Hi Jaref,

I typed a long reply you to and lost it somewhere in cyberspace, darn it. I know this time I won’t cover everything like I did the first time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know that to be able to end the A w/OM that I need to get rid of the "in love" feeling I have for him. That is very hard for me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No....all you have to do is end it with the OM. “Just do it!” It will never happen if you wait to get rid of the “in love” feelings. What you don’t water ceases to grow. The feelings will die eventually. It will hurt like hell for a while, but there is also a certain peace within knowing that you have done the right thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The only thing I can think to do to end feelings of love for OM is to quit feeding them. Quit telling him I love him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No Contact will take care of all of this. No Contact is very important. A non-negotiable in my book. It was impossible for me to work with OM and ever recover.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This A has been going on for 5+ years. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My first affair was longer than that…off and on…off an on. It truly was an addiction, not love like I thought it was.

How do you keep all the lies straight and manage to live in two houses and keep your sanity? How in the world do you do it? How do you ever relax? How do you have any time just for Jaref?

My affair was terrible enough without trying to live in two houses. Don’t you want your life back? This relationship with OM is robbing you and you husband of your life together. What is the payoff for you? Is it really worth sacrificing your integrity for this OM?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> (My H didn't appreciate all that back then, but nowadays he wishes it was like it was back then. He told me that. He misses the "sweet girl" he married. I miss her, too.)I was a hairdresser and even my customers knew how crazy I was about him! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is still there. Work to reclaim her and your relationship with your husband.

The most painful part for me was betraying myself. How could I do that? When my husband had an A, it was absolutely horrible. But, that was something that someone else did to me. I had no control over that.

It was far worse when I went against everything I believed in or stood for and had an affair myself. How could I do that? Who was that girl that did that?

I strongly recommend counseling to help you get through all of this and sort it out. I first started counseling to try and find the strength to leave my marriage. That is what I thought I wanted. Thank God it did not turn out that way.

God bless,
Susan

<small>[ August 22, 2003, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>

Jaref just like you thought that you would never have an A, don't discard the possibility of your BH never having one either. The time you spend away from your H working on your job, web biz, and with the OM, gives him plenty of opportunities to get involved with another woman. How well do you know your H's whereabouts during your long absences from him?

<small>[ August 22, 2003, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Jaref,

I have thought a bit more about what you have been saying here and I thought I would offer you a few more comments for your consideration.

You have stated you wanted your H to "fight" for you.

You have stated that your H is the reason that you hold two jobs.

You have stated that you really want to stay home and just do your web company and perhaps handle the rentals.

You have stated that you are angry at your H because he is "weak". The term weak has been used by you alot.

Yet, when I offered the idea that perhaps you held on to the job you claim you want to quit because you didn't want to get OM out of your life, you agreed.

So then I start thinking and I realize that perhaps you really have deluded yourself by blame shifting and not realizing where the pain is coming from.

I would like to suggest that you have great angst about your job NOT because your H wants you to keep it, but because of the affair the pain your OM is causing you. Yes, your OM is the problem, not your H. He is the source of your guilt, you defiling your marriage, and your general anxiety. Not your H. If he knew the affair was still on it is very likely he might ask you to quit and you don't want to do that. YOU ARE ENJOYING THE PAIN TOO MUCH. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Next, lets talk about you wanting your H to fight for you. He has: twice. He lost both times. He would lose again if he tried to now. Do you know why? He cannot fight "for" you. He cannot make you do something you don't want to do. You are walking out the door with OM because YOU want to. What can he fight for, or with? Nothing.

He can however, and might well, FIGHT WITH YOU. But that would require that he was given weapons to fight with you. Such weapons would be knowledge of the affair, but more importantly the knowledge that YOU were committed to fighting WITH him so save the marriage. Anything less is doomed to failure and he KNOWS that because he has failed twice already.

Which brings me to another thought. Your H knows you are having the affair. He just has only two alternatives: to leave or to endure. He has chosen to endure because he loves you. But he CANNOT FIGHT. Worse, he may actually have decided to leave but has decided he might as well get something out of this marriage besides pure pain. So the loans are getting paid off, and when they are he may then leave.

