People!

YIKES! All the negative talk about KB's W isn't fair. Sorry, that's how I feel. We aren't hearing a peep from her, and even though KB is doing a good job of showing in his posts that she's human, we still all have the tendency 2 side with the BS in si2ations like this.

I'm going 2 give his W the benifit of the doubt here, of which there is plenty.

What KB has posted about her behavior since D-day shows me that she feels plenty bad about what she did. If she didn't love him, she'd have left him by now. It's hard work dealing with a hurting BS after discovering the A. It's easier 2 get away at this time. Don't overlook the significance of it.

Having said that, there's obviously a lot of work for them both 2 do if they want 2 recover their M. And I believe they both do.

By far the best place 2 start is on the homepage with the articles about infidelity. If she's interested in reading them with KB, then that's a helluva lot more "cooperation" than most of us get, so don't overlook the significance of that. If she's willing 2 go 2 counseling, either MC, IC or both, by no means overlook the significance of that.

KB, you're hurting right now. A lot. It will be hard, but focus your attention away from the A and the OM and on2 your interactions with your W. Read all about NOT love-busting and work HARD on following the guidelines about getting a good plan A going.

And people. People! This is far from an unrecoverable si2ation! You all know this!

All my best regards 2 you and your family, KB
-ol' 2long

KB

I feel so so horrible about your situation. That's gotta be the worst way to discover an affair and your wife is acting very callous about it. If you truly had a very attentive and sexually active marriage...the envy of many...then perhaps your wife has gotten into some very selfish and self-centered neediness that caused her to seek out that "excitement".

How old is she? My WW was 40 when she started to feel as though she was no longer attractive and part of her mentality was that the flattery of the attention that she was getting from someone other than me was exciting. Just a thought.

By the way, I recognize BRYANP from another Infidelity Posting Site and he is usually very angry and bitter with blunt, cold advice that is most of the time not advice on the healing path for those truly interested in recovery and saving their marriages.

Anyway, now that your "fantasy marriage" has been shattered, does it make you think about whether or not this is the one and only affair that she has ever had, or is it the one and only one that she got caught at? Makes you wonder.....

Oh, and it is an absolute must that the OM's wife needs to be informed and deserves to know, no matter the consequences to your W's job, etc. You have set yourself up to carry the entire burden of guilt, shame, anger and hurt and you shouldn't. There are four people involved. Only 3 know about it and only 1 is really suffering from it, YOU. Full Disclosure is a must.

Be prepared...you are about to move from being Mr Nice Guy to S.O.B. in the eyes of your WW and the OM. If you help them keep their secret it will not help you at all nor your marriage nor the OM's marriage. Let the light of truth shine through!

God Bless and Good Luck.

<small>[ July 09, 2003, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: Blind Sided ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by doofus:
<strong>Jimmy Mac -

I TOTALLY disagree with you. Most affairs have NOTHING to do with the BS, and EVERYTHING to do with the WS's own perceived needs/problems, etc.

.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Rather egocentric, isn't it? Under this rationale, BS has no control over whether an A happens. BS is just a helpless observer, tossed about on the waves of doubt while WS resolves his needs/problems. Thus, we should simply tell all BS to, "Shut up and wait. When the A is over, WS will tell you."

I had an A because I wasn't getting what I needed out of the M. Was it my fault for not communicating clearly to my W? Was it her fault for not listening to me? Who knows? Who cares? In the end, it doesn't matter. You can play the blame game forever.

The question is ultimately, "Can both of us get our LEGITIMATE needs fulfilled by the MARRIAGE?" (Note the emphasis on LEGITIMATE--childish or impossible needs don't count.)

If the answer is "NO," then the M isn't working and there is no point continuing with the M.

For me to save my marriage, I had to learn to communicate better. My S had to learn to listen better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
I'm sorry, but your whole attitude irritates me. ... If only my spouse had been _______, then I wouldn't have had to commit adultery."
.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If my spouse and I had been better at talking and listening to each other, the A would not have happened--or it would have ended much, much earlier.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
My problems are mine alone; I take full responsibility for them.
.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me too. But I thank God I've got my wife around to help me with them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
Nothing my wife did or didn't do could ever justify me having sex with prostitutes.
.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do I think a person can drive his/her S into an A? Yes. Did it happen to me? No.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
I get a real bad feeling that you are justifying your adultery because of who you married, or something she did. That's not a particularly mature attitude.
.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I deeply regret what happened. I wish I could go back and erase it. I can't. Had I been a better communicator and had I been better at identifying my wants and needs to my BS, the A wouldn't have happened.

