Lisa...I have to disagree with some of the advise you've received. You should not have to put up with your H sleeping with OW and you! If he doesn't stop that how will you keep your self respect..how will you ever feel the same about him. What kind of example is he setting for his kids?

On dday I gave my H his choice me or OW...he chose me...no hesitation at all. I also insisted on NC which he agreed to (even though live next door and whole families were close). We also sat down with OW and her H and got agreement for NC from all 4 of us. Several days later H and OW broke NC rule...I found out a few days later and exploded. By that time...he was coming out of fog.

I told him I could deal with him having feelings for her for awhile...he could talk to me about them but NC with her or NC with me...his choice! I really felt I would go totally stark raving mad if he kept seeing her (didn't have physical contact during breaking of NC)!!!! I already felt as if my heart and soul were shattering.

He was selfish during the A and shortly after but when he saw the additional agony the breaking of the NC did to me and kids....it shook him up and fog started lifting fast! I asked him point blank what kind of person he wanted to be and did he think this was right...he gave a resounding NO.

He deluded himself shortly after dday into thinking that as long as he didn't resume physical relationship with her and I didn't find out that he could keep friendship!

Once fog lifted it only took a few weeks until he hated and despised her and was disgusted with the both of them.

I was able to forgive him the temporary insanity as long as he maintained NC and worked as an equal teammate in our recovery. If he hadn't stopped contacting her I would never have been able to forgive him or MYSELF!

I do not think Plan A is about being a doormat...it's about improving yourself. You do not have to tolerate your H still seeing/sleeping with OW! Could Plan B feel any worse then this?!

Maybe you should print this out for your H.

Best Wishes!

Thanks Everyone,

Well this weekend was good and bad. After H came home at 6:15am on Friday morning after being with OW. he told me finally he was not at her house and did not sleep with her. He said they were talking at a Diner. I really want to believe him but it is so hard. As you all know our cell phones got turned off about 1 month ago. Well on Friday H told me he got his own phone about 2 weeks ago. He said he had to tell me because we our trying to be completely open and honest with each other. Well I went nuts on him about the phone and he really couldn't understand why. He seems to understand nothing right now..its so frustrating. I proceeded to LB big time..I couldn't help it. I told him how self-centered, insensitive and inconsiderate he was. I dont have a phone anymore because of him running up the bill talking to OW. We spent Friday at home together, it was okay..we rented a movie had a couple of drinks..no fighting no talk about OW or A. Around 2:00am, I told him I could not do this anymore, if he was to continue to have any contact OW he was not going to have any contact with me or our children. Saturday we talked for about 2 hours and really tried to focus on us. It was somewhat constructive. But then on Easter, I went to my brothers with the kids and H stayed home and did some things that had to be done for our business. When I came home OW phone number was on my caller ID..she has some pretty big ones. And then his cell phone rang with her number on it. I left the house for about 1 hour and went to my sisters..I just couldn't be there. Then about 1:00am I was laying on the couch and he was on the computer in the other room. His cell phone rings and it is OW. He sits there with me in the other room and talks to her. When I came in the room he went outside to finish his conversation. When he came in I told him once again I meant everything I said to him on Friday night..I was ready, willing and able to have NC with him. I also said last night I was not going to allow him to totally disrespect me and my family any more by talking to her in our home. I just dont know if this is the way I should be going about this..Any thoughts please

My thoughts.....you have enabled his relationship, emotional and sexual. This is very very dangerous to your mental health and physical health. He doesn't see anything wrong with this, but you MUST! THIS IS YOUR LIFE FOR CHRIST SAKES! His choice, either OW your you and his family, but he can't have both anymore. If you can't do a PLAN B then PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE INSIST HE USE CONDOMS IF YOU ARE GOING TO CONTINUE HAVING SEX WITH HIM! It's obvious that your health is not important to him right not, so you have to take care of yourself. You need to be here to raise your children, SOMEONE HAS TO BE THE ADULT FOR YOUR KIDS!