What you fail to understand her is that OM is getting all of his needs met. He doesn't want to be married or commitment, but he gets all of his sexual needs, probably even monetary support ( you do buy him things don't you??), and a partner. You are obviously getting ALL of your needs met. Your OM provides many, and your H provides the rest including a cover of respectability. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

The only person NOT getting his needs met is your H, and there will come a time when he will decide to leave. You are in fact failing him terribly as a W, as a friend, as a lover, as a human being that he can count on. You are robbing him of his life.

Where is this going? You said that you love both men. I say phoeey! You enjoy aspects of both men, but you are not "in love" with either of them. You know your OM is a man that you should not and may not respect. He is a user, a weakman that could not recover from being betrayed, so he destroys other men's marriages. That may be exciting to you, but I don't see how you can face yourself or him.

You don't need your H. Not financially anyway, but you do need him emotionally. He is the stability in your life. He has "fought" for you and lost but is still there. I will digress for a moment. If you learn nothing on this board you MUST learn what a fight it is for a BS to endure the A of their spouse. How they have to fight their emotions, there instincts, to make a marriage work. You HAVE NEVER fought for anything as they have. As your H has. I am sorry to say that but it is true.

So I sit here and I contemplate the list of complaints you have against your H. I contemplate that you claim to love both men, and I realize that you don't know what love is. Because along with the feelings you associate with love, must come DEVOTION. That is love. Feelings coupled with devotion and you don't have that for either man.

Your H has it for you. You OM doesn't have it for you. He has run from devotion and commitment.

The word devote is defined on my computer dictionary as </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Main Entry:devote
Pronunciation:di-*v*t, d*-
Function:transitive verb
Inflected Form:devoted ; devoting
Etymology:Latin devotus, past participle of devov*re, from de- + vov*re to vow
Date:1586

1 : to commit by a solemn act *devoted herself to serving God*
2 : to give over or direct (as time, money, or effort) to a cause, enterprise, or activity
–de£vote£ment \-*v*t-m*nt\ noun
synonyms DEVOTE, DEDICATE, CONSECRATE, HALLOW mean to set apart for a special and often higher end. DEVOTE is likely to imply compelling motives and often attachment to an objective *devoted his evenings to study*. DEDICATE implies solemn and exclusive devotion to a sacred or serious use or purpose *dedicated her life to medical research*. CONSECRATE stresses investment with a solemn or sacred quality *consecrate a church to the worship of God*. HALLOW, often differing little from dedicate or consecrate, may distinctively imply an attribution of intrinsic sanctity *battlegrounds hallowed by the blood of patriots*.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jaref, when you really understand what that definition means, I think you will be able to let go of OM. But, from what you are telling me about your H, you don't have as much time as you think.

You mentioned or suggested that you live with both men. This makes it much more complicated, but it does give OM all he needs. Would you mind explaining what the exact situation really is? I think it will be helpful to us in talking with you.

I would like you to go back to the top of this post and reread the statements I attribute to you about your H. I see that NONE of them are true. What I do see is that they would be more accurate if you replaced your H's name with your name in each of those statements.

Which leaves me with a final thought. If you want to cease being a liar, then the first place you must start is with yourself. Quit lying to yourself, and blaming other people.

That is my suggestion.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just Learning:

"Worse, he may actually have decided to leave but has decided he might as well get something out of this marriage besides pure pain. So the loans are getting paid off, and when they are he may then leave."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On top of the possibility that he may be having an affair of his own (he is a prime candidate for one), this may also be another very likely possibility as to why he has endured Jaref's affair. I find it very hard to beleive that he is so blind as to beleive that Jaref is not continuing her affair with the OM, especially since she has already confessed to him twice and she presently has long absences from him.

<small>[ August 22, 2003, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Quotes from JL:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
"You stated that your H is the reason that you hold two jobs."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I DO NOT hold two jobs. I have one job, my own internet business, and some rental properties.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
"...angry at H because he is "weak"."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have stated several times that I do not think he is "weak".

