Oh thank you for the comments, its so good to be reassured in some of the things I´m doing right.

When I´m home next week, I will post my Plan B letter (my first draft, which he accidently found on the computer). As far as I remember my boundaries for taking him back were; No more other women, 100% commitment and marriage therapy.

Concerning accountability, fulfillment of emotional needs etc. I have not written anything about. Why? Because I believe, and please tell me if you think I am so wrong...that once we agree to be committed to each other and agree to commit to long term therapy I think that we should first and foremost start looking forward and just learn to not love buster for a period of time. The past, in my opinion should be locked in a box, and only openend in a safe environment, else it will explode. There are too many issues in our marriage that need to be addressed, I do not believe either of us are capable of doing alone. We will need alot of guidance and tools to find the right path for us.

That safe environment for our explosive box is in therapy. My husbands multiple affairs over 5 yrs of time since the day we married suggests to me that he has a "personality" problem. I know him well enough to see he does not see that yet. He is used to being 100% a taker, and his giving is only based on low self esteem, shame and guilt over his double life. He does not know how to fulfil other peoples EN´s, he does not see sense in accountability...he needs help to see these things. I am the wrong person to open his mind and tell him what is good, normal and healthy, as he will se me as controlling and manipulative. He is controlling and manipulative, so he will not like that feeling that somebody else, especially me might be right. Instead he will begin to defend his own way of thinking.

Marriage therapy and maybe even personal therapy is a must as he has alot to work on (but does not know it). I just started a diary for myself, jotting down every day the things I have done for myself to make myself feel loved by me. I have categorized myself into my emotional me, my physical me, my mother me, my sexual me, my active me. I tell myself how I have cared for each of those sides of me every single day and set a monthly goal for myself. This month my goal is to learn how to be alone with me.

I also write the things I have done to love others. I am working on my list of emotional needs and plan to search each and every one of them so that I have something to show for my own soul searching if we should go to therapy together.

If we however end in divorce then I still have searched myself, patted myself on my back for my progress and am more aware of who I am, what it is I have to give to myself and others and what I need from any future relationship. I am at a place right now, where time will tell where I will be, and I am ok with it.

-queen-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think that we should first and foremost start looking forward and just learn to not love buster for a period of time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">queen,

I wanted to comment on this statement because I think you are so right. Many times, what I see occur once recovery begins....is that the BS wants to jump right into the homework and relationshipd talks and heavy MB right at the onset. I really and truly believe that a period of peace is very healing before this occurs. It's helpful for withdrawal from the OP and it's also helpful to allow the WS to see the marriage as the alternative that was advertised in Plan A. It doesn't have to last for long....but then, the concepts and the Four rules can be introduced slowly. First, honesty must be established as per the conditions of Plan B, then next the rule of time which is essential to all else. It is a process and not an event. It took me a very long time and hard work in recovery to reach the contentment and happiness I now have. If you rush it....well it's about as bad as trying to rush potty training!!! And the results in both areas is a load of ****. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I guess I´m addicted to posting here. Today is a bad day. Feel like I am in a very lost and hurting place. Missing my children, since it is my WS week with them. Will try to take better care of myself, talk with a friend. I think that I can´t handle seeing or talking to my WH today, so I plan not to. It will only begin to hurt more...

baby steps...

Hi Queen
The addiction to MB creeps in on most of us in the beginning I think <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sorry to hear you're having a bad day, but you seem to be doing OK most of the time and that's what counts!

Like your ideas for Plan B letter. What will 100% no women look like? Any particular "rules" or respectful behavior you'd like to see (e.g. No contact letter, access to cell phone and bills, email passwords, accounting for time...)
The challenge is how do you ask for these things in a loving, non-LB way in a letter no less?

When I wrote my letter I gave him 5 things he had to do...and he thought it was very unfair and controlling. He argued with me and acted like a pouting teenager. They were 1. N/C with OW 2&3. Counseling and possible anti-d 4. Honesty 5. More time spent with me and family. He said he was going to go to a counselor and say "Here's her letter, fix me", and I don't think he was joking. So maybe it wasn't the right way to ask for waht I wanted. But I didn't get upset, I didn't back down, I didn't try to convince him. These were the terms and I told him I thought I was being reasonable, there was no controlling him because I was willing to live with whatever decision he made...to do these things and come home, or not do them and live apart.

