i know how you feel as i am going thru the exact same thing. one week
since i found out and i too have wiped tears from my wife's eyes from
crying for the other man. Never thought i would be doing that !

my wife says that she was in love with him - and still loves me -
she has broken it off with him, and is terribly depressed. i understand
that she wil be in the state for awhile and cannot work on us until
she is out of it.

this makes it very hard for guys like us - we did not do anything to deserve
an affair. my goal now is to avoid all the love busters i can , so that if
we do not work out, i feel like i did everything in my power to make this
thing work. 20 years from now i can look my kid's in the eyes and say that
i did everything possible to make it work.

please stay strong and utilize all of us on the site for support- you will
need it along the way. in addition, i have started to keep a journal for
those rough times. later if you need to go over them with your therapist
you will have actual notes of all of the events.

good luck and may god help us both !!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by rookie:
Just a question,, how long am I to try plan A when there is no real attempt by the WS?.

Seems that since March when this whole thing started all I've been doing is spinning my wheels.

I just recently found this site and for approx. a week and a half have applied the principles, prior to that it was seeing my own therapist and she hers. We've been seeing a MC for approx. 3 weeks, she does not seem receptive at all.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan B should be implemented when the WS will not decide between the BS or the OP (fence sitting) AND the BS's love for the WS is rapidly approaching the point where divorce is becoming an attractive option. Are BOTH of those conditions present in your case?

You have no reason to plan B yet. Plan B is not based on how hard you wife is trying. Plan B is if your wife continues contact with OP.

You will have to plan a for a while. Currently your wife does not have feeling for you. She states that it is between her and you. That statement is true and not true. It started out as a problem between you and her but she is the one to decide to look elsewhere. She will need to take responsiblity for that part of the puzzle. She does not have feeling for you because she decided to develope those feeling for another person instead. She is feeling bad because that OP has been meeting some of her needs. Her feelings will come back for you after a while. (months). You will have to start dating again. You will feel like you are starting the relationship from scratch. (you are). Women cannot have feeling for two people at the same time. God did not create them like that. With a good plan A, those feeling for him will slowly pass away and will gradually come back for you. THIS TAKES TIME. 3 weeks is not much time.

I thing I do advise. You can take resposibility for the problems in the marriage but not the responsiblity for the A. She made that decision. My wife had an Affair with a neighbor. For 3 years my wife believed her A was my fault. For 3 years she keep falling back into the A. (2 more times) After 3 years, she meet with a lady counseler that finally told her that the A was not my fault but was a decision she made. She needed to take that responsibility. It now has been almost 3 years since that time and everything is great.

Guys, which to me is kind of funny since we are the ones always accused of having affairs, so far I see many more males on this site dealing with a cheating spouse than I do females(not to insult you ladies out there)

I was cruising through some of the other letters,
TooMuchCoffeMan posted this to floored 32, I printed it and am keeping it with me all time to remind me, it is as follows,

by Michele Weiner Davis's 180 degree list,

1. Don not pursue, reason, chase, beg. plead or implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in the marriage.
4. Do not follow her around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I love you"
12 Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Dont sit around waiting on your spouse, get busy, do things, go to church, ro out with friends, etc.
15. When home with you spouse (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking you spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had a awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold- just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and , and more important, realize what she will be missing.
19. No matter wjat you are feeling TODAY only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show her someone she will want to be around with.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold.
21. Dont be over enthusiastic.
22. Never loose you cool.
23. Do not argue about how she feels ( it only makes her feelings stronger)
24. Be patient.
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself ( exercise, sleep, laugh and focus on all the other parts of your life that is not in turmoil)
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softley.
29. Know that if you can do a 180, you smallest consistent actions will be noticed much more that anywords you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do NOT BELEIVE ANY OF WHAT YOU HEAR AND LESS THAN 50 PERCENT OOF WHAT YOU SEE, YOUR SPOUSE WILL SPEAK IN ABSOLUTE NEGATIVES BECAUSE SHE IS HURTING AND SCARED.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

She typos guys, I'm not great on the puter would have copied and pasted this,, but I felt it was important enought to type it out.

