The OW really doesn't matter. I am an old poster and I can see how this can be very painful in the just found out area.

Trust me, don't even think about her because she is nothing to your marriage. Our OW was a lost soul who looked at the life my H and I had created thru hard work and deceided that that was the life she wanted. Is my H guilty of starting the A. Yes. Was she stupid for going into it. Well. I think she saw stars and thought she would get the moon. Trust me, the only thought she had about me was wanting to take my place. She was single (divorced twice and under 30).

My H told me all about her, she kept talking about the life the two of them would have, how wonderful it would be. My H's response was that he already had the life he wanted. That his life with me and the kids was wonderful. The A ended because she was just an ego boost during a tough period for us. I now feel sorry for her, because what she wanted was our wonderful life. You have to make a wonderful life though, you can't steal someone else's life because the fantasy will fade and reality comes in. THAT is why marriages started by A's fail. They are not real.

No he didn't stay for the kids, he stayed for ME <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I wish all you new folks the best of luck. MB has helped me a great deal. I stick around because I would like to give the newly BS's hope. Most marriages do survive an A. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Now, our life is better than ever. Real people have problems. Real marriage is about forgivness. It takes some time to get where I am now, but it can be a better marriage. Do I thank the OW? He$$ no! She has nothing to do with us. I pitty her. She made some poor choices. 2 years out I hope she has learned from this. I hope she has had therapy to look at why she did this. She must have been a miserable lonely person looking to take someone elses life because her life was not good enough to attract a decent single guy. JMHO

lessonlearned

You do not tell us what happened in the ‘end’. I assume that you have your divorce and the OW was dumped. I also am assuming that you and the OM split and he stayed with his wife. Does his wife know about the affair you and he had?

There is a very important lesson that you have not learned. It is evident from the following quotes from your post……

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course, he shouldn't have been a rat and used someone he knew was so vulnerable also.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So he was the rat? I would bet that he never thought about how vulnerable you were. He was, like all WS, just liking all the attention he got from you. After all his wife was so busy doing everything else other than baseball. So he found it nice to have someone else to be there when his wife was too busy doing the things a wife and mother does.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes I think it is only the MM who get off easy and he is usually the one that caused it all to begin with.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He got off easy? It seems to me that you were as responsible for the affair has is was. And I’ll bet from his point of view you got off easy. After all it either broke up his marriage or he has to live every day with what he did to his family and wife.

And he hardly caused it all. It seems to me that it takes two to tango. Did he hold a gun to your head? No he did not cause it all, you did. Why? Because you never drew the line to stop it. My female elders taught me a long time ago that a man pursues until a woman stops him. Even today that is how males are taught to act with women. (Food for thought.) You have at least 50% responsibility for this affair. At any point you could have told him to leave you alone. But you, like him, enjoyed it so you kept it up with no regard to anyone but yourself.

You are vilifying him. He is no more a villain than you are. And until you see that you will not be able to move on totally from this. You are not a victim in your affair.

You talk about how your marriage demoralized you to the point that you had the affair. Not all BS’s have secondary affairs. Your being demoralized is not what caused you to have the affair. What caused it is the lack of proper boundaries and proper self-nurturing on your part. I think you know that as you say you now know how to prevent it in the future.

What you are still doing is taking the victim’s stance as the OW. You were not then and are not now a victim. You wanted the affair and you had it. Simple.

You see every WS has a sad story to explain their infidelity… and it is always a spouse who does not fill their needs. Let’s not be concerned that they are not meeting their spouses need either.. that is the case 100% of the time with a WS. Why? Because if they are taking emotional and sexual energy outside of the marriage, then the BS is being short changed.

Every OP has their sad story to explain what they did. It’s all nothing but a big excuse for bad behavior.

A percentage of people who are victimized (an affair is a form of abuse) become abusers themselves. This is the path you took. You decided that everyone does it so why not you and the h3ll with his wife and his family. Most victimizers have great stories about how they were driven to then strike out at the world. This is no different.

