Ammon --

When she said on Tuesday night that you had ruined a perfectly good friendship, I'm assuming she meant W and OM, right? Yes, my WW, hopefully a FWW soon! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Does "ruined" mean that she's claiming NC now with OM? No, not as of yet. It looks better but no agreement yet. But ruined in the sense tht it was, definately yes. She is slowly beginning to see the effect tht it had and continues to have on my emotional state.

POJA rules! The full concept of this does not make sense to her yet. I have mentioned to her the policy of radical honesty and she agreed to it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Yea , right. But a total honesty is slowly beginning to emerge from her. The reason I say that she does not understand is that I approavhed her with the POJA rules and explained the concept behind them. While she stated that she understood she broke them within a week. I was to take our children Christmas Shopping and I expressed my desire that I wanted to only take our kids. She agreed and said for me to just take her best friends child home before we left. Long story short, I got home from work that evening and she told me tht her BF had to work the next day so she had told her that I would keep her daughter. Ummm, Honey. I told you that I really wanted to only take our children and that is what we agreed to. I really would have appreciated a call or something from you asking if I would be OK with that decision or would be willing to consider taking her with us. After I explained to her why I felt that way she appeared to have understood and promised to try and do better. So, I guess we are still working on that.

She needs to agree to give up any and all contact, period! Get either her or OM out of the Quartet, Sunday School, ditto the church. Hence the reason I called the OM. The first time that I called him about the friendship he said that he would do anything to help our marriage. He even offered to quit the quartet. Now that some laundry has been aired it seems that his feelings have changed. At that time I did not know the extent of the friendship. Now he wants to point back to me and tell me that I need a day of reckoning with my wife. I agree, that needs to come. But I and my IC and Pastoral Counselors truly felt that up until Thursday that he was just a friend, a Christian brother...now I see him as an enemy to my marriage and recovery and will set boundaries for myself. If my wife follows......good, if not. Well, I can't answer that right now.

Funny thing though. I had to go and pick up WW's BF's daughter to take them skating last night. She tends to blast me when I screw up and LB with my WW. I guess it's good and bad in a way but in the conversation that we had I told her that at the smallest, my WW had an EA with this guy and she agreed. She said that my WW had a huge emotional bond with him but that it was busted now. She told me that there had been NC outside of the few times they passed each other in church up until Christmas Eve. All of these are true statements. She explained to me how my wife felt Tuesday night when I expressed my fears about the quartet starting back up. Basically that she was very angry with me. But.........she went on to say that she explained to my WW why I was acting that way. Her BF is in a second marraige. Her first ended becuase of an affair. She said she told my wife that I would act that way for a while. She said Trusting knows in his mind that you have had an EA with another man. You WW, cannot even begin to imagine the pain that Trusting is experiencing right now. Does Trusting love you? Yes, he does. He is bending over backwards in trying to deal with this. He tries to keep from making you angry but there will be times that he will just become an emotional basketcase. I say this becuase my first marriage ended because of a PA and I experienced the same thing that Trusting is experiencing right now. Even after a divorce and a new marriage there are still things that triggers my mind and I still experience the anguish that i felt then. Not to the full extend or force but the lingering effects are still here. Even after 4 years, they are still here.

Maybe that's why my W was in a better mood last night when I got home. They had lunch together, late yesterday evening. After I had called my wife in the middle of an emotional meltdown. Her BF said that their conversation stemmed from the question from my wife, "Why is he acting this way? I should be the one crying not him."

So, maybe in a round about way this BF that I onee feared may prove to be a help. At least that is what I have been praying for. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Lord, either use her or remove her as I know that you know what is best for all of us. Maybe he has decided to use her.

So, after 2 days of meltdown, I am actually beginning to feel better again. The wife and I actually have a date tonight. The Men's Prayer Group that I attend every Tuesday morning is having a fellowship tonight at the Leaders house. That leader is actually one of my Pastoral Counselors that I see every week. Well, at lease since last August. He and I were both shocked that she even agreed to go.

Trusting Her --

The key word in my suggestion about contact between W and OM is "agree" -- "She needs to agree to give up any and all contact, period! Get either her or OM out of the Quartet, Sunday School, ditto the church. Hence the reason I called the OM."

Can you see that you calling the OM circumvents the issue in that regard? Your W certainly didn't agree to that call and, what's more important, hadn't agreed to NC with him before or since. First things first, especially since the call didn't "work."

