said she didn't expect me to be friends with him and that he knows I hate him. That said, I replied that I don't hate him, but I hate what he did, and there are consequences to actions. Eventually people will wise up and ask why I'm not there and the truth will eventually be revealed to all if marriage ends anyways. What I'm trying to do is to force her hand and either she'll really work on things or we'll just call it quits. Either way is fine at this point. We're at a crossroads, what she does now will cause me to either choose plan A or plan B.

During conversation W broke down and said that before A, she was lonely and that OM was there for her and they both knew it was a mistake. Basically, I realize that I wasn't perfect husband beforehand. I told her that I realize my mistakes and would try my best and that I now know what I need to do to meet her needs, but I need the opportunity. She said she still loves OM and me and that by not going along, I was driving her towards him. I told her that was fine, because OM is not going to make her happy anyways. Basically we didn't end on too good of note and she is out again. I'll find something else to do. If I lose a few weekends of fun, oh well, at least I have my dignity...

Thoughts just popped into my head. I think that A's happen because of WS unhappiness in marriage and that an A will perceivably anger the BS so much that they will end the marriage. Statistically, most relationships started in an affair don't last, and I think that is why. Dishonesty just isn't a good foundation for relationships.

I'm feeling so much better because we're closer to a resolution. What that resolution is isn't known yet, but I want to be going somewhere, whether it is starting over, or working on the marriage. For the last eight months, I have felt like the captain of a sailboat in the middle of the ocean with no wind to drive the boat in any direction.

Any suggestions on how to actually get no-contact to work? OM lives in town. Do I ask for it, or does an ultimatum actually need to be presented?

I really hate to present an ultimatum, but as long as he is in the picture, it seems like she'll just pay lip service to working on things.

Is there really any hope, or should I just push for separation and let the thing work itself out. I feel like if I go that road, I don't think there is any turning back. Part of my reluctance to do anything is because of the permanance...

What it comes down to is whether her marriage to you is more important than socializing
with the group and the OM. Due to the fact that she committed adultery you have a right to
tell her under what conditions you are willing to continue the marriage. It is up to her to agree or not agree. Her decision and actions will show you how committed she is to the marriage and whether she is indeed remorseful. You are not giving her an ultimatum. What you are asking for is for her to show you respect and to show you that you can trust her again.

You can not 'make' no contact work because SHE DOESN'T WANT TO end her contact with OM and is probably using the group gatherings as excuse to meet with him.

You are taking a stand but so is she. In other words, it's a stand off.

You have choices and among those choices are to stay or leave. No matter which of the two you decide to take, there is no guarantee that it will stop her from continuing contact with OM. It's a gamble no matter which way you go. You have to weigh the pros and cons of each way and decide which is the best way for you at this moment in time.

One last thing is don't resort to ultimatums unless you are willing to follow thru and live with the consequences. Otherwise you lose credibility in her eyes.

<small>[ September 09, 2002, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Made no-contact ultimadum today. Bank statement with purchase from Frederick's of Hollywood showed up. In checkbook, she had written this purchase as being from Wal-Mart (On a side note, I am astonished at the carelessness.). I know that purchase wasn't made with me in mind <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> , and the date is around a month ago, a few days before I discovered proof of the A. She said on D-Day that affair ended in May, but that obviously isn't true.

She stated that she just bought bras there, but those purchases are always made from discount or department stores. I asked for the receipt to confirm what she bought. She says it's gone. I may call the store to see what exactly was purchased.

Also, a few nights ago, she was reading email which I suspected was from OM and she was crying as she read it. Either way, it does not signal the affair was over in May. Tonight, she confirmed that the email was from him. I asked to see it and her reply to it, but was told that it was "personal".

I told her to cut contact with him or find another place to stay because I could not deal with this anymore. The last thing I want is for her to stay here and rip out my heart day after day. She can have a few days to decide this.

As I type this, she's sleeping in my bed. She asked me if she should sleep in another room and I told her I didn't care, she could sleep where she wants. I'm very confused now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm very confused now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why?