[QUOTE}
Yet, when I offered the idea that perhaps you held on to the job you claim you want to quit because you didn't want to get OM out of your life, you agreed. [/QUOTE]
I was agreeing to the possibility that in the back of my mind that could be true. However, except for this A, I have never made/done any major decision without my Hs approval/permission (you know, the heirarchy of marriage) I believe that if I asked my H if I could quit my job and he said "yes", there's a very good chance I would quit the job and leave the A. But I do not know that for a fact.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
"If he knew the Affair was still on it is very likely he might ask you to quit and you don't want to do that."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure about that. It has been a very strong need of mine to be a stay-at-home wife. Something I was promised for years (while I was faithful)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
"...wanting your H to fight for you. He has: twice." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In what way? Yes, I guess he fought in his own way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
"...your OM is a man that you should not and may not respect. He is a user, a weakman that could not recover from being betrayed, so he destroys other men's marriages."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will not defend his actions, as I do not defend mine, either.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
"You have never fought for anything as your H has."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK...now you are wrong about that. I fought and struggled for 10+ years. I asked, I begged, I pleaded. And I gave up hope. My bad.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Quit lying to yourself, and blaming other people." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do lie to myself...
I do not blame my H for my actions. When I say the things that he did/didn't do, I am talking about the ENs that have NEVER been met. I know that it is still up to me to end the A.

To TooMuchCoffeeMan:
Yes, he is a prime candidate for an A.
I do not think my H is "blind" to my affair - he chooses to not think about it. That's how he treats everything. That's how he "deals" with things - he just doesn't think about them.

And no...he is not staying so I will pay off the loans - these loans have haunted us for years. We worked hard to get out of debt for years and this is the last thing...that's what that is all about.

Now...can I say something to yal? You know, Susan gave me some things to think about...and so did someone else about going ahead and quitting my job (can't remember who it was). Anyway, I'm contemplating all the things I learn and hear from you guys, then WHAM! You come in with torpedos. I understand that the truth will set me free. But have yal heard of "the truth spoken in love?" Yal did not even give me breathing time, and here you come in with full armour. Do you really think that preaching at me is going to make me quit what I am doing? No. I came to MB because I am trying to find the strength to end an A. I have opened myself up to you all. I take your criticism and sometimes your scathing, rude remarks. I do this in order to build relationships with people who believe in Marriage. People who won't look at me and tell me to leave if I am unhappy. People who says stick with it, work it out, make it happen: it's worth it. Every single day you all are in my thoughts. Every word you say to me is played over and over. I literally dream about the MB website and the postings...every night. You are having an affect on me, though it may not be as fast as you like. What you say DOES matter to me!

I was reading the replies to "ALD" that everyone was giving her. Yal didn't even sound like you cared about her - only that you wanted to be her judges. And you know what? Probably every thing that was said to her was right-on (just like what you say to me is probably right-on), but you scare people away. Notice that she hasn't been back?

Jaref if there is something I've learned is that if you wait too long to make a decision a decision will be made for you and it may not be one to your liking.

Every day that you continue being absent from your H life (to be with your OM) is one more day that the chances of your H finding another woman to share his life with increase.

I've seen thru friends and acquaintances as well as people on these forums, that many WS of today becomes the BS of tomorrow all because they neglected their BS. Do you want to run the risk of the same thing happening to you?

No, I do not want that to happen. Where can I find the strength, TMCM? Where? I cannot find it in me. All I find is fear. I am so scared. I am scared of going back to what our M was. I was so in love with my H. The disappointment tore me up. ALl I could think was "what is wrong with me?" Why can't he love me (he did - just didn't know how to show it). Why can't he stand up for me instead of his Mom? And all these other things. And truly, I know that none of those matter. I made a vow to him - a solemn oath - a covenant, and I broke it. I did all this is an effort to make myself feel better. ANd it does feel better for a while.

I know yal are trying to help me and I love each of you for your honesty and forthrightness. It is not easy to hear the truth, especially when it's about you and how you are being such a little sh**. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Jaref you are a financially succesful person and you more than anybody else knows that you do not become succesful by giving in to fear. By the same token how can you have a succesful marriage if you are not willing to risk disappointment? By the time you muster enough courage, it may be too little too late.

