Danish,

You are really doing an excellent Plan A....one of the best I have ever seen...and I've seen alot. I think you are being a little bit TOO nice and accomodating...but that is way better than Love Busting and you should feel very proud. I want to suggest something to you, and I'd like Zorweb and maybe Coffeman or any other verterans to chime and tell me what they think.

The REAL VALUE of a good Plan A is performance (and you get an A+) and TIMING. Don't let your move to an apartment set the timing for your Plans....let the circumstances in your marriage help you decide when to move to Plan B. And that time is very very soon. I'll tell you why I think so in a minute.

I am saying this because I think that you are reaching the limit of time you should stay in this plan. (for a WH it should be no longer than three months...shorter if they are enjoying it) Right now, your husband refuses to let you in his life....but he freely enters yours. He has two women who are fulfilling his needs and making him fell good about himself. He has all of your love, inspite of no remorse, and he has the OW. He believes he can eat cake, because he knows at this point that you are hoping he will come back. All of this sounds awful, but it isn't. It is all a testimony to the wonderful Plan A that you are doing. But never forget, that this huge sacrifice that you are making has one goal.....and one goal only....to END the affair. To show your spouse that your marriage is more attractive than the affair. You mentioned one time that you helped him feel less guilty. Don't do that again. Part of your Plan A is confrontation....not angry confrontation, but expressing your pain and sorrow in a non LB way. Guilt leads to remorse....and that is something you want him to encourage. To listen to his conscience and KNOW that what he is doing is destructive and wrong in your eyes and in the eyes of God. All of the things you are doing to feel great about you are wonderful. That kind of independence and detachment are perfect for a Plan B.

I think you are ready to do a Plan B....and I want to be specific about why I think so.

*If you continue doing this plan during his vacation with this girl, you will look foolish because he will be enjoying himself with zero accountability. If you will allow him to take advantage of that situation....he will...because you aren't stopping him.

*If you continue Plan A, he will have his needs met by both of you and will not be able to see how this OW cannot meet all of his needs....because right now, you still fulfill alot of needs for him. If you stop...he will be able to see her faults...and not yours.

*Once they are living together, there will be all sorts of opportunities for her to LB. If he can't see you, all he will remember about you is the tender care you gave him in Plan A.

*Once she gets here...he will spend the majority of his time with her and will not even give you much opportunity to do Plan A at all anyway.

You said that you can't do a Plan B while you are still in the house? Why not? If he gets private space....why shouldn't you? You, in your home, have the same rights as he does in his apartment. If he must come to the house to gather things....leave....but make the process as quickly as possible.

I'm not saying that you should do a Plan B today....but I AM saying that I don't see this benefitting you much beyond the time the OW arrives. It should be soon....and the timing is very important. One of the biggest mistakes I see on the board every single day....Is staying in Plan A TOO LONG. I don't want to push you, I just want to give you good food for thought and some things to think about.

You are doing amazing and I have great respect for you. Your husband is a fool.

Danish,
Today as I read the events that took place in your life tears came to my eyes.You are incredable and your H is so blind not to see it.I do understand what you mean about him thinking that you are brought to tears easily,I try very hard not to let my H see me cry anymore,he is not blind, he can see my pain and I am finding out, that alone is bringing a change in the way he is treating me.For you it may be the strength he sees in you that brings a change.We are all here for you.I am not a vetran like some I am a beginner still trying to recover but I hope I can give you an encouraging word when you need it most. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I agree with Star. If you go into Plan B when OW arrives it will put a huge amount of pressure on their relationship. All of the sudden he will have to depend on her for everything.

Generally in life a person has maybe 50% of their EN’s met at any one time. The seduction of an affair is that suddenly the WS has close to 100% of their EN’s met all of the time. Why wouldn’t a person want that? If I could have that in life I’d take it. If it was morally and socially acceptable and my husband would not be bothered by it, I’d do it in a heart beat. Why not? This is part of the fantasy of an affair. Your husband things that this woman is the only one making him feel wonderful. Is does not recognize your contributions to his well being. If you go to Plan B as soon as the OW arrives, it will starve him of the EN’s that you meet. It will also put a huge amount of pressure on the OW. They have not had to be everything for each other. They have not seen each other at their worse. And then what happens the day she leaves?

