Hi all,

I'm new to this site and these forums. Here's a little bit of info. about my wife and me.

I am 38, she'll be 38 on 4-21. We have been together for 19 years and married for 17 years last December. We have 3 fantastic children who are 10F, 13F, 16M. We have a home and decent jobs.
Money has always been tight but it's not really an issue. Here's our problem...

I've been reading a lot of Dr. Harley's methods here and I now know exactly what I've been doing wrong for the past 17 yrs. of marriage.

We have both had 1 affair. Last year at this time we almost ended everything because she wasn't meeting my emotional needs and I met a woman online who was. Of course, I wasn't meeting my wife's emotional needs either...but I didn't realize it until just now. We "fixed" everything..she has made every effort to change things I asked her to change and things were SO good for the past year...but again I slipped into my "shell" and withdrew from her..pushing her away without even realizing the damage I was doing. I started talking to women online again and on the phone (she found a cell phone that I had hidden and I lied about it when she confronted me). She was devastated.
She then began (or had already begun) to have a relationship with one of her co-workers (nothing sexual she claims). But she calls him a "friend" that she bonded with because he is there for her when she needs him.

She is convinced that our marriage is over and that I will never change and that she will be hurt like this again. I have been trying to tell her how much I love her and how important she is to me...through a lot of tears and pain (for both of us) and she completely has her guard up and will not even let me in. She is telling her co-worker that she loves him, but she says to me that she has no intentions of being with him. She is just tired of trying to make our marriage work. I know it can be saved and I know I can fulfill her needs..but I just can't get her to LET me in....she's so afraid that I'll hurt her again.
I've hit rock-bottom now...I'm now fully aware that it takes more than just love to hold a marriage together.
I need help! How can I get her to believe me...and make her fall in love with me again if she isn't even willing to do that?
Is all lost? Please help...if you can...we were SO in love just a few short months ago. Now she won't even tell me she loves me when I say it to her.

Please help if you can!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have been trying to tell her how much I love her and how important she is to me </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't tell her, show her. It's Plan A time for you. She is in withdrawal. There is a imbedded link to an explanation of Plan A and Plan B in the link in my signature line. Though Plan A is described in that link as a strategy for separating a spouse from a lover, it is also a strategy for bringing someone out of withdrawal. Gary Smalley has written a lot on the subject as well, though he calls it "getting someone to open up when they have a closed spirit".

Note that becasue she is in withdrawal, you will probably not see any appreciation for your efforts. Don't get discouraged, this is normal. People in withdrawal sort of "stick there heads out of their shell" and loook around every once in a while, but you may be totally unaware of it when it happens. So, it is important that your Plan A be consistent, so when she opens that window, she sees the new you. Since you changed and regressed once before, it will be particularly difficult for you to convince her. Difficult is not impossible.

Thank you for that quick reply, John!

Here lies the problem...she's got a bond with her co-worker now and refuses to stop talking to him.
I have been trying to show her and trying to spend alone-time with her, but she doesn't even want to do that. It's a cold side I've never seen come from her before. She keeps saying I "broke" her will to try anymore.
I am so lost and so frustrated...as well as hurt and scared of losing everything I love in my life.
I will read the link you have in your sig. Thank you!

Seacoast,

Our stories are very similar and I want to post more but I am at work so I can't right now. You can look at some of my recent posts. I had a thread "I was a BS now I am a WS" a while back.

You will probably hear it again but you control only yourself and your reactions to her. She is gonna do what she wants to and you can't change that. Obviously there was something about the "old" you that she didn't trust. That will be a long road so be patience. You didn't get to this place over night.

Let her know that you are willing to change and want her help. You can't make her do anything. She has to want it or at least be willing which will be difficult because of the OM.

I know that this sucks and the feelings that you have are overwhelming at times (most). Work on you and what you can chane about yourself. Seeing an IC will at least show her you are serious about changing and might help to start building some trust back.

Patience, patience, patience
God bless and Good luck

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Here lies the problem...she's got a bond with her co-worker now and refuses to stop talking to him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right, she is having an emotional affair with him. And the first step in dealing with an affair is?

Plan A. Get going.