If you're approaching the situation from the idea of getting him out of the picture (no matter what she's agreed to), that's one issue. Not sure how effective it would be anyhow if W still wants this contact and involvement. To me, the larger question is, will she AGREE to a NC arrangement?

Your marriage will not be able to survive her continued behavior and she needs to hear that and know it. Again, set some boundaries, implement a good solid genuine Plan A, and stick to it.

How did your "date" go last night? Of course you know that this thing isn't over yet by a long shot; you can't see around the corner. I'm glad you continue to be optimistic and hopeful. At this point, you're the best advocate for your marriage. Hang in...

Ammon

How did our date go?

Pretty well I guess. We dropped the children off at the mall with my Mom. I asked her what the plans were for them and she said that she would probably be tired of hearing (whoever, one of my support group) preaching by 8:00 so we would probably be picking them up early. My wife has a very directed sense of humor when she is nervous. As we were driving there I mentioned that maybe we just ought to drop off the food and go out with a couple of friends, and have a few drinks. A few drinks she asked, why would I do that as I do not drink. I said becuase it would help both of us get over the hump of being together alone. Her reply to that; I do not need any drinks to get over the hump. I can get over the hump if I desire to.

So, I wonder where the desire is.

But the dinner was good, she laughed, her sense of humor was there and back to normal. We ended up sitting with (whoever and his wife and another couple) and had a good time. After the meal we all went into the den and basically followed our Tuesday morning agenda. (Whoever) asked each man to state one thing that they had learned last year. Next, each man was asked to state on area that they wanted to improve in for this year. Then each man prayed for the man on his right for that request. After that (whoever) prayed for each wife there.

The above process took well over an hour to complete as there were 18 couples there. But.....and hopefully this is good. While (whoever) was praying for the wives, and he started with mine. Nothing convicting, or pointed, or judgemental, just simple Thanks for who they were, and the impact that they have on our daily lives and families my wife began to wipe tears from her eyes. This round of prayer lasted for about 30 minutes adn my wife wiped tears from her eyes the entire time. Me? I just settled down beside her and gently put my hand on her shoulder.

What were the tears for? I have no idea. Maybe one day she may share with me the reason for them.

So, in a nutshell, there was our date. One of the few that we have had in the last several months, alone at least.

Vent! Vent! Vent! Blah......I think I LB'ed big time tonight.

My wife met with her IC today. They think I read to much and try to apply to much logic to everything. She has been meeting with this lady since early September and the final results.

We are where we are in our marriage due to years of emotional neglect

And a large part of that is very true as I arrived in this marriage with tons of preconceived ideas as to what a marriage was supposed to be, most of which was incorrect. Now I have made changes, understand what a good marriage is supposed to be like and the best my wife can say is, I'm not going anywhere. Well maybe a bit more and a little more on the positive side. Sunday I did ask her that if I could assure her that her and the childrens financial future was secure would she leave the marriage? After about five minutes of thinking she replied, I could not say yes to that. A bit more hopeful than the frist answer.

So how did I LB? I attempted to get her to agree to a NC with the OM. Now bear in mind, if you go back and read the conversation I overheard between her and her best friend. This conversation was repeated verbatim to he IC on October 8. Her IC gave both of us a basic depression test. My wife scored a -33, which supossedly equated to severly depressed, I was a 7 which was blue. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> That only lasted till Thursday where I then felt I was probably futher down that a -33. D-Day was October 7. But.......the weird thing is, or at least weird to me, she states that her IC has never mentioned this OM again. I asked my wife about this again last week and even asked her to ask her IC about how the emotional presence of another man would affect the marriage. Her response today, her IC wanted to know if I understood that she was there for individual counseling and marriage therapy. Duh! How to you help someone recover or restore their marriage when there is an OM in the picture. And it was her IC who told me about "His Needs, Her Needs", which of course led me here.