Jaref you may be interested in reading this paragraph from Pops response to Murph94 :

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">in my own experience with this i was completely lost when all this hell came out in the open. i felt that there was no way i could go on without my w in my life. it seemed that i was trapped in at every turn. financialy, how could i raise my kids alone, how could i manage as head of my household without her, how could i explain this to my kids and tuck them in at night with tears in their eyes. but as i was living through the trials i realized that i was in fact doing everything i was so afraid of anyway. this gave me a feeling of freedom. then i heard a pat benitar (sp?) song "i'm gonna harden my heart" and things fell into place. i was not rude to fullhouse (fh) (my w) or mean to her in any way. i just started to make plans for a life without her. i prepared divorce papers, started changing the house out of her name, let her know matter of factly that when she left she could take any and all things she wanted out of the house. there was Nothing here that made me feel sentimental or was worth me fighting with her over. and i started going out with friends without her. i didn't allow myself to fall into an A but i even went to a reunion with an old friend (female) from school. these were huge things in her decision to try and come back and work on our marriage. she told me that it made her realize that i was just eraseing her from my life.

i had no intention of doing that and in mb terms i quess that was a form of plan A.

interesting fact here is that when i first felt she was falling into her early EA my friends told me to do exactly those things i mentioned above. i refused as i was in denial or to blind to believe that she would actually have an affair. you know what they say about hind sight.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you see how conquering your fear, accepting and making peace with the possibility of the end of the marriage can in many cases help save it?

Jaref,

You said a few things I thought I would respond to. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now...can I say something to yal? You know, Susan gave me some things to think about...and so did someone else about going ahead and quitting my job (can't remember who it was). Anyway, I'm contemplating all the things I learn and hear from you guys, then WHAM! You come in with torpedos. I understand that the truth will set me free. But have yal heard of "the truth spoken in love?" Yal did not even give me breathing time, and here you come in with full armour. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Women, you missed the point. The response is so swift for a very simple and important reason. You, your story, your life is on our minds. I thought about your responses all last night. I HAD to speak to you this morning. I could not wait. What you haven't quite grasped yet, is that WE DO CARE. Love may be too strong a word but we care.

If I didn't care or wanted to hurt you I would simply leave you and your thread alone. It would be the easiest thing and you would go on as you are. Is that what you want? I don't think so, and neither does Coffeeman and the others that have posted to you.

You may not realize this but we ARE NOT in your head but we all read pretty well. Please go back to the start of this post and count how many times you used the word "weak" when describing your H. It is a clue even if you don't think you meant it that way.

Further, you stated you were not sure your H fought for you the two times you have confessed. I strongly urge you to read the posts here by the BS. What you don't understand is the fight that goes on within the BS to handle, deal, accept, and forgive. You haven't a clue. You have never forgiven your H for his failures as an H, and you continue to bring them up. It is hard to forgive and you have not really fought that fight yet, have you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you really think that preaching at me is going to make me quit what I am doing? No. I came to MB because I am trying to find the strength to end an A. I have opened myself up to you all. I take your criticism and sometimes your scathing, rude remarks.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I cannot speak for others, but I don't think I have ever written anything that I meant as a criticism, nor scathing. My honest "appraisal" (not judgement) Oh! you have defintely heard that, but it is clear you do need to hear a few things. You need to understand that what you feel is criticism and rude remarks is NOT meant that way. Frankly, it is meant to support you, to get you thinking, to hopefully make you dig deep to find the strength you say you want and need.

It is a complete waste of my time and most other people to "judge" you, but it is also a waste to not tell you what I am thinking and get your feedback. I think you will find most people here think that way. You may not realize it yet, but WS's are not only welcome here, they are necessary for this site to be healthy. Your presence here is a GOOD thing, for you and for many other posters.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do this in order to build relationships with people who believe in Marriage. People who won't look at me and tell me to leave if I am unhappy. People who says stick with it, work it out, make it happen: it's worth it. Every single day you all are in my thoughts. Every word you say to me is played over and over. I literally dream about the MB website and the postings...every night. You are having an affect on me, though it may not be as fast as you like. What you say DOES matter to me! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And what you say matters to us. So you may be surprised to know that your words play over in our heads is played over and over, and hence our rapid response to you as we focus on your issues. We must be rapid because it is hard to come back to thoughts days later.