<small>[ April 21, 2003, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: trying2_4give ]</small>

LISA- do what ever is in your heart , YOU know this man better then any of us .

If you feel that you can deal with PLAN A with bounderies then you are not in my opion a DOORMAT maybe I can say that cause I am dea,ing with this as well . OW in picture to .

It is very sad and lonely only you know how much you can endure .

IS it disrespectful ? yes the hole situation is disrespectful .
KNOW your dead line make it clear , be ready to act on it .

JMVHO and I have done this DO NOT SAY IT AND NOT FOLLOW THROUGH ,

Everyone's WS is different so what works for one WILL not work for another .

SOME here have said, me or her finnal right here roght now , and they got N/C .

That is great, wonderful , but demands on some WS and deeper FOG does not allow that for others .

SET a dead line in 3mon or 6 mon thats it go to PLAN B .

BUT I REPEAT do not start off like this telling him N/C ME OR OW right now and then not follow through , I know you are angree at that moment and want to shake and snap him out of it but it won't work if you don't follow through .

So when it comes to DEMANDS do not do it unless you are prepared for it at that moment .

YOU can tell him staight out this will not be your decion forever and in order to work on our M there needs to be N/C .

I will give you your space to deal with your choices , BUT I will not wait forever .
AND I have choices to .
Then set some bounderies about what ever , never take OW calls in my house around my children ect.
AND NEVER EVER ALLOW her to call my HOME , unless she wants to talk to ME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just some ideas , I pray for you , be strong and work on you and kids . LIFE is still going on enjoy it , do not put life on hold for this , yes your in it but DO NOT let there A become WHO YOU ARE .

ONLY YOU KNOW WHEN ENOUGH IS ENOUGH , YOU'LL FEEL IT .

Lisa if you don't follow through on what you've told him...he will never believe you. He doesn't have the right to do this!!! Would he willing inflict this kind of pain on even a stranger?! For heavens sake, you are his wife and the mother of his children!!

I once told my H shortly after dday when I caught him in another lie that he used to be my hero and I was now starting to think of him as a sociopathic monster and I couldn't live with someone like that. I couldn't raise my children with someone like that!

I told him that I loved him, wanted him, believed in him but if he wanted out...I would give him a "good" divorce as long as he got help! If not not only would I give him a "bad" divorce but he was not going to have contact with our children while he was acting like this....this is not the values we agreed to teach our children.

I didn't want our children raised by someone who thought it was okay to hurt the ones you love for selfish reasons, that it is okay to lie, okay to cheat, etc. I also didn't want them to be raised thinking that enabling this behaviour was acceptable.

This really got to him...this wasn't the type of person or father he'd been and he didn't want to be like that now. He agreed he needed help and would do whatever was necessary...he did that and we are in an awesome place now. If you'd like to you can read some of my posts from the December, January, February timeframe and see how we progressed to point we're at now.

PLEASE DO NOT ALLOW YOUR HUSBAND TO DO THIS TO YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN!!! THIS WORLD IS A BAD ENOUGH PLACE WITHOUT US ALLOWING MORE BADNESS TO HAPPEN! YOU AND YOUR CHILDREN DESERVE A BETTER LIFE.

Please print all or some of this out and leave it for him to read!

Yes everyone knows what how much they can endure. But that makes NOT ONE BIT OF DIFFERENCE when it comes to being HIV+ or living with AIDS! Make sure you use CONDOMS and get tested! NO AMOUNT OF PLAN A IS HELPFUL WHEN IT COMES TO THAT DISEASE! TO HELL WITH EVERYONE ELSE - PROTECT YOURSELF!