Thankfully he has fulfilled these "numbers" in spades. Things are MUCH better now.

I have also recently looked at his behavior and some posts about narcissistic behavior...it was the pouting adolescent that got me thinking. And some of your descriptions of H's behavior makes me think there is some narcissistic behavior. I'll be doing more research and will let you know what I find.

Hi there StillHereMakingIt,

I started a thread in Recovery called Stillwed this one is for you, just went over and bumped it, because she has made comments here and there about narcissism and I wanted to hear her thoughts about it.

Check that thread out and maybe you will find some answers to your pouting teenager, because my WS for sure is that. He is also a LEO, and Leo´s of all zodiac signs are very ego centered "teenagers"...

Hope it will help in your search for some answers...

-queen-

Hi all,

New day, not much better. I know why yesterday was so hard now. The night before, my WS sent me a text message and asked if I ever had anything going on with a guy I met at a photo course last summer. This guy and me became friends and met a few times to talk about photography! I wrote my WH back that I have never been emotionally or phsyically unfaithful to him during our entire marriage and that I could not understand why he is using energy on thinking in that line, when I have always been honest to him?

I guess his message put me in a bad mood as i could not understand why he is focusing on what I might or might not have done wrong? Does he need to validate his own choices again by putting the blame on me? I don´t get it.

Had minimal contact with him yesterday but in the evening shared with him my sadness over missing our kids. Could not sleep in the night either as i missed them so bad, so sent him a text message, can´t sleep cause miss kids and home.

He then sent me the following message this morning;

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good morning, sorry to hear that bu haven´t had the best of nights myself. I think our younger son was trying to drive me mad, he has woken me up 6 times and I am totally wasted...It is tough being split like this and I just realised yesterday that no matter how strong, right and just we think we are ourselves. our life will always be a product of the acions and decisions we have made, even if we think and try to make it different. Our situation is one created by your actions and decisions as well as mine - and I guess we have had plenty of chances to change the course for our relationship - we just have not. And now we have the result of maybe losing it all...It makes you think one more time in the future, not to let be, but actually to live life and share the passion. Just some thoughts I have had, hope you have an ok day. You could come here for dinner later? no promises of whatever.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I´m baffled. What the h*** is he trying to say? Especially this line...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Our situation is one created by your actions and decisions as well as mine - and I guess we have had plenty of chances to change the course for our relationship - we just have not. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WE have NOT had plenty of chances, it is ME that has been giving him a chance to save our marriage OVER&OVER again!!!! The reason that we are in this situation is because of HIS choices and actions and HIS choice not to respond to wanting to commit in order to change the course of our relationship to something positive.

Please wise ones, what is it that I am not understanding here in his message? Am I dumb or what? Anyone good at transalating this message into a language I might understand????

-queen-

Hold on here, this may not be so bad. It appears he's doing some soul-searching...this is a good start. But a start is all it is. He's trying to separate the blame and, I think, trying to look at your relationship more subjectively.

Are you thinking dinner? I'd go if I were you, but make it casual, no mention of the email unless he mentions it. No opinion of what it means, just tell him you don't quite understand it. Be as quiet as you can, it will give him an opportunity to talk out some of his thoughts. I wouldn't give my opinion of anything he's saying, just "Is that so". Bland emotion. If he says something mean, menacing, or something you just don't agree with, you can blandly restate your position, or so "that is hurtful".

Hey there,

Went to dinner and we opened a bottle of wine when we put kids to sleep, which was a BAD idea. We were talking about alot of "superficial" things, when all of a sudden got talking about pregnancy and the blessing and happiness associated to it.

That really triggered a whole lot of emotions for me, because I recently found out that he was unfaithful when I was pregnant and gave birth. We got into a discussion and ended up fighting, where I wanted to just leave. He stopped me by saying that I had too much wine and could not drive, so I lay myself in the guest room to sleep.

