RR,

I have to tell you I understand about the job thing. My H is happiest when he is busy, I'm not worried about the bills, etc. It is a very real EN of his to be admired for his hard work as well as financial security.

I also just wanted to say how proud I am of the both of you. I lurk around your thread a lot, just getting a feel for where you might be, and there have been some pretty significant changes in the tone, pupose and focus of your posts. You sound as though you're more able to target the problems that lead up to the A... am I right? You also sound increasingly concerned about your W's well being. Yours just may be one of this forum's biggest success stories.

How are your children? Any follow up on the oldest's condition?

My wife and I have never really sat down and talked about the reasons as to why I had the affair. It didn't happen over night and I wasn't looking for "it" to happen but I want to believe that the emotional losses in our lives, the fact that we had not been intimate for a couple of years and the "rush" I received when someone else of the opposite sex believes in you and wants you.
I am not making any excuses. In fact, these are all selfish reasons to have an affair.
I also was so far away from my wife and family.

Alli keeps asking questions about the sex and intimate details about the affair. I feel uncomfortable.

We do have one common "sickness" and that is the wanting to seek revenge to the OW since she was able to remain employed and she is walking around without a single care in the world.

But what is the use???

Time wasted.

Why I became involved with such a horrible monster in the end, I just don't know. She turned out to be an evil woman who really didn't care about me. It's so sad because during the affair, she said all the right things, bought lunches, bought cough medicine....etc.

Then another married man came along........

Anyway, I am regressing. Got to go......

Randy,

Have you and your wife done the EN and LB questionnaires yet? These could be the cornerstone for the two of you learning to communicate in the right way.

Also, I’d suggest that you separate the reason you had the affair from the reason your marriage is in the mess it’s in.

Your marriage had problems before the affair.. you and your wife share equally in the state of the your marriage before the affair.

Your having the affair had nothing to do with your wife or the state of your marriage. Many people have horrible marriages and they do not have affairs. Bad marriage does not = affair. Not protecting your vulnerabilities and you making bad choices is what lead to your affair.

I’m not being picky here. If you tell your wife “I had an affair because our marriage was bad and she did such and such.” Then you are putting the blame for your affair on her. If you say this she is going to block out anything you say after that. She bears no responsibility what so ever for your affair. On the other hand if you say that you are unhappy in your marriage because…. And list the reasons then you have put the burden where it belongs… on the both of you for not nurturing your marriage. Can you see the difference?

As for being happy at the job you lost, I understand that. I was very happy at the previous position. Then one day our customer cut the funds and the ones of us who were not laid off were transferred to other projects. We had no choice of where we went. I greatly dislike the work I’ve been doing for the last 1.5 years. It’s not what I like; I find the management to be petty and controlling. And I have no choice right now but to stay, as I’m the sole support of our family until my H finds a job. The job market is pretty bad right now. My point is that the wonderful position was probably not forever … it would have ended some day. Jobs and environments have a way of changing all the time. Plus, in many ways what you had there was not real… how did people respond to you after they found out about your affair? Was it so wonderful then?

I agree that you and your wife need counseling. If she will not go you need to go by yourself. One of the first things to look at is why did you destroy that good job? I think that it’s no small coincidence that you destroyed some thing that was going good for you. Why do you feel that you do not deserve to be happy and respected? It was your actions that did this……

Abe Lincoln used to say that people are about as happy as they decide to be…

Randy, if ali wants to knwo the details, tell her. What she is imagining is probably worse. Heck, I have asked H to demostrate. Reality is usually not as bad as what you are thinking

Tell her why you strayed. It took H awhile to actually know why he strayed and why the affair happened. Reality again is much easier than what you can think up

Quit worrying about the OW, she wasn't the issue, you were. She only did to you what you allowed

Zorweb and Chat Group!!

One thing I would personally like to resolve and get some feedback from the group is why I acted so inmature and so "stupid" when I finally figured out that the OW was now starting another affair with another married man. I mean, why should I have even cared?? It was like I was the one dumped!!!!

Perhaps the worst part of the affair with the OW was that she gave me so many warning signs that the affair would end and that the affair was one big fantasy for both of us. I just didn't listen. I heard but didn't listen.