Hi Everyone,

I haven't posted in a few days..they have been really tough days. H again saw OW on Tuesday night and didn't come home until 4:00am. He told me they were at a bar shooting pool and that he didn't do anything. I told him I guess you think that its okay then. I also said obviously he could not tell the difference between right and wrong anymore. I really said some nasty things to him Wednesday afternoon and told him I could not go on like this anymore. I told him he did not love me anymore. He said that was not true. He then asked me why I thought he saw her on Tues. and I said you saw her because you love her. Then I said if you choose to see her instead of coming home to me and your family then your feelings for her must be alot stronger than they are for me. He said I dont think so. Once again he said this cant continue but offers no solution to the problem. Then this morning while lying in bed I told him "this was literally killing me and I couldn't do it anymore. I said if something does not change I was done. I was going to be out of his life. I said whats the difference I was already not a part of his life anymore." Then I went downstairs and cried and cried. He got ready for work and basically said nothing to me. Then I tried to talk to him and he cant hear a word I say anymore. I told him that and he said he was leaving. Just walked out on me leaving me a total wreck. I guess this is what hurts the most, that he can act like this to me like I was the one having the A. I know if the tables were turned and he basically said that to me I would be doing everything in my power to change the situation. I would least say Baby I dont want that..please dont say that. Know what I mean. Any thoughts on the matter??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

LISA I can't begin to tell you how my heart goes out to you , Your last post is EXACTLY what I am doing every day of my life for the past 14 mon.

I have been on MB since around DEC. 2002 , I have read everything and aplyed nothing .

I am trying desparately , to start now with the help of some very fine people here .

My only advice to you is KNOW what you want .
If it is one last effort to save your M , then apply princepals of MB NOW , PLAN A .

GET your self on a healing path , DO NOT LET this A become WHO you are , or dictate your life you !!

If you need the reality of reading the mistakes your making by trying to make him see or here logic then go to my POST IN GENERAL QUESTIONS.

I have said and done exactly what you stayed in your last post , you want him to SNAP out of it just like that and see everything and are more upset that the words you say or the tears you cry have no affect on him and then that enters your ANGER , then the THREATS .

IF your ready go to PLAN B , if not stay in PLAN A BUT get a PLAN and stick to it no THREATS till there not THREATS and you are ready to take action on what you say .

I am not bashing you in any way , I support your decision to save your M and would love to see you HAPPY and never be here again .

Stop responding to him , If your going to let him stay well then do things for you and be there for him , but not there for his A .

READ alot here it will help you , also listen to the responses you get , I am not saying live and die by them but take them in people are here to do many things for you .

THEY will here you vent .
They will help calm you down .
They are a shoulder to cry on .
They will give ADVICE according to there persomal experances and to MB princapals that you may not understand or misinterpet .

I will say one thing JMVHO you will be better off if he decides to leave , the A going on in your face is very diffucult and that is why it really is not suggested here .
YES people do PLAN A for some time while WS is fence sitting or still have contact , BUT it is not suggested for long period of time .

And as far as time frames go it is up to the indivual and how much you think you are accomplishing and how it is affecting your health in all manners .

HOPE you feel alittle better as the day goes on .
If you need to vent or evrn pity yourself LOL once in awhile give a yell I will be here for you always listening .

<small>[ April 24, 2003, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: 3isacrowd ]</small>

Thanks 3..

Your words mean alot. I started to Plan A a couple of weeks ago and I felt good. By the end of the first week H said to me "what are you up to?" I said nothing and then he said to me it wasn't good that I wasnt talking about A anymore." How am I suppose to act? I guess I need to start Plan A again.

I talked to H while he was working today..The past 24hrs have been particulary difficult. I told him I was sorry for how I was acting. It wasn't me. He told me to stop. He said I have every right to say what I have been saying to him and need not apologize at all. He told me he has been trying to write me letter the past couple of days but cant because he feels he has no right to try to explain his feelings to me anymore. I guess basically why he cant stop seeing OW.

H has been in individual couseling for about 8 weeks now. But we have not been to MC together. His cousellor doesnt think we are at that stage yet. I guess he determines that from his sessions with H. I said I feel as though we should be seeing someone together and H has said no up to this point. Today on the phone he said he thought we needed to see someone together right now before something drastic happens that we will both regret. I said okay. But then he went on to say that he was not going to have any expectations that this was going to work out. H also said he was not going to stop seeing OW. I really cant understand him anymore what so ever. I told him there was no way I believed we could work on M with OW still in the picture. He said didnt know what to say to me anymore. Any thoughts please??