But back to the NC request. My wife would not agree to something that she might break. I assured her that simply agreeing to attempt NC with confirmation from her if it was broke would go a long way with me and this emotional rollercoaster I was on. She then stated that what she was fixing to say would probably be taken wrong by me but that she preceived me asking for her cell phone detail, asking her for NC, and notification of contact as a control issue. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I can understand how you would feel that way but I really not see it as a control issue. In July 2002 you told me that you had lost trust and respect for me due to financial problems we had in 1998. How do I prove to you that I am trustworthy in that area. You can see for yourself as the bill collectors are no longer calling. I show you the checkbook and tell you which bills were paid, what is due. If you have any questions about any of the checks or money I openly and honestly answer you questions. On October 7 I lost trust in you do to a friendship with OM that I did not know about. You say that everybody knew about it but you do not want me to talk to OM's wife or share this knowledge with your parents. I see it as simply providing information as to where you are and what you are doing. It really has nothing to do with control but has a lot to do with trust.

But, as the LB'ing conversation continued, she stated that she keeps thinking and trying to do and come up with things that would prove or make me feel better emotionally. Man did I hose this one up! A little remorse in the pain that you caused me. An inkling somewhere in your mind that the boundaries you crossed were wrong. That the friendship you had with this OM is not the values that we want to instill in our children. Prehaps you coming to me as I came to you, crying and in tears for the pain and anguish that I caused you and asked your forgivness. I could not tell if any of that sank in but there appeared to be just a slight hint of something in her facial expressions, but then she explained that she felt that she had not done that becuase we were basically in different areas of the game at this time. Different areas, do you think that we could at least get on the same field instead of different ballparks. And then she commented that maybe she did not know that it was wrong, or maybe she did not know what it was. That comment really floored me.

So I guess I now pose the following questions?

What kind of IC would know about the presence of a OM and never address it?

What are the odds of all the details listed in the thread resulting in only a platonic friendship? No, I am not in denial, just a silly question.

Just how many withdrawals did I make tonight?

Probably a ton more but my mind is on overload right now so I'll quit asking.

Just a few thoughts here. Due to the way that my wife was raised, the moral values that were taught to her by her parents, the Christian values that were instilled her and the example that her parents continue to set for us and others. Knowing that by nature she is a conflict avoider at all cost. To admit to herself that she was ever involved in a relationship like this totally contradicts everything that she was taught and at one time believed in would totally destroy her. But, to not admit and carry this all inside of her will also destroy her.

My real concern for her now is health related. She just always appears to be completly exhausted now. Her mother even asked me the other day if my W appeared to be more tired than usual. I said that yes she did. She can close her eyes almost anytime of the day and be asleep in seconds, but when she wakes up she is constantly yawning and making comments about how tired she is, even after 9 hours of sleep.

<small>[ January 15, 2003, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: trusting her ]</small>

Trusting Her --

We meet again! Just some thoughts about your last post:

1) "she states that her IC has never mentioned this OM again" -- Yes, but you don't know that for a fact, do you? You are basing your assumptions on the truth of her statements to you = absolutely unreliable information. And you're assuming things not in evidence. Key rule: Don't make any assumptions!

2) "My wife would not agree to something that she might break" -- Her statement or yours? Did she say those words or are you assuming this? Bottom line: she didn't agree to NC. Not where she wanted to go at this point.

3) "she perceived me asking for her cell phone detail, asking her for NC, and notification of contact as a control issue" -- not at all; it's called Basic Research and self-protection. Do you know that you can go online and pull up W's cell phone records yourself. You need answers, W won't provide them, so you have to go digging yourself.

4) "I can understand how you would feel that way but I really not see it as a control issue" -- Major point here: You don't but SHE does. You have to be able to look at her perception of things, from her point of view. Perception = 9/10 of Reality for a WS (and many others). Getting inside her head is a valuable mission--as much as it is possible. Certainly helps avoid LB's.

5) "It really has nothing to do with control but has a lot to do with trust" -- Don't teach! Listen and absorb and understand her, but don't try to educate her. That's a journey she must make for herself. Your entire next paragraph digs that in farther. Too much logic and "book-learning" and LB'ing. Next time you're tempted, go for a walk. Once that "descending spiral" starts, there is nothing you can do to prevent things from going from bad to much worse...except to walk away.

6) "What are the odds of all the details listed in the thread resulting in only a platonic friendship?" -- Unfortunately, not very good. Seems pretty clear to me. Not what you want to hear, I know, but it's better to be "dealing with a devil" that you know about. You need to know the truth, and I think you already do...

Your concerns about health issues for your W are very real. She's going through great stress and pressure (albeit self-induced) and her health is suffering. She may be depressed; that would explain the extreme tiredness. She probably looks like a wreck, exhausted and stressed-out. But this is her choice. Doesn't have to be this way.