Would I have had an A no matter who I married? Probably. I had some problems I needed to work on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
If there are problems in a marriage, how the h*ll is having an affair going to help?
.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It won't.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
If you believe that having sex with someone other than your spouse IN YOUR OWN BED is just a ploy for attention, and that the BS should consider himself/herself suitably chastised for failing to notice problems in the marriage when this occurs, then by all means post here. I'm a WS myself, and just think this is nonsense.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He wanted to know why his wife wasn't apologizing. IMHO, she isn't guilt ridden because she is harboring some very deep anger. She is thinking something along the lines of "You got what you deserved."

I'm not condoning. I'm explaining.

Do I think what she did was appropriate? No. Do I think she was justified? No. Is there another side of this story? Most certainly.

Jimmy Mac:

This is wisdom: "I had an A because I wasn't getting what I needed out of the M. Was it my fault for not communicating clearly to my W? Was it her fault for not listening to me? Who knows? Who cares? In the end, it doesn't matter. You can play the blame game forever."

It's been 18 months since D-day for me. Why have I gone on this long? Because I kept resisting, insisting on NC, blaming, rehashing the past. Playing that s2pid blame game forever.

Only now do I truly feel like I've been able 2 let go of the resentment. And just now, not coincidentally, major positive things are happening in our R.

For each of us, this learning experience takes different lengths of time. For ol' 2long, it's taken 2long for most people. For KB, it'll be something else. But until he can get past the resentment and truly work 2ward a fu2re without it, what he (or any of us) resist(s), most assuredly will persist.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> 2long

<small>[ July 10, 2003, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jimmy Mac:
<strong>Rather egocentric, isn't it? Under this rationale, BS has no control over whether an A happens. BS is just a helpless observer, tossed about on the waves of doubt while WS resolves his needs/problems. Thus, we should simply tell all BS to, "Shut up and wait. When the A is over, WS will tell you."
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are always reasons why the affairs start. But it's incorrect to say that the reasons will absolutely lead up to the affair. The WS always has the choice not to have an affair no matter what the reasons that lead up to it.

Say for example that when you got married, you were implanted with a device which would instantly kill you if you had an affair. Would you still have had your affair knowing that it meant certain death? Or would you have investigated other solutions?

Certainly the reasons can help you understand why the affair starts, but it doesn't give it justification. It doesn't make it right to have an affair even if you had very good reasons for it. An affair is always wrong no matter the reasons which led up to it.

JM your view of what a marriage should be is F***ed up. All marriages go through ups and downs just because you were going through a down time in your marriage it did not give you the right to go and have an affair. A person with moral character would of sat down with the spouse and talked about what is going on in the marriage. 50% of marriages end up in divorse because of people like you.

Carl

Folk Units:

I think people have As for all kinds of reasons.

I think people blame for all kinds of reasons.

I think people resent for all kinds of reasons.

I think that people can't forgive for all kinds of reasons (not the least of which is that very few people truly know what forgiveness IS).

I think that people post for all kinds of reasons (not all of them noble, either).

I only "know" what happened in my own sitch, and how best 2 deal with it and get my M back 2gether. ...but even that's not true. If I "knew" what was wrong, I wouldn't be still trying 2 get recovery going 18 months after D-day. More importantly, if I "knew" what I've learned in the past 18 months 12 years ago when this all started, it wouldn't have started.

The way I figure it (and I'm getting better at "figuring", 2!), is that my W and I are each ~50% responsible for the condition of our M when her A started. I'm not responsible for her choice 2 have an A, but I AM responsible enough for my behaviors that lead 2 her justifying having it. But the levels of responsibility whoever has for the A itself is of no importance whatsoever 2 rebuilding the M. None!

Now, this will probably start something of a flame war, and I apologize if it does (but there's already one going on here at KB's expense, un42nately). I hope it doesn't, truthfully, because KB's got a real problem here that's not being addressed.

