It's Sunday night, she is still here,,, amazes me. We spent the day at a family outing, I was putting on my best game face and kept everything on the positive side, never mentioned A again today and acted as all was well, so far so good.

She still drifts off at times and I know what she is thinking, but,, she states she is not going to have contact with the OP (hard to do since they work to gether) other than work related. Once she breaks outta the fog, things should be easier, think that is gonna take a bit more time than I wish, but I'm willing to wait.

CTC, I also agree with Too Much Coffee Man, if you continure to have contact with the OP, the only person to blame for your M ending will be you. Sorry to say that, but if you want any movement from your H towards a reconciliation, dump the OP NOW and get over him.

rookie,

I can't believe how much this sounds like my situation!
My biggest problem is that the OM has been close friends with us both for about 5 years. She still calls him her best friend and says that she misses talking to him. The big problem is that they live next door!!
D-Day was March 8th while we were on our Cruise (With them). I was devastated, but I immediately knew that I was at fault as well as them.
I have asked her to end the A and I believe that for the most part that is over. (they never had sex, it was just an EA) But she still talks to him often. I tried to tell her that as long as she is still talking to him, it will be nearly impossible for us to gain any ground. I think I have her cinvinced to fill out the EN questionaire, but until she finishes it...
We are going to our second session tonite w/MC.
I am very worried because she has removed her wedding ring also. At first she told me she wasn't wearing it because she took it off for work and just hadn't put it back on, but I finally got her to admit that that wasn't the case. This hurt me deeply because I felt like she had given up. I still feel like that sometimes.
This sunday is our 12th ann. and I am scared to plan anything too special because I don't know how well received it will be. She has told me repeatedly that she doesn't want or need any affection or sex right now. And I have a very hard time with that because all I want to do when I am with her is hold her and kiss her and be affectionate. I don't necessarily want sex, just affection.
I tell her every chance I get how much she means to me, and I know that she knows it.
She has said that she will try, but she keeps trying to put a time limit on it. Saturday nite we went out for a drink and she told me that she wants to try for about a month and that if she still feels that same she will call it quits. I don't think that this is fair. I feel like that is a very pessimistic approach. But she says that she is tired of feeling trapped in the relationship.

I don't know where to turn for the strength to go on, God hasn't answered me yet, and I am getting very antsy!

r0uter

Great thread, been watching it for a while and thought I could jump in.

My wife is in the same boat, an A with a man in another country. Found out in late March, been plan Aing since then. Please read any of my other posts for the details.

I really thought we were making progress, she was showing affection, missing me, wanting to spend time w/ me etc. etc. all while saying she was not having any contact with OM.

Recently I found emails and messages that proved otherwise. I struglled about what to do about this and last night we had a talk where I disclosed the truth. Surprisingly she didnt get mad at me, just embarassed and frustrated. She says she is a compulsive liar and cannot be trusted and I should never trust her - that really gave me a lot of confidence in our marriage!

I think I'm at the end now, I really dont know what more I can do. I continue to pray for guidance but I really dont see anyway a marriage can be rebuilt with 0 trust, 0 committment and the OM in the picture.

rOuter, here I am in the same position as you and at times, just as confused.

My suggestion at this point is to read all you can on this site and read Dr. Harley's books surviving a affair and Love busters.

Second get yourself to a doctor and advise him of your depression, he will speak to you for only a few moments asking you general questions as to how you feel, changes in sleeping habits, weight loss and loss of self esteem, I can tell you right now that we are in the same boat, and he will give you a prescription for anti depressants.
Take your pride away if that is stopping you and do this, you'd be amazed at how uch clearer you can focus on the issues at hand rationally rather than emotionally, there is a major differance once you do this.

Third, read Michelle Weiners list of things to do and dont do which I posted earlier, print this out and read it daily as a reminder. It helps you stay focused and not to do some stupid things which I've done, the list helps immensely.

My wife also took off her wedding ring at one point, I explained how this also hurt me, thought about it and then took mine off also, when she saw that she flipped. We are both wearing our rings once again.