I was fired because I violated company e-mail policy. I sent two e-mails from temporary computers off site. The e-mails "ratted out" the supervisor that the OW was begining to start another affair with. He was always in her office at night. She kept denying that she was interested but the day before I was fired, a couple of the security guards came up to me to say that the two of them were going out to dinner alot and one saw them holding hands.

Listen, this isn't solving anything!!!!!

It hurts that I acted like a child and for nothing. The company was going to fire the Supervisor anyway because some of the Managers were complaining that the guy was never around. Of course not.....he was in her office!!!!

And she denied the whole thing 4 days before it exploded out of control.

So I have a maturity problem, I have a selfish issue and now I have a marriage were my values and beliefs are torn.

I would love to know from other members that once you cheat on your spouse and the emotional "high" from an affair is so powerful.....how do you go back to the one that loves you unconditionally???

I was missing the emotional piece.

I SCREWED UP MY ENTIRE LIFE NOW!!!!!!
I DON'T KNOW HOW TO FIX IT!!!

Randy

First of all I have to say Congratulations! Yes, you have made progress toward recovery. It's great to see that. It is not an easy path to follow but you have shown that you can do it. Sometimes you need to get your butt kicked by others for a while so you can take a break from doing it yourself. When you are so involved in kicking yourself you don't have any resourses left to invest in recovery.

Recovery and maintianing your marriage is from today foreward your fulltime job, all outside employment is only a means of supporting your true calling in life. That one calling is to be a husband first and a father second, everything else must be superceeded by those with the highest priorority.

You said that Ali was asking for details about the affair. Don't hesitate to give them to her, even if they are uncomfortable to talk about. But first I would suggest that both of you read and discuss all of the basic concepts of rebuilding your marriage. Then you both should fill out the questionaires. When you can agree on their meaning to you as a couple you need to mutually apply them to your everyday treatment of each other. Together, you need to understand that paying honesty with anger is sure death for the marriage.

Ali needs the details to fill in the blanks in picture she has of the affair. As I told another poster it is like trying to fill in a paint by number picture when you dont even have the numbers to guide you. Ali doesn't even have the box that the canvas came in so she has no idea what the picture looks like. You are the one person who does have all the informatiion she needs to fill in the blank areas.

Be prepaired to repeat those details at any time and as many times as she needs. Sometimes the picture she has drawn is different than reality and she will need time to adjust to that. If she can't handle the details after she asks, you need to ask her to explain to you what exactly she needs to know. You must understand that this is a bit overwhelming for her. Try not to discuss the details when she is already upset, and never attempt to tell her details when you are missing the feeling the other woman gave you. That my friend is a surefire lovebuster and can set you back to the very beginning. That is the decision you must make, do you really want to cause that setback?

Concentrating on her emotional needs at the expense of fulfilling your own? You can't fulfill your own! Only Ali can do that, and only if she knows what they are. Most importantly, you must give each other reason to want to fulfill these needs.

I know that this all sounds like it might overwhelm you at times, IT WILL! There are going to be days when you will just want to walk away from it all. Those are the very days when you must work the hardest to keep your goals in front of you and hold on to them. You have proven that you have the tenacity of a bulldog when you get an idea in your mind, so there is no doubt that you can handle recovery.

Oh Crud, running late. Mother in laws dinner out. Gotta run for now.

fudd.

Well, you messed up. Not a doubt about that. You are starting to take ownership of it. Good, that is the first thing your unconditionally loving spouse will want to see. You messed up, you took your life for granted, you took your wife for granted and you went to live in la la land with a real pro/awful person. You did it. It is done. Can't change it.

Now, look at what you have at this very moment. 2 kids, a wife and wouldn't you like to keep that? People in worse situations than you have repaired their marriage and made them better than before. You can do this, you just have to decide to do it.

OK Just one more thing to answer your last post.

ALL extramarrital affiars of are acts of immaturity. Many of them end because of that same immaturity. Hell Randy, mature people discuss problems and solve them while immature ones have affairs or start wars of some nature.
Don't ever think that you are the fisrt to make an [censored] of himself that way.

Now you are beginning to act in a mature manner, that is why you are to be congratulated. You are putting immature thinking behind you. You are beginning to respect yourself because you are worthwhile in your own mind, not because someone else applauds your actions.