From a woman's POV: Yes, please follow John's advice, it's the quickest and surest method for SHOWING your W that you are truly remorseful and are willing to make the changes within yourself and in your marriage to make sure that these betrayals do not again become an issue.

You've got a lot of work ahead of you. One betrayal is terrible, another after being forgiven and having the trust be re-established, is almost...I repeat...almost too much to bear.

Seek out professional help for BOTH of you. Individual counseling to do some self-discovery and learn what you each need and marriage counseling to work on those issues within the marriage where improvement is needed. Do NOT try to do this alone...you need help and so does your W.

As John stated...beganning Plan A is a great start. But you can NOT expect your W to immediately see all the hard work you will be doing. She's behind a wall that she's carefully built to keep her protected from further harm and sorrow of your making. She's developed a "friendship" which only makes this wall stronger and harder for you to tear down.

Yes, you do have a right to tell her that her friendship is not acceptable to the MARRIAGE...not only to you. She is sharing private and personal information to a third party about the marriage without your consent or approval and this is a "no-no". Now you can NOT control what she does about this "friendship"...only she controls what she does or doesn't do. However, you can be firm without being controling or nasty, that this friendship is unhealthy for your marriage and you would appreciate her efforts to end it. (See plan A for help in this.)

Good Luck!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SeaCoast:
<strong>I started talking to women online again and on the phone (she found a cell phone that I had hidden and I lied about it when she confronted me). She was devastated.
...

She is convinced that our marriage is over and that I will never change and that she will be hurt like this again.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She should be convinced - you have done an excellent job of convincing her that she will be hurt again, and that you will never change.

You can see by my signature line, my FWH did an excellent job of convincing me as well. With each betrayal he saw the light and would never do it again. It is an ongoing struggle, but at least for now, we seem to be winning the battle.

This last bout has not been easy for me to overcome, and for many months I was uncommitted. To this day I tell him regularly that I do not have full trust in him, I question how is faring against his addiction (in a loving way, honestly!). But...it took a long time to get here, a long painful time.

Fortunately, our problems weren't exacerbated by my being in love with anyone else, but then again, he wasn't in love with the online women either.

I can't tell how long it has been since you ended your last affair, but I can tell you that your wife can recover, can regain her love, and regain a good measure of trust. You can have a happy relationship. But it takes a long time, and a lot of thankless work on your part (and hers too).

Thank you all for your replies.

She isn't willing to try. We just had another blow out argument because she left work and "drove around" for an hour...AGAIN.

I'm afraid it's hopeless.....she doesn't want to try. She has given up completely and is calling lawyers to find out what her options are and so on.

Just a point...I'm almost certain she began her "bonding" with her co-worker BEFORE she found my hidden cell phone.

What a mess. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We just had another blow out argument </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Blow out arguments are not allowed in Plan A. It takes two people to argue. You haven't done your reading. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm afraid it's hopeless..... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's not usually REALLY hopeless until both parties give up (though it's true that at 2 years past the divorce your odds drop considerably). Read the stuff we recommended. Read every link on the page that is linked in my sig line. The odds are about 99% that she is having an affair (I can't tell you how many WS's like to just "drive around" for an hour or two periodically <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ). Affairs do not usually end marriages. Failing to deal with the marital conditions that led to the affair end marriages.

<small>[ April 16, 2003, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

What am i supposed to do or say when I ask her where she's been and she gets defensive and standoffish?
If i'm 90% certain she was with the guy...am I just supposed to accept it and hope it goes away? How can I get rid of him if she works with him, talks to him daily and refuses to stop talking to him and refuses to work it out with me?
(short of kicking his a$$)

I have seen it said many times on this website... fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

It will take more than words for you to convince her of anything. Don't worry about OM, worry about yourself. If you make demands on her regarding OM, she will only run to him more. JMHO

SeaCoast:

"What am i supposed to do or say when I ask her where she's been and she gets defensive and standoffish?"

Dont' ask. Ignore her behavior. You KNOW she's having an EA, possibly even a PA. Telling her what to do won't get you what you want. Living by example might. Wait a minute, it WILL, because you will find that living up to what you believe IS what you want. If she wants that too, she'll be attracted to that change in you.

"If i'm 90% certain she was with the guy...am I just supposed to accept it and hope it goes away?"

