I had an affair over five years ago. My wife suspected, but I swore up and down that I wasn't doing anything. The affair was pretty slimy on my part: I introduced my wife to my mistress (an assistant at work). My wife even confronted her on who I was having an affair with, also if it was her?
In October 2001, I finally confessed, due to the constant mistrust on her part and after 9/11, I was feeling my mortality and guilt to a high degree. We have been on a tremendous roller coaster since then: trying, not trying, couseling, screaming at eachother, having sex, not having sex. Now we haven't had sex in nearly eight months? and she said that when were having sex she was thinking about being with another man (her physical trainer - an aquaintance of both of ours). Funny thing the sex has never been greater.
Since my confession, I did a Men's Weekend where I discovered what a absolute jerk I was in the marriage, controlling things that I should have left to my wife, etc. Now she says that I have improved tremendously since my weekend and my weekly meetings with these men (the men are not all adulterers). She also says that I have now become the man she wishes I was when we first met. And she tells her friends the same thing. But, she says though that she cannot forgive/forget about the affair; it would show that she was giving in.
Now she is waiting for our tenth wedding anniversary (6/03) to file for divorce. I don't know all the reasons why the 10th, but she is keeping me around til then.
I am feeling lost as I am the only one working on fixing the marriage (there were issues on her side as well). She won't continue individual counselling, and our therapist won't have us both come in unless she is willing to try and not argue the entire time.
We have a girl, seven; and a son three. She is good mother but she has let the affair devistate her; her comment to life and slowing down, doing things properly, being patient with the kids, giving more time to our son, is "I can't be bothered." She has retreated into her world of music and the gym.

I recently found out that she was making out with her personal trainer at the gym. Also, that she was going to go all the way when I took the kids to my brother's to give her some time by herself. It seems the trainer backed out and bruised her ego.
During this past Christmas we had a huge blowout and I let her know that I spoke to the trainer about things that happened to her when she was younger. She was obviously upset, but I thought it was because I was ruining a "future" relationship, not one in progress.

Last month, May, she got me out of the house on a TRO for DV. We were arguing over not working on the marriage. She lost the hearing because she lied and said I grabbed her by the wrists and shook her violently.
Now, she's locked me out of the house and even told the police that I am not allowed back in (even though legally I am). I am staying with friends until she cools down some.

I love her and I'm very sorry for the affair. If she had one, I'm hurt, etc., but I love her and forgive her.

Long story and I am at a lost on how to mend this relationship.

<small>[ July 22, 2003, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: tryingTOsaveMYmarriage ]</small>

I'm new to this site, so I don't know if I did something wrong or not. I have received any replies to this.
Since I first posted, it has gotten worse. My close friends feel I should sue for divorce to see if that will bring her into the reality of the situation. She said she doesn't care about the house anymore and knows it will be sold in the divorce.
I'm really confused from all the feedback from friends and family. I was hoping for some feedback from the MB users, but nothing so far.
I bought "His Needs, Her Needs" and will start reading tomorrow.

opps

<small>[ June 18, 2003, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: mammaluc ]</small>

I’m sorry to see that you got no responses. No you have not done anything wrong. Once in a while a post gets over looked. Generally I try to look for those and start the posting. I read your post the day you posted but I’ve had little time to post…..

Some hints on getting posts. When you do start getting replies, respond to everyone who posts to you. It takes a lot of time and energy so if the original poster does not keep the conversation going people assume they have not returned to the site and stopped posting.

Reply to others on their threads, when people see being active they are more likely to look up your thread to give you feed back… just human nature I think.

Though I did not post when I first read your story, it’s been turning in my mind….

It’s good that you are going to read “His Needs, Her Needs”. However, the first book you should read is “Surviving an Affair”. You have both had affairs. Even though your wife’s affair has not gone ‘all the way’ it is still an affair. You can already see the fog and alienation it is causing in your relationship.

Your wife is punishing you… that’s obvious. My counselor told me that most (I assume 50% to 80%) of BS (betrayed spouses) end up having a secondary affair. It’s hard to explain to a person who has not been a BS but an affair cuts so deeply into the BS’s self worth that sometimes this seems like the only way to get on equal footing with the WS (wayward spouse). About 6 months into discovering my H’s affairs, when we were well into a good recovery I went through a time when I was haunted by a desire to have an affair. It was really strange because I did not really want to have an affair, I did not know anyone I wanted to have one with. But the thoughts were painfully obsessive. I ended up telling my H so he could help me through that time. He was hurt and shocked. But better that than me make matters worse. Those stupid thoughts have been gone for a long time now.. thankfully.

Have you read about Plan A? It is discussed in the Surviving an Affair (SSA) book. The purpose is to negotiate with your wife to end her affair, end all contact with the OM (other man) and to work on your marriage. That is where you start.

As for you being out of the house because of the TRO that is now null and void… you have options that I can see. One is to take the papers that show you have legal access to your family home to the police and have them escort YOU to your home. If your wife fights your reentering and living there, then perhaps the police with file charges against her. This is a tough thing to do but she needs to realize that things apply to her as well.

Or you can see an attorney to see what they can do to get you back in the family home. In my state one spouse cannot kick another out without real proof of domestic violence.