I would suggest that you get a Plan B letter written and ready to go. Over the next few days, until she arrives you can continue to Plan A. But you also must tell him in a very non-love buster way that what he is doing is hurting you and ask him to end his affair and have no further contact with her. Some people give their spouse a ‘Plan A’ letter. That way he can read it over and over again.

Then once she arrives deliver your Plan B letter to your husband. This will cut off all contact between the two of you. Believe me, it will be much harder for you to do an affective Plan A once the OW is here. So ending it while he has seen you doing such a wonderful Plan is a very good idea. And don’t forget that when he gets a copy of the Plan B letter, you send one to the OW as well. This way she is very clear as to where you stand with your marriage and what you have told your husband about it. Now their wonderful 3 months together will start with this bombshell. It should cause some contention between them. Your husband will probably be shocked and maybe even hurt beyond belief that you would just cut him off like that. It’s not an unusual reaction for a WS to have to Plan B.

Is there anyway you can have the letter delivered to each of them individually at your husband’s apartment? In the USA I’d do with certified, registered mail that required the signature of the recipient. And that way I’d have their signatures showing that they got the letters. Just a thought.

Do give this some serious consideration. We can help you with both your Plan A and your Plan B letters if you want us to.

Star is right.. you are incredible. You must be the most ‘together’ BS I’ve ever seen here. You deserve so much better than this. If your husband looses you over this, I am sure the day will come when he will be kicking himself over his stupidity. For what? A fantasy?

Danish,

I also so wanted to add something else. You know that Plan A is all about the WS, but Plan B is all about you. It's designed to protect you from further suffering, and to protect the love you have left for you spouse. How much harder do you think it will be not to LB or to do a Plan A once this OW is sleeping with your H everynight? If you see him and he seems happy, how much harder will it be not have deep pain and lose love for your spouse? You will finally have the opportunity to change places with this OW. She will now be the everyday thing....and you the unattainable one. Just some more to think about. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (((((((Danish))))))))

>>> star*fish & zorweb

I'm so grateful for your kindness and I find your "food for thought" replies very helpful. Thank you - I would have been totally lost without your help and support! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

After reading your posts I have thought a great deal about what Plan B really is - when is the best time for Plan B - and... can I do it to perfection at all?
From saturday when OW arrives I just know I don't want to see WH - It will hurt too much to see him happy with another woman. We have to communicate about S though... there is no way I can find someone who is willing to be the contact person in the summertime.
Would it be OK while in Plan B to communicate by E-mail and text messages on the cell phone?

There is a few other dilemmas as I see it:

- Should I go to the summer house - If I do I am not in Plan B, right? If I don't my son will be very disappointed.

- My WH is 'running' a website from one of our two computers. It's gonna be a while before he gets a cable internet connection at his new place, so he asked me if he could come to the house when he needed to update the site. I said OK but now I'm having second thoughts about it. But - he'll never be able to fix the uploads, the connection, or the website without me b/c I'm the one who taught him the little he knows about computers and web. I want to make him see that he needs me for that aswell - but I promised he could let his computer stay here for a while. I'm going to keep the other computer - a fairly new one.

Thursday WH comes to the house to borrow my car for transport of the last furnitures and stuff to his apartment - I could give him a Plan A or B letter that day!?

I never wrote a Plan A letter and now it's almost too late. There is a lot of things and feelings I didn't get a chance to tell him I had/have. I wish I could write a combination of a Plan A & B letter? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
After D-day I told WH that I loved him, always have, always will - that I was hurt beyond belief - that I knew I made mistakes in our M too - I was willing to change and work on me and our M if only he would give me a chance - that I had already forgiven him for having the A in Spain but I wanted him to stop all contact with OW... you know he turned my offer down. That is the closest I have been to a Plan A letter. The problem is that I know the written word will stay in his mind MUCH longer - I think he already forgot what I said that day if he listened at all.

