Been married for 11 years together for twenty two with 3 young children house and 2 SUVS. W has had a 4 year EPA with boss. They travevlled together in tech sales all over NA. I knew about the A after the first month -gut feeling and overt change in behavior. There were notes and inconsistencies with travel itineraries. Confrontations were met with denials and lies. I finally discovered an explicit email last June. She denied and finally admitted after a lengthy interogation. We went to MC and W stopped going after a few sessions. Claimed that talking about it did not help and A was over anyway. Yea right. Two weeks ago (Jan 15) I found them together at our cottage (D-Day 2) which is winterized. I was up for some Ice fishing, a mid week hookie trip. She was supposed to be on a business trip. Yea right! I did not confront him. He re-clothed and left. She started sobbing and begged me not to leave her. She wanted a fresh start.Talked for four hours. No D please W pleaded!! She claimed to be sorry. I was a mess and made no promises. (I didn't get to go ice fishing!) Seriously, I learned quickly that a sense of humour is necessary when coping with this type of emotional trauma.But it wasn't easy.

More info: I am basically the Mr. Mom. She was away on business with him for four years while I cooked cleaned and changed diapers. I have had IC and I am on anti depression meds. I work full time play squash four times a week and then take care of the kids at night. So after a 8 month roller coater ride through the eye of pain and darkness, Ive come out of the fog. I was able to deal with D-day 2 very well. But it still hurts like hell! My W has not been traveling that much since Xmas(2 trips) OM (married with children) flew to see her from another city where he lives. I'm at a cross roads. Should I stay or shoud I go?? Some perspectives and advice please.

Broken Arrow

You can recover. Many people have. It isn't easy, and not everyone succeeds, but as long as you are both working on it, your chances are close to 100%, providing you do three things (and note that you did not do them after DDay #1):

1.) Learn. Read everything in the Basic Concepts section of this site. Next, read all the Q&A's on infidelity on this site. They are found at How to Survive Infidelity Then buy and read “Surviving an Affair”, by Willard Harley, (hereinafter referred to as “SAA”) available at the Bookstore. SAA is THE best book on the market for helping one get to the root of “the message of the affair” (BUT YOU HAVE TO DO THE QUESTIONAIRES!). It (along with the Basic Concepts section of this site) is also helpful for giving you a vision of what a great marriage should look like. The approach of SAA to this problem is that the best defense against affairs is to have a great marriage. My wife said we had a good marriage, but she still had an affair. She was kidding herself, but it was not until we read SAA and saw what a great marriage should look like that we could clearly identify the problem areas and had the tools necessary to fix them.

The phrase “the message of the affair” is from the book “Torn Asunder”, by Carder (hereinafter referred to as “TA”). I personally think this is the best book on affair recovery we have read. In particular it deals with the two different paths the recovery of the betrayed spouse (BS) and the wayward spouse (WS) need to take, and deals w/ remorse in a way that I prefer to SAA. Read it together, if your spouse is willing. If not, go through it yourself. If you or your spouse has issues with control, you might also want to read “The State of Affairs”, (SOA) by Todd Mulliken, which also treats the remorse issue similarly to TA. SOA also deals with "the vision thing" for marriage, which is neglected in SAA.

2.) See a marriage counselor. This is hard. You need help. These boards are populated by amateurs. MC’s are professionals. There is a difference. They can help deal with issues the books don’t cover, and customize things to your individual situation. That said, there are lots of bad MC’s in the world. Read, and take to heart, How To Find A Good Marriage Counselor. You do not want an MC that is going to teach you how to live with an awful spouse, or how to adjust to divorce. Too many of them do, as is documented here: Hazardous Counseling. Reading that link may scare you off counseling, but it should give you some good ideas to ask a potential MC before you start w/ them, so you can avoid those that give you the wrong answers. You need one that is committed to helping couples have great marriages, and knows how to do that.

You are on an emotional rollercoaster right now, and there will be times that you will think it would be best to just divorce your spouse and go on with your life. Though there are no guarantees, recovery IS possible, but it takes time and effort. You will hate yourself if you don't do everything you can to make that happen. Give yourself the time you need.

3.) I understand that you may not be a person of faith, but for me, getting my spiritual life in order was crucial. As I said, this is hard. I knew I would need all the help I could get. Repenting of the habitual sins in my life let me stop pushing God away so I could hold on for dear life. I had to humble myself and ask Him what I had done wrong, and what I could do to be the husband He wanted me to be for his child, my wife. This was not about blaming myself. It was about doing what I could to do my part in having a great marriage. My wife could participate or not, but I had to know I had done everything I could do. It also helped me to let go of thinking about what SHE needed to do, since I couldn't control her, anyway.

You might also want to read through: WAT's Quick Start Guidelines for Betrayed Spouses, but keep in mind that these are the writings of amateurs. Get the books, read the articles, and see a GOOD counselor - you need the best help you can get.