Or you can just set up home where you are now, see an attorney and get 50% custody and time sharing with your children. Often when a person (usually a woman) does what she is doing, she has the mistaken impression that the children are ‘hers’. If she realizes that she is going to not have her children for about 50% of the time she may start to realize what she is doing.

Although I’m not sure what Dr. Harley would say about it, there is some wisdom of you beating her to the punch with divorce papers. It might shake her up. And many people who file for divorce never go through with it.

Because you are already out of the house, I think that you have a particularly difficult situation. I think you would benefit greatly from some counseling (or really marriage coaching) session with Dr. Harley. He does them via telephone. If you search this site for counseling you will find a page that tells how to reach Dr. Harley.

Thank you, Zorweb.

Your advice with beating to the punch is similar to my friends yesterday. I'm just nervous that it will just make things end sooner for the M. As my friend mentioned to me, I am in an abusive relationship, and I'm the one who is being abused: not seeeing the kids, her constantly filing tro - being turned down, etc.)

Don't the wrong idea, I take responsibility for my actions, and I had the right to say "No" to my A,and I didn't. I felt unappreciated and controlled by my W, so I took it out on her by having the PA.

As for my W and the OM, she tells me that it was only an EA, because she found out that he goes to orgies in the city. I don't know how true that is, based on her lying in court and all.

To give you an understanding of the situation.
In the past I had road rage, we had arguements (very heated), she was very controlling, and I did not want another mother. So we fought.

After our daughter was born in 1996, I felt apart from my W as her H. Yes, things change when you become parents, but time (3 hrs a month) still needs to be found for us as a couple. She didn't see it that way. Then, she criticized my crooked teeth and stopped wanting to kiss me. I felt less and less an important part of her life. I went on the Internet (that's my job) and found out about chat rooms (first technical ones, then the bad ones). This lead to using language that I was not allowed to use in our making love. I defintely got hooked.

Later on I met my boss' assistant, who was going through a divorce and we got chummy and eventually, I had the A. During the A, 3 months, I just wanted out of the M. I found out that a woman didn't care about my teeth and enjoyed my kisses, let me use words, didn't try to fix/correct me, and appreciated me. Don't get me wrong, I know that was all show on her part and I ate it up.

I never mentioned anything to my W, though she suspected. And during the A, I had them meet (SICK ME). I wanted out of our M and looked for a lawyer. Our arguements became worse, and at one point I grabbed my W's wrist and did not let go for 5-8 seconds, she later said I bruised her. She has pix, and I don't remember seeing bruises. One other time, after she got her last word in and walked away, I was so upset, I punched a hole in the wall. So yes, I have been violent in the past (this is over four years ago).

Since then, countless thousands of dollars for counselling (for both of us), my mens weekend, resstablishing my spirituality, I have become the man she wishes I was when we met (her words).

Now she is the one who would start an arguement, I would walk away and she would pursue. I even have a lock on the inside of the basement door so I could get away. But, after constant badgering, I would join in. I know this is a sick response.

I messed up real bad with this M, and after last year when I did my weekend, I changed and discovered the right way to treat my W. Marriage is a 100%-100% relationship. Once I realized that she was already making up her mind to bail.

Now I just want another chance to do what I am suppose to do a man and a H. I want to love, honor and cherish her like I failed to in the past. I have been a 'great father' (her words), now I want to be a great H.

Last thought,
By responsding to others threads, you mean to read other members posts and answer them. Not just take, but give as well?
Even though I work with the Internet, I am in unfamiliar territory in posting messages (gun shy from the last time I was in chat and forums).

Thanks for you support.

As I have stated in other posts.......alot of times a wayward person is forgiven by their spouse and by god.......if you are sorry and repent of course, but.....you still have to suffer the consequences of your actions. That is exactly what is happening to you tryingTOsaveMYmarriage. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Your response is not new to my ears. I received the same from the author of a romantic ebook I read.

I am truly sorry for the A and how I treated my W in the past. I am closer to God right now, though the past day or two I have been shaky.

I just finished reading the first two chapters of "His Needs, Her Needs" and I cried when he discussed what is an A. I already know the needs my W was not fulfilling of mine. At the same time, I know the needs that I was not fulfilling for my W.

I pray that by sueing for divorce this will wake up my W that this is a serious matter and we need to resolve it, or else nobody wins, especially our children. They will have to spend time without both parents at special occassions, share their love and loyalty with two different/separate people. If either, or both of us remarry, there will be additional parents in thier lives. Money and the lifestyle we could have created for them is split.
in short: Divorce is the worse form of child abuse.

Thanks again, ITSOVER.

I hope its NOT over.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I pray that by sueing for divorce this will wake up my W"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you are not ready for divorce then I suggest that you consider dropping the divorce. Using the filing of divorce solely as a wake up call to your W can backfire on you if she decides that it's just as well and that it's for the best for everybody involved. If that happens then your M will indeed be on its final days, so please reconsider your decision.

I also would not recommend bringing a divorce into play unless you are absoultly sure you want to go through with it. Trust me I have thought about doing the same thing, but I realized that it is no way to rebuild a relationship.