Plan A may seem like you're doing this, but it's not. The point is that you can't change HER, so don't try. You can only change you.

"How can I get rid of him if she works with him, talks to him daily and refuses to stop talking to him and refuses to work it out with me?"

You can't. You can only plan A and let HER get rid of him. This is down the road, though. You have plenty to occupy your thoughts and activities for now. ...like your kids!

"(short of kicking his a$$)"

This won't work, even if you DON'T wind up in jail for assault.

Please take care. I know how hard it is.
-Qfwfq

I've got a feeling she started this "bonding" before she found your cell phone, too. But...is that surprising? You've been spending your time, energy, thought, affections with someone else...exactly how much was left over to share with your W?

While many times a BS doesn't really know for sure they are being betrayed, they often do realize that thier spouse is no longer putting effort into being a partner in the marriage. Sure, you may have shown up each night and climbed into bed...but were you investing your energy in the marriage or were you already "drained"?

You've got to give your W a lot of space. Right now she may be in a full-blown affair, then again, she may be a relationship (which is not right) trying to get some of her own needs fullfilled which you've been too busy with your cell phone to fill.

It's not that unusual for a WS to discover after d-day that they too have been betrayed during the course of their own affair. When you open that door to betrayal, you do open one for your spouse as well. True, most BS do not also have affairs...but some do. This in no way means that they are justified...there is NO REASON to have an affair. But facts are facts. You left the marriage without informing your wife that you were leaving. You left emotionally. That is the bond you broke with your W when you entered into your affair...and she may well have known that bond was broken.

Now, you have got to "walk the walk" and "talk the talk" and the two must be the same! Let your actions speak for you. Get into counseling, even if she isn't willing at this time. Show her your committment to making yourself a better person and partner. Show her you are committed to trying to save your marriage, that it has value and worth...as does she.

I fear this will be a terrible time for you, it's going to be very difficult for her to want to try again...especially if she is having some of her needs met by another who is encouraging her to only think of herself.

Read plan A...take from it what you believe will benefit your marriage. It can be a great plan, but it is NOT an easy one if one partner is too afraid or too confused.

Good Luck! (ps...sorry if I was harsh, but you must realize what has happened.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've got a feeling she started this "bonding" before she found your cell phone, too. But...is that surprising? You've been spending your time, energy, thought, affections with someone else...exactly how much was left over to share with your W? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand that now...i'm just hoping and praying it's not too late, but I'm thinking it is because she just seem to want "US" anymore...or me for that matter.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> While many times a BS doesn't really know for sure they are being betrayed, they often do realize that thier spouse is no longer putting effort into being a partner in the marriage. Sure, you may have shown up each night and climbed into bed...but were you investing your energy in the marriage or were you already "drained"? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's just it...i wasn't "drained" and wasn't "out of love" with her. I'm not sure what was missing and why I found the need to talk to girls on the phone.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You've got to give your W a lot of space.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will try to do that...it's just very difficult because as soon as she starts talking to me in a normal manner I get my hopes up and think we can make it work...but then she sometimes reminds me that it's not going to happen.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Right now she may be in a full-blown affair, then again, she may be a relationship (which is not right) trying to get some of her own needs fullfilled which you've been too busy with your cell phone to fill.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it's the latter. I don't think it's a full-blown affair and after talking to her tonight, I'm almost certain it's not going that far as of yet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's not that unusual for a WS to discover after d-day that they too have been betrayed during the course of their own affair. When you open that door to betrayal, you do open one for your spouse as well. True, most BS do not also have affairs...but some do. This in no way means that they are justified...there is NO REASON to have an affair. But facts are facts. You left the marriage without informing your wife that you were leaving. You left emotionally. That is the bond you broke with your W when you entered into your affair...and she may well have known that bond was broken. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree..I did leave emotionally..once again.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Now, you have got to "walk the walk" and "talk the talk" and the two must be the same! Let your actions speak for you. Get into counseling, even if she isn't willing at this time. Show her your committment to making yourself a better person and partner. Show her you are committed to trying to save your marriage, that it has value and worth...as does she.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want to do this so bad, but I'm feeling like it will get me nowhere with her...she just seems so adamant about us ending it. Like there is absolutely no chance...she keeps saying she can't take the chance of being hurt like this again which I fully understand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I fear this will be a terrible time for you, it's going to be very difficult for her to want to try again...especially if she is having some of her needs met by another who is encouraging her to only think of herself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's not only him...it's her "friend" as well that keeps telling her that her happiness comes before everything and when she's happy our children will be happy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Read plan A...take from it what you believe will benefit your marriage. It can be a great plan, but it is NOT an easy one if one partner is too afraid or too confused.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will read it again.