Your W will need to "bottom out" before any meaningful and solid recovery in your marriage is possible. As hard as this will be for you, you have to let her. Be there when she needs you, continue to love her, but let her hit bottom. Hang in there, Trusting, it's a long and bumpy road.

Ammon

Ammon--

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1) "she states that her IC has never mentioned this OM again" -- Yes, but you don't know that for a fact, do you? You are basing your assumptions on the truth of her statements to you = absolutely unreliable information. And you're assuming things not in evidence. Key rule: Don't make any assumptions!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are correct. I guess being at my wits end I wanted a verbal expression from her about this. But the good news is this. In one of our previous conversations she used the word "withdrawal when talking about the OM and that she did not experience any. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> That is not a word that I taught her so I guess it was discussed somewhere.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2) "My wife would not agree to something that she might break" -- Her statement or yours? Did she say those words or are you assuming this? Bottom line: she didn't agree to NC. Not where she wanted to go at this point.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Her words: "I cannot agree to something that I might not keep. I cannot promise you that I will not stop and talk to OM if I see him

But later she did say she would quit the quartet if that would make me feel better. I said that it would make me feel much better. I guess I'll wait to see if this really happens. But on a positive note. The OM, wife, son, daughter, and granddaughter were all in Prayer Meeting last night for the second week. His wife and children have not attended this, much less Sunday School in over 2 years. Maybe he had an awakeing after his extended stay in the hospital.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">3) "she perceived me asking for her cell phone detail, asking her for NC, and notification of contact as a control issue" -- not at all; it's called Basic Research and self-protection. Do you know that you can go online and pull up W's cell phone records yourself. You need answers, W won't provide them, so you have to go digging yourself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree on the Basic Research and self-protection. Positive side of this is that she has never removed me from her cell-phone account so she knows that I can check it at anytime. Her last 2 calls were made from her cell phone. Yes I know that she can contact many other ways, but it appears that she is trying but still in a FOG.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">4) "I can understand how you would feel that way but I really not see it as a control issue" -- Major point here: You don't but SHE does. You have to be able to look at her perception of things, from her point of view. Perception = 9/10 of Reality for a WS (and many others). Getting inside her head is a valuable mission--as much as it is possible. Certainly helps avoid LB's. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know. I should have stopped at the I can understand how you would feel that way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">5) "It really has nothing to do with control but has a lot to do with trust" -- Don't teach! Listen and absorb and understand her, but don't try to educate her. That's a journey she must make for herself. Your entire next paragraph digs that in farther. Too much logic and "book-learning" and LB'ing. Next time you're tempted, go for a walk. Once that "descending spiral" starts, there is nothing you can do to prevent things from going from bad to much worse...except to walk away.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This I know too. I tend to get hyper-verbal at times. And being under stress does not help. Walk........3 miles every day, had to do something to explain the 25 lb. weight loss. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">6) "What are the odds of all the details listed in the thread resulting in only a platonic friendship?" -- Unfortunately, not very good. Seems pretty clear to me. Not what you want to hear, I know, but it's better to be "dealing with a devil" that you know about. You need to know the truth, and I think you already do...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> It's just that the truth hurts! Just waiting for the FOG to clear.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your concerns about health issues for your W are very real. She's going through great stress and pressure (albeit self-induced) and her health is suffering. She may be depressed; that would explain the extreme tiredness. She probably looks like a wreck, exhausted and stressed-out. But this is her choice. Doesn't have to be this way.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*chuckles to himself* I still think she looks pretty good, beautiful to tell you the truth. But in reality, after 9 hours of sleep last night she woke up looking even worse. May be depressed! I have no idea as to the test her IC gave us back on D-Day but she scored a -33. Her IC translated that to severely depressed but recommended AD's for me and none for her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your W will need to "bottom out" before any meaningful and solid recovery in your marriage is possible. As hard as this will be for you, you have to let her. Be there when she needs you, continue to love her, but let her hit bottom. Hang in there, Trusting, it's a long and bumpy road.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know that, you know that. I have even reached that point several times in my past. So I know where to go and what to do. My wife of course has never experienced anything of this sort. And with her being a conflict avoider, a perfectionist, and a die-hard attitude of "I Can Do It" just prolongs that road to the bottom.

On a second note. After soming home from he IC session Tuesday she made the following comment;

IC says we are where we are in our mariage due to years of emotional neglect.