Now I am going to have my MIL kicking my butt because I am late. See ya.
fudd.

Can some of you please go to Alli's thread!!

I posted by mistake on her thread this morning.

I now am begining to see the OW in a completly new light. No longer was she this blond-green eyed woman that gave me such support and confidence.

She was out for only one this and it was called satisfying "her" needs.

I was stupid enough to wreck my marriage and job for it!!

by the way, that was fake blond and contacts! little ugly skanky thing! yuck! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Randy

While you posted this on Ali's thread I felt that it should be answered thread. You stated that you couldn't post without Ali getting angry, but if you post on her thread you are telling her that she must live with seperate standards. A definate love buster. You must begin to respect each other enough to allow the other person this space to vent without repercussion.
OK On To Your post.
_____________________________________________
RR said.

While this post is more for myself than it is for a response from the group, I needed to write down some thoughts on the OW and how my thoughts of her have changed so dramatically. These thoughts did not change overnight but after 2 months of painfully talking to my wife about the affair and how the OW responded to Alli's calls (the Ow got a "high") I see her now for what she is.

Wouldn't your thinking be better invested if it was directed toward rebuilding rather than the destruction in the past.
________________________________________________
RR said.

I also know I am equally guilty. For I betrayed my spouse.
************************************************
1) The affair was an inmature act and the way it was handled both at work and outside of work was inmature. I see her as selfish and highly inmature.
2) I see her now as a cruel, selfish woman who has no regard for other peoples feelings. Not once after I was fired did she try to call to apoligize or to say "sorry". There will never be any of that.
3) Some people in life really don't care about their reputation and chose to totally ignore their pasts. Although we must look forward and not back, some people hurt and inflict pain on others and really show no remorse.
4) She was never going to divorce her husband...ever. Although seperated and living apart, they are back together but that is sick bacause her husband took her back knowing about me and proabably about the other man. IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN. BECAUSE SHE IS PREMISCUSES!!!!!!!
5) Despite the fact that her reputation in the office is a "slut" this type of woman does not care and will continue with life as a shallow, uncaring person.
6) FOR THE OW, THE AFFAIR REALLY ENDED TWO WEEKS BEFORE I WAS FIRED ON THAT FATEFUL MONDAY AFTERNOON. PIECING THINGS TOGETHER, SHE WAS A COWARD FOR LYING TO ME ABOUT THE OTHER MAN.
7) MORE PEOPLE "LOST" WHEN THE AFFAIR ENDED. I WAS FIRED, THE "LOSER" SUPERVISOR THAT SHE WANTED TO START ANOTHER AFFAIR WITH WAS FIRED, THE COMPANY LOST OUT BECAUSE I WAS WELL LIKED AND THERE WAS EXPLAINING TO DO.
8) MY WIFE AND I WILL NEVER SEE IF THE OW WILL GET WHAT IS COMING TO HER AND ALTHOUGH WE SHOULD NOT CARE, WE BOTH HAVE THOUGHTS OF SEEING HER FIRED OR RESIGNING BECAUSE OF WHAT SHE HAS DONE.

8 points to ponder. But what can you really do about it? Not one thing, except let it eat away at you and your family. History can never be changed but the future can. You and Ali are both making this woman more valuable than your relationship. As long as this woman takes up all your time the affair continues. Not as a physical affair but you are now having an emotional affair with her. Hate is an emotion that is just as strong as love and you are dwelling upon your hate rather than your love for Ali and your children. You will never get your revenge. Every time you or Ali have attempted vengence it has backfired and caused you more pain. Don't stick your hand in that fire again if you don't want to be burned.

By the way revenge is an immature act.

************************************************** RR said.

For my part, I should never have asked her out on a date, knowing fully aware that "it" was going to lead to an affair. I knew what I was doing.

That should be the end all statement. Nothing more about the affair bears any wieght. No one else carries any responsibility for what you did or any subsequent results of the affair. From the very beginning you brought it all upon yourself and you bear responsiblity for everything. The other woman is only responsible for herself and any thing you suffered is not her responsibility.
_______________________________________________
RR said.