Star*fish - was it you who pointed out that I was maybe TOO nice? - I think you're right! I'm almost sure WH got the impression that my pain is gone and forgotten. What should I do to make him understand I'm still in pain - without begging and crying in front of him?

Any help regarding the letter and the other questions would be greatly appreciated!

>>> ginger

I'm so glad you are here! That you continue to encourage me to keep going and growing. Thank you!

About the tears - Who wouldn't cry in a crisis like an A is bringing to the M? We have a RIGHT to be sad and a VERY good reason for it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
It's good to know that your H takes notice of your pain and treats you better.

Danish,

I think that you can avoid being too nice by simply being radically honest....always the best policy anyway. "H, I am tired of crying and begging, and when I see you...I put on my best smile, because I want you to remember me when I look the most beautiful. But every day that goes by that you refuse to end contact with the OW hurts me to the depth of my soul, and you need to remember THAT also. Holding my head up high takes an incredible amount of effort when my spirit is so low. I do this because I love you, not to free you from responsibility."

Danish, I see the problems with his computer...as unfortunately part of the price for continuing his affair. Unless you two profit greatly from it....I'd let him feel the pain of having it fall apart. You can't continue to pick up the pieces for him. If you really want him to see how much he needs you in this area....the best way to do that...is to withdraw your help. If it's really profitable, you might just maintain it yourself....but do not do it for him....do it for you. Your husband needs a dose of reality....so he doesn't stay in dreamland too long. The OW will become a real person when she moves in....warts and all. It's not vacation any longer. Make that work to your advantage.

I don't know about the arrangements for the summer house....but your son is old enough to understand that things have changed. He may resent it, and I don't blame him. But let him know that he needs to save that resentment for his daddy....where it belongs. Don't you dare take any responsibility to ruining his summer. Put the ball in H's court.....tell your son...that if dad gives up the girl...you can go to the summer house as planned...if not...sorry then dad has decided that he doesn't want a family anymore. Don't let your son or your husband manipulate you into thinking this is your fault....it isn't.

I am saying my strongest prayers for you. Somehow I truly believe you will beat this thing. I am sending you sunshine <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Danish,
Thanks for the kind words.
Look at you in the middle of the storm you are looking out for others I think in that way we are probably alot alike. I read the words that star fish wrote and they are so strong but so true,he made the choice now he must live with the aftermath.Even in my situation things are not perfect, we still have a long way to go my H means well it is putting his words into action that are hard for him,but he is still paying a price for a very bad choice.

Keep strong just reading your post daily helps me to look at myself in a different way, I want to be strong!!!!

Can you do Plan B to perfection. Yes… you are a pro at Plan A. Plan B can be much easier because you do not have to have any contact. You will be on a much more stable emotional ground.

“I don't want to see WH - It will hurt too much to see him happy with another woman. “

This is exactly why Plan B is a good idea when OW arrives. By having her come here your husband is show you such blatant disrespect. There is no way you need to bring this into your life.

Yes, if you do not have a person who can be a go-between for parenting in Plan B, then using email and text messaging to communicate about your son during Plan B is the way to go. During the time of my divorce from my previous husband I had to cut off all face-to-face and telephone contact with him because he used each contact to berate me and to start an emotional argument. I found that the email and voice messages worked wonderfully. I still using them primarily for interacting with him… it’s been 6 years now (boy does time fly). What I like about it is that it gives me time to decide what I will respond to. I just ignored all the emotional stuff and responded to the parts dealing directly with our son.

- Should I go to the summer house - If I do I am not in Plan B, right? If I don't my son will be very disappointed.

Is this after the OW leaves? Certainly not while she is here. At this point I don’t think you should go to the summerhouse. As long as he is not willing to give up OW, is living out of your home, and is not willing to work on your marriage, then no. This is called cake eating on his part. He has OW for fun and you and your son when he wants to play dad/married man. There is no way you should permit him to use you in this manner.

Yes your son will be disappointed. But this is part of the reality of his father’s actions. So far you son has felt little of what his father’s affair and a divorce will do to his life. You will need to discuss this with your son.. telling him that you cannot go on a vacation with his father as his under the circumstances. That unless his father decides to return home and work on your marriage and family, then things like joint vacations will never happen again. Can you plan to do something else with you son that he would like? I live in the Western USA. I’d take my son to Circus Circus in Las Vegas, Nevada. IT would be a very good substitute. What is in your part of the world that you could do with your son?