I have one additional piece of advice for you: make sure his wife knows. The preferred way to do this, IMO, is to tell him that his wife will find out in two days, so he can prepare her any way he wants. Then have your wife write an NC letter, and copy his wife. Then you follow up w/ a phone call to the W, to make sure she has received it. I understand that this may be complicated by the fact that they work together, but this MUST stop. If she has to change jobs or companies, so be it. I was where you are, and if they were still working together we would be divorced. You can find numerous testimonials her about how important No Contact (NC) is. It is almost impossible to recover without it, but in your case it IS impossible. She puts her job ahead of you, too, doesn't she? I have been there.

Thanks Johnny99: A lot of helpful stuff. Been to a good MC but W refused to participate. Got the book "after the affair." All your other advice is excellent! Will look into it. I'm stable right now an can think with clearity. Your input is much appreciated.

Broken Arrow

sorry johnh39 got your name right now.
Broken Arrow

What did you think of "After the Affair"?

As for W not participating: Well, notice my high odds for success depend on both parties participating. If your W never participates, you aren't really married.

<small>[ February 06, 2003, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

Sorry. Dreaded double post.

<small>[ February 06, 2003, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

Hopefully you have contacted the OM's wife and informed her. Seriously it looks like your wife has no intention of giving up the affair. It is ridiculous the way your wife is treating you. She is acting as a typical cakewoman who enjoys the single life but wants to keep the benefit of a marriage. She does not seem to care how much she humiliates and disrespects you. You need to contact a lawyer to understand your options. Your wife is not acting like a wife and is continuing to play you. You do not have to accept being second choice. You need to find someone who respects you and a committment to a marriage which is something that does not fit the description of your wife. I wish you luck. You deserve better than this and only you can decide if you wish to accept this.

Whether you stay or leave really depends on what your wife is doing to rebuild the marriage. If she is still in contact with the OM, still travelling and meeting with him, not being truthful as to her whereabouts, not showing you affection, not going to counselling, etc then the chances are that she is not serious about reconciling. Look at her actions not her words.

I have to agree in this particular case, because your W travels with the OM, who is her BOSS, that the first sign she should give you that she is sincere in her desire to NOT get a DV is QUIT. NOW.

Then, all the other advice that John gives above should be followed.

Take care,
-Qfwfq

Ditto on all the previous advice. You need major signs from your W that she's committed to recovery. I'd start with her quitting her job immediately, sending a NC letter (perhaps with the letter of resignation) and agreeing to go back to MC.

If the boss is not also the owner of the company I'd advise you see a lawyer who knows about employment law with a view to sueing the boss and his company. Even the threat of this should be enough to make the company separate the boss and your wife to avoid bad publicity.

If he is the owner of the company I'd go after his business.

I think your wife is a lost cause after 4 years but it's your call.

You could tell her you thought she was being paid for working and didn't know she was being paid for her performance in bed.

I would put the focus on getting rid of your wife with as many dollars for you and your kids and as much pain and misery for the boss.

Oh and tell the OM's wife publicly.

The only other advice would not be legal.

Sorry I forgot DNA testing for you and the kids and STD testing for you and your wife.

Even if you are sure they are your kids. It sends a message to your wife.

And don't ever have sex with her until you have absolutely ruled out divorce.

I really do get annoyed about bosses using their authority and companies resources to finance illicit affairs with their employees. It is bad for shareholders, employees, not to mention the families. I have suggested to my kids that when they gets propositioned by anyone at work to say
"I'm sorry I don't screw with work colleagues "
and if they fancy them to add "When are you going to resign?"

Thank you all so much! Johnh39: after D-Day 1 I bought the book "after the affair". There was alot of helpful advice and perspective because it outlined what one would experience emotionally after disclosure. So the first three chapters were great the rest of the book was irrelevent because my W continued with the A. The book helped me understand that the hell I was experiencing emotionally was normal.

Bryanp: Definately a cake woman! I have contacted alawyer and am phone call away from paper delivery. Thanks for your input!

tommaz: yes I am looking for her actions. In the last 3 weeks its been different in a good way but there was also a honeymoon after D-Day 1. Don't want to get fooled again!

Qfwfq:Right now there is supposedly NC. Had her call him in front of me and send him a curriered NC letter 3 weeks ago. still thinking about the DV ultimatum. I don't no man! Thanks Qfwfq for Solsbury Hill.

olderandwiser: will look into the lawsuit. Have thout about DNA testing. Oh yea by the way I did pick up herpes 9 months ago. Confronted W. Denials beyond belief.And rationalized that it was in my system from my single days. I never had it before and fell for the lies again.