By the way, women cheat in their marriages as much as men do… so this is not about how awful men are and how victimized women are. The ONLY victim of an affair triangle is the BS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lastly, I now understand my husband’s OW. I almost want to look her up and say it must have been so hard on you and I never realized that. She must have given him so many chances because she loved him so much, she thought she was going to spend the rest of her life with him, and he abandoned her finally and put her through hell also.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is an interesting insight into where your head is. You are now empathizing with the OW. You are angry at your MM and your husband for what you preserve they did to you. And some how you see the OW as a victim. She is not a victim. I would have no sympathy for any of the pain she went through. It was voluntary on her part… she choose to go through that. Why have sympathy for what she wanted to do? She had no remorse in hurting you and your son. When someone does wrong and does not ask for forgiveness or understanding then you are overstepping your bounds in going there. My bet is that she still harbors very bad feeling towards you because you cause her problems.

I always find it interesting how a person will find a way to justify/excuse or mitigate their wrong doings like this. We all know how people let themselves get sucked into affair. They do it because it is what they want at the moment. To then try to make it the MM’s fault and to paint a picture of themselves as a victim through the entire thing up to today is very sad.

What have you done to make the horrible thing you did up to his wife and family? I am thinking this through and I don’t think there is any thing a person can do except to back out of the affair and let the MM and BS rebuild their relationship.

Too bad you don’t help them with the bills for counseling, etc. I still believe that the OP has a financial obligation to the BS.

<small>[ July 24, 2003, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Zorweb ]</small>

Zorweb!!!!

This was amazing. Thank you for taking the time to express your thought with such eloquence.

Very very true. I hope she reads your post and responds.

Pep

ZORWEB........What can I say.

You are just fab!!!! A great posting take a bow <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Whew. This is a long one.

I am Zorweb's H; a few years ago, I was the WS in our marriage.

Note to all WS's and OP's: the end does not justify the means. We tend to justify our wrongdoing, because we are not strong enough to handle the concept that we are capable of doing wrong and that we need to make behavioral changes.

Fortunately, Zorweb and I discovered MB at the right moment. And because of that, I understand that what transpired in the As was the fault of two people: myself (as the WS) and the OW.

In retrospect, I realize now that I had ENs that were not being met; I did not know about ENs then, but that fact is that I was not allowing Zorweb to fill them. By going outside the marriage, I gave her even less of a chance of filling them.

Tew (and other OPs), that is what you did. You stole energy away from the MM's marriage, and denied the possibility of the marriage healing itself. Further, you make the judgment "they jumped the gun and got married" ... having lived in fog, I sure recognize it when I see it. Tew (and others), I will not lombast you further, because as long as you maintain your fog-state, it is pointless to do so. But the bottom line is, OPs and MPs are indulging themselves to the detriment of the BS; and will use almost any means to justify their behavior.

Self-justification is self-justification, no matter what brush you use to paint the picture.

To answer Kat, whose thread this is: What sort of person is the OP? A self-indulgent, inconsiderate one concerned with only their own self-gratification. I can own up to that label, because that is what I did. Any of you OPs and WSs out there having problem owning this label? If you are, you need to rid yourself of some fog, before you post to people like Kat.

If people who live in glass houses throw stones, they better learn to duck falling glass.

Kat, it is not the OP alone: your H bears equal responsiblity. However, I hope that you and he can use the MB principles to heal your marriage the way Zorweb and I are. It is hard work, I will not delude anyone ... the ends is definitely worth it in BUILDING a marriage. It is definitely not worth it when DESTROYING one.

Godspeed to you Kat,
STL

tew, I was reading this post to see if I can find something to enable me in my healing process. You however made a comment that I just could not let slide. I think you a correct that you are not reading the same Bible that we are.

Luke 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultry.