He came in after a while crying, that he just wanted us to have a nice time and that he thought we had put all of this "stuff" in a box. That he could hear that I was not having it all that good and he wanted to make me some nice food etc. He thought it was stupid that we lay crying in seperate beds and that why did I now take it to the point of fighting.

Told him what triggered it, and for the first time EVER he said he could understand that and that he does not have the answers for why he did it because we were very happy back then. He then said that I was making it impossible for him, because everytime he reached out a hand, it would end up in a row. That why didn´t I reach out a hand. Said to him that I have been reaching out to him for half a year now, with no results what so ever. He remained quiet.

He lead me to sleep up in our own bed and we held each others hands. Next morning (yesterday) had SF - missed being close to him.

Its changing day tomorrow and my turn to be with kids. Next weekend we have agreed to live under the same roof from Friday to Sunday as it is his birthday and we will spend it with the kids together.

Any ideas on a MEANINGFUL birthday present?

-queen-

QUEENOF,

Hope this finds you well...
I have posted to you before...and am sorry to see your pain continuing...but glad you are sticking around...

I am going to play devils advocate...take what serves you well...leave what you must...

I have very grave concerns...that your husbands biggest goal will be to ingnore and hope it all goes away...
that he will try his hardest to rebuild on a foundation of burying and forgetting...

I believe that you have lived this way for a long time...and have adjusted to do that for the sake of the family and the bigger picture...and all of us are more comfortable with sticking with what we know...

even when it hasn't served us well...change is scarey...

But to find yourself again...

The other thing that I am concerned about is readiness to lay a lot of blame at your feet...and even of more concern your willingness to accept that blame...

even from the begining of this post...to your latter..is a 180 in taking a little too much blame in my opinion...and a little too much acceptance of his blame...

he in my opinion is very good at convincing others that everything is not of his doing but their own...
and you must now stop your own participation in this cycle...

he alone is accountable for his direct actions and choices...period...as we all are...

he is no victim.

He crosses other peoples boundaries, but always manages to save himself with his extreme positivity and winning personality. So they forget quickly that he has just crossed their boundaries. BUT. My WS has decided that being late is his personality. People have to accept it because this is how it is. If they cannot live with it, it is THEIR problem not his.

Do you see what I am up against? He cannot see the benefits of making an effort not to upset others. Because everyone else around him have accepted his attitude, even though it irritates the living hell out of them. Me, our families, friends, everyone, we plan around him. If we need to be somewhere we make secret plans and say to my WH that we need to be a place at six, when really we need to be there at seven, so we know that we can make it. He has gotten everyone to accept his lateness and we all shrug our shoulders and say, aah well that´s just "WH name"!

Stop this nonsense now...so while he does this...the response has been for everyone else to be take on the role of protecting him from himself...

never ever again take responsibility for his time management...ever...set the time that a function should be..and go do without him...

what you all have been teaching him is that he can control all of us...family, friends,

People should view his actions and offer consequances that are appropriate...

the appropriate consequance to this extremely disrepectful behavior...no matter how much he tries to say it is their problem..it's not it is his..and his alone...

from here on out...
we start at this time..if your not here...
OH WELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

if he misses his childs school play..he has NO ONE to blame but himself...he is not a child...

do you see your role in this pattern of accepting rude behavior and OKing it....
time to stop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

remove yourself from his lateness...and let him live and feel the consequance of dissapointing others...why would you protect him from that??

No one ever makes him see the benefits...everyone protects and accepts his rudeness...

My goal - to be his friend

dangerous thinking on some levels...does his actions fit the definition of a friend...??
and while not advocating being enemies...

You need to stop and think and clearly define your own boundaries...

Actions - to show him that no matter what I am his friend and he is mine.

really?? no matter what??? wow...free license for him to do what ever he wants....and still he friend worthy??....

do you really really believe that...or are you selling yourself and standards at a price that you really can not afford...

and again this is not to make him the enemy..and all bad...but you need to define within what you will accept and tolerate...and what you will live with....

this is ALL about you....