Funny thing is I just read this, this morning and started to apply it. I used to call and e-mail her all the time, today I called once as I had to get some things straight concerning the son's school and that was it... Well bout 15 minutes ago she calls and wants to know what I've been up to all day and how I'm doing, was short, polite and said I'll see ya tommorow(as we earlier made dinner plans, I might cancel)she sounded astounded that I did not say I love you and the likes,, and simply hung up the phone. This was actually my first laugh in a very, very long time....

Rookie if you want to read a true life story regarding the use and success of the 180 degrees list, read CarolKH's thread titled Hey CarolKH... can you elaborate on your story?. I think you are going to find it very inspirational.

Dear Rookie:

See if any of this rings a bell…

Since finding out about the affair (May 27, 3003) a great many things have happened to me. The first week was pure hell. Wanting to die, drinking a lot. Not wanting to see my wife but did not want to go on without her. Imagining the two of them together (That was the worst).

Then, I’ll never forget this, one week to the date, I was out in my back yard smoking a cigar, feeling sorry for myself, when all of the sudden a warm feeling came over me. I knew that from that point on I would be ok. It is from this point that I started to work on my marriage. I’ll tell you something; you have to ask yourself some fairly tough questions to get at the root cause of the marriage failure. Mine happened when we went to go see the marriage consular for the first time. After being there for only five minutes she asked me if I drink? I informed her that I did. She asked how often? I told her everyday, but only somewhere in the amount of 3-4 beers a day, then I would stop. She told me I had a drinking problem. I was set back, we were there because of her not me. It was at that point that I realized we both had problems. I took the counselor’s advice and went to an “AA” meeting. I did have a drinking problem. For me, drinking was not the problem, I just used it numb my feelings. I used it so much that I was not communicating with my wife. I was not enjoying all that life had to offer. I was not learning from my mistakes.

Now I know that I have to make myself happy before I can make others happy. The catch 22 is I am not happy if my wife is not in love with me, and she is not.

There is so much I want to write about but it’s late. But, I do want to end on asking you a question. Before you found out about the affair, was your wife starting to exercise a great deal more than she ever had in the past? Mine was, to look better for him.

Does it not seem ironic to anyone that we are the ones that were cheated on, yet we are the ones trying to save our marriages?

“All the lonely people, were do they all come from?”

The Beetles

Hey Coffeeman,

That was an awesome story of CarolKH. Loved it!!!

She still didn't mention the coach's name though did she. I think a coach's approach is just the greatest.

The 180 is very good also. If all the victims
of the "A's" would use those principles. It
is surprising how many marriages would be saved,
and even better than ever before.

Keep sharing that. I really wish I had a printer
right now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Sincerely, -Ladysheep

Davidnation, sounds like you and I are of the same cut of clothe, yep, wouldnt have but a beer or two during the week, but binged out on the weekends, I to have given up drinking, was strange, cause tonight I went out with friends to a bar, I'm drinking non-alcoholic and their doing beers.

My wife did not work out, but did go on a crash diet and slimmed down quite a bit.

If you know the OP is married, I'd give the wife a jingle on the phone, I did, it was a very interesting conversation, I simply told her that I believe she and I have a common problem, to which she really opened up(willingly) as she also had her suspicions.

Yep, you are more than correct in your statement that we are the ones that were cheated on, yet we seem to be the only ones attempting to save the marriage. Amazes me how 15 years togetther and our son take a second seat to the OP.

Rookie...I've been away from the board for several days, but did want to add just a little to the wonderful advice you've been getting here.

Some of the reasons that the WS clings so hard to the "idea" of the OP is their need to justify to themselves the path they took. It's really very difficult for them to finally step back and really look at what they had with the OP. Often when they do, they realize that it wasn't what they thought. They lied to themselves and those lies are the hardest ones we must admit.

You'll see it time and time again on the recovery board where the WS has had that ole iron skillet moment and finally accepts that their choice to betray was one of the worst choices they ever made in their lives.

In your situation, she's also dealing with the guilt that her actions helped break up another marriage. Not an easy load to carry. So of course, she wants to lie to herself that what happened was "good" on some level. She's caused you and your family pain, she's experiencing pain...she feels there must be a "good" reason for all this suffering...for if not...she must accept the fact of her lie (to self).