Finally, as you said most that post here do see the world differently from you. Not because they are a BS or WS, I am by the way neither, but because we ARE NOT in your situation, we are not you. What we do want is what you want, a healthy, good, rewarding marriage to your H.

So you need to have patience with us as well. We can only respond and think about what you have posted. We DO NOT know your life's story, but most of us know that there are two sides to everything and while few of us have said it, it is clear your H isn't the poster boy for husbands around the world. Frankly, none of us are.

So have some patience, and go back and reread what I posted to you. This time realize it wasn't meant as criticism, it was my thinking leading to my advice. Is it useful to you or not? You have to decide this. If I am way off base I need to know it and why, so that the next time I offer something it might actually be of help.

God Bless,

JL

PS: As for the posts to ald and her OM. Please realize they are NOT trying to work on their marriage, and yes they are both married. ald is dealing with what his W, and her H have already been handed by her, not to mention that she has had a child by the OM. Those two ARE NOT building a marriage, they are busy destroying lives, their spouse's, their children's and each other. Frankly, they are getting "tough love" because they already feel sorry enough for themselves, that any more pity will drown them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I did go back to the beginning of this post - I never said he was weak on this post. I did once on the first thread, and for some reason everyone keeps bringing that up.

OK...let's say this.
1) I do not think my H is weak.
2) I AM angry with him for not providing the financial support he promised for all these years. HOWEVER, here and now I will not blame that on my reason for staying in the A.
3) I DO believe my H is a gift from God that I would like to reclaim. I would like to build our relationship to a level that shows praise for God and respect for my H.

Now, with that said, can we get past these things and move on?

I was gonna ask something else, but now that just flew out of my head. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Jaref,

Sure we can get past that point, but I think what I didn't articulate well to you, is that most WS's rewrite history, and focus on the negatives in order to justify in their heads what they are doing. The focus on the weakness or whatever, is not to really focus on that, but your overall view of your H.

If really thought he was a great guy, and really wanted to be with him, and love him, and be loved, you would NOT be in the A. That is sort of a DUH! statement isn't it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

But, what seems to me to be in your posts is a feeling that your H just isn't quite good enough to handle things, financial, emotional, whatever. And what I am really drilling for here is the concept that your A is strongly influencing how you see your H, and has for a long time.

Frankly, I don't give a diddly about your OM, but my comment about him cannot be far off whether you want to acknowledge it or not. You do however, need to quit seeing him as an attractive alternative to your H, and clearly you do see him as such.

However, as I think Susan pointed out, you won't quit seeing him as an attractive alternative until you withdraw from him. It won't happen the other way unless he turns into some kind of a monster,which he won't or isn't or you wouldn't be there.

So this comes down to you withdrawing from OM, and let me state right now, it will be very hard for you to do this since you have been with him for 5 years. You will need your H's help to do this is my thinking. If your don't feel you can draw on your H, you need someone perhaps this board but probably also a counselor to help you. Withdrawal is tough stuff. We all know that.

This brings me to your H and his financial support. You said he made about 45K. Sounds as if he could be a teacher. Let's say for arguements sake he is. Let's say for arguements sake that he loves teaching and is gifted at it.

What would you have him do? Teachers don't make huge salaries. Your need for financial security can be met, but only if the life style down sizes,is that something you could do???

My point is that you need to look at things from his side as well, and the use the Policy of Joint Agreement, POJA to reach a satisfactory solution.

I apologize if you don't think your web business is a job, but I run my own business and it IS a job. So, is it possible that you could reach an agreement on that portion of your income and that of your rental houses?

I know this cannot be the only issue with you having an affair, but it is one you keep mentioning. So, POJA it and move away from that job, which keeps you in contact with OM.