Lisa call the Harley's counseling line and set up an appt ASAP. You can't go on like this. What is this doing to you and your children?

Get him to do a call with you...they are great!

Hey everyone,

I need alittle help..I need thoughts on my last post. Does anymore believe H and I can start to go to a MC while the OW is still in the picture. He told me outright he was not going to stop seeing her. Should I start to Plan A again? This is really getting hard..I am getting to the point were I cant even look at H anymore. I told him that and he said I told you that would happen. What he means is that when I told him I can forgive him and I still wanted him and our M ( I have been telling him this since dday 2/14/03), he told me he didnt think I meant it and probably couldnt get past this and forgive him like I said. Well this morning when I told him I couldnt look at him anymore and he said "see I told you." I said to him it was not because of the the initial A. It was because of his actions now. 10 weeks later and he is still seeing and talking to OW. I said I cant look at you because how you are treating me these past 10 weeks. He has made very few attempts to even try to stop contact. This is why it is getting so hard. Any thoughts please.

Lisa...once again...call the Harley's and set up an appointment!

He is going to do this as long as you allow him too!

Lisa, heed the advice and get some help. I know how you feel...my H left OW and went straight to ex-wife...talk about a slap in the face. However, what's I'm saying is...getting some help will assist in dealing with this. I'm in the exact same situation that you are in. My H did everything; it is almost as though it were a WS mold...hehehehe. WS do what they do, the emotional abuse, because we ALLOW them to do it to us. I too play the martyr and unfortunately, that's what we are. You need to recognize yourself and your wonderful qualities....you must recognize what he is doing and the selfishness of his acts. You must recognize that you cannot OWN his PROBLEMS or his ACTIONS. One of my lines in my letter to my husband was......

Once I recognized that it was your life to live and yours alone, I was able to recognize that I must move on. He called me, asking what the hell I was talking about, but you know what....he's thinking....stop crying, at least in front of him. Anger is not good either, but crying is the worst....it doesn't WORK...TRUST ME, I DID IT! Wipe your tears and put in your head, for every tear that you shed over him, that is one degree stronger you will be when this is all over. Believe in you LISA!

Lisa , I told you in my last post , basicly your banging your head in to a brick wall . He can not hear you . HE is scared , selfish , confused, ashamed , angry , FFFFFFFFFOOOOOOOOOGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!

You will not get anywhere speaking to with logic he is not there yet .

Do what others told you call for counsouling .

Talk to SH he may be able to shead some light your way weather you are not PLAN A right , weather you should continue with him seeing OW or go to PLAN B , Or ask him to at least leave and not cut all contact .

I understand exactly what you said to WS about forgiving the A , but the thing is you where ready to forgive A and not throw it up in his face and work on M . BUT your way was without contact . Apparently his is to see OW and see if you can get past it all at the same time . (NOT)

Your not dealing with him as a hole person that you have know . DO you get that ? HE is not him self . I can not give you the answers cause I would not be here if I had them ( well maybe to share them LOL)

I can tell you from experiance you are going down a very emtionaly bad road .

Contact in your face is hell , and it prevents you from doing PLAN A , It does not help your personal recovery , IT is D-DAY every time he sees OW .

I can also tell you as many here probbly could that getting him out while contact to OW is ongoing may be painful in begining but will help you much faster .

It can also snap him out of FOG possiable faster .

He will have to see life without his family . He will see and face his mistake on his own .

YOU can not make him see that , cause when you do it all he thinks is your presuring him and fighting with him .

Thanks 3 and Karena,

I realy hear you guys..but why is it so hard to apply what we all alreasy know? This week has been incredibly painful and difficult. H just seems so messed up right now. I am worried about him. I think I need a day away from everyone and everything to re-evaluate the situation. Talk to you real soon.