To all. The last three weeks have been a "honeymoon" peaceful and quiet. W has stopped travelling completely and works from the company office. Still undecided but leaning heavily toward DV. More experiences and insights would be great. Thanks

Look, I understand why you are leaning toward divorce. I've been there. My situation was very similar to yours - a wife who traveled a lot and had an affair w/ a co-worker. She lived two separate lives. Fortunately for me, God got through to her and she confessed. As horrible as that was, I am sure your discovery experience was MUCH worse, as was the blatant lying that went along with your suspicions. I thought long and hard about divorce, despite being in a better starting place for rebuilding my marriage than you are. However, I know about quite a number of people that started in a worse place than you, and used Harley's principles to successfully rebuild their marriages. So, it can be done, if both of you are on board. Understand that there will be times that you will not feel like working on it. Sometimes it is necessary to do things we don't feel like doing. If you need some motivation to avoid deivorce, read this: Testimonial.

That's the negative case. The positive case is this: using Harley's materials, and with the help of a good MC, one month after DDay, our marriage was better than it EVER was before, despite the horrible emotional rollercoaster I was on, and despite the fact that I continued to think seriously about divorce for another 4 or 5 months after that. And as long as we keep working on things, it continues to get better.

There were two things in particular that kept me in the game. One, my faith in God. It was clear to me that I had not been the husband God wanted me to be to my wife, and that had contributed to the problems we had in our marriage, which in turn had contributed to my wife's susceptibility to an affair. It is clear from scripture that God hates divorce. If part of our problems were caused by me ignoring God, I sure did not want to continue to do that while in crises. Two was that I did not know why this had happened, and I wanted to find out, so I would not have the same experience with someone else, if I did leave. If I had left, I never would have known.

Well, I now know, mostly, and I have a pretty good idea about how I contributed to the problems in our marriage, and I understand how they contributed to my W's decisions. But don't think I am blaming myself for her A. The things she was missing in marriage, I was missing as well, and I had just as much opportunity as she did to have an affair. Her decisions to pursue that course of action in response to our difficulties were not my fault.

BrokenArrow,

What has your W said about the herpes now? Has she been tested for HIV and other diseases? Does she realize that she has put you and your children at risk? I mean if you and/or your W die due to her fooling around your children do pay, right?

Has she indicated by word or deed that she can in fact leave a 4 year affair and be married to you? Has she indicated that she will leave her job and find another one? Has she been willing to consider counseling now?

Have you had your lawyer look into the situation that Older and Bryan have discussed with respect to the Bosses behavior? Have you considered informing her bosses W? I mean she may not know she is being exposed to herpes and many other diseases. It is time she knew.

Please tell us abit about your W's behavior and words in this past month. It will help with our advice to you.

I must say given that all you have been through, it would be tempting to file and seek full custody, since you are already in the MR. Mom role. This is a marriage building site, and we all favor that, but sometimes it isn't feasible. It is hard to tell in your situation.

Let us know what is up.

God Bless,

JL

brokenarrow:

If she's showing signs of wanting to work on the M (by not travelling with her boss), why won't she consider changing jobs?

-Qfwfq

Johnh39 and Just Learning: John believe me I ultimately don't want DV. However W behavior is the same as after D-Day one: More affectionate, calls during the day just to say heh, still reseved with Physical intimacy, seems a little smug (thats the negative), goes out of her way to let me know that I'm appreciated. She appologized for her behavior--didn't seem sincere. The fact is I think I'm being set up again. I mentioned inforimg OM wfie to ensure an end to the A. She got angry and said she did not want to ruin another family's life(whats this all about). As far as the stds she did admit the A was like playing Russian Roulette. I'm getting tested next week for everything. Just Learning: I have a feeling she's not on board for recovery. John if I truly new It would be easier. More input will be appreciated but getting closer and closere to DV. You have all helped. Thanks.Broken Arrow.
PS.Good point Qfwfq!

Brokenarrow,

I think I would tell the OM's W. You have gotten an STD from your W. The OM's W needs to know that she has been exposed to at least one STD and perhaps others and get tested. This isn't a game any longer.

Your W doesn't get the call on other peoples physical and mental health. You have important information give it to that woman.

As for your W, you haven't said what she is saying. You haven't said if she is willing to go for counseling NOW that all of this is out. I suspect you won't see much from her until no contact goes longer. However, if you don't want to save the marriage, then you really don't need to do so.

I do think that if she does, you should give her some time, but it is really your call.

God Bless,

JL

brokenarrow:

"She got angry and said she did not want to ruin another family's life(whats this all about). "

You know what that's about. She already HAS ruined another family. She just doesn't want the embarrassment of the OMW KNOWING what she's done. She'd have to face it more than she does now.

-Qfwfq

The fact that you contacted herpes and who knows what else is a very good reason to inform the OM's wife. She needs to know to protect her health. Either the OM has had more than one sexual partner besides your wife or your wife has been having more than one affair partner. Your wife has given you a life sentence as far as herpes is concerned.