He came in after a while crying, that he just wanted us to have a nice time and that he thought we had put all of this "stuff" in a box. That he could hear that I was not having it all that good and he wanted to make me some nice food etc. He thought it was stupid that we lay crying in seperate beds and that why did I now take it to the point of fighting.

wow... see how this works...you be nice and behave...and all is well...anything else...and you take it to the point of fighting...

I think NO dinners with just him..
I think NO alone time with him...
happy time with children OK...

I think you need to really find your focus and footing...and think long and hard about your boundaries...and how to teach him lovingly that things are not OK ...
not the same..
and are not going away..over dinner and wine...

think this one through a little longer...tread carefully..
I don't mean to bring you down..but I think you need to find control over you and let him live his consequances...

ARK

Ark, you are a bug in my ear and a very good one at it, because you always seem to get to the essence of what you think you are hearing.

Boundaries...yes that is a tough thing. Always has been. But I am trying to implement them with baby steps and hoping to get better and better at it on the way. The advice and support that I have received here has also helped me to set them.

I´m having a really rough day today as we have an agreement of NO actions and other people all of this month. Had to call my WH to hear if he would be training our son at football and his mobile anwering machine went off in Sweden. Guess where latest OW lives?

So, guess his NC means nothing and he can just continue his lies. I am SO TIRED of this crap and wish I could just shake him off, wiggle my magic wand and have started my new life without him.

Also took my son to school this morning and guess who I saw? The music teacher he had an A with for almost 2 yrs.

Feel so numb, tense and mentally beaten.

Guess I am gonna keep my end of the agreement. But I swear, when this month is up, the separation is rolling...if he does not comply to my Plan B letter, which he accidently found.

Well I promised to post it so just got to log off and log on again...

Dearest WS

It is with a heavy heart that I sit here writing this letter to you. It is truly sad what has happened to us and to our marriage. The direction that I must go now is not one of choice but of necessity. Let me explain.

Did you know, that even to this day, I love you and adore you with my heart, my mind and my body? The pain and emptiness I feel every day that you are not there, is sometimes too much to bear. I ache for you. When we married I thought it would be forever and have never considered that we would be apart some day. The memories of the good are what I choose to save in my heart. I wish I could download my “picture” memory to you, so you could see what I can see and what I will continue to hold close to me.

I have made many mistakes in the past and cannot change those. What I have been able to do is recognize those errors in my judgement and have learned from them so that I can take steps to ensure that they will not occur again. I know we had problems. You have made me realize that I made you feel like I was controlling and punishing you when I rejected your love by rejecting sex and physical contact with you. You also did not like that I was not independent and that I had also ceased listening to you. Again, I cannot change that past and can only say that I sincerely apologize to you for my part of creating the environment that hurt our relationship, marriage and family as much as it has done.

You know that I have changed during the past half year. I am making them permanent and improving myself and beginning to enrich my own life. I am striving to be the best person that I can be. I know I will continue to make mistakes, but will only measure myself on my successes in order to keep focus on being better and not drain myself of my weaknesses and failures.

I have thought a lot about our marriage, our current situation and about where we are going. You know my thoughts and feelings. They have not changed. I love you, I want to be with you and work on making our marriage the best ever. I cannot guarantee it will last 50 yrs or 5 yrs, but I know that when we do try together, pull in the same direction, then we do really well. I am ready WS not to just live together under the same roof but to work wholeheartedly on our marriage. I commit myself to you and us. But we need help, we need counselling, and it takes two of us, I cannot do it on my own.

You have told me you need more time and that you are very confused. I feel so much for you as I know that this is very difficult. You, like I, are at a crossroad in your life and feel that today´s decision will affect the rest of your life. Some decisions are tough and are scary, but no one said life would be a cheery dance, it is also full of hard and painful times. Then the easy times should and will be even more wonderful.

I respect that you have taken time to think about your life.