Here's something I'm not sure about...she took her wedding ring off when the everything came out in the open and she hasn't put it on since...i keep trying to take mine off as well but I can't seem to keep it off for more than a few hours. Should I take it off or keep it on? Is taking it off a sign of giving up?

BTW....what does WS and BS mean?

What do you think of this idea? Anyone?

Should I suggest a situation where we will just live together, but more as friends or roommates with no expectations? My reasoning is this:

a. It will keep our family together.
b. We won't have to lose our home.
c. We won't have to go through the incredible financial hardship that will come with divorce or physical seperation.
d. It will give me time to improve myself and work on "us" in a way she may not even notice...then possibly wake up one day and realize that things can be better and stay that way.

Good idea? Bad idea? Alternative ideas?

Thanks so much!

Acronyms, Smilies, UBB Codes

I think I understand why you are suggesting the friend/roomate solution, because you are having trouble managing your expectations of her. When she responds "normally" you get your hopes up, and it is just too hard to have them repeatedly crushed. In Plan A, you also have to manage your expectations, so that does not happen. However, in the friend/roomate scenario, you are giving her tacit permission to be unfaithful to you. This is a very, VERY bad idea, and it will still hurt when she does - despite your "agreement". So in answer to your question: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Good idea? Bad idea? Alternative ideas? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EXTREMELY bad idea. Use Plan A. Just because you don't understand it yet and it is hard to do is no excuse. Keep reading. I will try to get another poster to check in on this thread with some plan A advice. Do a search on "Plan A" from the Marriagebuilders home page. As for hard - THERE IS NO EASY PATH out of your situation. Stop looking for one. The ones that look easy from here are not, and lead to worse places than where you are. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I want to do this so bad, but I'm feeling like it will get me nowhere with her... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told you you would not be aware when she poked her head out, didn't I? Don't trust your feelings in this particular situation - they will betray you. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> she just seems so adamant about us ending it. Like there is absolutely no chance...she keeps saying she can't take the chance of being hurt like this again which I fully understand. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like I said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> J39 wrote:
Since you changed and regressed once before, it will be particularly difficult for you to convince her. Difficult is not impossible. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SC wrote:
It's not only him...it's her "friend" as well that keeps telling her that her happiness comes before everything and when she's happy our children will be happy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, her friend is wrong. Her children will be happy when their parents have a good marriage. So will she, so don't think I don't think her happiness is important - it is, and you have not been making her happy. The problem is that she does not think a good marriage with you is possible right now, so you have to convince her - with your ACTIONS, not words. Did I mention that you should be in Plan A? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> If she is happy and divorced, her (your) children will be devastated. That's what all the research says. It also says that "happy" and "divorced" usually do not describe the same person. Will the children learn to cope? Probably. Will they carry the scars for life? Yes.

This brings up one other thing that I learned that I would like to share. For 17 years, I had a bad marriage. Then DDay happened, we started reading and applying the information we found here, in Harley's books and in Gary Smalley's books (GS's marriage ones, not his family ones), and I found that not only were my children happier because mom and dad were doing better, but I could also apply what I was learning about my relationship with my wife to my relationships with my children. So my relationships with them got better just because I understood them better and knew better how to communicate with them. When you learn how to respectfully investigate the feelings behind the words you hear from your wife, you can apply that skill to anyone - and it makes a huge difference in the way you relate to them.