I do believe that your attempt to follow the 180 plus as good a plan A as you can will be beneficial to YOU. Remember...Plan A is about working on YOU and the good aspects of your life...it's not about being a doormat, but it is putting your focus on YOU and what you can do to improve yourself for yourself. Yes, you hope that your spouse will take note and will want to share in your new found enrichment...but Plan A is about YOU.

Plan B is to be attempted when your spouse is unwilling to end the affair, or else is unwilling to work on the marriage at all. It is the last thing you want to do as long as your spouse is trying...even if she isn't trying very hard. jmho It's also a very difficult plan to follow when you share a child...just no way you can completely cut contact.

Good Luck!

Well wife is staying at mom's house while they are outta town, kinda put a mini plan B in motion.

I havent called or stopped by except for the one call yesterday in regards to our sons's school. I did not end the conversation with the usual I love you, as I said yesterday she called to see if I was stopping by, as she said she might be out with her friend(my best friend's wife, so that part I know is true, cause I was out with him last night and they were together)I told her no I wouldnt be stopping by. I did not call her either.

This morning at 7:30 I get a call from her,, just wanting to know how things are going and if what time are we going to go out for dinner tonight. Bit my lip and said that it was up to her and that she should call when she finishes what she has to do.

Now this is from a woman who has'nt called to see how I was in a long time,,,,,,

She does return home Monday when her parents and my son are back in from out of town.

Really going to have to stick to the 34 point from Michele Weiner...

Wife just stopped by the house to see if her books(college)have arrived.

She was in the mood to start a arguement and accused me of not listening cause I was answering her question I guess to calmly as she accused me of speaking in a mono tone.

She stated that she did buy Hartley's book surviving a affair, but has not read the book yet.

She states that she wants a divorce, because she does not know how she is going to get her romantic feelings towards me back. I explained that once the OP is totally out of the picture, she might be able to gain some of those feelings back, should not have said that, but.. again she claims he has nothing to do with what is going on but it is between us.... OOOOOOKKKKKK, so she leaves in a huff.

While I was typing this, she calls, says she is sorry to say things that would hurt me, I advised her, that her best approach is to read the book she bought to understand her feelings, and why she cant feel romantic towards two people at the same time. She states that no book is going to help her get the feelings back. so the saga goes on.....

She is supposed to return shortly to do some work in the house, gonna have to maintain.
Rookie

I know that what I'm going to suggest to you may be considered by some here as playing games with her but sometimes games can help lift the fog of a WS sufficiently enough to plant the seed of what MAY happen if the BS decides to move on.

My suggestion is for you to follow the 180 degree suggestion to make yourself scarce when she is around. When she comes to the house, put on your best clothes as though you are going to go out on a date, and state to her that you have to go out. If she asks you where you are going, simply respond with the obvious ('Out') while smiling back at her and go visit friends or go watch a movie (if you can spend the night over at a male friends house, the better). Will it work? If you read CarolKH's story you'll remember that this very similar to one of the tactics she used to help lift the fog from her WH's mind. What do you have to loose? If it doesn't work then you've lost nothing, BUT if it works you may see her start to look at you with different eyes. Try it.

<small>[ June 21, 2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

I agree with coffee. I read Carol’s story last night, and as I due not agree with all of the tactics she used, I do agree with most of them. Go out Rookie. You will only revisit the hurtful feelings she brings upon you when she shows up and you are there. If you go out, at least you may be able to concentrate on something else. Just don’t DRINK!

After reading Carol’s story, I started to implement some of the 180 ideas. By George, they seem to be working. Wife today is starting to implement the conversation.

She is taking the kids away for three days to the Hamptons. She says she needs her space and time. I wanted to say take all the time and have all the space you want, I want a Divorce. But, I didn’t. It’s the kids. That’s why I’m staying. That’s why I’m trying. You see, my Mother has been married “3” times. The first two both cheated on her, and left. The current one is a security blanket for her. I promised myself long ago that that would never happen to me.

Funny how Life works.