I just picked up "Surviving an Affair" & just in reading the first part of the book the A that my wife is having is the worst, She fits the mold of the "Soul Mate" I keep trying to do plan A which I have kinnda learned on my own (prior to all the suggestions here...I just didn't know what it is was called). But I feel that it in some small way is working. Hang in there...but remember do not use Divorce as a threat. Your wife has to want to make things work or they will never work. Do your best to make her feel like she wants to work things out.

Hopefully this helps a little....

LostPilot

tryingTOsaveMYmarriage

You know, maybe instead of filing for divorce you completelyl change the way you interact with her... if you were to plan A her and at the same time do a 180 in the way you behavor towards her. I think that a lot of this is her trying to punish you, it will only work you if respond to it the way you are. Take a look at the link about Carol and the 180 in my signature block. The 180 can work very well to get someone's attention.

Thanks Zorweb, TOOMuchCoffeeMan, and LostPilot,

I don't want to go through a D either. I am just at a lost of what to do next. I can't talk to my W; on the phone EVERYTHING leads to the A and how sick I am. We are celebrating our 10th anniversary in 7 days and I asked her out on a date. She went nuts, saying, "we're married; married couples do not go out on dates, they go out." It has always been a game of symantics with her.
My lawyer said the longer I am out of the house, the more difficult it will be to return. She thought that she was going to get the house in the settlement, now she doesn't care and understands the house will be sold.
I have read 4 chaps in "His Needs, Her Needs" and it is an amazing book. Much of Harley's material sounds like things from my men's weekend. (I did a Sterling Men's Weekend in June of last year.) I wish I could get my W to read this book; the more I read it, the more I realize that I can't change her only me. But without any conversational contact with her, how will she know how I have changed, how much I love her, how much I want to save the M?
I have been given so much advice over the past few months, I am completely confused. I know I want to save the M and the family, JUST HOW???

I'll take the advice and read those articles/pages you all mentioned.

Thanks, TTSMM

I forgot.
So now I am out of the house. I still want ot take her out, get floweres, a card, etc for our anniversay.
Now what???

You said she is waiting until your 10th anniversary...it might have something to do with social security. My divorce attorney once told me that if a marriage lasts 10 years or more the spouses can make a claim against the other's SS benefits. Just a thought.....

Thanks Zorweb,

I just finished reading the first 2 pages of Carol H. WOW! My question is how to do this 180, if I am the WS (Wayward Spouse?) and she wants a divorce? In seven days, it is our 10th anniversary, which is when my W said she would file for a D (previous arguements over the last 9-12 months).

I have read your other link to Plan A and Plan B, and will read the four rules tomorrow. I believe my W and trust her when she tells me that her EA is over (read previous posts) so that is not an issue for Plan A or B. We are separated right now. I am locked out of the house (though legally I can have the locks changed at any time and return). Is there a Plan A/B for the WS? So how do I accomplish this?

As I believe I mentioned earlier, my PA ended nearly five years ago. I let my W know 20 months ago, though she suspected five years ago. I swore up and down that there was nothing going on. I even convinced our therapists that since I was trying to save the marriage, and the A was over, why should I tell my W that I had had an A.

Last year, I thought we had a chance. The OW left my workplace. Things between W and I improved, and even the S. She said later it was due to being in her early 40's and because she was thinking of being with SOE. We weren't even using protection. We had been using protection since I confessed the affair.

Then in October 2002, it all crashed again. The OW returned to job. I completely ignored her. In Jan of this year, she moved up to my floor and I continue to ignore her. I told her that I was out of the house because of our A and that unless my boss put us together on a project, DON'T EVEN SAY HELLO TO ME! (I know, wrong to share my home life with the OW AGAIN!). Btw, my W called my boss and told her about my A and who it was with. So what happens, we are placed on a project together with other staff members and I ignore her as much as possible.

I know I love my wife so there is NO WAY I would ever start a PA or EA with this woman ever again (or any other woman). But, she still believes I am sleeping with the OW. She even told the police this last week when she called 911 because I wanted to enter our house (no violence).

Now I know I have to break it off completely with the OW, even though I ignore her. To do that, I MUST find a new job, because the OW is not leaving any time soon. I have been reluctant to find one because I like my job and because when I have looked, I cannot find anything within my range. Since W does not work, with less salary, we will lose our house. However, with a D, we will lose house anyway.

As a side request for support, if anyone knows of a MIS job in NJ or very good MIS headhunters in NJ, pls email me. I would like to work evenings so I can take care of our 3 yr old S and my W can resume work, if she wants to.

In case I did not mention in previous posts, we have a 7 yr old D and a 3yr old S, who I have only seen once a week in the past 7 weeks. IT IS TEARING ME UP INSIDE.

Thanks again to all who have posted to my thread.

TTSMM,

Even if your wife files for divorce there is time. The divorce from my ex took about 18 months. Many couples file and never follow through with it.

On how to do win her back even after she has left.

Being the WS or the BS has nothing to do with doing the 180. The 180 is a tactic to use when whatever you are doing is not working. You do exactly the opposite. Now do not necessarily expect immediate improvement, but it will get her attention.

For example, do you start a lot of relationship talks with her? If you do, then stop it. Start talking about everything but your relationship. Talk about current events; ask her how she is doing at work, anything but your relationship.