However, you have told me that you are still in love with one specific woman. You say that right now you have no contact with her, but it pains you as you want to keep contact with her. I do not condone it, or like it, but have no choice. You are the only person that can make choices for you and I will respect whatever decision you make. I hope that you will be happy in whatever you choose with your life and that you find peace. You are my friend, my lover and my husband. I only want true happiness for you and do not wish (and never have wished) any harm or ill to you. You are a fantastic father for our children, and for them it is just as important that they have the happiest father on the face of this earth.

To preserve the love that I have for you and for my own sanity I have come to a decision on my own. I need to stop seeing and talking to you until you make a decision one way or another in your own life. The current situation has become extremely stressful and hurtful for me.

There are no ultimatums or threats in this letter, but simply to say “no contact” at all. I know that I risk losing you forever, but I cannot continue seeing you without putting pressure on you to make a decision. If you make a choice where you want to come back and work on us and our marriage, I want to know that you have done it because you love me, not because you have been pressured into doing it.

Please respect my decision and do not contact me unless it is an emergency. I suggest we continue our live in and out arrangement, taking the children weekly, for the agreed time August to see if by then you know what you want. If you/I need access to the house or need to talk or spend extra time with the kids, I suggest we carry on with what we are doing with sending text messages to agree on those things.

I in turn will be looking at ways how to move on with my life, if it is to be without you. I plan to call the lawyer I met with and ask her to start the proceedings with the separation papers, with one years divorce notice. If it is clear to you within a short period of time that you want a divorce now, we can make it with only half a years notice. All of this can be stopped and reversed if you decide you want to give our marriage and relationship a chance.

If you still do not know what you want by end August, I suggest that we together begin to find a new place for me and the children to live. I know that you will want to make sure that their well-being and living arrangements for the future will be acceptable, neither of us want them to live under bad influences.

In the case of you choosing your own course, there will be a lot of details we will need to discuss and one of the things I choose to trust and believe in is that both of us love our children so much, that whatever we do will be the absolute best for them, so they suffer as little as possible. They are not victims of war, they are heroes of the love we have for each other.

I hope with all my heart that we find our way back to each other again. Please make everyone that asks aware that I am until further notice still your wife and that I want to work on our marriage. Please be honest with yourself, with me and with whomever else about that.

I love you WS and you will always be very special to me. Always. I just cannot bear to be with you or see you while you are still involved with other women and continue to give your love and emotional connection to someone else. I have loved you since I met you, I loved you whilst we were married and I continue to love you today, perhaps even more than I ever did. I will learn to forgive whatever pain you have caused me and hope that in time you will learn to forgive me too.

I hope we will be together again one day.

Love your wife
Queen

Great letter!

That is a beautiful letter. You implied what no contact means, I'm guessing you both have talked about it and he will know what that means too. Can you make it clearer? I'm the kind of person that has to have things spelled out sometimes. I think a Plan B can be very clear in what you want...and you are giving them an ultimatem. It is a threat, the biggest of all, and one that you are serious and sincere about...losing you. It is a big If...Then statement (in computer talk). If you proceed this direction, then this will happen, if you proceed another direction, then this will happen.

You are a great writer!!

I wanted to post Cerris reply to me here, as I asked her opinion on how I am doing on her own long thread. This is CERRIS reply;

Queen..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have posted my two latest letters here to my WH and would like to hear your opinion of what and where I am going. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What kind of response did you get to your letters? Generally when I have women write to men, I have them keep it very brief. Short, to the point. A man involved with someone else doesn't have the patience or the emotional interest to read a long letter.

Are you going anywhere? Not really. You're not in Plan A and you're not in Plan B. You seem to be doing a mixure of the two, which really doesn't work at all. They are very different strategies and when you combine the actions of both you get send a very muddled message that's pretty ineffective.

If you are struggling with the idea of Plan A then by all means move to Plan B. But in order for it to be effective it needs to be real. Plan B is defined by no contact. There is no such thing as a modified Plan B.... you can call it that if you want, but it's really nothing more than the Taker's strategy of withdrawal.

Plan A is a negotiating strategy to end the A. You do that by eliminating LBers, being willing to meet needs, by confronting your spouse about the A and letting them know how horribly it hurts you and by exposing it to the light of day and scrutiny of friends and family. That's all Plan A... and it should be done as much as possible, simultaneously. PLAN A IS ABOUT THE STRAYING PARTNER.

