This quote from Cerri is another reason why I wonder if I should confront...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> PlA is darn hard work. It's elimination of lovebusters in the face of terrible conditions. It's learning to communicate your own feelings when doing so is going to get you shouted at, or worse. And it's taking the steps such as exposing that will bring out the worst anger you've ever seen from your spouse.... and you need to stay calm and courteous through it all.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And as Takola pointed out in her misunderstood cake analogy posting, you can't just use some parts of MB and not others. But because my situation was so far gone, then I think: perhaps I should keep going without confronting as long as I can maintain love for him, simply as part of damage repair?

One thing I can say with absolute certainty is that I have been able to remain calm and friendly, no LBing. My H has no idea that I was dealt another significant blow over the past few days. I believe I may actually be emotionally detaching!

You know, obsessive-compulsive posting feels strange but I guess it&#8217;s part of therapy for me&#8230;getting thoughts and feelings out and on paper that I otherwise would keep locked in my head.

I&#8217;ve been up since 1:30 am reading, subsequently composing a long posting and then reading some more&#8230;of course, I ended up crying as I often do when visiting the MB site. I feel so lost in regret because I knew what was wrong with our relationship but I went about everything the wrong way. And it feels that basically in only 2 short weeks, my life changed drastically for the worse. If only I&#8217;d had the knowledge earlier the PA could have been avoided, etc. and we wouldn&#8217;t have so darn far to come back from. I am also so worried because this predator wants to have kids and is running out of time (35-36). I fear she will get pregnant deliberately as a way to hang on to him. She won&#8217;t be able to do it any other way&#8230;this I know.

Not that he and I will necessarily work things out but I know she will not be his final destination either way despite what she thinks. Unless there are kids&#8230;he would never abandon children and as others have heartbreakingly pointed out, she&#8217;d then be a part of our lives forever.

This kills me&#8230;a main part of our dislocation &#8211; at least in the beginning &#8211; is because we couldn&#8217;t have kids. It&#8217;s not his sperm count, just multiple miscarriages. This devastated me and led to sexual dysfunction and alienation from him. Clear to see in hindsight but not clear at all while it was happening.

Anyhow, the upshot is that I&#8217;m crying when he gets up at 6. He comes and holds me (doesn&#8217;t ask why I&#8217;m crying). Then we sit at the kitchen table and have a wonderful talk&#8230;about nothing but everything, just as friends do. But we haven&#8217;t been doing this for a long long time.

And I slowly realize that the 3 times he&#8217;s caught me crying over the past 7 weeks have turned into the 3 times he&#8217;s held me, the only times we&#8217;ve hugged. And each time he&#8217;s then talked to me, normal talking. He&#8217;s not uncomfortable, he&#8217;s just himself.

At 7:30 he has his shower while I&#8217;m folding laundry in the hall. And he first strips down and then gets dressed again in front of me. Previously there has been no visual contact (bathroom/bedroom doors closed etc.) either, very clearly a sense of privacy on his part. Again, huge change back to normal.

And finally, each time we say hello/goodbye&#8230;no hugs, no kisses. We are a very public couple (a ________ city institution someone said to me at a wedding reception on the weekend) so this too has been hard because it underlines to others that we are in such a tentative state. He careful maneuvers himself so that there is not even a possibility of touching (ie. I couldn&#8217;t reach out because he&#8217;s at least 6 feet away).

But this morning as he&#8217;s leaving with our interim lodger, he walks in front of me, leans forward, and kisses me on the lips. No passion (thank goodness because I haven&#8217;t posted my STD question yet!) but a very deliberate kiss of affection that we&#8217;ve exchanged each and every day for 15 years. Okay, at one time early in the marriage there was more passion in each and every kiss <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> but my point is this kiss was NORMAL for us.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ???? Does crying = vulnerability = safe-haven for him? Why does crying &#8211; which everyone says NOT to do &#8211; seem to be the right answer in my case? Surely the actions I mentioned above are positive? Surely they are not just guilt? Or are they? Are there any &#8220;surely&#8221;s possible or is everything open to both positive and negative interpretation?