Your wife likes her music and gym. Is there any way you can join her in this? Even if it means leaving your kids with some one who you trust for a while? In some gyms you can take the kids. Make her life your life. Show great interest in what she is going, how she is doing.

I did this with my H and his computer game thing… he was glued to it. I stopped complaining and joined him. So we moved him into my home office, I joined him in games over our home network (while we both sat in the same room… it was silly and fun) and on the Internet. We also had our kids join us in the games. We had a blast. Over a few months time spent playing games together brought us closer. And at some point we both just stopped spending so many hours on it. Now my H wants to spend more time with the kids, me and generally being engaged in life.

I think of it as a dance. If you and she are doing the waltz, and suddenly you switch to the tango, she is going to have to change her steps too. People get in patterns of relating to each other. IT all becomes so predictable. For example if you say “Honey, let’s go on a date.”, you already know how she is going to reply. So don’t bother saying that anymore. Find a different way to say it. Or maybe ask he what she wants to do.

The 180 is different for each person. It takes some thought and ingenuity. If you can describe some of your patterns of interaction, then maybe we can talk about it more.

A lot of what your wife is doing may be to punish you and to see if the changes in your real. So she keeps acting up to see if this one last thing will push you over the edge and back to who you are. My step kids do that to me. The keep testing me to see if I’ll walk out on them like their mom did. I’m hoping they run out of test pretty soon. (argh)

Is there a Plan A/B for the WS?

Generally a BS using Plan A for a short period of time in an attempt to negotiate the end of the affair, no contact and the spouse returning to work on the marriage. I know that some say it is the only thing that Plan A is used for… but I read in one of Harley articles here on this web site that it can also be used to negotiate any tough issue in marriage. In your situation, I’d say that you do still have an affair situation. Yes you were the WS in the past. But you are the BS now. Your wife had an affair on some level. She may have ended the affair, but she had not done the next steps… stop all contact with OM and agree to work on the marriage. So you plan A like any one would.

And as a note… the WS can Plan A the BS. My husband did that to me. When I discovered his affairs I was done with our marriage. He read Surviving an Affair and started to Plan A me to get me to agree to rebuild our marriage. It worked. I’m still here. I’m glad I stayed. We now live every day of our marriage by MB rules and concepts.

I’ve seen many people here do a plan A while they are separated.. every time you see her you do Plan A. And you try to increase the amount of time you see her.

NO wonder your wife is not handling this well. You are still working closely with the OW. Tell me if I’m wrong.. but from the time frames you gave it seems that things started to go badly again when the OW returned to your job site. Of course it did. If you are working with the OW you are not protecting and caring for your wife. I am sure that as far as your wife is concerned, your affair is still going on.

No contact means no contact. If you want your marriage to survive you have to never have contact with the OW again. This means you need to get a new job, maybe even move. Have you and your wife discussed establishing no contact with the OW? There is no reason why your wife should be asked to trust that you see the OW all the time but the affair is over. I would not buy it. Establishing no contact and doing anything you can, to include getting a new job, is a gift you give your wife to care for her and protect her.


In case I did not mention in previous posts, we have a 7 yr old D and a 3yr old S, who I have only seen once a week in the past 7 weeks. IT IS TEARING ME UP INSIDE.

This you should not allow for one more day. It is the one reason that you should see an attorney right now. In know that in my state I would have to file for a divorce to get a parenting plan in place. If I were you, I’d file for this reason only. And send your wife a letter telling her that you don’t want the divorce but you cannot tolerate for one day more not spending time with your children. She has absolutely no right to keep them from you. If you do not do everything in your power to see your children, then do not blame your wife. You are the one who is remiss.

Thanks Zorweb,

You gave me a lot of info there. I will answwer your points later when I have time (at work now). One quick pt: the EA between my W and the OM is over as far as I know. I am taking her word when she says she had him looked into and found out he goes to orgies (whatever) in NYC. Am I being naive with this.

Also, just got off phone with W. Since I have been out of the house, we bought a bed for our son. She tells me that no mattress came with it. Wanted to know if I would buy one for him (of course I will, but I told her I was busy and would call her back in half an hour). Another pt: she asked if I would mow the lawn because she isn't strong enough to; otherwise she will pay some boy in the neighborhood to do it. I todl I would have to think about it.

I will post again with what my interactions are like, and I appreciate your support.

TTSMM

W called me several times today. Last 2 times were very interesting. She wanted to talk. She told me she was reading this book, forgot the name, but I believe it was, "How to Understand Men". This is the first time since I've known her, to read a selfhelp book. She said that she made a lot of mistakes with men in the past, me in particular, that whe now understands and will be able to bring to her next relationship. She understands that many men need to view videos and look at mags, but that I should have never involved her in it.
In the beginning of our R she voluntairily would put a video in when I would come home from work on a Saturday morning. Other things she surprised me with her suggestions - I won't mention here.

Anyway, she stills blames me for her acting that way. Then she says I should have told her about my disease, sexual addiction, when we first met. (I like to watch videos, look at mags and have gone to strip clubs in the past.) I went to strip clubs when I went away on business sometimes. I was never unfaithful though.
I know I went to them because she told me not to. I felt like I was being told off by my mother. Therefore, I acted like the child she was treating me as and rebelled.