Plan B is a strategy to protect you from further pain due to the affair. Hopefully you've shown that you can eliminate LBers (which does NOT include the things you must do to expose the A)and are willing to meet needs. The last impression you want to give is that of a spouse who wants to save the marriage and who will be the partner he's always wanted.... once the affair is over.

Now, if you mix the two, you can see that you just have a mess. First you're trying to meet needs... then you're withdrawing to protect yourself.....then you're meeting needs. The message you send is not consistent.

And then, because you're getting worn down with the pain of it all your ability to meet needs and avoid love busters is diminished. Doesn't mean there's something wrong with you, it means your human and you just can't take the kind of thoughtlessness that an affair is all about.

So then, you're going back and forth between half heartedly meeting needs, withdrawing, and love busting. Eventually neither of you will be able to stand the sight of the other. You're not leaving a good lasting impression, and you're not being protected.

If you must share the house, then find a different way to handle the transitions. Frankly, I'd much prefer that you get an apt. and have the kids visit you there half the time.

Hassle? Sure. Divorce is worse. Whatever you think you will need to give up now to do a real Plan B is far less than you will lose in a divorce.

I would also write and send a brief PBL with the points I posted earlier this week. If I could arrange it, I would have you get an apt. asap, write the letter, make the move and give it to him all at once.

C

<small>[ August 14, 2003, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: Queen broken heart ]</small>

This is my reply to her answer and now waiting for comments. As you can all see I am at the end of my rope and need to do one or the other, and not be in the middle, because it is VERY confusing and draining. Do NOT do the middle thing. It does NOT work!

My reply;

Member: Queen broken heart
Member # 29255 posted August 14, 2003 06:54 AM

Dear Cerri, Thank you!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
The last impression you want to give is that of a spouse who wants to save the marriage and who will be the partner he's always wanted.... once the affair is over. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I understand the Last impression is supposed to be a good one after doing a strong Plan A. I did do a strong Plan A for SIX months. I was about to move into Plan B. But just when I come to a turning point I find out about 5yrs of betrayal vs. a one time affair. In shock for a week. Out of shock to devastation, chaos up till now. Love busting. Withdrawal big time.

I understand, that for him, the past 5 yrs are the past, for me they were suddenly the present. I understand that it would be best to work on giving that last impression, for him to want to be with me, the partner he´s always wanted.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, if you mix the two, you can see that you just have a mess. First you're trying to meet needs... then you're withdrawing to protect yourself.....then you're meeting needs. The message you send is not consistent. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I have the right insight to the strategy of ending the affair, the best to do for our marriage right now is PLAN A to "erase" my past few weeks of confusion, love busters and swings from withdrawal and meeting needs...and BE CONSISTENT. Goal - to leave the best last impression possible.

BUT can I do it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And then, because you're getting worn down with the pain of it all your ability to meet needs and avoid love busters is diminished. Doesn't mean there's something wrong with you, it means your human and you just can't take the kind of thoughtlessness that an affair is all about.

So then, you're going back and forth between half heartedly meeting needs, withdrawing, and love busting. Eventually neither of you will be able to stand the sight of the other. You're not leaving a good lasting impression, and you're not being protected. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cerri, I think I have honestly "taken" the thoughtlesness an affair is about. I did a Plan A and I proved it worked by him falling in love with me again. But after finding out of 5 yrs betrayal (a whole marriage), I couldn´t take it anymore. Why, because as you say I am human. What happened? - he falls right back OUT of love with me again, because I withdraw, am in shock, and show him I am human - not superwoman that can fulfill all needs and be the best person ever. At the same time OW is in a better position to fulfil his needs again, so the in love feeling over at her side of the lawn fills more.

My very direct question to you is, considering the circumstances, if I go to Plan B, BECAUSE there is no last impression effect - is it not fairly inevitable that we will end up divorced? In my attempt to protect myself, I actually push him farther away, because of the inconsistency he has seen the past few weeks, due to very understandable factors, that only I &everyone else understand, but he does not? FOG!