Mark 10:
What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. And in the house his diciples asked him again of the same matter. And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife , and marry another , commith adultry against her.

He also talks about adultry in Matthew 19:4-6
I Corinthins 7:10-11,
I Corinthiins 7:39-40
Matthew 5:31-32
Yep, our Bible pretty much sums it up that God is not cool with divorce. You are forgiven for sin, if you confess it as sin and not try to pretty it up. Your bible seem broken, you might want to go to Barnes & Noble and get the Bible the rest of us read.

Make up on a pig is still a pig. What you two did was wrong period! I hope that you two are able to confess it as wrong and are able to have a wonderful marriage. But please don't pee on our legs and tell us it is raining.

<venting>
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

phew!
thank you.

Will the Night of the Living Dead OW never end?

I think I posted on this thread eons ago.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> AND SHE STILL LURKS IN MY MARRIAGE! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

sorry, more venting.

okay
breath breath breath.

better now

Thank you very much for that quality moment amongst friends.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thank you Seenthelight. You have been there, done that and got the Tee shirt. I will listen to your advise as you sound as if you are truely trying to put things right.

I hope that my H and I can too take your lesson learned and move forward. We seem to be be...

I am sooo glad that you realise what you and the OP have done and you are not afraid to take the balme.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sooo glad that you realize what you and the OP have done and you are not afraid to take the blame.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The fact that STL makes no excuses for what he did and owns the wrongness of it has gone a long way to mend our marriage and help me heal. I love him even more for it. It shows a great strength of character. Since he can own up to his wrong doings he has been able to do those do the right things to help us heal.

WOW!

This site has become a vent all!

Zorweb, you are fantastic when it comes to reality! You always hit the nail right on the head!

The way I see it, is if he/she is married, then he/she is off limits! STAY AWAY! I don't care how much attention they can give you. You should never feed into it!
My sister said to me; "I don't care if Cindy Crawford walked into his office butt naked and wanted to have sex with him the point is he should have said no!'

Lesson Learned, you went through an extremely hard time with your H. affair, I believe you that you were not looking for a MM. But the warning signs were there right from the start with this guy! It is just my opinion that you feeling so low, which you did admit, that you loved the attention. I am not sure at the moment if you were really thinking about the wife! Was it really love you were feeling? Or the fact that someone gave you attention?
What about your son? And his son? What was the impact on them? It sounds to me like they became good friends and if you aren't not with MM, what about their relationship?
*************************************************
It is just my gathering of information from this site (MB) and many books that I am reading, that the OP persues the MP and doesn't care about the spouse! My H's OW, knew that he was very married with a baby about to go into major reconstructive surgery! She didn't care! And please correct me if I am wrong , but that is usually how it happens!
Ginger, I agree with you too!
OK about to talk a walk
Ali

I have thought long and hard on this subject. My exhusband met his first OW on the internet. She lived 2000 miles from us. Anyway long story short he went out to get her, she had 8 kids brought 3 back with her stated she was abused but left the other kids with their "abusive" father. Turned out when he got her here she finally admitted she had made up the whole thing. She now is back in that state living in a halfway house because she had some kind of a mental breakdown and has no visitation with any of her kids. Abusive husband is the nicest man you could know he and I remain friends.

OW #2 She was a peice of work. My ex was a contractor and did work in her house. They fell deeply in love, she had no problem moving into what was our house after I let my ex have it back because the kids and I couldn't afford it. (We were forced to move to a rental) Anyway once they got married and she hads him she didn't want him anymore they were divorced in less then a year.

Turns out my ex was suffering from severe depression and mid life crisis. I think these women saw his vulnerability and thought that they could better their lives no matter what the cost. Both women were older than I if that makes any sense. My ex is a very, very nice looking guy and being a little older I think they thought they were getting quite a catch.
Instead all they got was alot of heartache and for the 2nd OW alot of debt. (Serves her right)

JIll