Why is it so hard to apply what we already know ?

That is a question that has alot of meanings , I would say fear , we don't know the out come .
If it we knew that we do PLAN B and it will make them come running and end A we do it right ?

If you let him stay the corse and do a wonderful PALN A and knew for a fact he would snap out of fog , YOU would continue right ?

YOU see we don't always apply what we KNOW to be RIGHT because we are not ready for the OUTCOME .
JMVHO .

MY personal feeling is the only thing a BS should do first and for most is fix them self inside and out .

Only reason I say this is because that is the only way all the rest of the answers will come to you . (AGAIN JMO)

KNOW one should make a decision to do something they do not want to do , if there is dought then your not ready for that yet .

I guess that is some what of the WS thing to . If they are not ready , willing , and able to give up the OP they are not going to . NO MATTER how hard we bang our head against the wall .

They say when someone close to you dies , DO NOT make any major decisions for at least a year .

WEll it is kind of the same thing , you must greive to heal .

Set aside the time to really think about you the INDIVIDUAL and pay attention to your pain ,you have the right to feel hurt , pitty , sorry for your self . Confromt these emotions do not run from them .

I hope your past couple of days where better .

Thanks 3,

It makes a whole lot more sense the way you say it. I cant figure anything out right now, I guess I am in the FFFFOOOGGG. (ha ha).

Anyway, H and I have been talking and fighting for days now it seems. I have said some terrible things. He is in Individual counseling himself and now we have decided to go together. As far as OW and contact it is still continuing. We talked about that alot today. He continues to tell me it is not a choice between the two of us. He even went as far as to say he has no intentions of leaving me for her. Then I ask WHY??? He also said he felt she did not fulfill and needs that I did not fulfill. I said I find that hard to beleive because then he should be able to stop contact and work on M. He then said to me that is why he thought we should go to MC together because maybe there was something she fulfilled that I didnt. Also to work on some pre-A issues we have. At first I told him I didnt think I could go while there was still contact with OW, but then as we talked more I said I thought it was a good idea.

I think it is time to re-establish my Plan A like I was doing a few weeks ago. If nothing else it seemed to help me. I need to grab hold of my emotions and take a deep breathe.

Hey Everyone,

The past few days have been better..I am feeling better. H and I have been having talks not fights now and for the most part I have been able to keep my emotions in tact. I have gone back to Plan A. It is so true if you can stick to it..it does make you feel so much better. I have felt better the last few days. A least I have been able to focus on my daily responsibilities.

As far as where H and I are right now..He has still been talking to her but I dont believe he has seen her in a week. Not 100% sure, but in Plan A..he is gonna do what he is goona do. I am not going to react to ih or him anymore. We have decided to see MC together while he continues IC. Our 1st appt. is next Friday. We have not fought in two days and that feels pretty nice. He even has started to call me while he is working just to talk. He used to do that all the time but it basically stopped when he started calling OW when he had any free time. Yesterday we talked for 45 mins. while he was working. It felt good.

I have lost about 30lbs since d-day. The past couple of weeks I have been trying to do things for in between all the emotions and fights. I have bought some new clothes and have started to work on my summer tan already. I think H. notices too because before he left for work today he stopped and gave me a kiss and told me how good I look.

Hopefully I can stick to Plan A this time and not lose my way again. And hopefully MC can help us with pre A issues. It has almost been 3 months since d-day and from what I have read at MB and SAA most A die a natural death within 6 months of discovery...hey I am half way there. Thanks for listening.

Lisa,

I have read all of your posts under this topic, I apologize for not reading everybody else's replies.

I am a FWH and I get disgusted thinking about what I put my W through. I can't believe everything that he continues to put you through. The cell phone bill, the continuous contact, the sexual contact with OW while he continuous to be intimate with you.

I do have one question topic, you might not be able to answer it and that is okay:

If he has been in IC for 12 weeks (or so), what do they work on? Is the counselor aware of the A and suportive of it? Is the counselor not supportive of your M?