I acted so inmature both during the affair and after. It was why she threatened me in the end and it was why I got fired. Had I remained calm and left things alone, the Supervisor that she was wanting to start the affair with was going to get fired anyway and I could have had her fired. I saved the threat message on my cell phone but only played the message to the HR Manager and not the VP of HR. It was the VP that fired me.

I have to agree that this was an immature act on your part, and it showed all the folks in HR that you were to immature for the position you held. Having to have your vengence caused them to re-think planned actions. You said that the other supervisor was on his way out, but was she? Could they have been waiting for her to hang herself, and you gave her power over them with your immature interoffice emails? You don't really know what was in planning and you didn't care anything about the company when you set about bringing embarrassment and ridicule upon them.
Wasn't the email a question of their managemant and morals if they allowed this sort of thing to go on right under their nose? AND you broke the rules by posting rather than taking the problem to management. That vengence backfired and it was that immature attempt at revenge which got you fired, not the other woman.
______________________________________________
RR said.

I am sorry for Alli!!!! She was up at all hours knowing that the affair was taking place but denying it all along. Alli, I am sorry!!! When you told me last night that on weekends you would be pacing the floor thinking about me in Texas with her and trying to call me......I could only imagine what you were going through.

Now you are beginning to place Ali and her feelings in the position of top priority. That is wonderful, and that is exactly where she belongs in your life. Tell her what you just said here, and mean it with every fiber of your being. But don't just tell her, show her with your every action. You can never show her too much that she is everything important in your life and that you are dedicated to insurreing that she will never again have reason to fear or doubt your feeling any other way. you cannot simply love her, you must be in love with her.
_______________________________________________
RR said.

Alli, you knew about her months before it ended, you had the pictures but you kept telling yourself that I would not do it. I would not cross the line. I am so sorry!!!

And she loved you enough to let you come back to her after you betrayed her love in that manner. She still loves you in spite of all the things you are still doing and saying to hurt her. She couldn't stop you from doing those things and can't change the past, but she is trying to change the future for the better.
________________________________________________ RR said.

Alli, I see the OW for what she is. Worse than a monster and someone that will continue hurting, abusing and setting a horrible example for her children. For I see now that her oldest(18) followed her footsteps with multiple affairs as well and her other children also have emotional problems.

Stop seeing the OW, period. Not easy but every time she pops into your mind kill her memory. Take Ali in your arms and love her as is her due, she has been dieing for you to hold her that way for to long. Get up and do something! Take up chess, it strains the hell out of the mind. Don't allow the OW to have any room in your thinking.
______________________________________________
RR said.

Alli, you are the perfect role model for our children because you are there for them at because you want the family to succeed.

Write this to Ali. Tell this to Ali. Go down to the loop and tell the world, just make sure Ali is there to hear it. But don't say it unless you truly mean it.

You have a made great strides toward rebuilding your love and marriage and I for one am tickled to death for you. Just keep moving forward and leaving the past to die of neglect. You will find that soon there can be entire days that go by without a thought of your history then it will become weeks, but only if you dedicate yourself to making memories that replace that history.

Gotta go for now. Hang in there it gets better.

Agape. fudd.

so randyrail, over on the other thread, you say that someone who'd sleep with a married person is a slut and a whore? so i assume you're willing to wear that title yourself? you are married, you did cheat, so are you now a whore? you came out and called another poster a slut, while you did exactly the same thing. you are still taking no responsibility, it's all about the woman.

geez, do you honestly think all men are so weak that none can resist the power of another woman? you're just a helpless victim trapped by the evil wiles of satan's temptress? of course, much easier than saying you screwed up. you say you've made progress, yet on your list of 8 points, fully six are all about her, her, her while you have whopping two. actually only one because you again slide her into the first one as well.

now comes the part when you complain about my being mean. i'd decided to stay away from at least your half of the threads since it's became painfully obvious you don't want help, you want to be pitied. but the fact that you'd crucify some woman for doing EXACTLY WHAT YOU DID changed my mind.

THE PROBLEM WAS NOT EVER HER, IT WAS ALWAYS YOU. THEREFORE THE SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM WILL HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH HER, BUT WITH YOU!

stop talking about her, stop obsessing about her, stop spending the majority of your time filling your head with thoughts of her. you have no right to act holier than thou about either her or other's actions, not when you're equally guilty.

