I've been doing the opposite of what you said...for the past 1-1/2 weeks I've been extremely depressed, sad, angry, crying...NEEDY!

I can now see how this could be very unattractive to her. But in desperation...it was an involuntary reaction to an incredible loss. My loving wife and family.

I am trying to control the sadness and and crying and also trying to stop thinking about everyplace we've been together...driving down a certain road or going to a store where we've been together so often...it's heart-wrenching...I've got to get a hold of myself. I will thanks to all of the helpful advice I'm getting here!

Now that I think of it..she's probably got more reasons to be upset with me because of things I've done in the past week.

This morning I told her I wanted to take her out to dinner tonight so we could just talk alone about our living arrangements. I already mentioned the living as friends thing to her, now I'll have to take that back and tell her that we'll live together for as long as we need to, but we have to be faithful to eachother since we are still married. How do you think that sounds??

She still refuses to stop talking to the OM. If I press this issue it's sure to cause resentment and arguing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I'm guessing Plan A will help with this?

Also...Easter is Sunday...she wants to take the kids to her family's house for dinner. She doesn't want me to go. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
What should I do about that? Tell her I'm going anyway because I want to spend the day with my children?

Thank you!!!

One problem I'm seeing with Plan A...it says to "negotiate" with the WS about discontinuing all contact with the OM.
Here's my problem:

My wife refuses to admit the OM has anything to do with the problem at hand and that he is even the OM at all. Hence, she refuses to negotiate and gets irritated anytime I mention the OM. She "talks" to him..he makes her happy emotionally and makes her feel good about herself. She has admitted she's held his hand and kissed him, but denies anything else. errr

How do I begin Plan A in this instance?

Your W is not open to negotiatations right now about this OM. That's why it so important to try to take the focus off him and onto the marriage. This is something you'll hope to work on as the need of emotional support is given by you and not someone else.

I'm not going to say to ignore this OM, as that is a dangerous area...but do not bring him up if at all possible. If you can refrain from bring him up in your marriage...it's more then possible that he will fade away as you take over the role he's been assuming as your W's friend and emotional support person.

As for the Easter business...they are your children, too...and you should not be excluded from their joy in the day. That I would work very hard to get an agreement on. Easter celebrations, besides the belief system, is often a joyous family fun time and one that you should not be left out of. I'd put a LITTLE pressure on this one...as it's important to remind yourself and your W that you are still a family and can enjoy doing family things together.

NOW...what to do if your W digs in her heels about not wanting you to join, I'd then agree with her and make it clear that you are doing this FOR her and because you want to make peace with her. Do NOT mope about it! Do not try to make her feel guilty.

Sometimes agreeing with everything your spouse says, takes the winds out of their sails and they end up having no place to go or reason to get defensive or go on the attack. It's doing a complete 180 to what you might normally do, which completely throws one off their stride when they've been thinking up "come backs" to what they assume you will say. This is an important tactic.

This is almost like a battle plan. You must give ground in one area to acheive your main goal. You want to reclaim your marriage. Keep the focus on that and do what you feel is beneficial to that goal above and beyond the immediate goal you might have to leave by the side right now.

It's not that you're giving up on those other goals...ie OM out of the picture...but that you are leaving what could become a major battle to another time when your forces are more in control of the whole battle area...then it may just fade away and never have to be fought at all.

SOOOO ENLIGHTENING!!!!

You people are giving me hope when I had NONE!

It's funny how one can't make sense of anything until it's said by someone else. Somehow...everything you're telling me makes perfect sense.

Thank you for the tip on the Easter issue...just to let you know..the main reason now she doesn't want me to go is because I called her a very very bad name during a heated argument yesterday. (my mistake I know)....I lost control. She was giving me the "i don't care about your feelings" attitude...it cut deep. I've never spoken to her like that in our 17 years of marriage. 5 steps backwards with that one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Counseling will help you learn to "fight fair"...a very important tool. You will get angry...that's normal...but you want to channel that anger into productive avenues, not destructive ones. Name calling is a "no-no"...but then you already know this. Apologize...NOW! Even if you already have, re-enforce your sincere remorse for your words. Then maybe ASK her if you may come...if not...see above!