I wanted to ask if that was all but I kept my mouth shut.

Trusting Her --

"IC says we are where we are in our marriage due to years of emotional neglect" -- Yes, I read this on your other thread. But you don't KNOW this for a fact, do you? You weren't at the counseling session and don't know what IC said or didn't say. Again, don't assume anything W says to be the truth. It's unfortunately the way you're going to have to process information from W until The Fog lifts.

Besides, I'm not sure I know what that statement says anyhow (if it was made); seems pretty vague and meaningless. One could make the same "quote" about any marriage with problems; doesn't even begin to go far enough. Out of context, I'd say it doesn't help matters. Vague pronouncements are just that...

Bravo for biting your tongue when she said that! Must have taken all your willpower not to come back with something pithy (which would probably have been a giant LB!). Even when we know what to do, what the right thing is, it is SO hard to do it. That's the supreme challenge here: finding the right thing to do and then doing it, especially when we often don't even know what that elusive "right thing" is!

So you plod along, as do we all, and hope that tomorrow brings with it a brighter sky. Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. I'm here...

Ammon

WOW- TrustingHer.......WOW. We are on the same dday schedule here- October for me too- I have a WH-hard as it is to accept the facts there they are...I think the answer I get "I'm here,aren't I?" is basically the same as "I'm not going anywhere" still sounds like if I do the right thing he'll stick around and it all seems so BACKWARDS for the BS to be the one keeping their mouth shut and playing nice......but it does work-I get details I want/think I need, when I want them- sometimes it a simple chat- sometimes its a loud chat....sometimes we both laugh-weird I know-but after 23 years we do laugh at the same things-despite the circumstances! I did go to the OW H and tell him what was going on between our spouses- that is a major discussion on these boards-to tell or not to tell-who to tell/who never to tell... but it was the ONLY choice I had. Also that NO CONTACT thing is the ONLY way to go- forget that quartet. that will be your WW cross to bear- my WH took the OW to an event-his MOST favorite thing to do- and we will NEVER go there together again-or seperately-its just GONE. very hard for him to accept-giving up what he digs most- oh well-WS made the choice and I will never accept that part of it- that trigger won't go away or be ok in a million years. your story mimics mine so much I could hardly read it-I still feel like IDIOT is tatooed on my head....God Bless you- keep writing and asking here- it does help!

Trusting Her --

Some thoughts to follow up on two of your points:

"...she did say she would quit the quartet if that would make me feel better." -- To me, this is a critical element in your recovery, one that goes directly to the goal of NC. Anything that you can do to get her to agree to less contact with OM is desireable; anything that you can engineer which will result in W seeing less of him is the way to go. Her statement about quitting the quartet shows promise; now you wait to see... Will she do it? Will she need to be reminded of her words?

"Maybe he had an awakening after his extended stay in the hospital." -- That's the other side of this that you really know very little about: what's going on with OM? His family? His anxieties and any misgivings? We hope that the pressures of the A are wearing on him and his family. We hope for erosion and stress strong enough to allow things to fall apart and collapse inward.

Give us a check-in over the weekend. You too, Ruth 2222, we're here for you both...

Ammon

oh I'm still here......LOL Mostly its a very quiet life.....we go more places and do more things...but you can't erase the tension-the A is in the air.....I wouldn't bet the ranch that he hasn't seen/spoken to OW but I don't *think* he has. I am an artist and I am starting to create again-gold star for me- my parents are away for the winter which simplifies some things-I KNOW they KNOW something big is up around my house-so I am glad they don't have to watch in person-they have bestowed some major gifts on me in the last month-which is why I think they KNOW- but I miss them also- and hopefully by spring, when they return, I will not have what is apparently a despondent look on my face! I haven't spoken to the OW H in 2+ months- don't know if I should talk to him or not. Hes an upright guy- don't know what he's decided about his WW. Weekends are long around here........I'll let ya'll know how it goes.........keeping the faith........thru the fog........maybe I could get a fog horn.....see? I still have a sense of humor....

Ruth 2222 --

Glad to see that your sense of humor is intact; some days it's the only thing that gets us through. Hope that Trusting Her won't mind a temporary hijack of his thread for this reponse to you (apologies, TH).

I hear you clearly about the tension from the A "in the air." Perhaps to be expected since this is still a recently opened wound for you and your relationship. Good that you're creating again. That part of me suffered immediately and severely; only now after many months am I able to approach the process with any interest and substance.