Must go home but I look forward to hearing from you, your thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

The focus on the weakness or whatever, is not to really focus on that, but your overall view of your H.
Overall, I think my H is great. I think cuz he's kind and he's patient. He's opposite of me, which of course was very romantic in the beginning, but irritating sometimes now. He's a procrastinator and sometimes very childlike. But I have come to accept that. Sometimes I even like it. The part I don't like is when I asked him to take over balancing the checkbook so that I could focus my energies on the business and rentals. Well, he paid the bills, but he didn't balance the checkbook for over one year! last month it caught up to him - he bounced a ton of checks and we paid out $500+ in BANK FEES.

I guess if I summed up my feelings for my H it would be this: he is sweet, fun to be with, but I am TERRIFIED to count on him when it comes to financial security (which is a big thing to me cuz I want to feel safe).

But, what seems to me to be in your posts is a feeling that your H just isn't quite good enough to handle things, financial, emotional, whatever. And what I am really drilling for here is the concept that your A is strongly influencing how you see your H, and has for a long time.
I honestly don't know what to say to that. When it comes to comparison, I don't believe the OM even gets close to measuring up to my H. He is not a CHristian. He gets depressed easily. He angers easily. He is NOT goal-oriented. He's a 40 year old who walks out on jobs whenever something goes wrong. I would not feel financially safe with him, either...and even less so than my H.

I guess what keeps me sort of going with OM (besides the "feeling of love") is that he has never promised me that I could quit working. He makes no financial promises. I think with him I feel like maybe "I" am the one in control. I seem to be forgiving of OMs financial shortcomings (sort of), but very unforgiving of my Hs. Hmmm...what'd'ya think of that?

I'm just sort of old-fashioned and I want to be a stay-at-home wife.

So this comes down to you withdrawing from OM, and let me state right now, it will be very hard for you to do this since you have been with him for 5 years. You will need your H's help to do this is my thinking. If your don't feel you can draw on your H, you need someone perhaps this board but probably also a counselor to help you. Withdrawal is tough stuff.
I must be thinking that I can slowly withdraw and make the "love" die...but as you are saying, I think I am gonna have to do a 180. Maybe I should get some meds now and start taking them.

This brings me to your H and his financial support. You said he made about 45K. Sounds as if he could be a teacher. Let's say for arguements sake he is. Let's say for arguements sake that he loves teaching and is gifted at it.
I have no problem with my H doing what he loves. I have no problem with his salary. What I have a problem with is 1) first I counted on him to help me leave my job - he promised when he went from part time to full time that would happen. It didn't. So then I decided to "help out" in making more $...which I did. But even then, even though my web income and rentals are as much as my salary from the job and his combined...he still won't give the go-ahead to quit.

I don't know why I am talking about this again...I was gonna let it go. Oh, yea...you brought it up! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

My point is that you need to look at things from his side as well, and the use the Policy of Joint Agreement, POJA to reach a satisfactory solution.
I guess I don't know what "his side" is. Maybe I should ask. But when we talk about this, he just says he understands...that's all.

I apologize if you don't think your web business is a job, but I run my own business and it IS a job. So, is it possible that you could reach an agreement on that portion of your income and that of your rental houses?
When I say it isn't a job, it's only cuz it only REQUIRES about 5 hours worth of work a week. However, if were to put more time into it I could definitely increase that income.

Thanks for the post. I came here for help and I do believe I am getting it. I am going to see about seeing a counselor next week - hope I have better luck this time (Last one wanted me to leave H cuz I wasn't happy. Makes me mad everytime I think of it. By the way, she used Dr. Phil's methods. What a crock. "Do you want to be RIGHT or do you want to be HAPPY?" That's what she always asked. I always said RIGHT. SHe told me I was thinking wrong, but I know I wasn't.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>When it comes to comparison, I don't believe the OM even gets close to measuring up to my H. He is not a CHristian. He gets depressed easily. He angers easily. He is NOT goal-oriented. He's a 40 year old who walks out on jobs whenever something goes wrong. I would not feel financially safe with him, either...and even less so than my H.