We did try 1 counseling session last week. She came with me..reluctantly. I was very disappointed with the counselor. It seemed very one-sided to me and the counselor was already talking about us making seperate living arrangements!! It was rediculous in my opinion.

Wife said that it's not a good idea if we go out to dinner tonight. She repeats this often. It's not a good idea if we are alone or do normal husband/wife things because she says it gives me false hopes. This was true even a few days ago. But now after learning more from these forums, I'm doing my best to not get "false hopes".

I called her when I was at work and asked if she wanted to go tonight. She said she may be going out with her (female) friend...but I'm not sure.

She also started to get irritated at me because I suggested that for as long as we're living together we be completely honest with eachother and faithful to eachother. She basically refused and said that she's calling to find out about filing for a legal seperation so I can't say I "own" her and that she can throw it in my face if I give her a hard time about being with the OM.

God...I'm so confused. But I did well...I just said "OK...if you want to go out to dinner tonight and talk, the offer is there. If not, that's fine."

What's the deal with legal seperation anyway??? I haven't explored my options as far as protecting myself goes in that situation, but she has...I'm starting to think I should be concentrating on making sure I'm covered as much as I can be.

She also knows that using the kids against me pisses me off to no end. She'll say in an irritated tone "the kids are staying with me".

GRRRRRRRR...

During the course of all this...

I discovered the infidelity by recording one of her AOL chats with the OM.

In my anger...I removed AOL from my computer so minimize her contact with him. She's aggrivated that I did that.
Should I put it back on for her and let her do her thing or refuse to?
She's getting more and more hateful.

Yes, you should get legal advice related to a separation. You should not move out, nor should you give up the kids. It's not you who wants a divorce, it's her. It's not you who is abandoning the marriage (and family), its her. But, laws vary from state to state. You absolutely must know what she can and cannot demand of you.

Regarding counseling: did you read those counseling links in my signature link? The VAST majority of MC's do not have a CLUE about teaching married people how to solve their problems, and IC's don't either. Read Cerri's post of April 14, 2003 11:55 AM about how clueless the MC's in attendence at the seminar were about teaching marriage skills.

I've already made an appointment to see an attorney tomorrow afternooon. This is something I never thought I would even consider...but she's being so nasty and cold toward me she's leaving me no alternative.
Thank you so much for your words of encouragement!
With the exception of the MC (a single 1-hour session) everyone is telling me "Whatever you do...DON'T LEAVE the house!"...even her friend told me this. Is this because she can use it against me in the future if it comes down to a custody battle for the kids? I already mentioned split custody (alternating weeks) and she refused.
So I'm afraid this will get ugly. I will not give up my children without a fight. I will continue with Plan A as much as I can.
She refused to go to dinner with me tonight. I said that it was fine and it was her choice. I'm trying to remain calm, cool and in agreement with her on almost everything on just a wifey's advice. It's actually making me feel a little better. Speaking to the attorney also helped.

I will let you people know what happens with the attorney tomorrow.

This has been my only way to vent and it's helping tremendously. You people are fantastic and I already feel I've made some friends here.
Thank you so much!

It's good that your going to talk to a lawyer, you do need to know your options, what your state laws are and have a good idea what is what if things don't go the way you want.