I know I sound like a broken record because I&#8217;ve heard others say similar things and turn out to be wrong, but...this guy is very moral. I don&#8217;t know why he&#8217;d kiss me if a) he was in love with someone else or b) not feeling closer to me in a very real sense. He doesn&#8217;t do something because it is the &#8220;right&#8221; thing to do. He does it because it is right for him.

But I don&#8217;t know&#8230;maybe he feels sorry for me and wants to offer me comfort? However, I know he knows how I&#8217;d take this gesture and can&#8217;t imagine that he&#8217;d want to offer me false hope after giving me such clear BUG OFF signals for the past 7 weeks. A kiss is bigger than a hug, and is more than he&#8217;d normally do with a friend, even a good friend. I am a huggy/kissy person but he is a hugs-only kind of guy. (By that I mean I was the only person he ever used to kiss. Except his mom. Even then, not on the lips though.)

However, this puts me no further on the answer trail &#8211; do I confront so that at least we have radical honesty on my part, and he may feel safe to talk to me? I certainly understand that he wouldn&#8217;t based on my past responses to him so therefore it seems logical that I need to directly tell him that I can listen to what he has to say (a la TMCM advice).

Or, do I leave well enough alone for now&#8230;let some more good times come into our lives together before potentially blowing everything sky high again? He&#8217;s always been a reflective thinker&#8230;it takes time for him to process things. I tend to push him which is why doing a 180 has involved not pushing, giving him a receptive environment but letting him decide when he&#8217;s ready (to call, to contact, to engage, to hug, to kiss&#8230;to confess? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My wife still tells me she loves me (in a different way), we still hug, she still calls me at least once a day.

Yes, that would be one of the universal signs of an affair also. It says that she is comparing the feelings she has for you to the feelings she has for this other guy and that the passion and romance she is experiencing with him no longer exist in your marriage. That's generally not a conclusions we come to unless we have something against which to compare.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See? More confusion. Except that my H has not been saying these things all along...he's gradually thawed towards me and slowly re-established this kind of contact (not the "I love you" part though). And he's never said bad or mean things about me (comparing me to another).

But is everything good necessarily guilt???

And I'll just correct what I said earlier about Plan B being about negative consequences. I thought that was the point but now see differently from Cerri's reply later in the above thread.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plan B - however much it may be presented on the boards as such - is NOT a strategy to punish or heap consequences on the unfaithful partner. It's stated goal is to protect the betrayed spouse from further pain. If other things occur because of PlB, then so be it, but that's not the goal.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well then, I'm not ready at all for Plan B because there is still lots of love in my heart and it would be harder to not have him participating in my household (not necessarily more painful but complicated and next to impossible in the short term) than it is to put up with lies and absences while I detach and heal.

Oh Boy Awed,

You really let loose with this series of threads. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am sure I am not going to be able to address all that you asked, so I am going to give you my impressions.

First, you are right. Plan A is where you should be.

Second, from what you have said, there is progress.

Third, NO LB's ever again. Got that?

Now about confronting him. It may be true that he drinks too much and passes out before anything physical happens, BUT I DOUBT IT.

So let's you and I do a bit of a thought experiment. Let's say I am your H and you do strongly suspect I have entered into the PA range with OW.

What do you want me to know?

Why do you want me to know it?

What is your goal in telling me?

Finally, this is a really hard question for you to consider. Was it going to be easier to forgive me for the EA than the PA? If so why?

I am asking you these questions Awed, because your communications about his A should have clearly defined purpose, it should clearly convey the information you want it to convey, and it should NOT be an LB.

I also think you are right the drinking is a big issue, but it may be in response to everything else that has happened. You telling him you wanted out, was no doubt a huge blow to him. I presume you hae told him you were wrong and that you do want the marriage. I don't mean hinted I mean told him?

As for him comforting you when you cry, that is a good thing, BUT don't put too much stock in it. Men, find crying women very perplexing. On one hand we want to comfort, on another it bugs us because we KNOW we are being used, and third it really bugs a man when someone we love cries and we can do nothing about it. Now in this case he can and to some extent he is, but he is NOT ending the A right now.