Prior to the A I became very involved in online chats, phone sex, hard core Internet porn, wanted to check out S&M w/W. I was all over the map. During the A, before she knew, she would constantly berage me and call me a sex addict. After many months of this abuse, I caved in and agreed to her I was. Now after a few years I feel I am NOT a sex addict. My C asked me what I would rather do, read a porn mag, go to a strip club, or make love to my W? I told him that I would rather make love to my W.
Now I occassionally check out a mag, video or website. I have not chatted since the A ended. In fact part of my job at work is to monitor employees Internet activities. In three years I have had 5 employees terminated for accessing child porn and/or rape sites using company PCs. A few more globally. I'm proud of that. I turned a negative in my life to a positive.

So back to her phone call. I just listened as she went through her litany of why we don't belong togther, we are sexually imcompatable. (According to "HN, HN" that can be resolved.) I continued being a good listener, even when she did start calling me names. She called me kinky, but said that that was OK if I was with SOE, but not in this M to her. I let her talk quite a lot and then I told her I was sitting down to dinner with my friends. Itold I had to find a place tp stay the next two nights because I didn't want to sleep in the car like I did a few weeks ago. "I'm not going to fell guilty, not after all the torment you put me through the last five years.", she said.

I told, "Tonight is my friends 'Date Night'". This started my W off. She believes that married couples do NOT go out on dates, they go out. My W is very big at playing semantic games, being an English Major. So she wants to now argue with me, saying I getting this from my men's group, and I'm trying to teach her, etc. I then told her that when a M couple go out on a date, it's like they are courting again. One S takes full responsibilty for the entire evening.

I would like to know people's take on is there a differnce between going out with your spouse and taking your spouse out on a date?

Then I mentioned what our date for our 10th anniversary was suppose to be: I take care of our kids dinner, bed clothes, and the baby sitter; my W takes care of herself; then we go to a local spa for a massage and aromatherapy and then a dinner for two at the spa. She went nuts.
"What makes you think I want to anything sexual with you."
"We are not massaging eachother."
"You didn't even ask me."
"It was going to be a surprise." (I wanted to tell her, the only thing you had planned for our 10th was to serve me D papers. But I didn't.)
"That shows part of your sickness."

I cut our phone call short so I could eat dinner. She calls back and leaves a msg that I am a sick person and must be very lonely, etc. Part of my sickness is how I degrade her: playing football with my cousin's girlfriend at a party because nooneelse wanted to. (We threw the ball around - no touch.) Also, she was upset because at our TRO hearing I carried my lawyer's, a female, briefcase.
"And you want to get with me and you do that."
I thought it was harmless. I didn't think. She must be testing me, if this ticked her off. I wish she would stop testing me and tell me what she wants.

that's that, for the phone call.

Today, I ordered, "Surving an Affair". I will get in 5 days.

Now, to answer some of your earlier questions on how I interact with her:

For example, do you start a lot of relationship talks with her? If you do, then stop it. Start talking about everything but your relationship. Talk about current events; ask her how she is doing at work, anything but your relationship.

We don't talk. She does. She comments on the notes I have written saying that I have no guts because I won't talk directly to her. When I do, she constantly interrupts and/or tells me that is not how I feel. I have stopped talking relationship w/her (the last 2 weeks) and she gets upset when I ask her how she is doing.

Your wife likes her music and gym. Is there any way you can join her in this? Even if it means leaving your kids with some one who you trust for a while? In some gyms you can take the kids. Make her life your life. Show great interest in what she is going, how she is doing.

I thought when we joined the gym, we would workout together occassionally. We did 2-3 times. But, she wanted the gym so she could get away from me (still does). This is where her EA with her personal trainer started.

As for music, she has always been snobbish around that. I like ABBA, she'd say they too bubble gum. I tried to understand and let her teach me about music and she would be disinterested. OR if she did, and I flubbed it later on, she'd be sarcastic. She feels, I believe, that you either know music or you don't. And she can't be bothered teaching me. "I can't be bothered" is one of her favorite sayings for everything in life that bothers her.

The problem with the 180 is I am already inconsistent in my interaction with her. How do I do something different, if almost everything I do is different. This is not self pity; I will try it because she is worth it.

In your situation, I’d say that you do still have an affair situation. Yes you were the WS in the past. But you are the BS now. Your wife had an affair on some level. She may have ended the affair, but she had not done the next steps… stop all contact with OM and agree to work on the marriage. So you plan A like any one would.

Her EA is over I believe. He is no longer at the gym and has moved on. Plus, as mentioned earlier, he goes to orgies in NYC, which disgusts her. She doesn't want to work on the marriage.

NO wonder your wife is not handling this well. You are still working closely with the OW. Tell me if I’m wrong.. but from the time frames you gave it seems that things started to go badly again when the OW returned to your job site. Of course it did. If you are working with the OW you are not protecting and caring for your wife. I am sure that as far as your wife is concerned, your affair is still going on.

You are correct. In fact on the voice mai she left tonight, she mentiones the OW and how she really doesn't believe my A is over. I spoke to my boss and she is going to find some contacts for me to find a new job. I fear I will not receive the same salary, which means we will lose the house (which we will lose in a D anyway).