Yes, it is NOT a good idea to leave the marital home. You're not the one interested in a divorce, so do nothing which will make it simple...I'm not saying do anything which isn't kind...but you do not have to be a doormat either. Yes, it does matter in a court of law if you leave your home. It can be used as abandonment...even if your W asked you to leave. Unless you have decided that divorce is the answer for you, or you see that no matter what, your marriage is over...only leave the house if you are forced to by a separation agreement in which you agree to leave. It should be court ordered. JMHO

As for the kids...no one says that the mom gets total custody just because she wants it...thank goodness this is not 25 years ago when dads had almost no chance of keeping either total custody or joint custody after a divorce. Your W needs a reality check...but let her lawyer and your lawyer if necessary give her this check. You don't want to be seen as the "bad guy" if you can avoid it.

You're W seems to be in a state where she isn't listening at all. Until and if she gets to a stage where she is willing...there isn't much you can do but work on yourself and make sure that you are being the best husband and father you can be at this time.

MC can be wonderful. A good counselor is worth their weight in gold...a bad one is worst then no counseling at all. When going for counseling you must make it clear from the get go that you are there to save a marriage, not to find peace at ending one. If you can afford Steve Harley (from this site), it would be a great idea to talk to him (not going to be covered by your insurance). If not, call a counseling referral service in your area for someone who is versed in MB principles or even someone who is experienced in pro-marriage counseling.

I would NOT return to that last one! JMHO

Good Luck!

Wife and I went to one counseling session. She came with me because "it was the right thing to do". (her words) NOT because she wanted to try to make things work.

I'm almost ready for plan B!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I can't believe that the woman I have been so in love with for 19 years (17 yrs of marriage)...the mother of my children...can be so cold and treat me like a stranger! I'm a decent-looking guy. I'm in pretty good shape. Sex is great (for both of us). I dont even know who she is anymore and just how nasty she will get.
I may have been emotionally unavailable at times...but I just can figure why she's being so cold and mean.

The attorney I spoke with briefly yesterday and I'm going to see today said that usually when a spouse get's this detached, there is someone else in the picture..yet she will not admit that. My instincts tell me she's still seeing him outside of work.

Yesterday...I told my wife that for as long as we are married and living together...we needed to be completely honest and faithful. She wanted no part of that and said "i'm not playing these games" anymore. (one of her favorite sayings)

I said "honesty is not a game, hon"...she said..."you know what? I'm calling to find out about a legal seperation. I'm not going through this everyday."

I think all is lost. That's my gut feeling...and I think she's enjoying making me feel this way. I'm also feeling that she's hiding more than she's telling me because she doesn't want me to be able to use anything against her later.

The niceness routine and offering to do things for her is not helping anything. I asked her to go out to dinner again tonight since she said "no it's not a good idea" last night. She refused.
Her response was.."are you going to ask me to go out with you everyday?". I said "I just feel like going out"...she said "so go out". I told her I won't go out without her. She said nothing.
I rarely go out without her. The only times I can seem to remember were when I was playing in a hockey league years ago. I don't hang out in bars or strip clubs. After work...I go home to my family. Even though at times I'm emotionally not there...I like to be home with them more than anything.

I'm losing this battle...my children already have an idea what's going on since my wife decided to answer their questions without my presence. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
That was wrong.

I'm sorry for the rambling in this post...more venting was needed!!

Should I go to Plan B????? Not leaving...but ignoring her and not TRYING to show my love for her?

<small>[ April 18, 2003, 07:00 AM: Message edited by: SeaCoast ]</small>

Oh...should I reinstall AOL for her so she can get her email? It's also a way for her to communicate with him, but she might not do that now that she knows I was trapping her email and instant messages.

Also...wife's birthday is in 3 days! Should I do something special for her? Buy her a gift? Card? Flowers? Take her out to dinner alone (if she'll go) or with our children?

<small>[ April 18, 2003, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: SeaCoast ]</small>

You'll note when reading Plan A and Plan B that you do NOT go to plan B until you've done the best Plan A you are capable of doing. You need to leave a positive impression in your W's mind before you "leave".