I've looked in vain for your story and have pieced together that your D-Day was back in late October and that you're still hanging in there (a good thing!), but beyond that I know little else. I like your style and your "take" on your situation, also the fact that you're an artist/teacher. Would you be comfortable sharing some background with us? Maybe open a new thread on this forum or another? I know that you haven't "just found out" but the topic lines on these forums (fora?) are often blurred. Let us know what you decide. BTW, you haven't confided in your parents; I'm wondering why not, especially since there's obviously a close bond there.

Pssst...I have a source which deals in used foghorns, interested?

OK, Trusting, you may have your thread back...

Ammon

oh dear-I really don't understand heisting a thread or whatever we are calling it here.....I have posted my "story" somewhere and answered all over the place.....tell-don't tell-just found out-etc...... long story short:) best male friend-age 40-fellow scoutmaster- died (June 2002)within 7 months (November 2001)of discovering liver cancer-our family cared for him and his young wife-infant son and young daughter for those 7 months- this man was a MAJOR MENTOR for my eldest son who is 20- they had become friends in adventure-and our life revolved around that crisis-no regrets here for any of us. Eldest son rode his bike across USA summer 2002 for the Lance Armstrong Foundation-in honor of and then in memory of this man. 11 days after his trip started the friend died- my son wrote a eulogy which I delivered-this was all very difficult and stressful- plus my son being GONE for 60 days on a bike was CRAZY for me! add to this the fact that I hadn't worked for 20 years.....and I was teaching 8 weeks thru June,July,August.......so apparently in my busy stressed grieving state.......WH felt neglected......well isn't that sad. I "knew" very quickly that something was UP but I had no time or energy to pursue the detective part.....until October 19th. On my way into church to teach a teen class on lies and betrayal... ....life is ironic. toldmy sons- 17 & 20- and discovered that the youngest....his fathers SOULMATE CHILD- knew who/where and didn't realize he had been used in the entire deceit- that child will never fully recover. gotta go quick......more another day....

quick note-my sister says ''when you are DOWN to nothing, God is UP to something" chins up- forward ho!

Ammon--

"...she did say she would quit the quartet if that would make me feel better." --

And I hope she does. She has a lot of outside activities that she has become involved in that took her away from the family and home. Another of the reasons we drifted apart. Something we both have come to realize now as we work on more time together. She's just still very uncomfortable with time alone for just the two of us.

A mental note that I made the other day after having a conversation with another friend we were trying to talk into taking his wife out. She said;

OK, you and I (talking about the other husband) will take the kids out and have a good time. Trusting and best friend can go out and eat since they both like that kind of stuff.

Emotional need for Family Commitment at this time may be more important thatn quality time alone with me. I can see lots of bowling and other family activities in our future. And possibly slide in a few alone dates now and then. We have had a total of three since D-day.

Maybe a quite reminder in a few weeks. I know she really wants to stop some of these activities.

"Maybe he had an awakening after his extended stay in the hospital." -- That's the other side of this that you really know very little about: what's going on with OM? His family? His anxieties and any misgivings? We hope that the pressures of the A are wearing on him and his family. We hope for erosion and stress strong enough to allow things to fall apart and collapse inward.

A lot of these things I will never know. I do know that his family as a whole has hardly ever attended church together. I guess all of them being there all of a sudden means that something has had an impact on their lifes. Either his hospital stay (I just think it's ironic that he enter the hospital early the next morning after I confronted him) or maybe just a spiritual awakening.

Misgivings? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Well, I will not even go there. I tried to put myself into his shoes and I find myself loving the idea of my wife calling me 2 or 3 times a day at work, meeting for lunch, quite possibly a few dinners in there somewhere. And when I look at his wife, well, let's just say I'd rather have mine. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

A check in!

A comment my wife made during our Tuesday evening LB'er.

"What if I did not know waht it was."

She was refering to the EA. Duh! That makes sense as I doubt most of us wake up and say to ourselves "I think I'll go out and start an EA today". So maybe, just quite possibly, there is a little education going on here. I imagine she woke up, well not really, but somewhere along the line she realized what was going on and had no idea how to stop it or how to get out of it. I do remember one of her comments back in August, bear in mind that this was before I was aware of the OM. "Maybe I will call IC, I just feel so confused.".