As for your husband’s website… don’t help him with it any more. This is one of the many things you do to meet his EN’s. You help him with the things that are important to him. So the web site will not be updated because in Plan B he will not be allowed to enter your home. You will not be able to help him as you cannot talk to him. This should be mentioned in your Plan B letter. You may need to close down the web site. He can do with it what he pleases once he has cable modem. This is no longer your concern.

but I promised he could let his computer stay here for a while.

You did let him keep it there for a while… until the OW arrived. Maybe you could take the computer to his parent’s house and let him deal with it from that point on.

Thursday WH comes to the house to borrow my car for transport of the last furnitures and stuff to his apartment - I could give him a Plan A or B letter that day!?

Yes you could give it to him on that day… but if you do, will he read it in your presence? I don’t think you want him to. Maybe, after he returns your car. Hand it to him as he leaves, telling him to read it when he gets home. You will also want to get it to the OW. Maybe you could email it to her. Does your H have email at all at his new place? If so you could email it to both of them.

I never wrote a Plan A letter and now it's almost too late. There is a lot of things and feelings I didn't get a chance to tell him I had/have. I wish I could write a combination of a Plan A & B letter?

I did not realize at first how short your time frame is here. You probably do not have time for a Plan A letter. As for the combination Plan A & B letter. In many ways the Plan B letter says the same things you would say in a Plan A letter. Just that you add the no contact thing with him to it. Have you seen the sample Plan B letter? I don’t have time to type it in right now. I know I’ve done this in the past as have others. If you do not find it some time today, I will type it for you tonight.

People do not always use a Plan A letter. You stated it all to him. If you could write it down, what you said in a brief letter and get it to him today that would work. Otherwise just go to the Plan B letter.

I agree with Star that you could mitigate some of the ‘too nice’ you have been doing with simply being radically honest to. Letting him know that he is hurting you.

Have you decided to go to Plan B? If so we can help you fine-tune the letter as it’s very hard to write…. Too emotionally loaded at a time like this.

Big ((((((HUGS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )))))) to you
star*fish, zorweb & ginger

Very good advice regarding radical honesty. I think I missed that point in my very short Plan A because I was afraid to bring up subjects that had anything to do with our relationship... now it is going to be a part of my Plan B letter instead.

The computer has to go - there's no profit from the website and you're right, zorweb - it is no longer my concern. I'll drop it off at MIL's place sometime next week because I need some time to delete and move my things from it - I'll have time to do it in the weekend.

The trip to the summerhouse was supposed to take place the second week in july:
WH called to day to ask what time he could borrow the car thursday. Then he asked me what I would like us to do during the days in the summerhouse. I said that it might not be such a good idea to go at all, and he said "No maybe not - when the two of us have problems talking to eachother... but for the sake of S shouldn't we go?". I said "I dont feel I have a problem talking to you, but I see no reason to go when you have chosen to be with OW, and S will understand if we explain it to him, that we will not be together doing thing as a family anymore."
WH was quiet for a moment and then he said that he wanted S and him to go anyway - I told him that it will be fine with me as long as OW is not there.
It was a rather strange conversation... WH paused after nearly every one of my replies and kinda waited for me to ask questions. I did not. I spoke softly and was polite.

I have decided to go to Plan B
I'll write the letter and hand it over when he brings back the car thursday evening as you suggested, zorweb. I'll 'build' the letter over the one from Jon to Sue from SAA adding my own thoughts and statements of course.

There is one minor issue though - we have a scheduled meeting in the City office department july 4. Everyone in Denmark who wants to separate has to go to this 'counseling' and agree to make agreements regarding child support, residence, ... the future.. and sign some papers. I have to go to that meeting so I will see WH that day no matter what.
Maybe I should deliver my Plan B letter that day instead - but then again, OW is here and waiting for him 'at home' that day. What would you suggest?