As far as the sex, I was told the line, I love you but not in love with you and dont feel any passion. The last two days after following the list for about a week, there were some VERY passionate kisses, I feel foolish saying this, but last night when we went to bed, I started foreplay, she obviously was satisfied, then sat up and said I thought we were not going to do this, I'm not ready, and that she was going to sleep in another room, I was extremely frustrated at this point(been cut off for over a month now) and stayed calm, explaining that it was very rough for both of us, I would make no further attempts till she was ready and apologized for trying. It is very hard at times to keep calm, but remember you have to.

Marriage counseling, we've been to several sessions together, but she no longer wants to go as she was seeing her own therapist for awhile and now feels that she is all talked out and no longer wants to rehash all the details of her life.

My wife also states that she wants to try, but not for a extended period of time. But now she is also talking that she wants to buy a differant house, I'm very reluctant to do so at this point, but I do look with her as it gives us something to talk about and show a common interest in that is not a strained enviorment.

The OP, right now she is at work, he is there, she says that she told him it's off, ever since she has done this I have dealt with the distant stares and non cummunication at times knowing damn well what she is thinking about, yep, hurts like hell, but STAY CALM, I dont engage her when she is hunting for a arguement and avoid all conversations at this point about the affair, my wife also claims it was only emotional and there was never any sex involved, but ya always wonder.

Good luck, keep in touch WE NEED THE SUPPORT OF EACH OTHER AT TIMES LIKE THIS, IT IS WHAT KEEPS YOU GOING.

rOuter, here I am in the same position as you and at times, just as confused.

My suggestion at this point is to read all you can on this site and read Dr. Harley's books surviving a affair and Love busters.

Second get yourself to a doctor and advise him of your depression, he will speak to you for only a few moments asking you general questions as to how you feel, changes in sleeping habits, weight loss and loss of self esteem, I can tell you right now that we are in the same boat, and he will give you a prescription for anti depressants.
Take your pride away if that is stopping you and do this, you'd be amazed at how uch clearer you can focus on the issues at hand rationally rather than emotionally, there is a major differance once you do this.

Third, read Michelle Weiners list of things to do and dont do which I posted earlier, print this out and read it daily as a reminder. It helps you stay focused and not to do some stupid things which I've done, the list helps immensely.

My wife also took off her wedding ring at one point, I explained how this also hurt me, thought about it and then took mine off also, when she saw that she flipped. We are both wearing our rings once again.

As far as the sex, I was told the line, I love you but not in love with you and dont feel any passion. The last two days after following the list for about a week, there were some VERY passionate kisses, I feel foolish saying this, but last night when we went to bed, I started foreplay, she obviously was satisfied, then sat up and said I thought we were not going to do this, I'm not ready, and that she was going to sleep in another room, I was extremely frustrated at this point(been cut off for over a month now) and stayed calm, explaining that it was very rough for both of us, I would make no further attempts till she was ready and apologized for trying. It is very hard at times to keep calm, but remember you have to.

Marriage counseling, we've been to several sessions together, but she no longer wants to go as she was seeing her own therapist for awhile and now feels that she is all talked out and no longer wants to rehash all the details of her life.

My wife also states that she wants to try, but not for a extended period of time. But now she is also talking that she wants to buy a differant house, I'm very reluctant to do so at this point, but I do look with her as it gives us something to talk about and show a common interest in that is not a strained enviorment.

The OP, right now she is at work, he is there, she says that she told him it's off, ever since she has done this I have dealt with the distant stares and non cummunication at times knowing damn well what she is thinking about, yep, hurts like hell, but STAY CALM, I dont engage her when she is hunting for a arguement and avoid all conversations at this point about the affair, my wife also claims it was only emotional and there was never any sex involved, but ya always wonder.

Good luck, keep in touch WE NEED THE SUPPORT OF EACH OTHER AT TIMES LIKE THIS, IT IS WHAT KEEPS YOU GOING.

rookie,

Glad to have someone to communicate with in a similar situation.