OMG!! Could you possibly sound like a bigger whiney baby?? You strike me as one of those types that would sue McDonalds for making you fat. It's always somebody else's fault, you have no self control. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Quit your cryin' and treat your wife with some respect dude. For that matter, treat women in general with some respect. I bet you are the one that caused OW's personality towards you to change. Maybe she saw what a whiny brat she was dealing with. I can't believe you had the nerve to call "tew" a slut and a whore. You pompous [censored]! Hello pot, meet your buddy the kettle!!

Now buck up and take responsibility for your actions like a MAN would. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I think the majority of the chat group has disagreed with your comments and personally, I think your tone and the way you come across is really not constructive.

I would rather you not post anything back to me but I think by saying this, it is giving you a right to continue.

My pain (if you allow me) comes and goes and is so deep you do not understand. If you knew and half knew what was lost while I had the stupid affair, I am sure you would not write. I personally have not been the same and am struggling to move forward with my wife and family.

You want to hear that I am working with Alli and working on saving the marriage. How can I when I cannot move forward with myself????

At times, I have "streaks" where I am moving forward. I am reaching for Alli. But there are other times when I begin to cry for the loss of the job and the loss of a future for the family.

I go back and forth. Back and forth.

krista and finding,
While I am sure you do not approve of my past I am grateful for your comments. Thankyou.

RR,
I read on your W's post that you were complaining to her about the fact that your OW dumped you. Why do you care if she was such a whore and a slut? It almost seems if you are more upset that she dumped you than the fact that your W is in pain. tew

I am making progress but in little steps. I go forward some days and back in others. I now see the OW for what she was/is.

I have some internal issues. One is the fear of letting go. I am so scared of this!!! While crying like a baby, for a moment in time, I was able to expereince the joy of having a successful position that gave me the confidence and fufillment of a lifetime.

I am greiving at times for my wife as she is describing how she knew about the affair months before it ended at how she was up late at night knowing I was with her in Texas.

I had no idea of the pain, hurt and sufferring the affair would cause.

To my family, wife and myself.

In short, the affair ended as inmaturly as it started.

I should not have lt it happen.

oh please! you're right randy, it's just you in the history of humanity who knows how it feels to be admired and then lose it because of your own stupidity! you're the only one ever to screw up your life and have to face that fact.

i got pregnant at 17. before that i played sports, went to many concerts, was both prom and homecoming queen, and voted most likely to succeed. i graduated a year early, was in college, and loved my life.

but i CHOSE to have sex. i chose to put myself into the position to lose it all. are there days when i mourn what i lost, how i felt like i had it all? of course, many days for the last 16 years. i've never managed to recapture those glory days, but at some point i realized i had to grow up and stop blaming others for what i did to myself. the same way you will have to, hopefully.

as to the majority, i think if you'll go back and read your posts you'll see something strange. people write, give you great advice, you ignore it, they drift away. then come the new ones, thinking you really want the help, they offer good advice, you ignore it, and soon they'll drift too. so many have tried in such kind terms to help you but you don't want to hear it! you blow them off and say but we don't understand. the problem is we DO understand, you're the one who does not. someday you'll get that.

you seem to think you are the only one ever to feel the way you do, the sense of mourning, of missing something that made you feel complete. but you're wrong. many including me have been right where you are right now. shall we compare what we've lost? would that make you see that you are not alone or your case so very different?

so then tell us, exactly what would you consider constructive? 7 pages of people giving you advice, they're all wrong? all have tried to tell you the problem wasn't ow, but you. what will it take to help you? if pats on the hand along with a sympathetic there, there hasn't helped, what do you think you need?

also, you said you cry for the loss of your family. have you not realized yet that they're not gone? not yet, but if the posts i'm sharing with ali are any indication, you could soon. you are driving her to the point where she may come to resent you forever. maybe it's time for you to seperate from her, while you get the therapy you need? you are seeing a counselor of some kind, aren't you?

the sad fact is that i feel sorry for you. i think that you're probably a nice guy, but one who's still so stuck in what's known around here as the fog to see anything at all clearly. some spouses have it in them to sit patiently and wait for their spouse to wake up, but from what i've heard ali is not one. you're going to drive her away from her, and if i thought tracking you down and smacking you in the head would save your marriage, i'd consider trying that as well!

i do not want to see you lose your marriage, if that is indeed what you want. but more than that i don't want to see you lose one more day to the grief you're allowing yourself to drown in. it took me a long time to get used to all that i'd thrown away, it will you too. but there's a difference between grieving and wallowing. i know this from personal experience.