I guess what keeps me sort of going with OM (besides the "feeling of love") is that he has never promised me that I could quit working. He makes no financial promises. I think with him I feel like maybe "I" am the one in control. I seem to be forgiving of OMs financial shortcomings (sort of), but very unforgiving of my Hs. Hmmm...what'd'ya think of that?

I'm just sort of old-fashioned and I want to be a stay-at-home wife.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm scratching my head trying to understand why you are attracted to your OM. Correct me if I'm wrong but he apparently does not seem to want a commited relationship with you and he certainly doesn't have the qualities that you want in a H. I get the impression that even if your H were to change to the man you would like him to be that you would still not end your A with the OM because you are addicted to him like a heroin addict is addicted to heroin. It's not about your H changing but of you kicking your addiction to the OM.

<small>[ August 23, 2003, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Hi Jaref, i'm a former WS who understands that feeling of powerlessness you are experiencing..I usually lurk on this sight (gaining insight on my marriage and how i can make it stronger so that infidelity never enters it again)....i registered to reply to one statement you made...you said..

<Where can I find the strength, TMCM? Where? I cannot find it in me.>

you can find that strength in God Jaref...there's a wonderful post under "notable threads" that really clearly talks about the struggle that is going on around us when we're in an A...the struggle between God and satan.. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum28/HTML/002029.html after i read this post i KNEW that if i just put my faith in God, he would help me to find the strength to do what i knew was the right thing. He will be your strength, and no struggle will be lost if you put your faith in Jesus...he will be there for you if you let him....

God Bless...

"I accept what I have created and know that I can change anything I choose."

<small>[ August 23, 2003, 08:33 AM: Message edited by: dreamcatcher ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I seem to be forgiving of OMs financial shortcomings (sort of), but very unforgiving of my Hs. Hmmm...what'd'ya think of that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is part of the craziness of affairs.

Ever see the movie Chicago? I watched it last night. Remember the woman that shot the man in the head because he popped his gum? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

During my affair my husband could sit at the table and chew his food and it would drive me up the wall. I didn't like the way he did anything .

I felt responsible for everything and it ticked me off. I too felt responsible for seeing to everything financially. He just wrote checks. He didn't know if the money was in the bank or not.

On the other hand, during my affair, the OM could fart, and it didn't bother me one bit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I may not have lived in a different house with OM, but believe me, my husband and I lived our separate lives. I don't think he would have cared if I had. And yes, during part of that time he was having an affair of his own.

All we shared was a son.

After the affair(s) ended and I was over the withdrawal, things changed. We made a commitment together to work on our marriage.

My husband and I began to look for things to do together. We had to try and form a friendship again. We began doing new things together... going to the beach, getting season tickets to the football games at his university, walking together every night for exercise, we bought bicycles and began to ride together.

Once we began spending more time together, our friendship grew and the communication increased.

It no long bothers me how he eats. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> We can talk about and work on the financial aspects in our marriage. (I just retired from working and my husband is planning to retire at the end of the year.)

Jaref, you can't continue to live like this forever. It won't work. Somehow, someway things will have to change. The longer it continues, I'm afraid the more regrets you will have later on.

YOU CAN take control of the situation and change it. When the pain of staying the same becomes too great, you will make a change.

Susan (hoping I'm not too harsh...but, I have been there, lived it...)

<small>[ August 23, 2003, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>

Hi Jaref,

JareF, I cannot add to what has been added.

The others have provided great words of wisdom. I think you believe it too.

You and Your H will not be able to resolve the issues that lead to your unhappiness until you end the A, be honest with you H and start the process of recovery and resolving issues. Until then your M will be stuck, and stay stuck until either you or your H decides to make changes. I dont' see your H doing that, at least right now, and if he does, it may not be to your liking

Hi Jaref, Its me Hurtin, I know how hard it is for you to end the affair and tell your husband. But what is harder? Living the life you are living now? I think not. I also think that you are just wanting your husband to come and rescue you in a sense, stand up for you, be the husband almighty. One thing , how can he, he is hurt, angry , etc from the first two affairs. I think you are most afraid that he will just forgive and forget like the last time, and I believe you want more you want him to be your prince charming to rescue you, to tell you never do this again or we are through. Like I said before If you are truly wanting to mend your relationship , you need to come forth. The longer you wait , the harder it becomes, the easier you may lose him. We care about you. We are only trying to help you, and to be honest , Im suprised at myself because the ow destroyed my life, and here I am trying to help you, the ow. One step at a time jared. Please take the first step that is the hardest. You are very succesful in your life. Now make your marriage a success. May god give you the strength you need to take the first , and final step in ending your affair. Hurtin