He can only work on his own personal issues. His W's are her responsibility. It can be useful 2 work with her, of course, 2 help him identify his shortcomings, but if she doesn't want his help with hers, that's her right (though she'll have 2 accept one possible consequence of that choice, DV).

The biggest stumbling block 2 my recovery was the resentment. Without being able 2 let go of the resentment, I couldn't possibly truly forgive (or be forgiven). Life in general gets really cool when you get 2 the point where you have let go of resentment and can forgive. Really cool.

Go there.
-2long

O.K jimmymac it was not a perfect marriage. We have problems like everyone. She has admittedly low self esteem. We have money problems. I don't help her enough with the bills and I have/ had an internet porn problem. It did hurt her deeply and maybe she's right to feel I deserved it. I don't think the two ( affair/ porn) are as close to one another as she does. I have an addictive gene in my family, My mom's whole family are alcoholics or pot heads or pill poppers. My addictions are chewing tobacco and internet porn. She said that was not the cause of the A but maybe made it easier. So there I deserved it. Is the pain the same between an inanimate picture and a human being touching and pleasuring your wife. Also with emotional attatchment. I doubt that she has ever made love to me and wondered if I was thinking about how that picture made me feel or wish She would do something like that picture did to me. I doubt she ever questioned whether I would rather be in front of the computer instead of with her. By the way I brought up the internet thing in our discussions obout the A, she did not. She also said that she has been emotionaly abused over the past three weeks because I have had so much anger and I keep "shooting arrows at her". Ok job well done the guilt has officially landed on me along with everything else. She also gets very angry anytime I mention the consequences. She does not have to reminded every two minutes of the consequences of what she has done. Sorry so long but I came here for help and I wanted to be brutally honest. She hates the fact that when she comes home she does not know what mood I will be in. haapy, crying, or angry and "emotionally abusive". I simply told her that was a consq. I am hurt deeply and am on an emotional roller coaster. There too long a post but I feel better.

For those that doubt most experts will tell you both parties contribute to the conditions or environment that an affair can happen. So there is some mutual blame for the "conditions".

But they will also tell you that the wayward spouse is 100% to blame for the "choice" to have an affair.

So in defense of K's wife there is a need to identify not only why she made the very poor choice BUT also what conditions existed to allow her to make such a choice.

It was still her choice but why did conditions exist that led to the choice. Now sometimes the conditions are internal for the wayward spouse like mental illness, substance abuse or past physical and/or sexual abuse.

But even those scenarios there are still condtions like lack of accountability that allowed the affair to happen once the wayward spouse made the poor choice.

NO EXCUSING HER CHOICE but it is important to understand WHY/HOW she came to make this choice.

KB:

Now we're getting somewhere we can help you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

"I don't think the two ( affair/ porn) are as close to one another as she does."

Recognize, though, that HER perception is what's important here, because you are trying 2 figure out why she did what she did. It's different from yours, not right or wrong.

"I have an addictive gene in my family, My mom's whole family are alcoholics or pot heads or pill poppers. My addictions are chewing tobacco and internet porn."

Instead of making excuses, how about doing something about these? The porn, at least, clearly bothers her.

"She said that was not the cause of the A but maybe made it easier."

I bet it was one of the reasons or "justifications" as "cause" is harder 2 connect in this case.

"So there I deserved it. Is the pain the same between an inanimate picture and a human being touching and pleasuring your wife."

It could be. Again, you're speculating about her feelings here, judging them, and then labeling them as wrong. Try understanding them instead.

"Also with emotional attatchment."

Yes, this is how YOU feel. It hurts 2 be "replaced" by an A partner. But I'm betting that she felt a lot of emotional pain from your porn habit.

"I doubt that she has ever made love to me and wondered if I was thinking about how that picture made me feel or wish She would do something like that picture did to me."

Well, though it's not appropriate for me 2 do so, I'd bet large sums of cash that she IS thinking about how you feel about the porn. "Don't I satisfy you?" comes 2 mind (and has been said in similar cases on this 4um).

"I doubt she ever questioned whether I would rather be in front of the computer instead of with her."