How did you overcome the losses????

Did you also have spells of going back and wallowing???

I am scared of letting go.

Alli and I talked last night and while we agree that the position in Texas was a "lifetime opportunity where I could do no wrong!!", look what happened and look at what I did.

I know I had the affair. I know I had the ability to stop it or not even get involved. I chose to get involved.

My mistake-I take ownership.

everything you just said, please believe i've felt it too! sometimes i want to rage, why did i do this to myself? i look back at all i missed and feel anger, with no place to put it.

i got past it the same way you will have to, one day at a time. i know, what a cliche! it will hurt, and it could very well be one of the hardest things you ever have to do! and yes, there are still days when i wallow. i used to have perfect hair, perfect makeup, great clothes, great life, and now i'm lucky if i remember to not wear stripes with plaids! i used to go out, i was popular, i was wanted by so many, and now i'm a mother of three.

i guess you have to weigh what you had to what you stand to lose if you continue as you are. i assure you, i can completely understand where you are right now! i feel for you so much, i wish i could shake you and make you see what else you stand to lose! but i know right now, your problems seem so huge, all else fades away. gosh do i know that!

in an ideal world, your wife could help you mourn. but to her, the ow and the job are AT THE MOMENT inseperable. that won't always be, but remember she's mourning too! she's lost just as much as you, you lost feeling important but she lost feeling loved. so when you take her your feelings of sadness, she will see it as your refusal to let go. do you have anyone else who you can go to with those very natural feelings? would you like someone?

i know i've come across as mean spirited, and honestly i'm not. but i see you standing on the same hill as i stood on, and want to help you find your way to my side of the mountain. i want to shock you into realizing that right now, you stand to lose alot more than a mere job, important as it was.

you have a family who loves you, still! dad is one of the two most important folks on this planet to those little rugrats and they need you more than your office ever did! i don't want you to lose them because you're drowning in your pain. isn't there anyone to whom you can speak and maybe leave ali out of it for awhile? all it does is cause both of you more pain, since neither is willing to hear the other due to their own hurt.

you have no idea how much i hope you make it, both in your marriage and with yourself. it will be hard, it will painful, and it will be worth it in the end!

Kristawny:

I have no one. I can talk to no one, as I have few friends. The ones that I do have would rather not get involved with what is taking place at home.

I am afraid of letting go. So scared, so frightened, like that of a 3 year old afraid of the dark. I know I have so much to lose, so much more than the job in Texas. The kids, the wife and everything in between.

What am I afraid of?????

I remember so much about the job, the management staff that liked me. Never before in my life have I felt so important and so fufilled in a job. I was responsible for 3 outside warehouses and one frozen distribution center. But more than anything, I was helping feed our troops during the war effort.

Alli just reminded me that "things" were not all the rosy while down there. For example, there were many calls in the begining on how hot it was while down there and how I hated the weekends. For the first 4 months, I missed the family and I cried wanting to go home. Despite my contributions, I missed the family.

A job does not make me, I often hear. But when you are the sole bread winner and you involved with the day to day operations, you want to be successful. You crave it.

My prioreties might be a little "scued". But talk to Alli. She has always know how driven I am and how much effort I put into a position.

Why can't I put that into our marriage???

I know you were going to ask this question and I think I know what is going on.

After being on my own for 4 months, no bills, no children, no worrying to clean up the house, etc.. I became part of the fantasy and guilty of only thinking of myself.

Once I was fired and I had to come back to Illinois, it was reality.

Counciling begins on Tuesday. Also, while I am employed right now, I hate my job for it's not in the food manufacturing industry. But I have a third round of interviews on Thursday near Chicago and it is within the food industry.

Please write back......

You are helping me.....