This you should not allow for one more day. It is the one reason that you should see an attorney right now. In know that in my state I would have to file for a divorce to get a parenting plan in place. If I were you, I’d file for this reason only. And send your wife a letter telling her that you don’t want the divorce but you cannot tolerate for one day more not spending time with your children. She has absolutely no right to keep them from you. If you do not do everything in your power to see your children, then do not blame your wife. You are the one who is remiss.

I know. I fear that that will just start the ball rolling faster to an eventual divorce. I need more time to think of other legal alternatives.

She asked me if I was going to file for divorce on Monday, and I told her I don't know. She was upset.

Anyway, that is my LONG!!!!!!!!!! story for tonight.

Thanks.

Back to her being upset by me carrying my lawyers breif case. If she didn't still care on some level, for me, why would that bother her. Any women out there, pls give me a comment on that.

Why did I do that? I was raised by my Mom. My folks were separated (no legal action because they were Catholic) when I was about 9-10. My Dad was no at home a few years hbefore that. He worked as a security guard and slept at the job site. So I learned how to be a man from my Mom!.!.! One of the things I learned was to be helpful (selflessly) all the time. So when I carried the briefcase, I would have done this for a man or a woman. It makes no difference to me. I didn't think that my W would be so upset. Problem is I didn't think. Problem is I never discussed this above with her. Problem is I keep making the same <blank> mistakes over-and-over again
Anyway, based her reaction, maybe there is still hope. Our 10th is now in 4 days. Will she file? I don't plan to, except for the visitation with my kids.

I just got word from my friends that a babysitter is moving into their guest room (my current room) on July 12th. So I have to start looking for a place real quick.

Today I helped my friend tear down a ramp outside his house. When I was swinging the sledge hammer, he told me to think about my W. I couldn't. I love her and miss her.

I'm rambling.

That's all for today.

Zorweb,
Had a great day with my kids today. We went to church, McDonalds, the aquarium, a children's garden, carousel ride, train ride, Friendly's and the park. At first I did not know what to do for the 11 hours I had asked my W for. Especially, because every weekend it has rained in NJ. Since I don't have a permanent place to stay, I have had to find indoor things to do. This past 6-7 weeks has been very expensive: museums, play places, movies, etc. Once I have a place of my own I will be able to manage better with my kids.

In my church bulletin they have group thta meets once a week for widowed, divorced and separated parishiners. I am going to attend tomorrow. I figure it can't hurt, it will get me closer to God?, I can share about MB, I'll learn from others.

That's all!

tryingTOsaveMYmarriage,

Please forgive me if the following very long post seems harsh to you. It’s not my intent… my intent is to shake you to your senses. To give you honest feed back on what I see.

As long as you and your wife are talking there is hope for reconciliation. At this point just listen to her. She wants you to listen to her. Do not try to educate her, give her suggestions and so forth. Women talk about things so they can think them through aloud and get input. But in the end they want to make their own decisions and solve their own problems. Give her that room while you are supporting her by listening.

The definition of adultery often used is that an affair is when a spouse spends sexual and emotional energy outside of the marriage.

You have given me a much more thorough picture of what has gone on in your marriage. I understand now why your wife wants to divorce you.

You had an affair four years ago, you still work with the OW and your wife believes the affair is still going on, you went strip clubs when you traveled for business, watched porn videos, look at ‘girly’ magazines, were involved in online chats, phone sex, hard core Internet porn, wanted to check out S&M w/W.

Your behavior has been very consistent with the description of sexual addition. The book “Out of the Shadows” a good source on this topic. One of the key indicators of a sexual addiction is that the person keeps seeking out a higher level of thrill. And they have little regard for others in their pursuit.. to include their spouse. Sounds to me like that is what you were going.

It’s good that you have stopped much of this activity. But you are still doing it on some level. You say that you still look at porn sites and girly magazines. I am not a prude when it comes to my sex life. But if my husband did this I would consider leaving him. It would mean that he is seeking sexual release outside of our marriage.
I will bet that your wife is bothered by your continued use of porn. To her it might only serve to prove that you have not really changed.

Anther thing that bothers me is that you blame her for your actions. You said that you did these things because she asked you not to. A man and a husband gives his wife what she needs. What you did instead was to act defiantly like a 15 year old and say that you could do whatever you wanted to do. And then you did what ever you wanted to. I don’t think that what she told you had anything to do with your actions. You probably would have done these things because you wanted to do them. This is something you will need to take responsibility for and apologize sincerely to your wife for.

Then you say that she abused you by constantly berating you and calling you a sex addict and that after months of her abuse, you caved in and agreed with her. She joined you in these activities but did not like them. You did not want to please your wife. She tried to join you and please you but found that she did not like playing the part of a porno queen. I don’t blame her.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m hardly a prude when it comes to my sex life. But what you did was to discount you wife, blame her for your extramarital sexual activity (affair, porno, strip clubs, cyber sex, phone sex, etc.) and then you call it abuse when she tries to get you to understand where she is coming from. I am sure that she yelled and said some unpleasant things sometimes. If you expect her to forgive you for spreading your sexual life all over the place .. the sexual life you promised her fidelity in when you married her.. then certainly you can forgive her for getting exasperated and not knowing how to get you to hear what she was saying.