I was going to an IC (not for the moment due to no ins.) and I feel that the counselor should be helping the patient with what the patient finds to be important. The counelor should be doing things to help. In the case of your H and his IC; what is it, a chance to shoot the breeze?

I am sorry if I seem angry or sarcastic. I wish I could talk to your H and smack some sense into him. I know we (WS) go through that FOG stage, but there comes a point when you, as a BS, can only take so much.

I understand that he says that he wants to quit the A, but what has he done aside from the ENQ's? It is a good sign for him to be asking for help, but it just that, he has to be doing some of the quitting too. Does he expect you to quit his A for him? Has he done any reading, done anymore Q's, like the LBQ? I find it hard to believe he truly understand your EN's if he has no trouble talking to OW, seeing OW, sleeping with OW. What was the ENQ to him, a "oh, by the way, if I (him) ever get around to caring about my wife, this is what is important to her."

Is he willing to do more. I find some of the Dr. Phil shows to be very helpful and to the point. It shows both sides of the A, and maybe your H could relate to someone and see what they are doing to their famiy.

I will cut it off there to give you a chance to reply to those questions. I wish you luck. I hope he will wake up one of these days and realize what he is doing to you and your family.

Dear Pookey,

Thanks for the reply..To answer some of your questions. With regards to OW, I asked him outright if he is still sleeping with her and he told me he hasn't in a while. I want to believe him and I think I do because we promised each other complete honesty while trying to get through this. And so far we have been. Also the last couple of times he has seen her, when he comes home he can look me in the eye, before when he came home and I know he slept with her he could not look at me. Believe me I am not defending him in any such way, I just stating my gut feelings. As far as contact, yes they are still talking, but the last week has been different. From what I gather with his cell phone, it looks as though she is doing all the contact. Her number has not been on the outgoing call record all week..I have been checking it every day. OW im'ed him last night while we were on the computer and was a total B***h to him..she even said "you didnt call at all today." I think this maybe burning its self out.

As far as our relationship this week,,its has been better. I have been able to keep my emotions in tact and have conversations with WH about everything without losing it. We have even gone back to calling each other serveral times a day while he is working and I am home with the babies just to say hi and see how each others day is going. We have not done that in such a long time. He used spend his free time at work talking to OW..From what I gather that is also slowing down. He has been home every night this week and we have been spending time together. He is starting to respond to me alittle better and I feel this is because I am not LBing anymore. As far as him trying to help me..I dont think he can do that just yet. He is having a very hard time dealing with who he thinks he has become. You know, its like you cant love someone else until you love yourself. Pookey I know the wonderful man I met and fell in love and married is still there.

In regards to counseling, yes the counselor knows about the A. My WH has had a tough life for someone who is only 28. But believe me he will never say that or feel any pity for himself. It has only made him more determined to be the best he can be. But somewhere this past year he has lost that feeling. With that said, I do believe he has many unresolved issues from his childhood which are coming into play now, although he does not see it that way. I know they have talked about many aspects of his life..his childhood, his parents, us being a blended family, all our kids (5) and having our own business. I think the couselor is trying to get him to realize and understand how he has gotten to this point. I think this is okay, because I have been telling him I thought he needed couseling for the past 5 years to deal with the events of his past. My only regret that it took an A for him to finally realize that. We have an appt with another MC, that is only going to deal with us as a couple. Our 1st appt. is next Friday.

He has done some reading, anything I give him he will read. But my feeling is that he is still very FOGGY and therefore believes it does not apply to him. I dont get upset, I just keep giving him stuff to read. I also e-mail him stuff to read. He is open to it..so I guess that is a start. I am going to continue to focus on myself and my family..I honestly believe he sees the difference. Sorry so long..thanks for the response and any thougths from you perspective is very insightful. Talk to you soon.

<small>[ May 01, 2003, 07:19 AM: Message edited by: Lisa0705 ]</small>