Thank you so much for believing in me and for helping me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ June 24, 2003, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: Danish ]</small>

Hi Danish,
I want to ask how you are but I am sure with all that is happening you are holding up the best you can. I think your decision about the computer is the right one he should not be able to come and go as he pleases that will only hurt you and you do not need any more hurt than you are already dealing with.

How about a small vacation just for you and your S?Could you manage that? I think after all you have been through you need a vacation. It will be hard to enjoy yourself I'm sure, I still have a hard time enjoying life but you need to do it.

You never talk about your family are your parents around are they helping you through all of this? Do you have any support system at all like a close friend or family member? And what about the in-laws,what do they think of all of this?

You know Danish the saddest thing is that one day your H is going to wake up and relize he has lost the best thing he ever had in life YOU <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

My thoughts are with you take care.

Hi ginger! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

S and I will take a short vacation this summer. My parents own a yacht and we'll join them on a 'cruise' to Sweden.
We have a wonderful family - esp. my sister has been VERY supportive. The good thing is that she understand the pain I'm going through. Her husband made the same 'mistake' 6 years ago as mine did 2 months ago.
My brother and SIL and my parents are very supportive and thay give me all the hugs and care I need. They just don't understand why I want WH back when he did this to us.

I have a lot of close friends - they care about me and S sincerely - but they don't understand why I believe I can make him come back. Forget about him and get on with your life - we will be there for you always... that's what they tell me and I know it is true.

However - this MB Plan - it is very few of my loved ones who knows about it.
That is one of the reasons why I love you guys here at MB - most of you comes from the other side of the world - but you are all very real and important to me.

Thanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Danish,
I know I think it is so neat that I feel like I am a part of your life we may never meet face to face but I can say I have a friend who live in a whole different world than me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I'm glad to hear about your family. Do you know that I have only told one person about my H A.He is a pastor, a customer at the store where I work when he comes in we always talk about our M and one day I told him why I was hurting so much. No one else exept the people here know.I did that to protect my H. I always have felt like I needed to protect him be his helper whether or not he knew it.

People do not understand how you can still love someone that has hurt you so. But we can.You love your H and that is why you do what you do and it is ok.You are a better person because of it.

It is hard for me when I hear people say if my H ever cheated I would leave,or once a cheater always a cheater.For me I have to learn to trust again and believe that he will never do this again and I too always thought that if my H cheated on me I would leave.The trueth is I still love him and I don't want to leave I want to try and work it out even though it is very difficult at times.

You are special,and I am sure everyone sees that,it is hard to see your child or sister being hurt so you naturally want to give advice to leave and move on but the trueth is it is not always that easy.
Take care Danish talk to you soon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Big ((((((HUGS )))))) to you
star*fish, zorweb & ginger

I think I missed that point in my very short Plan A because I was afraid to bring up subjects that had anything to do with our relationship..

Radical honesty is different than bringing up relationship subject. When you use the radical honesty you do not bring it up for discussion. You state how you feel and what you need. For example, every time he has contact with OW you tell him “It hurts me when you are in contact with her. I would like you to end your affair.” That is radical honesty.

That is very different then “We have not talk, now. I cannot take your affair. When are you going to end your affair? What do you want to hurt me like this… yada yada yada…” And then expecting him to respond and discuss it with you.

Does that make sense?

Your husband’s reaction to your side of the conversation about the summer vacation is very interesting. I think you are getting through to him. Seems that he did not know how to take the new you. Good. It’s easy for him to accept his own affair. But for you to show independence??? I think you got to him.

I’m curious, OW is going to be there in July. If he went to the summerhouse with you and your son in July, where was the OW going to be? Was he going to leave her alone to be with you.

Remember that when you write your Plan B letter, OW gets a copy of it too so that she knows where you stand and that you still would like to recover your marriage. One of your goals is to put as much pressure and unhappiness into their relationship. For that reason, I think it would be wise for you to mention his invitation for you to go on a vacation with him to the summerhouse…. You know, what you already told him about it.

Let’s think about when you should deliver the Plan B letter…..