Well, here it goes, she came back a little while later and started some work in the house, she was still hunting for a arguement, did avoid that one, but she did keep bringing up the statement I dont know if I'll ever feel romantic routine again.

I again advised her to read the book she bought, by Dr. Harley, surving affairs, says she has her college books to read, but if she didnt intend on reading the book, why did she buy it. I feel right now it's a mind game going on and her confusion is not any better. There were times today that she was crying and would hold me, other times just sat there with that far away stare.

We did go shopping and dinner and did spend most of the day together, did dinner and I kept it very light, at times the conversation was free and flowing and most of the time it was like talking to a wall, a one sided conversation.

One thing she did bring up is that since I retired 2 weeks ago and am on her insurance policy she will stay married to me IF IT DONT WORK, till I find a job that does cover me with insurance.

She left for her mother's home bout 5 minutes ago and we are supposed to attend a family funtion tommorow, the hard part is no one there knows what is going on and it is going to be hard to play the game that all is ok.... it's her family and I really dont want to say anything and line that group up against me at this time. Her mother did get both of our sides as to what is happening, but I dont want to bring extended family into this.

By the way she was acting today I firmly believe she told the OP to back off and she is in the mourning stage.

Rookie

My husband found out about my A (May 27, 03) and left immediately. (If you're interested in my story, read Husband, P.I., uncovers the ugly truth). I applaud you husbands who love your families enough to put up with the rejection and pain that your wives are causing now. My H would not tolerate this and removed himself from the situation. Since he left, I have felt more remorse, turmoil, confusion and guilt than I have ever felt in my life. The OM is still in the picture (living in another country) and contacts me daily. But I miss my H dearly now that he's gone. I can't say that I feel any passion for him (H) or feel that I could be back in love with him today, but I am more focused now on developing a better rapport with him with hopes of a possible reconcilliation in the future. Unfortunately, I am still straddling the fence with my feelings for both men, but I am on this site because I want to do the right thing and I hope to find the love I lost in my marriage before it is gone forever. My advice to all of the men out there whose wives have had an A: Continue on the 180 degree path. Most of us will see what we are missing if it isn't right under our nose and has the potential to be "taken" by another woman. If you remain confident and self-assured, she will take baby steps back in your direction. Trust me, it's what has brought me to find all of you and has helped me to finally realize that I have a marriage worth saving. Good luck to each of you and if you have any advice for me, I would welcome it completely. I am so afraid that my H will never forgive me after this awful thing I've done....

Very weird indeed, wife left for her mom's house to spend the night, 15 minutes later, returns, hugs me and says she does not want to be alone.

We watched a movie and she fell asleep in my bed.

Plan A, staying calm, staying positive for THE day worked, tommorow is another day, but, gotta stick to the plan.

Posting here has been a great way to vent,,,, will update frequently.
Rookie

CTc I am so sorry that your H left you after d-day but if there was any love left in his heart for you at the time of his departure, there is a very good chance that he will come back to you and agree to reconciliation. In the meantime every article on this website and the Harley books 'Surviving An Affair', 'Love Busters' and 'His Needs Her Needs' as well as Michelle Weiner Davis (the originator of the 180 degree list) books 'Divorce Busting', 'Divorce Remedy' and 'The Sex Starved Marriage'. BUT keep in mind that as long as you have contact with the OM, your marriage has a snow balls chance in hell of recovering, and if your H finds further evidence of this, your marriage may not survive.

Update, the wife was going to spend the time her parents were away at their home till they returned.

She spent the night last night, nothing happened cept watched a movie and such. This morning she went bacck to her parents and retrieved all her belongings and came back home.

I've avoided all conversation bout the A, and have concentrated on my actions and speach, try no withdrawals on the LB. HELP''''', any and all opinions are welcome at this point....

Sounds as if whatever you're doing, you're doing it right!~ So keep it up! It's much easier to work on your marriage if you're both under the same roof. jmho

Dear Rookie,

I feel amazed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> and happy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> for you.

Sounds like the fog is lifting for the most part.
Coming to her senses.

Blessings to your marriage!!!

Sincerely, -Ladysheep