I want to give you a hint about what you are working for in Plan A. You said she claimed she "drove around for an hour" rather than come home, and you suspect (probably correctly) that she spent some time with the OM. Your goal in Plan A is to make the time you spend together BETTER and MORE FUN than the time she spends with the OM, so that when she has a free hour, she will WANT to come home and spend it with you. Ragging on her about the time she spends with the OM will not acheive that goal. So that's why Q's answer your question: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What am i supposed to do or say when I ask her where she's been and she gets defensive and standoffish? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">is correct. The most you could possibly say about the missing hour during Plan A is: "Gee, I really missed having you home so we could have more time to "X".", where "X" is something SHE really likes to do with you, and preferably that you will do together in the time you DO have remaining after the hour delay.

SC: I've got some more suggested reading material: MM thread I & MM Thread II The original poster, Marathonman, was in a situation similar to yours. Mortarman, one of the people that replied to him, was in a similar but worse situation, and he and his wife are now in recovery. Read at least three or four of Mortarman's replies in each thread. It will give you a good idea about what you have to do.

<small>[ April 17, 2003, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

Thanks again, J

The only problem with that 1-hour of "free time" she has is that I'm usually in work. Yesterday I left work early...YES to check up on her. Bad idea I know, but it is very difficult to sit in work and stew all day just wondering what's going on. (as I'm sure you know) I'm not doing it again.

Something I didn't mention before was that I was drinking quite a bit throughout our marriage. Not falling-down drunk or abusive...but everyday drinking. When it all came down...I quit and haven't had a beer in 9 days and have no intentions of starting again.

April 17, 2003 - Plan A started.

Question: Should I make her aware that I'm TRYING to make her fall in love with me again? I'm afraid that might just push her away further.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Should I make her aware that I'm TRYING to make her fall in love with me again? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not in my opinion. Actions, not words.

That said, you should look seriously at how you converse with her. That is almost always a problem. Most guys do not know how to draw out the feelings behind the words that their wife says, and therefore miss 3/4ths of what their wife is trying to communicate.

KEEP THE RING ON! If you want to be married, then do those things which a married man does, wearing your ring should be one of them. (I also removed my ring...H never did.)

BW=betrayed wife, WS=wayward spouse

Do NOT move out of your home. It's very difficult to work on a marriage when you aren't there to work on one.

Counseling may or may not "get you somewhere" with your W...but it will help you and it shows a committment to the marriage. It takes ACTION to prove that you are willing to do whatever it takes, it's only one tool, but it can be a powerful one.

Be HONEST, about how you feel and what you think, about your past if asked for and about your hopes and dreams for the future. Don't push this truth down your W's throat, but if it comes up...be honest. SHOW her that you're willing to live a true partnership with her, with no hidden areas of your life. Give her access to all email accounts, voice mail, whatever you can think of that you've heretofore kept secret.

I'm glad you feel that her "friendship" hasn't gone too far outside the bounds of what it should. That's one hurdle that may be approaching, but for now, it's one you can do your best to avoid by being the husband you know you can be for your W. The problem with her friends, may be a little more difficult to handle, as this may well be a large part of her support system and you don't want to be seen as "taking this away from her". So tread carefully in this area.

Focus as much energy and thought into what is still positive in your marriage. Try to downplay those things which are negative. Do NOT avoid the negative, but don't let those issues be the topic of every discussion. You want to make yourself as attractive as possible to your W, not someone who is pushy, needy, sad all the time or angry.

Be open and willing to talk and to LISTEN. Make very sure that you understand completely whatever your W is telling you. So often we "mishear" and we assume we understand, when in fact...we've missed the meat of the discussion. If you have any doubts...ask questions to get a fuller understanding.

It is possible to hold a marriage together when only one partner is doing all the work...in the short term. Use this short term period to show your W that you want your marriage more then anything else on this earth. That she is loved, valued, understood and appreciated. Do those little things (if she will allow), such as a light touch on the arm or hand as you pass in the kitchen, a good morning kiss, a kiss goodnight, even the old standby, opening a door for her, helping around the house, etc.

Do NOT go out and buy her expensive presents...you can NOT buy your way back into her heart...but some nice flowers which just appear on the dining room table, a book by an author you know she enjoys just magically being found on the coffee table. Little things...all brought together can make a very large difference.

Show her herself through your eyes, what a lovely, attractive, funny, thoughtful and sexy woman she is to you! Tell her what is truly beautiful about herself...might be a sweet voice, a kind spirit, glorious hair, whatever it is that she knows to be true about herself.

Good Luck!