you said: "I feel foolish saying this, but last night when we went to bed, I started foreplay, she obviously was satisfied, then sat up and said I thought we were not going to do this, I'm not ready, and that she was going to sleep in another room, I was extremely frustrated at this point(been cut off for over a month now) and stayed calm, explaining that it was very rough for both of us, I would make no further attempts till she was ready and apologized for trying. It is very hard at times to keep calm, but remember you have to."
Don't feel too foolish, we have had this same conversation!! It is very frustrating. She says she feels it is wrong to have sex when she doesn't feel attracted to me emotionally. I think hearing that is harder than going "without".
I had thought about taking my ring off too, but it just seems to go against my morals. I guess I still feel like if I am married I should wear it, no matter what. I am scared that this would be the fuel that she would use to just say we are finished. I feel like I am constantly walking on rice paper.
Very confused about why it is us who are trying to fix the marriage!? although I DO accept my responsiblity for what started us moving apart. It seems like with our busy lives we just forgot how to take time for us, and how to talk to each other. One of the points brought out in couseling was that we used to have fun together, and she feels like we don't have that anymore. It is hard with jobs, kids, house, all of the responsibility things you know?!
I would love to find a recreation that we could enjoy together again, but the counselor recommends that we wait until communication gets better.

Still confused,
r0uter

But wait... there's more...

One of the things that I have a hard time with is my reactions to things that I don't like, even though I know that they are fair and just. My wife has recently become very independent and likes to go out with her friends after work. When she calls to tell me she is going out, my first reaction is disappointment because I feel like I am getting cheated out of time that I had planned to spend with her. unfortunately, this is what she hears in my voice when I say ok, go. She is not asking permission, just informing me that she is going, but she gets pissed off because I "give her the heavy sigh" indicating my displeasure. What I am thinking at this point is that she deserves to go and should go. But, that is not what she hears. She wants me to be like her and say "Go, have fun! You deserve it!!" and be all happy and chipper about it. But that is not my way, even when I can contain my initial reaction.

The other funny thing is that I can implement Plan B very easily because my job allows me to go out of town almost at will. I could easily ask to be away for as long as I needed to be. My conflict with this is that I feel obligated to my children to be there for them, and I am afraid because of the way she talks that I would go away and she would find out that she doesn't need me and that I should stay gone! this is the last thing I want right now!!!

r0uter

rOuter, Please, please read the list by Michelle Weiner, right now your on cruise control and just responding by your emotions, not good, as all have informed me here, it just pushes her to the OP.

ABSOLUTLEY get the meds, helps on the emotional level, I was a police sergeant for 28 years, I've dealt with many other peoples problems and had to pack it away as luggage, worked rotating shifts, so you can see how my wife started to get her independence, working midnights and 3-11 shifts does put a extreme damper on time spent to gether, throw in the mix of alot of stressful situations at work and I was not the most open person, that is the way us macho guys deal with it. That is over, I quit the job as it was WAY too much.

You are going to have to gamble on some things and the list is a very good starting point, please read all you can. I havent opened the door to my marriage yet, but at least I see some progress. You need to start focusing on YOURSELF.

When the wife has a affair, emotional or physical to me that is the biggest slap in the face one can have. It is extremely selfish and self centered to deal with the problems in one's marriage that way. As you have said, we are the ones trying to fix the problem, they really are confused at this point and are sitting on the fence. Which way they go is pretty much up to them but we are a great influence. If we make their lives miserable by asking about the affair at this point while the iron is still hot, it's a no brainer, we will be accused of making their lives miserable and they will go to the only one that understands, the OP. Life is cruel, I also took my vows of marriage seriously and NEVER played around, not that I didnt appreiate looking at a beautiful woman, but the thought of advancing was never there.

Please keep posting and keep in touch

rOuter, Please, please read the list by Michelle Weiner, right now your on cruise control and just responding by your emotions, not good, as all have informed me here, it just pushes her to the OP.

ABSOLUTLEY get the meds, helps on the emotional level, I was a police sergeant for 28 years, I've dealt with many other peoples problems and had to pack it away as luggage, worked rotating shifts, so you can see how my wife started to get her independence, working midnights and 3-11 shifts does put a extreme damper on time spent to gether, throw in the mix of alot of stressful situations at work and I was not the most open person, that is the way us macho guys deal with it. That is over, I quit the job as it was WAY too much.

You are going to have to gamble on some things and the list is a very good starting point, please read all you can. I havent opened the door to my marriage yet, but at least I see some progress. You need to start focusing on YOURSELF.

When the wife has a affair, emotional or physical to me that is the biggest slap in the face one can have. It is extremely selfish and self centered to deal with the problems in one's marriage that way. As you have said, we are the ones trying to fix the problem, they really are confused at this point and are sitting on the fence. Which way they go is pretty much up to them but we are a great influence. If we make their lives miserable by asking about the affair at this point while the iron is still hot, it's a no brainer, we will be accused of making their lives miserable and they will go to the only one that understands, the OP. Life is cruel, I also took my vows of marriage seriously and NEVER played around, not that I didnt appreiate looking at a beautiful woman, but the thought of advancing was never there.