Your extramarital sex life.. all of the forms it took are solely your responsibility. I see now why your wife is unsure about working on your marriage. You will need to own up more to what you did and take responsibility for it.

Are you a sex addict? I have no idea. But you have certainly acted out sexually. Just because you told a counselor that you’d rather make love to your wife then do these things does not mean anything. A person’s actions speak much louder then their words. At the very least you gave very little consideration to your wife.

What does concern me is that you seem to have an excuse for all of your actions .. your affair, your sexual acting out and are in denial of it all. It’s all your wife’s fault. You may want to read the book “Out of the Shadows”. It is a pretty good descript of what they call sexual addiction. Your behavior certainly does fit the description.

Your wife was not treating you like a mother when asked you to not got to strip clubs and do these things. She was acting like a wife who told her husband what she needed from him and as exasperated when he seemed to not care for her needs and feelings.

And now your wife has lost faith in you and your marriage. There is no excuse for her current behavior. But she cannot be condemned too harshly for giving up on you.

"I'm not going to fell guilty, not after all the torment you put me through the last five years.", she said.

You did put her through a lot of torment. I’m surprised she stayed with you after all of that. The right answer from you is to take responsibility for your actions.

“Yes I put you through a lot. I did things that were wrong. I take full responsibility for them. I am sorry. I hope you can forgive for some day.”

That’s it.

You need to let this silly date semantics thing go. So she thinks its stupid. She’s entitled to her opinion. My take is that she sees it as representatative of something she things is a game. So drop it. It does sound like you are trying to teach her. Don’t use the word “date” anymore. Don’t tell her why you are doing what you are doing. Just say that it is your friends’ night out. When you ask her out just tell her that you want to go out. Just do it. Let her decide after the “outing” (I will not use the word date least lightening strikes me.) she feels that she is being courted again. Telling her that the purpose will not work.

You have a choice here… get caught up in stupid arguments about semantics or working on your marriage. When some thing like the ‘date’ thing comes up, just accept what she says as her opinion. “Ah, I see what you are saying.” Then drop it.

So she wants to now argue with me, saying I getting this from my men's group, and I'm trying to teach her, etc. I then told her that when a M couple go out on a date, it's like they are courting again. One S takes full responsibilty for the entire evening.

There, you are trying to teach her. It takes two to argue. If you respond as I suggested above there will be no argument. You can just move on to another topic.

I would like to know people's take on is there a difference between going out with your spouse and taking your spouse out on a date?

There is absolutely no difference between this. It’s all semantics. My h and I ask each other out. Sometimes I ask him, some times he asks me. The asker treats. But in the end it’s all the same bank account. If you want to date your wife just ask her out and treat her to a good time.

Then I mentioned what our date for our 10th anniversary was suppose to be: I take care of our kids dinner, bed clothes, and the baby sitter; my W takes care of herself; then we go to a local spa for a massage and aromatherapy and then a dinner for two at the spa. She went nuts.

"What makes you think I want to anything sexual with you."
"We are not massaging each other."
"You didn't even ask me."
"It was going to be a surprise." (I wanted to tell her, the only thing you had planned for our 10th was to serve me D papers. But I didn't.)
"That shows part of your sickness."

This type of exchange is just one exchange like the one about the word ‘date’. I do not think that she is out of line here. You are separated and yet you plan a ‘date’ that is one for lovers. Yea her comment about your sickness was a little over the top. But just realize what is going on between the two of you right now. If I were you, I’d apologize to her for assuming that she would want such a romantic outing. Then ask her to dinner at a very nice restaurant… or ask her what she wants to do.

She calls back and leaves a msg that I am a sick person and must be very lonely, etc. Part of my sickness is how I degrade her: playing football with my cousin's girlfriend at a party because no one else wanted to. (We threw the ball around - no touch.)

If you want to rebuild your marriage you are going to have to accept her anger for a while. My counselor told me that the price a WS pays for their infidelity is to have to listen to their spouse express their anger and hurt over and over again until the anger is gone. Just tell her that you understand how she feels. That you have done some pretty stupid things. By doing this you take the wind out of her sails. She cannot hardly argue with a person how is agreeing with her.

You have a pretty bad track record. Your wife does not feel emotionally safe around you. She may not feel physically safe either as she has no idea where you have been sexually.. STD’s are a real possibility. You will have to go to extraordinary measures to make her feel safe… playing football with your cousin’s girlfriend does not make your wife feel safe. So don’t do it. What is more important to you? Throwing a football around, your cousin’s girl friend or your wife? My husband and I have the agreement that if either of us engages in an activity that makes the other feel threatened, we will tell the other, and the behavior will be ended there and then. It’s a commitment we make to each other. After his affairs, this means the world to me.

Also, she was upset because at our TRO hearing I carried my lawyer's, a female, briefcase.
"And you want to get with me and you do that."