I have not had the energy to meet any of his needs the past few weeks and to tell you the truth I am drained of ALL energy.

But I promise you, if I have to, in order to save my marriage and us as a family, I will and think I can pull myself together for another round and get back in a Plan A, because I do NOT want the pain of a divorce on any of us. Could you give me a timeline here? How long do you suggest I take in order to make the best last impression? A month? Does that sound sufficient?

Cerri, I also have a problem setting boundaries. If I am to Plan A, have you any simple guidelines on how to set boundaries in a kind and loving way? These are the things I cannot handle right now.

1. Hearing it is all my fault. (I am blaming myself constantly and there are people around me trying to work with me to help me stop looking inwards, but if he does the opposite, I can´t progress from my unhealthy way of always thinking everything is my fault - childhood issues)

2. Hearing details of the OW, their lives, what they did for him, how fantastic, understanding, caring, wonderful they were. My H has no sense of what is hurtful and not hurtful. (I´m more than happy to hear what he felt he was missing in his life with me, but OW talk I cannot handle, because again this nourishes my sense of unworthiness, that every one else is better than me and I do not deserve to be loved - again childhood issues)

3. Accountability for his time, Demand of No contact with OW. (I know that in Plan A I cannot expect him to comply to these things, as he is still "choosing", but can i still say these things in a Plan A in a good way, without him turning it into a controlling LB?).

4. To continue to provide for me and children, and to especially keep his promises to kids, and tell them of his plans.

Cerri, I´m probably most ready for a Plan B, but if the last impression factor weighs heavily, I have to give it one more go, even though it is draining the very few last drops that are left of me. Do you understand that? I´m a fighter and I´ve got it in me to do it, I just need some support in making the right move, then I will do what it takes. I will, because I can.

-queen-

<small>[ August 14, 2003, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: Queen broken heart ]</small>

Ok folks, Cerris reply;

Queenie dear,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> did do a strong Plan A for SIX months. I was about to move into Plan B. But just when I come to a turning point I find out about 5yrs of betrayal vs. a one time affair. In shock for a week. Out of shock to devastation, chaos up till now. Love busting. Withdrawal big time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, you did a good plan A for 6 months... and then you found out about more betrayal and you turned into a screeching lbing shrew?

Well for heavens sake.... who wouldn't???? My gosh woman, I stood in the shower and screamed for hours. How long ago has this been?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand, that for him, the past 5 yrs are the past, for me they were suddenly the present. I understand that it would be best to work on giving that last impression, for him to want to be with me, the partner he´s always wanted. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But there is still an A in progress? Then it's not really the past is it? It's carried right into today.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If I have the right insight to the strategy of ending the affair, the best to do for our marriage right now is PLAN A to "erase" my past few weeks of confusion, love busters and swings from withdrawal and meeting needs...and BE CONSISTENT. Goal - to leave the best last impression possible. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well that sounds all well and good. But your emotions may have a different view entirely. They might just be saying enough is enough. Plan A is not about being perfect. You can't. You're human. And you've been betrayed in one of the worst ways possible. Plan A does not require that you make all the changes... it simply requires that you demonstrate a willingness to do so.... and you've done that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BUT can I do it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I did a Plan A and I proved it worked by him falling in love with me again. But after finding out of 5 yrs betrayal (a whole marriage), I couldn´t take it anymore. Why, because as you say I am human. What happened? - he falls right back OUT of love with me again, because I withdraw, am in shock, and show him I am human - not superwoman that can fulfill all needs and be the best person ever. At the same time OW is in a better position to fulfil his needs again, so the in love feeling over at her side of the lawn fills more. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then it's time. You do NOT have to be perfect. You've shown that you can be the wife he wants and needs. NOW it's up to him to show you that he's worth that kind of effort.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My very direct question to you is, considering the circumstances, if I go to Plan B, BECAUSE there is no last impression effect - is it not fairly inevitable that we will end up divorced? In my attempt to protect myself, I actually push him farther away, because of the inconsistency he has seen the past few weeks, due to very understandable factors, that only I &everyone else understand, but he does not? FOG! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan B is risky. So is staying in Plan A past the point of being emotionally able to take the stress. You're way past that point. My concern for your marriage is much less that he'll dump you for the OW than it is you'll decide he's not worth the trouble. That's the very imminent danger I see right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have not had the energy to meet any of his needs the past few weeks and to tell you the truth I am drained of ALL energy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then it's time. Past time. Three months for women is the max.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How long do you suggest I take in order to make the best last impression? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you've done a wonderful job. Protect yourself. You have no idea how many women I've talked to and worked with that insist they can hang on in Plan A just a little longer.... need to just a little more, a little better. And then BOOM they are done. They don't want to have anything to do with their husbands ever again. That's the biggest risk to your marriage right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cerri, I´m probably most ready for a Plan B, but if the last impression factor weighs heavily, I have to give it one more go, even though it is draining the very few last drops that are left of me. Do you understand that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course I do. I resisted Plan B for years, even when Willard Harley told me repeatedly that I needed to do it. It's the right thing, though. The last impression is that you worked your tush off and then were devastated when you found the depth of betrayal was more than you knew. Plan B to protect in that circumstance is the next step.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I´m a fighter and I´ve got it in me to do it, I just need some support in making the right move, then I will do what it takes. I will, because I can. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Write the letter and let's talk about it next week. It takes a lot of courage to do Plan B.... far more than Plan A.