Please keep posting and keep in touch

rOuter, Please, please read the list by Michelle Weiner, right now your on cruise control and just responding by your emotions, not good, as all have informed me here, it just pushes her to the OP.

ABSOLUTLEY get the meds, helps on the emotional level, I was a police sergeant for 28 years, I've dealt with many other peoples problems and had to pack it away as luggage, worked rotating shifts, so you can see how my wife started to get her independence, working midnights and 3-11 shifts does put a extreme damper on time spent to gether, throw in the mix of alot of stressful situations at work and I was not the most open person, that is the way us macho guys deal with it. That is over, I quit the job as it was WAY too much.

You are going to have to gamble on some things and the list is a very good starting point, please read all you can. I havent opened the door to my marriage yet, but at least I see some progress. You need to start focusing on YOURSELF.

When the wife has a affair, emotional or physical to me that is the biggest slap in the face one can have. It is extremely selfish and self centered to deal with the problems in one's marriage that way. As you have said, we are the ones trying to fix the problem, they really are confused at this point and are sitting on the fence. Which way they go is pretty much up to them but we are a great influence. If we make their lives miserable by asking about the affair at this point while the iron is still hot, it's a no brainer, we will be accused of making their lives miserable and they will go to the only one that understands, the OP. Life is cruel, I also took my vows of marriage seriously and NEVER played around, not that I didnt appreiate looking at a beautiful woman, but the thought of advancing was never there.

Please keep posting and keep in touch

rookie,
Let me start by saying thanks for the quick responses.
I read the list as you typed them earlier. Then I read them again! I really don't know if I have the strength to go through with that. Maybe I do need the AD's?!
The list is just about exactly 180 degrees out from what I am doing now. Although I have always been able to be calm. I have never, in all of the 15 years we have been together, lost my temper with her.
I love to tell her "I love you", and I enjoy doing things for her.
I could do some of these things, but if I can't do all of them it won't be effective, right?
I just keep thinking of the kids...

r0uter

rOuter your worst enemy is your fear of losing your W, for it WILL sabotage all your hard earned Plan A efforts. When a BS emotionally accepts the possibility that his/her M may not survive, s/he attains the serenity necessary to weather practically any way the marriage can go (recovery or divorce).

Something else to keep in mind is that she does not appreciate how hard life is going to be for her as a single mom. The daily parental duties of a custodial parent are NOT easy (I should know, I was one for almost 3 years prior to getting remarried) and they will dramatically cut into her going out with friends out to a club to dance and to have a few drinks after work.

Lastly, the vast majority of OM's due NOT want to have to deal with a WW's kids. Some of them do try but they find out that the kids have NO respect for them and this takes its toll on the relationship with the WW. When this happens, it is usually the OM the one that ends the A with the WW.

Your WW acts the way she does because she's in the fog and does not appreciate the great upheaval a divorce will cause in her personal life. That's why it's important for the BS to follow Plan A (avoid all love busters such as angry outbursts, selfish demands and disrespectful judgements; meet as many emotional needs the WS allows; informing the world of her A) AND Michelle Weiner Davis's 180 degree list at the same time. The combination of the two is very powerful and causes severe damage to an A.

You may be surprised at what can happen if you conquer your fear of losing your WW and follow the Plan A/180 degree list combo.

r0uter -

You're getting some great advise here, the same which I have been following for the 3+ months since I found out about the A. The bad thing for me is it looks like thigns are not working out and probably will not change. But due to Plan A and staying in control. My self esteem is high, I'm confident & not scared, and I can truly say to myself and God that I gave it the best chance I possibly can.

Now it isn't over yet so who knows but we shall see what happens.

rOuter (and you to rookie) consider that IF your WW ever tells you that she wants a divorce, you respond by looking her straight in her eyes and quietly and calmly telling her 'If that is what you want, then go right ahead and divorce me' and turn around and leave her alone. By responding in this way, you are demonstrating to her that you are NOT afraid of divorce (calling her bluff) AND that it SHE who will be the one that ends the M. She'll be shocked and it make take a few 'If that's what you want's' (especially if she's successfully used the threat before to get her way) but she will eventually realize that threating you achieves absolutely nothing for her.