I think you are doing very well Awed. I think you are realizing that treating your H with respect, no LB's, and having some care for his feelings is showing huge dividends. It also seems that the A is ending.

Which brings me to confronting your H again. You could point out that you know he spent the night at OW's house the other night. You could point out that while you haven't been in bed with them, you strongly suspect that he has had sex with her. You could point out that your biggest fear is that he will get her pregnant, or that she will try and become pregnant by him. Explain to him your feelings about not having children, and how you have reacted in the past, and why this is such a HUGE fear for you.

Now notice, you have not issued a single threat, you have told him you strongly suspect the EA, and you have NOT approved it, but you fear the pregnacy.

In short you have conveyed your knowledge, your fears, and your concerns, but you haven't said a thing about him, your feelings about what he may be doing, or how this will affect possible recovery.

All doors are still open. This is good, and it does place him on some sort of notice, but basically he knows he is hurting you. Without you having drawn a line in the sand you may want or not want to back away from later.

Do you see what I am suggesting? That is why I asked you the questions before. Get your message across, but don't judge. When you feel it is time to act you will act, but he doesn't need to be warned about that. Let him worry about whatever is in HIS head right now.

I know I am not as clear as I would like to be. But it seems to me in your case communications without LB's, threats, judgements, etc is important right now. You have or will reach your own judgement about things, but that is you, not him.

I must go, phone is ringing and I need to get some work done. But, you are doing very well. Think about this and let me know what you think.

God Bless,

JL

In response...it's not going to be short...you know that by now...(this is getting ridiculous&#8230;sorry.)

1. If what you meant by "let loose" was verbal diarrhea, yup...guilty as charged! If you meant I raised a whole set of new issues, I wouldn't be surprised. So much is swirling in my head and I never really know what is relevant and what isn't so I spew and hope something useful emerges.

2. I hope this means that you too see it as progress!!! My mom just thinks he's getting the best of both worlds and waffling but she's always worried about me first and foremost.

3. No LBs -- I got it and am committed to it 100% for life, as long as I always get it. You say: What??? Here's what I mean: I'm filling out one of the questionnaires found elsewhere here today (work, what work???) and it says...
Q: "what are your boundaries of acceptable behaviour"?
A: Lying is #1, absolutely. I really do not think that I can have a truly committed relationship without resolving this. Period. Before I came to this site, I would have told you the same thing. Radical honesty describes a lot of my life's approach. #2 is sharing plans & info with each other.

Q: "How can you state those without disrespecting him".
A, #2: "I have been responsible for many communication breakdowns in the past and I was thinking that if we shared information as soon as it was available, and told each other our plans in a respectful way, it would allow us to each make our own plans, know where the other (dog) parent is in case of emergency, and not feel left out of each other's lives, however unintentionally".

So...did I LB in that response?

But here's my big problem: how do I raise #1? I can request the truth a la TMCM quote above, but if he then says he's telling the truth when I know he is not, how do I keep on pushing without it being an LB?

4. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What do you want me to know? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want you to know that I regret not having sex with you (If this can reasonably be assumed to be the motivation for having the A) and understand how this might make you feel that I&#8217;d abandoned you as my H.
I regret not being your friend.
I regret not loving and cherishing you as I swore to do in a solemn vow, and that I finally understand all the pain I have inflicted on you.
I regret all the anger I have directed at you.
I want you to know that I love you unequivocally.
I want you to know that all these realizations have led to a fundamental change inside me, and that you can trust me with your feelings if you choose to do so. That I will never forget these lessons.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why do you want me to know it?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(Warning&#8230;potential LB coming out) I want you to know that IF you are omitting an important part of your life because you think I will not be able to handle the truth, that I am finally able to listen and hear what you are feeling. I believe I am strong enough to hear things I might not like to hear, without blasting you for having the courage to tell me. I am deeply concerned that if we don&#8217;t speak the full truth between us, that we will have a difficult time recovering our marriage to each other, and restoring trust between us. And, not the least of reasons, I would like to reestablish physical intimacy with you again as I should have done so long ago and now regret intensely.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What is your goal in telling me? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(And more LBs??) I hope that you will be able to tell me the truth in future because you know I will be able to deal with it respectfully. I want you to know that I know the truth and am hurt when I hear something untruthful instead.