But I claimed that thought of her not knowing as a good one for me. I spent most of the day Friday trying to keep myself from doing something stupid. I had 4 hours of idle drive time going to a remote site for some work. Geez, by time I got home I was almost ballistic with wild thoughts and what I was going to do. But it was late last night after much prayer that I suddenly remembered that comment. It was enough to calm me down just reminding myself that it did not happen overnight, probably happened with her being completely unaware of it until it was to late and then WHAMO! Oh no! What do I do now?

No, it did not happen overnight and it will not go away overnight. This I know. So I just keep trying to give her a safe enviroment to grow in and bite my tounge quite a bit. My self-esteem is so low at times that even little jokes throw me into the pits. She made a joke about wanting a twin bed last night and of course I took it right to heart. *begins biting his tounge*

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anger normally covers other emotions - guilt perhaps? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Softman said this in another thread. Anger is an emotion that my wife has never really expressed. Not in any outward terms anyway. At least not up until the discovery of the OM and me asking questions about him. As we continue through individual IC I have come to learn that this is something she was taught as a child. You are not to express anger or hurt other people's feelings. This was per her IC in the one session I did attend.

Where is this leading to? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> A talk that the wife and I had back in October. She told me that this is not the result of anything and that I did in the last year, or even the last few years. This is the result of something you did a several years ago.

Several years ago was our huge financial problems. She stated that she could not deal with the stress and worry of bill collectors calling. Yes, I failed HUGE in the financial security department then. But.......we overcame, from the brink of brankruptcy to where we are today. An actul positive cash flow, a few hic-cups here and there but no marriage.

In her explanation that night she said that to deal with the stress and anger (which I never saw or was it ever expressed, yes, a replica of my family and my childhood) she just shut it out. When she shut it out I went with it. She actually says that she has felt this way about me for a long, long time, that she lost trust and respect for me back in 1998. I guess Harley would call it withdrawal. But I pose another question. If this financial event was so tramautic to her and she supressed it and the anger. What does that do to her feelings? Can she feel or has she built some sort of wall that does not allow her to see good in me?

I can see that I am in for a long recovery, but for whatever reason I feel that it hinges on each of us learning to trust again and forgive each other. I have gone to her asking forgivness for my faults and failures. Has she forgiven me? Only she knows that as I cannot see her heart.

Oh, the three wonderful months I thought we were having. That all ended in January when the Holidays were over. She said that she just wanted to get through the Holidays and have a good time for the family and children. She knew that if she kissed me and showed me affection that t would nake things eaiser for me. Now that the Holidays are over, well, she's tired of playing that game so it all stopped. But she swears that this change in attitude has absoutely nothing to do with the OM nor her contacting him the first of January. She swears that I keep making something out of nothing.

My personal opinion, assuming that there is no OM. She supressed her anger at me back in 1998. Anger can only be supressed for so long before the effects of it beging to show. My wife is now severely depressed. So much so that her parents even notice it. Me? Well, I feel that I am heading that way too.

Oh well........I've ranted enough for the day. I need to go a create me a list of samll things that I can do to motivate myself to continue on. If not for my wife at least for myself and the children. Hopefully her and the IC will get to the ROOT CAUSE of her anger and depression and we can begin working on US one day. Right now, I guess I'll just concentrate on me!

<small>[ January 20, 2003, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: trusting her ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Ruth 2222:
<strong>quick note-my sister says ''when you are DOWN to nothing, God is UP to something" chins up- forward ho!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Well, he is definately up to somethig in my life. I see where we are headed but oh how it hurts at times.

I bought a roll of dust tape and I think I'll start using it in the future when I feel the urge to start a LB conversation. Just tape my mouth shut until I can find a place to vent.

good morning TrustingHer and everyone else....hope you all lived peacefully thru the weekend. I left my H alone with his TV- his team is NOT going to the superbowl.......that is not a mood improver....LOL most chats lead to him saying "I'm here aren't I?" and alot of "just leave me alone".......so ok- I do that alot- I just leave him alone. He does come looking for me-finds me folding laundry or whatever- its like he wants to "come back" and doesn't know how, past asking what are you doing.....(folding laundry.....) oh ok.....just checking. Any ideas how to help him past that? I hung a new quote up last night- its a place everyone looks at as I am always putting a quote up- even before this MESS....the new quote is "A MAN HAS TO LIVE WITH HIMSELF, AND HE SHOULD SEE TO IT THAT HE ALWAYS HAS GOOD COMPANY." amen. Kids are off today- no school for the MLK holiday and the other is newly laid off from work- nice for me to have some company!