I hate to say this, but I do find that men have a much harder time doing a successful Plan A focus of getting their W's attention in a positive way...because so often by the time women have "shut down" they have completely shut down. And often once a woman begans looking outside the marriage, for her...the marriage has been in serious trouble much longer then if it's the man being the WS. JMHO (Don't beat me up on this men, please.)

It's dicey about reinstalling AOL...but I don't really see a reason to keep it uninstalled, considering she works with this OM and at this point there is nothing to be gained by closing that account. If nothing else, it shows you as being "reasonable"...and sadly may give you some information you don't have now. (If you are able, keep any "proof" that you find, print it out and put it away.)

You may be right about her sick enjoyment of making you "bleed". Sounds like she's got a lot of past resentments bottled up and it also sounds as if she wants to paint you as the "bad one" to justify her own bad choices. (I don't know that I agree with you about the extent of her involvement with this OM, but you may be right...I hope so.)

Yes, talking to the children should be a joint effort...her's was underhanded. JMHO I'd be upset also. Need to work on this one, if at all possible in a calm manner, reaching a decision to talk to your children together as both will continue to be parents rather you continue to live in the same house or not.

You may want to back way off...be available, but not trying to focus on her or her needs, but on what you can do for yourself to make you a better person and father. Until she's ready to listen...you're spinning your wheels.

Sorry, I know how hard this is....but it is NOT hopeless...I know it feels that way...but as long as you are unwilling to give up...there is hope.

You really don't see what you have done to your wife do you? You have hurt/damaged her to the core. You already told her once you were going to work on the marriage and you were lying. How is she supposed to trust you at all? You are words and no action in her mind. She has lost any ability to want to try. What are you going to do to change that? Taking AOL off the computer won't do a bit of good. It will only drive her closer to him. You have to learn to fight the battle in a different manner. You have to be more appealing than OM, not less.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by findingmywayback:
<strong>You really don't see what you have done to your wife do you? You have hurt/damaged her to the core. You already told her once you were going to work on the marriage and you were lying. How is she supposed to trust you at all? You are words and no action in her mind. She has lost any ability to want to try. What are you going to do to change that? Taking AOL off the computer won't do a bit of good. It will only drive her closer to him. You have to learn to fight the battle in a different manner. You have to be more appealing than OM, not less.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually..i'm very aware of how much I hurt her. That's why I'm here; trying to learn how to repair the damage I've done. The thing that's difficult for me to swallow is the fact that she's refusing to put any(more) effort into our marriage. Her only concern at this time is herself and her feelings and what she thinks is HER life....her attitude is "the kids will be fine..they will adjust". She has told me that. She is also refusing to stop "talking" to the OM.
One of his comments in their AOL IM chat was "I can't wait to spend the rest of my life with you and the kids"!!!! He's forgetting..they are not now nor will the ever be HIS kids. Of everything...that cut threw me like a hot knife through butter and made me more angry than I can ever remember being. It's taking so much restraint on my part just to keep from physically hurting the OM.
I made it clear to her already that I don't ever want our children near him.
After she was unfaithful to me once before (i was once also), she swore she would never go there again. So SHE has lied to me as well and I'm still willing to work through it and get our marriage back on track. She is using ME as the sole cause, but in fact..it has to do with the OM as well..but she denies that fact and also denies that he is even a "OM" at all.

Seacoast,

Dude, I know exactly what you are going through. My lovely wife has said the same things. One thing you cant do is be impatient. Every feeling you have right now I have had or still do.

You are getting excellent advice here. You cannot stop her from doing what she wants. Right now she has no reason to think that anything would be any different. No matter how sincere you might be the only thing she has to base it on is the past and to be in this position means that the past wasn't that great. Like wifey said, women do tend to "put up" with more than men.