If you give it to him on Thursday evening, then you can just mention in it that you will be seeing him at the July 4th meeting, as it is required. But there will be no other contact. Thursday is a couple of days before OW arrives. So he about his ahead of time and has a chance to end the affair before she gets here. But I doubt this will happen. It will be hard for you to get a copy of it to the OW unless you have her copy delivered separately. He will have time to digest the letter before she arrives. It will not be as disruptive.

If you give it to him at the end of the meeting, and have a copy delivered to the OW at the same time. Now he has to go deal with the shock of the letter and it’s intrusion into his ‘happy’ little fantasy.

Delivering it after the meeting has its fine points. Another way to do is to just get it to the two of them on the day she arrives.

What do you think fits your needs the best?

I am glad to hear that you have such strong support. And now I’m jealous… a yacht ‘cruse’ to Sweden. It will do you and your son a world of good.

Danish,

I was so gratified to hear the confusion your husband exhibited when you told him about the vacation. Those long silences said more than his words!!! It registers the shock he feels that you may actually be able to move on without him. It is just another sign that the timing is right. He has had the safety net of your love for a long time....let's see if he can fly without it. I don't think he realizes how much he depends on you....but he will, and will color the way he sees this OW.

Zorweb has made some excellent points about timing and Radical Honesty. I feel very secure that you are strong enough to do this, and the kind of independence and strength you are showing will be very attractive to your husband, and ruin his time with the OW. He is confused....and that is a very good thing.

My thoughts and prayers remain with you, and I am sending you warm cyber hugs to follow you in your day.

((((((((((((Danish))))))))))))))))

>>> Zorweb
I see the difference between radical honesty and R talk much more clear now! Thank you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If he went to the summerhouse with you and your son in July, where was the OW going to be? Was he going to leave her alone to be with you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I asked him about that and he said it was no problem. I suppose she would stay in his apartment?!

Is it really necessary to give the OW a copy of my Plan B letter? I'm afraid they both will laugh at me being so stupid to think he'll maybe someday be willing work on our M....

Delivering the letter after the meeting the 4th july will be best I think.
I wrote a Plan A letter today. I plan on giving it to him thursday evening - but I'm not quite sure yet. I told him several times that I was hurt. He saw me cry my heart out... before he moved out. Since then he has not seen me cry and I've been pretending to be fine - actually I AM feeling good most of the time.
Is it good or bad if he think I'm OK without him and 'moving on with my life'?
Sorry - I know I should know the answer but I'm having an off-day today... insecure about everything.

Don't be jealous... I'm not sure about the "yacht" definition - It's only a 34 feet sailboat - I'm sure we'll enjoy the trip though. You can come too if you like! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

>>> star*fish

I need your prayers and hugs - thanks a lot <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't really know if my independence will be attractive - I think one of his EN's is admiration. WH told me very little about his trip to Spain but one thing he pointed out was that everyone he met admired him b/c he speak 4 different languages - he liked that a lot.

>>> ginger

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is hard for me when I hear people say if my H ever cheated I would leave,or once a cheater always a cheater </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I have heard that too. We all have our prejudices and principles to deal with - when we experience these things ourselves we learn and grow - suddently understanding and seeing things from more than one perspective.

Thanks for caring <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You will be OK!

<small>[ June 25, 2003, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: Danish ]</small>