<small>[ June 23, 2003, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

TOOMuchCoffeeMan,

I realize that some of what I am saying is just making excuses , but...

I have already promised her that I would not talk to anyone about our problems that doesn't already know. (and plenty do, including her whole family)
I hate breaking promises. We live in a small town and everyone in town knows our family, I really don't want everyone in town to know about this.
I know that I need to accept the fact that the M could go either way, but man is that scary! Especially when I tend to be an optimist and think that if I keep things positive it will work out that way.
I want to do what it takes and I have told her that. But I think that we are both confused about where to begin.

r0uter

TOOMuchCoffeeMan,

Funny you should mention that about standing up to her that way... I know that she often says things that she doesn't mean, and than waits for me to do what she wants. (Just call me a puppet).
I have often considered telling her that I am going to give her what she wants and just walk away. I know that she thinks that D is going to be easy, she thinks that her parents will be there to help take care of the kids, and she knows that I will not let the kids suffer for this. I also know that she was expecting me to walk out and tell her and him to F*** off and have nice life together. But that's just not possible.
As I mentioned before, the OM lives next door and has been very close to us for about 4 years. The kids all like him very much and he is especially fond of my 2 y/o twins (Who wouldn't be, they are beautiful!!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) The twins call him "Uncle ****"
I think that hurts me too, that I was so blind to the whole thing, and I let this man into my family and trusted him with literally EVERYTHING!!
I have nothing but disdain for him right now, and would sooner shoot him than look at him. (don't worry, I don't own a gun).

r0uter

rOuter, dont know how I posted the last message 3 times, but????

Hey, if you think you might need the AD's, I'd make a bet you most absolutley do.

TooMuchCoffeeMan is correct in mixxing the plan A and the 180 list, made a big differance here. From her leaving the house to returning two days later when I started acting like I cared, but could go on, stopping the I love you and such, and yes TMC, she did lay the statement, I came back, but there is still the possibility that it wont work and we'll get divorced, my response, I want it to work, but, if that is what you want to make you happy, there is nothing I can do to stop you.

Not much talk lateley of divorce, but there is still some comments.

rOuter, please,,, for your own self, start the 180,at least you feel like you have a minimal control over your life at this time instead of getting punched in the head on a daily basis and sit there asking for more.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by r0uter:
<strong>TOOMuchCoffeeMan,

Funny you should mention that about standing up to her that way... I know that she often says things that she doesn't mean, and than waits for me to do what she wants. (Just call me a puppet).
I have often considered telling her that I am going to give her what she wants and just walk away. I know that she thinks that D is going to be easy, she thinks that her parents will be there to help take care of the kids, and she knows that I will not let the kids suffer for this. I also know that she was expecting me to walk out and tell her and him to F*** off and have nice life together. But that's just not possible.
As I mentioned before, the OM lives next door and has been very close to us for about 4 years. The kids all like him very much and he is especially fond of my 2 y/o twins (Who wouldn't be, they are beautiful!!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) The twins call him "Uncle ****"
I think that hurts me too, that I was so blind to the whole thing, and I let this man into my family and trusted him with literally EVERYTHING!!
I have nothing but disdain for him right now, and would sooner shoot him than look at him. (don't worry, I don't own a gun).

r0uter</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah but you see that BOTH your WW and the OM still do NOT want to open their eyes to the reality of day to day living with each other. Sure your kids get along fine with him and his kids because they are unaware of the situation, but can you honestly say this is going to be the case once they find out the truth and they are forced to share a roof with him 24/7? What about OM's twins, how are they going to feel about your WW when they have to share space with her? How long do you think the magic of their illicit relationship is going to last under those circumstances?

So, If I apply the 180 list, do I stop all affections too? I enjoy giving her a little kiss when we see each other, I enjoy holding her hand while we sit and watch TV (When we get the chance). I enjoy giving her a kiss and saying good night. Do I have to give up all of this too?

I am going out of town for three days and I plan to only stay in touch minimally. I know that her reaction will be to get angry with me and ask me what is wrong. She will assume that since I am not talking to her that there is something bothering me. And even if I tell her that everything is fine, she won't beleive it.

r0uter