I don't doubt this for a minute. When you ARE in front of the computer, you're not likely with HER at that moment, are you? And when you are, are you secretive about it? Or do you surf in front of her?

"By the way I brought up the internet thing in our discussions obout the A, she did not."

Fair enough. But it seems that it is an issue with her. What things did she bring up?

"She also said that she has been emotionaly abused over the past three weeks because I have had so much anger and I keep "shooting arrows at her"."

Greg Baer (author of "The Truth About Relationships"), says that anger is always inappropriate. It's an attacking behavior (and thus is a self-protection mechanism because it puts the other party on the defensive). He says "remember that when you get angry, you are wrong." I don't quite agree with that extreme view, but my W and I both agree that anger is counterproductive at best. Stop shooting arrows?

"Ok job well done the guilt has officially landed on me along with everything else."

Do what I did. At one point, oh about 8 months ago, when we were having one of these "blame-fests", I said "Tell you what. I'll take full responsibility for everything wrong with our relationship, and give you full credit for everything good about it. Does that help?" And you know what? She came 2 MY defense! The point isn't taking or placing blame. The point is 2 stop it al2gether. Right now and forever.

"She also gets very angry anytime I mention the consequences. She does not have to reminded every two minutes of the consequences of what she has done."

So stop reminding her. It won't do any good. She has 2 face these on her own, and she WON'T do it if you're insisting that she do.

"Sorry so long but I came here for help and I wanted to be brutally honest. She hates the fact that when she comes home she does not know what mood I will be in. haapy, crying, or angry and "emotionally abusive". I simply told her that was a consq. I am hurt deeply and am on an emotional roller coaster. There too long a post but I feel better. "

GOOD! YOu have every right, indeed responsibility, 2 tell her how YOU feel. It is useful, though, 2 be more loving than antagonistic while you do this, though (no "love-busting"). This is not 2 say that you aren't "justified" in being hurt. You are. But ask yourself that age-old question: "Do I want 2 be right, or do I want 2 be married?" If you insist on being right NOW, when she's not in a position 2 be logical, you will lose your M. If you want 2 be married, first and foremost, you'll have 2 set aside the need 2 be right for a while, 2 give her the time she may need 2 get on the same page with you, so that recovery can begin.

-2long

Read this several times:

Understanding what she says does NOT mean
(a)she is right or (b) you agree with her. It means that you hear her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KB96:
<strong> It did hurt her deeply and maybe she's right to feel I deserved it.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You didn't deserve it. She was wrong. There are better ways to resolve problems in an M than having an affair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
Is the pain the same between an inanimate picture and a human being touching and pleasuring your wife. Also with emotional attatchment.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear you. But, many women are very distressed if there husband looks at porn. Women have been known to divorce husbands who didn't give up porn.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
Ok job well done the guilt has officially landed on me along with everything else.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, it hasn't. Of course she is going to try to blame you--her whole life has been put into a blender. It doesn't mean she is right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
She also gets very angry anytime I mention the consequences. She does not have to reminded every two minutes of the consequences of what she has done.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She wishes she had never had the affair, that it didn't happen. (Welcome to my life.) Sorry, but there are consequences for our actions.

I think you and her can make it. Go find a marriage counselor immediately. Yes, it will cost money...yes, it will take time. But, is there anything more important in your life than your M?

<small>[ July 10, 2003, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Jimmy Mac ]</small>

She love to go out with friends to bars and such. I usually get irritated. Not because I didn't trust her but because I was jealous that she had friens and I reaaly don't. I don't have a guy's night out. Jealousy in any form is damaging to m huh. She was jealous of me when I was off of work and she had to go in.

You and she have a lot of work to do. This forum helps as a support group.

You and she really need to go to counseling. Your local Catholic Church has an inexpensive service they can provide. Most insurance plans cover 50% or more of the costs.

A good counselor is worth every dime you spend.

I've been thinking about leaving. Will time away help or make things more difficult

P.S we have been reading this post together so please be sensitive. And she was not here and did not ask me to post about the porn. She just read it and can't believe I posted it. By the way I was thinking about leaving because we have just gotten angrier towards each other in last couple of days. She does not want me to go.