I wouldn't ignore her, yet. I know that this is tough and you feel like you are doing all the giving and you are. My lovely wife was extremely cold and indifferent to me. Lied repeatedly to me and I took everything that she did lying down. In retrospect I should've asked her to leave so I wouldn't have been witness to the "love" that my lovely wife felt for the other man. I didn't because I was scared that she would just run to the OM. That should not have mattered because she was going to do what she wanted anyway. I held on waaaaaay too tight. I was too focused on fixing her instead of myself. Everything she said, negative or positive, kept me on that roller coaster. If she was happy I figured we were doing better, if she were sad I thought that it was over.

I never showed any anger over her A's. I regret that now. She already had one foot out the door I didn't want to give her another reason to walk the rest of the way out. It is good that you aren't doing this because it eats at your insides. I was down and I continued to let her kick me til the point where I grew numb. Enter my OW.

You have to detatch from this. This is normal. You have to be consistent and patient. You can't play the blame game and who lied or who got hurt worse. Maybe your wife has given up. Maybe she has absolutely nothing else to give, no more fight. You cannot make her want to do this. You can live in a way that might that become attractive to her but you can't make her.

Let her know that you love her and are there(here) for her and are willing to try and make your M work. That this is something you are committed to and you will be committed to your M and her for as long as God allows you to be. No ultimatums, theats, no "if you leave i might not be here when you come back" type things. Don't sit around pining for her and be depressed. Go out and live. You have three kids that need you to be stable. Let them see you sad, be sad with them because this is a sad time.

Good luck and God Bless you

<small>[ April 18, 2003, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: d_rose ]</small>

I know the advise I'm getting here is excellent. Not because it's working wonders (yet), but because it's giving me some sanity and hope.

This is a side of my wife I've never seen in our years together. During the past couple weeks... during our deep conversations she has said that she doesn't want to hurt me anymore..but everytime I call her on her cell phone or try to be affectionate...she hurts me with her words and attitude. I'm not really sure how to deal with that part yet. Do I ignore the mean side of her and just say "ok honey whatever you want is fine with me"? Should I stop calling her completely unless it's important? I'm not sure how or what to talk about with her at this point. I'm trying not to talk too much about our relationship anymore since she gets defensive and starts talking about divorce/seperation.

1hr 20min to my appt. with an attorney <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

seacoast, (thanks Q)

First off my lovely wife and I are separating on Monday. Her choice not mine.

She has told me I was to clingy. We never really got the counseling we needed. I think we went 5 times together between 3 counselors. She is going to be mad because you finally say you give a crap now (or at least showing it). My lovely wife was pissed because, now, that she had found happiness and true love I was trying to take that away from her. She also said that she had tried for so long and just decided to give up and accept the status quo marriage. Pisses her off I want to work on the M. All valid feelings. Maybe your wife feels the same.

It is a fine line you have to walk between keeping quiet when she lashes out and standing up for yourself when she does this. I think you are the only one that knows where that line is and at times even you'll have trouble seeing it.

Good luck at the appt

<small>[ April 18, 2003, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: d_rose ]</small>

d_rose:

You mean "seacoast", right?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
-Qfwfq

Well people...my appointment with the attorney went well. Wife called in the middle of it and now she's even more mad because she didn't know I was leaving work early to go.

She called work and found out I've been leaving work early most days...only because I couldn't handle being there emotionally. She thinks other things.

She is being nastier than ever. Calling me every name in the book...sarcastically calling me the "family man". That one hurts but I dont tell her that.

She is saying that I'm hugging and kissing the kids everyday now because I'm realizing I might lose them. I have hugged and kissed and told my kids I love them EVERYDAY since they were born. Why she's going there with the kids I don't know.

The other day she went to the store with them..my oldest girl (13) asked me to go. I wanted to go so I didn't lie to her...I told her mom didn't want me to go. Wife got pissed at that, but what was I supposed to do? Make my daughter think I didn't want to go?

This is getting worse and worse and I'm afraid there is no hope. She does not want niceness from me. She wants nothing from me. I think she actually hates me.

Plan B time?????? Ignoring her and not physically leaving the house?

HELP!!!!!!