Hi Danish I don't have time to talk today but I did not want a day to go by with out letting you know that I have been thinking of you all day I will check in tomorrow and write more.
Thinking of you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I asked him about that and he said it was no problem. I suppose she would stay in his apartment?![/ quote]
This is really weird. I wonder if she has some sort of a side trip planned for those days. Oh well, my curiosity it getting the best of me.
[quote]Is it really necessary to give the OW a copy of my Plan B letter? I'm afraid they both will laugh at me being so stupid to think he'll maybe someday be willing work on our M.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All I know is that it is what Dr. Harley says to do. He is the marriage recover guru. I can see both good points and bad points about it. The one that stands out the most to me is that I have always found that being honest and not allowing secrets to be kept always has the best results. I’d bet that there is a 99% chance that he has lied up a storm to her. That even with our email to her, he’s told her things like he do not love him, you were the one who kicked him out, etc. The stories I’ve heard OW tell are ridiculous. They are working so hard to protect their fantasy.
And if they should laugh at your Plan B letter, then the shame of it is upon them. I have to tell you that I am very bias against anyone who will have an affair with a married person. And one who would go along with what your husband has done and move in with him for a long vacation… definitely not someone I understand. I am sure that any reaction she has will be self-serving. But I am also sure that the reaction will go a long way to hurting her relationship with your husband. JMHO
By the way, the fact that your husband wants to go on a vacation with you and your son while she is here speaks volumes. Your husband may think he is done with your relationship but he’s not. That vacation is an attempt to keep a relationship going with both you and the OW. This is exactly why I believe that Plan B will hit him hard.
I look back to the way I was when I left my ex-husband. (He was abusive and had many OW’en over the 20 years we were together.) I was done with him. From the day I left him I cut off all contact with him. He had to contact my attorney to get a message to me or send me an email. And we were co-parenting a 7 year old at the time. I refused to speak to him on the phone or in person. It was not a Plan B, it was a ‘Plan Get Out Of My Life’. That is how a person behaves when they are done with their marriage. They do not invite their estranged spouse on a vacation.
So Plan B could have a very big affect on him.
Your plan for delivering the Plan A and then Plan B letter sounds very good. I did want to point out to you the thing that most people forget to include in their Plan B letter, and it’s one of the most important. You may have already picked this up from the sample letter but just in case…. It is very important that you include in the letter what you require of him to take him back… ending all contact, sending a no contact letter, agreement to work on the marriage. Otherwise a WS often thinks they can just more right back in and continue their affair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told him several times that I was hurt. He saw me cry my heart out... before he moved out. Since then he has not seen me cry and I've been pretending to be fine - actually I AM feeling good most of the time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is why the Plan A letter is a very good idea. You can let him know that right now your have accepting things as they are, but you are hurt beyond belief and want to rebuild your marriage. This will dispel any idea he may have that things are just ok with you.. that you don’t care about what he is doing.

Is it good or bad if he think I'm OK without him and 'moving on with my life'?
Sorry - I know I should know the answer but I'm having an off-day today... insecure about everything.
Again the Plan A letter and then the Plan B letter will let him know how you feel and what you want. It’s better in writing because the spoken word is often misheard or forgotten. This way he can read it over and over if he so chooses. It is also important for him to know that you will survive this. That if he wants you back he will have to make a move soon and give you some concessions. Remember that a person does not value that which is easily obtained. If you did not show some independence and instead moped around and lost yourself in this, he’d have less respect… he would most likely not even feel bad for what he has done.
From what I now of you through this forum, you are an incredible woman. He will be darn lucky if you will take him back after all he has done. And always remember that.
A 34 foot sailboat… sounds wonderful to me.
I don't really know if my independence will be attractive - I think one of his EN's is admiration.
There is a very large difference between independence and admiration.
When you are being independent, you are showing neither admiration nor lack of admiration for our husband. The independence is a statement about you. You are showing that you have self-respect and that you can stand on your own two feet. If instead you showed a lot of dependence you would be putting a lot of pressure on him to take responsibility for your happiness, your well-being etc. This sort of thing drives most people away.
Most men have a very large need for admiration. My husband does. I do too. Admiration is something that you express to your husband about him. It puts no pressure on him to take responsibility for you.
Admiration is one of the things that most spouses seem to stop showing to each other very early in relationships.. they start to take each other for granted. I’ll give you some examples of the way I let my husband know that I admire and appreciate him.
I always thank him for the things he does around the house, the income he brings home, etc. He does the same for me.
There are some things he does so much better than I do. For example he is an extraordinary writer and wordsmith. He is also very well educated. He is a better research source then the Internet. I don’t know how eh keeps it all in his brain and how he retrieves the info so fast when he needs it. (He says he only has one brain cell left – ha!). So when I have something to do that could really benefit from this talent of his, I always ask him to help me. Why wouldn’t I? Sure I could do it for myself but the result is always better when I involve him. Then when I have the wonderful results of our joint effort I tell him that I admire these things in him and thank him for his help.
Other things that I let him know I admire him for is that he is a good father, has a great sense of humor and a quick wit, he is very sweet and loving.
And I do not do this pretentiously. I love him. He is an extraordinary person. Why wouldn’t I want to let him know how I feel? We all need as much admiration and as many pats on the back as we can get.
I am also a very independent woman. I am a software engineer, we make about the same amount of money. He knows that I am quite capable of taking care of myself and my son. It’s just that I’d rather have him in my life.
Do you see the distinction between independence/dependence and admiration?