While on the surface that may seem still for her to be upset about. But let’s look at it in another light. Would you have carried the briefcase if your attorney were a man? You pay our attorney a lot of money to work for you. Don’t carry her brief case. I’m going to repeat this because you don’t get it.. your actions over the years have shown your wife that she is the last woman on earth that you are really thinking about. If you want to make her feel safe you are going to have to take extraordinary precautions. You should not give one iota of your time and energy to any other woman. After what you have done, that is what it will take to convince her that she will be safe with you.

I thought it was harmless. I didn't think. She must be testing me, if this ticked her off. I wish she would stop testing me and tell me what she wants.

Your wife has told you very clearly what she wants. She wants a husband who puts her first. One who does not go to strip clubs, chats, uses porn and girly magazines. She wants to feel loved and cherished.

While you think that you have made huge strides with the men’s group she is afraid to trust it. I can understand that. She is afraid that once she lets her guard down you will revert to your old ways. It is a legitimate concern. You will have to show consistency for a fair amount of time before she can feel that she can trust you.

What bothers me, and probably her, is that while you can speak of the things like going on dates and courting her. You do not really take responsibility for your sexual acting out, your affair and doing things like playing football with some girl and carrying your attorney’s brief case. A good test for things like carrying brief cases or helping another person is this… when you are about to help a woman, especially a attractive woman, imagine for a moment that she is some guy .. say Danny De Vito. Now would you carry Danny’s brief case? NO? Then don’t do it for the woman either. If you do you are doing it because you want her attention, not because she needs help.

I am glad that you ordered Surviving an affair. You should get a lot out of it. After that read His Needs, Her Needs and Love Busters.

Now, to answer some of your earlier questions on how I interact with her:

For example, do you start a lot of relationship talks with her? If you do, then stop it. Start talking about everything but your relationship. Talk about current events; ask her how she is doing at work, anything but your relationship.

I have stopped talking relationship w/her (the last 2 weeks) and she gets upset when I ask her how she is doing.

That she gets upset about this is a good sign. It means that she is conflicted. She had not totally made up her mind about you. That is good. Continue to not go into relationship talks for a while. Instead listen to her. Acknowledge what she ways. Remember she is unloading right now. Let her. Later, once she gets all of this out she will be calmer and more able to discuss things.

So she is a music snob. Why not just listen to the music, say little accept to show your appreciation and to admire how much she knows? It might work. As long as you two do not have activates you do together, the possibility of marital recovery is pretty small.

The problem with the 180 is I am already inconsistent in my interaction with her. How do I do something different, if almost everything I do is different. This is not self pity; I will try it because she is worth it.

I don’t think you are inconsistent at all. What is see is that you two have a pattern in which one of you says something and the other goes on to put the other down. The idea of the 180 is to stop this pattern of interaction. That is why I am suggesting that you agree with whatever she says, apologize for your wrong doings. And just listen to you.. tell you that she is right, you understand, etc. This is the last thing se expects. I may very well get her attention.

I fear I will not receive the same salary, which means we will lose the house (which we will lose in a D anyway).

It is good that you are looking for a new job. It’s an unfortunate affect of having an affair in the work place. On the other hand, if you are getting a divorce why get a new job. Have you discussed this move with your wife? Told her that to make her feel save you are contemplating getting a new job? If she does not bite on the idea right way, then give her time to think about it. She may decide that if you are willind to do that, that is shows that the affair is over.

This you should not allow for one more day. It is the one reason that you should see an attorney right now. In know that in my state I would have to file for a divorce to get a parenting plan in place. If I were you, I’d file for this reason only. And send your wife a letter telling her that you don’t want the divorce but you cannot tolerate for one day more not spending time with your children. She has absolutely no right to keep them from you. If you do not do everything in your power to see your children, then do not blame your wife. You are the one who is remiss.

I know. I fear that that will just start the ball rolling faster to an eventual divorce. I need more time to think of other legal alternatives.

She asked me if I was going to file for divorce on Monday, and I told her I don't know. She was upset.

Anyway, that is my LONG!!!!!!!!!! story for tonight.

Thanks.

Back to her being upset by me carrying my lawyers breif case. If she didn't still care on some level, for me, why would that bother her. Any women out there, pls give me a comment on that.

It bothers her because she does still care. And she looking for every little bit of proof that you have not changed. This is not to test you but to protect herself.

Why did I do that? I was raised by my Mom. My folks were separated (no legal action because they were Catholic) when I was about 9-10. My Dad was no at home a few years hbefore that. He worked as a security guard and slept at the job site. So I learned how to be a man from my Mom!.!.! One of the things I learned was to be helpful (selflessly) all the time. So when I carried the briefcase, I would have done this for a man or a woman. It makes no difference to me. I didn't think that my W would be so upset. Problem is I didn't think. Problem is I never discussed this above with her. Problem is I keep making the same <blank> mistakes over-and-over again
Anyway, based her reaction, maybe there is still hope. [b]

I’m glad to hear that you had a good day with your children. I’m sure that it’s hard.

[b]In my church bulletin they have group that meets once a week for widowed, divorced and separated parishioners. I am going to attend tomorrow. I figure it can't hurt, it will get me closer to God?, I can share about MB, I'll learn from others.

Ah, this is a singles group… not a marital recovery group. From my experience these groups are a great way to meet someone, not to rebuild your marriage. Your wife could use this as another reason why you are no serious… already joining singles groups. Just a heads up.