Hi Jaref,

Since I first found your post, I've tried to keep up with it. I didn't think I had anything to offer you, so didn't respond earlier. You've received a lot of words of wisdom from people who know what they are talking about. I hope you have printed many of them, or atleast have gone back over them. I still don't think I have much to offer you, but am going touch on just a bit of what you've said anyway.

First, to be fair to you, I can't totally relate, because my A didn't last years, it was 7+ months long. I ended it 5 days after learning of my pregnancy. However, because we are both ws, I might can add a little. A couple things you said really stood out to me. I realize they have already been addressed by others, but for what it's worth, thought I'd add my 2 cents.

You said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know that to be able to end the A w/OM that I need to get rid of the "in love" feeling I have for him. That is very hard for me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, you don't have to get rid of the "in love" feeling for him in order to end the A. If you wait around for that, it will probably never happen. You just have to END the A regardless of your feelings. Follow that up with NO CONTACT of any kind, and trust me, the "in love" feeling you have for him, will go away over time. It may be a relatively long time, and will be painful, given the length of your A, but it can and will happen. However, NO CONTACT in any way, shape or form is totally necessary and crucial.

You also said the following:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
No, I do not want that to happen. Where can I find the strength, TMCM? Where? I cannot find it in me. All I find is fear. I am so scared. I am scared of going back to what our M was. I was so in love with my H. The disappointment tore me up. ALl I could think was "what is wrong with me?" Why can't he love me (he did - just didn't know how to show it). Why can't he stand up for me instead of his Mom? And all these other things. And truly, I know that none of those matter. I made a vow to him - a solemn oath - a covenant, and I broke it. I did all this is an effort to make myself feel better. ANd it does feel better for a while.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know all to well from which you speak.

First, the person who said you can find the strength in God is correct. Just call on Him, and he will give you His strength. He can also give you the words to speak to your H.

I understand your fears of going back to your H, only to have the pre-A/during A kind of marriage. It doesn't have to be that way though. It will require a lot of work from each of you, but the tools on this site are unbelievably helpful and are also right on the money. Have you read Surviving An Affair yet?

Mutual, beautiful love can be restored, take it from a cynic.

All the issues you mentioned DO matter. Yes, your A IS solely your responsibility. However, I think your concerns about what you didn't like in the M are still valid even though you had an A. If they weren't considered valid, and then were not addressed after your H and you decided to remain married, then you as well as him fall prey to yet another A. Indeed you would be in the same type of M relationship as before. The whole point is to recover/restore what you once had long ago. Or if you are like me and many others, to get the M you two never ever had, but one that you BOTH deserve.

None of this can begin to be accomplished till you take the first steps though. Tell your H, end the A, establish and stick to NC.

I'll tell you what I've told a few others. It was told to me in March when I first came to these boards, for which I am forever grateful.

Tell your H the truth, give him back HIS choices that he may not even be aware were ever stolen from him.

Let the chips fall where they may. Whatever happens, it is worlds better than living the daily lie that has caused you to live two lives, as well as to hate yourself.

If he remains with you, then you have a H who knows the full truth and is staying with you based on full knowledge!!!! What a wonderful gift for BOTH of you!

I agree with the others that have said he probably is aware, given your previous confessions, and your time away. He may just be givig you the opportunity to do the right thing. If that is the case, I think that shows great strength and character.

He can only take it so long though. Don't let him be the one to make the first move, or I'm afraid it will be a move that will cause you to be even more hurt, scared, and sad than you are now.

More than 2 cents...I'm sorry, but hope I've been of some sort of help.

Take good care,
~autumnday

Autumday ~~~~

Beautiful post. Simply beautiful.

Pep