WH told me very little about his trip to Spain but one thing he pointed out was that everyone he met admired him b/c he speak 4 different languages - he liked that a lot.

I know that as the day of OW’s arrival approaches, this is getting harder for you. Please make sure that you have some one you can call for support. You know that we are here for you. But having someone close by is good too.

{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}

Hi Danish, How are things today?
I have been thinking of you often and hoping that you are holding up ok.I know that this is probably the hardest thing you have ever done in your life remember that many here are praying for you to help give you the strength that you will need to make it through the next few months.

My H and I started to read SAA together today (his idea not mine)and for the first time he opened up and talked to me.This brought out many trueths about his A that he never before told me it has been a very emotinal day for me.I did not do any LBs although I was tempted (i'm glad i read the book first so that i kind of know how to respond)but I did go into the bedroom to be alone and cry my eyes out.I guess today was the first day on the road to recovery.This is not going to be easy.

I wanted to let you know that I visited your web page it was very nice did you take the photo's and do the drawings?

Well I just wanted to let you know that you are always in my thoughts and prayers I wish there was more I could do for you but for now this will have to be enough.
You are very special! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Danish,

I'm just checking in to see how you are doing. Hoping that all is going well. My thoughts are with you.

Hi zorweb & Ginger <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Sorry for not getting back to you. We had a computer breakdown. Your support means the world to me!

>>> zorweb
I see the difference in admiration/independence as you explained it to me. I think I was a little confused and messed up when i wrote my last post. My english is not always good enough to explain the thoughts and emotions I'm experiencing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
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Where to begin?... WH came to the house at lunchtime thursday. WH and S had an appointment to run together - WH started that tradition when he came back from Spain. I had not prepared lunch for WH because I did not know he was coming that early (I knew... but he called S on his cell phone and told him he would be here earlier, so WH didn't know I knew). He bought us some McDonalds burgers and then drove off to borrow a trailer for his things.
Later a friend of his came to help him move his stuff. I know this guy very well and he gave me a big hug... he knows how sad I am.
Anyway, WH came back with the car 9.30 pm. The whole day I felt like he was mad at me?! He asked S if he would like to come and see his new apartment friday evening. S told him maybe.
When WH was leaving he gave me all his keys to the house & car without me asking for them. I felt so sad...

As he rushed out to go to his new home I said "wait a minute", "are you mad at me?". "No" he said "why would I be mad at you?". I don't know" I said "I feel I did something wrong, it feels like you are mad at me." Then he told me that he was not mad at me at all. "I just have to make a distance to you... I know you are feeling sad....". Then I handed him my Plan A letter and said that I wished he would read it when he came home.

Friday my brother called and asked if S and I would fancy a barbecue with his family. I asked S if he would like to go to dads place or my brothers... S said he'd love to go to my brothers family (they have 3 boys). I suggested that we visited dad before going to my brothers - just a short visit and S said "great idea" and asked if I would call dad and tell him. I called and WH seemed relieved that S wouldn't stay the whole evening.
We went - saw the apartment which was very nice but still a mess with boxes and stuff - I noticed that he had bought himself a new bed! - "one that don't make noises" he said <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> - we gave a bottle of wine and some candles to WH and left shortly after. I felt amazingly ok.
We had a nice evening in my brothers garden.

Saturday - today - OW day!!!!
WH called and asked if he could come and get some spoons and a few other things. I said it would suit me at 5 pm - he came, I gave him the things he asked for - he made an appointment with S for running/jogging (right word?) monday.
WH should pick OW up 7.30 this evening. Thoughts of the two of them in the new bed keeps spinning in my head.

That's about it.
Friday after the meeting I'll give him my Plan B letter.