K,

I have read post after post on this site about how women view their H's porn addictions. I think you would benefit greatly by writing a post asking the ladies what they feel when their H's watch porn. Here are some that you will hear:

*It feels like infidelity to me.
*Why can't he stop looking if I'm good enough.
*How can I ever look like those women?
*He wants me to do the things he sees there.
*I feel violated everytime I discover he does it.
*I feel insecure about my body because of it.
*It's just like cheating.
*Does he think about that stuff when we make love?

I am horrified about what your wife has done, but I also really want you to understand how the porn contributed greatly to the vulnerability of your marriage. Even if you can forgive your wife....if the conditions that created vulnerability aren't changed....you will still be vulnerable to more pain.

Star*fish, 2Long & stunned-dad have given you some great wisdom. I wish I would have had someone around like them 10 years ago.

As to leaving, you and she probably need a "time-out." The emotional toll of talking about this 24/7 is incredible. Both of you probably feel like punching bags. The world you were living in suddenly vanished. You need time to digest all of this.

You don't have to leave to get time-out. Agree to stop talking about it for a couple of days, and when to return to it. Say, "We are not going to discuss this again until Saturday at 2:00 pm (or whenever)." Not because it isn't important, but because the world outside your home is still turning--the clothes have to be washed, the lawn has to mowed, and the kids have to be fed.

Also, take some time to read all the info on this site. It is very, very good.

<small>[ July 10, 2003, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Jimmy Mac ]</small>

KB:

I agree. If you can hold off the R discussions for a while and focus on trying 2 understand each other (so long as you can do so without LBing, that is), then it's much better for you NOT 2 leave than it is 2 leave 2 do so.

I'm really big on communication, and that's hard 2 do when you're apart but wondering all kinds of things that your S might be doing behind your back. My imagination goes crazy in si2ations like that. It's much better when we can talk. But we have only just been able 2 do that deeply without one of us getting angry, in the past week! I like 2 think that I'm just denser than most, and it doesn't take this long for most (heck, it doesn't! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

I would consider it a blessing that your W is reading on here with you. Have you considered suggesting she register herself, so that she can tell us how she's feeling and ask for supportive ideas? She might find comfort knowing that there are many former WSs here, and they're all interested in helping BOTH of you recover.

Also, try 2 assure her that our names and details of our si2ations are strictly anonymous. So nobody you know will learn of what's happened if you or she doesn't want them 2.

Again, regards 2 you both!
-ol' 2long

Hi KB,

You do not need to leave. Just take a break from the subject. I'd suggest the two of you see a movie together, but these days, movies will probably have triggers for one or both of you.

Do something fun TOGETHER.

You are very lucky, even though you don't feel lucky. Your W does not want you to leave. She wants to work it out.

Do you know how many BS's here, know about the A, the WS knows they know, and they continue in the A. The BS is trying their best to keep a M together when the 3rd person is still in the picture.

Leaving will not help. The pain, the ups and downs will follow you. And you will be wondering "what is she doing and who is she with". The mind, can be your best friend and your enemy.

Right now, it is hard for you wife to look at you every day, and see the damage she has done. She knows she is the cause of it.

The rollercoaster ride will get better, eventually. It takes time.

I found the book Surviving and Affair to be very helpful. Also His Needs/her Needs. I purchased both from the bookstore on this website. I have heard that the major bookstores carry it. Both are written by Dr. Harley

Good luck to both of you.

I emailed Penny last night because I was so pissed-off at Jimmy Mac's posting. (Can you tell from my reply?) And you know what ..... she agrees with him!

I'd like to post some of what she said directly, rather than try to paraphrase, but my stupid email is down, (www.mail.com is a crappy service!). Basically she says that she sees this pattern over and over again, that men think their marriage is going great while the wives slowly seethe inside until they do something stupid and dramatic, like have an affair. She says if men would PAY MORE ATTENTION TO THEIR WIVE'S NEEDS this type stuff wouldn't happen.

I still think this is a load of crap, but I know better than to argue with The Wise One, so Jimmy, please accept my (grudging) appology.

KB96, I think you deserve better than this, but what does an old fool like me know? Talk to the Harleys or Penny, and good luck. (Remember, the purpose of this is to make YOU a better person, so that even if your current relationship collapses, you'll be a better partner in your next one.)