Ruth 2222--

Lived through the weekend? I guess you could say we survived it. Saturday was pretty unenventful as we had a house full of extra kids. Sunday I guess it began to go downhill. Considering that since Sunday morning my wife has hardley spoken to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Oh, there are a few grunts here and there but not much. We speak what has to be spoken of about the children and shedules but outside of that nothing. She did tell me that the affection that she was showing me during the Holidays was just that. For the Holidays. She wanted everyone to have a good time and knew that a few hugs and kisses would go a long way in making me feel better. But.....now that the Holidays are over we are back to the old routine.

The little things I used to say that got a response of at least "Thank You" are now returned with silence. The kisses that she gave me when leaving for work have gone away. Something about she did not want that to become a habit as it had in the past. She did go to Sunday School Sunday but I have no idea if the OM was there or not. She also went to quartet practice again last night. Was he there? I do not know. It was later than usual when she returned and not a word was spoken. But that was par for most of the day.

She did tell me Monday morning that she felt I was a controlling person, but in a subtel way. I asked if she could explain in what subtle ways I controlled her so that I could make changes but her response was "I don't know". Last night she had a hard time going to sleep. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I wonder what that was about. She is usually out like a light after 5 minutes in the bed. But last night, after 45 minutes of laying there she was still awake. A penny for your thoughts I asked. No avail there. I asked a few leading questions about her day and lunch date with an old friend but they were all answered with simple sentences. Seeing that she did not want to talk about anything I rolled over and fell asleep.

Not knowing in what subtle ways I control her I let her sleep in this morning. She even had to hit her snooz button herself. I get up at 5:25 for an hour of prayer and study. Usually I turn off her alarm and let her sleep until 6:15, then go in and wake her up. I thought this was being considerate but prehaps she preceives this as controlling. I don't know. All of this seems so confusing at times.

I keep reading here about WS having 3 and 4 month EA's and one time PA's and the devastation that only those few months caused and the recovery process and I find it hard to believe my wife when she says that she had no feeling for this OM after all the evidence I see. Maybe I maried the one in a million who can have a close friendship with another male without the knowledge of the other spouses and it has no effect on her. Right! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I guess I just continue to meet the needs that she will let me meet and keep from LB'ing.

Just a few thoughts that have entered my mind lately.

I control. Can I give her responsibility for her car payment and insurance payment without it being a LB?

The OM? While I know that I cannot stop her from seeing him, is it within my boundaries as a husband and father to take our children to another church. She may not follow, but at least it gets me out of his presence?

She made the comment last Tuesday that she would quit the quartet? Was that a way of asking for help without admitting fault on her side or just to get me to drop the subject of the OM? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Oh! Monday night she had a form she wanted to make on the computer. She actually got her first email address. Well, I got it for her. But in the process of working on this form it appeared that at times she would just wander off. She had her written copy in front of her but after finishing a line she would sometimes just sit there for a minute or so before going on. Granted she is new to using a computer but is quite familiar with a typewriter. She did say Sunday night that she needed to start her walking again as that helps fight off her depression. She even stated that she quite often completly forgets what she is saying in mid-sentence and has to stop and regroup her train of thought. I wonder if the depression stems from her unresolved anger at me or from some other source.

Oh well. Maybe one day I'll have an answer. My IC says that she will either collaspe or blow up one day. While sad, he says it will have to happen sans a true awaking on her part. He calls her a walking guilt bomb. Not from any current experiences but from how she was raised and from what she was taught as a child. That stemmed from a conversation we had about ironing one day. I was ironing the children's clothes for the next school day and asked if she had anything that needed to be ironed. She replied that I did not have to do that. My IC said that as a counselor he would pose her the question of making that an I statment. I already knew the answer to that one as she had told me in the past that when I iron it makes her feel guilty, that she is not doing her job. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> That one really blew me away. Her job is to iron? I am the oldest of 5, 4 younger sisters. I've been washing, ironing, cooking, cleaning for most of my childhood and adult life.

Duh! Starting to ramble here so off I go. Wishing all a good day and a better future.

Have a Blessed Day.

<small>[ January 22, 2003, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: trusting her ]</small>