C

<small>[ August 16, 2003, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: Queen broken heart ]</small>

My update to the situation is that I have not done anything yet. No actions. Things are still how they were besides the fact that I am not withdrawing or lovebusting like I used to. I am definately not Plan A:ing either as I am not meeting my WH needs.

What am I doing then?

I am trying to put myself back together and find balance. I know the Plan B is around the corner and am gathering courage to do it, though it is very hard to find the courage to do it. I guess I am building up that courage.

Feel tired, isolated but at the same time amazingly calm. Is this the calmness before the storm or what?

-queen-

Short update.

Spent weekend with WH, we were pretty close, had SF and also enjoyed each others company, though there were some emotional outbursts (crying) from both of our behalfs.

On Sunday I had the Plan B "talk" with him. Referred to my past letters to him and told him that whether he realized that this was the last week of our agreed month to "just think". Asked him where he was at, and he still does not know. He told me he loved me but to go back into a marriage scared the living S..T out of him. I told him that it scared me too, but that if we were to committ 100%, we would need to start our recovery by being good to one another and fulfilling each others needs, as well as counselling, no contact and other "ground rules".

Told him repeatedly that I have not shut the door on him and that I am ready to commit 100%, but only if we both do it.

Told him that this week he needs to think about how we are going to handle living arrangements from nex week onwards as I will not continue with this one week in/out of the house thing.

Told him that after this week there would be no contact as I could not deal with the pain he was causing me when I saw him, wanting to be a part of his life, but can not be that as he is clearly still pursuing OW and she him. I have asked him to respect my wish for no contact until he figures out what he wants. I asked him to start respecting that already now, as it was too tough to hear from him and "not hear" from him. He is out travelling all week.

Told him that I would now start the seperation procedure in order to bring some sense of security in to mine and our kids lives.

Today I went to see a really good lawyer, who will now start the seperation procedure. What that will brings is scary but at the same time I hope it will bring my wish for a sense of stability, as right now I have been 100% dependant on my WH.

I have a terrible migraine today, as this day will be marked as one of the toughest days of my life. I´m on a road now that I have never walked down before.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I have not written a new Plan B letter, I have asked him to reread my previous letters VERY carefully, if he is in doubt of my feelings. I have told him that what I have written is 100% valid, my feelings have not changed.

The ball is rolling in his court. Please dear MB´s I ask you to pray for me that he dares to pick that ball up and continue "playing" our marriage with a set of ground rules that will set us into the best recovery ever.

I for one continue to pray...and at the same time take the necessary precautions to move on, if he never comes round <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I truly believe I have done everything I could have done and showed patience and understanding for long enough.

-queen-