(This one is tough to answer any further because I don&#8217;t really WANT to tell him&#8230;I want HIM to tell me. The only way I suspect he&#8217;ll recover is if he&#8217;s decided he&#8217;s ready to do the work. This is my essential reason for going flip flop on the &#8220;confront or don&#8217;t confront&#8221; issue. Either he decides that he is worth telling the truth for, that I am worth telling the truth to, that we are worth telling the truth for, or he doesn&#8217;t and our marriage is over. Whether this happens today, tomorrow or next year. It all seems to boil down to him telling and facing the truth. I&#8217;m not going to be a hypocrite and say the A was unthinkable in his situation, just that he too needs to commit to never having that situation occur again. This involves changes on both of our parts, not just mine. This would represent a fundamental shift in his attitude, to decide the relationship is worth working on and for. That&#8217;s not been there before.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Finally, this is a really hard question for you to consider. Was it going to be easier to forgive me for the EA than the PA? If so why? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(Nope. The EA was the most devastating for me. If he&#8217;d had an affair with a young beautiful woman, understandable -- which I must stress is not to say forgivable for others. If he&#8217;d had a one-night stand, understandable. An EA with this woman??? Not like him at all. Very very hard to take. Absolute misery actually. A lot of humiliation for me. Now the PA said more about him than me, and I really do worry that he may not be able to overcome his guilt, his negative feelings of self-esteem. Whereas for me, it is fear of pregnancy and transmittal of STDs, not excruciating pain at the thought. After all, I win by all comparisons so it&#8217;s pretty easy for me to see this as an act of self-destruction, not a putdown of me. The EA was the toughest for sure. But let me see if I can answer him.)

The EA was the hardest part for me to learn about because it told me such a hard truth about myself and the way in which I&#8217;d been treating you. And the fact that you could form such a close bond with someone right under my nose without me even noticing was also hard to accept.

But the PA told me that you had crossed a barrier in your mind which is why it was so significant. As long as nothing physical happened between you, I understand why you considered it &#8220;just friends&#8221;. And I was clearly not a friend to you nor was I a spouse to you. So intellectually I understand both the EA and the PA. But you are such a moral, loyal person, that I strongly suspect you will feel guilty that you had an A without leaving me first. (judgement???)

I am also fearful that I will not have the capacity to deal with an additional burden of guilt. I&#8217;ve failed miserably in the past at interpreting how you feel, or what is meant by silence or angry outbursts. I hope to have enough wisdom to understand when you just feel bad and don&#8217;t want to talk about things with me. To keep strong in my belief that one day we will have worked through all the issues that led to the A and leave it behind us completely because we communicate honestly and share our emotions fully with each other.

If we are completely honest with each other from this time forth, I believe that I can forgive your A, and more importantly, forgive the inevitable lies that went along with that A.

I know I can forgive you &#8211; and I mean this with both my heart and intellect fully engaged. I know this already because my broken marriage vows are of equal weight in my mind, and I am slowly learning to forgive myself and thus will be able to forgive you too. But I worry that you will have a tough time forgiving yourself. And this may jeopardize our chances of fully recovering our marriage because we must love ourselves as well as each other. (judgement or not??? threat???)

5. Yes, unequivocally I have told him I want the marriage. I have now spent 7 weeks in a very unpleasant place (he knows this, the fog is not that thick) proving that I am putting my money where my mouth is. He is in no doubt how I feel.

BUT...he may well be fooling himself that I do not know about the affair. When I asked him, he said just friends. I told him I would accept his answer at face value and have not asked again. So he may well be having a very tough time with himself if he's changed his mind and decided that he would like to try again. That may also be why crying "works" (although I am not "using" it and he know this, too, full well. He can tell this is honest raw emotion and that I am trying to hide it from him for the most part).

6. You said &#8220;he is NOT ending the A right now&#8221; followed by &#8220;It also seems that the A is ending&#8221;. But if we accept the premise that it IS ending, he is definitely the one ending it. No one has to tell me that &#8211; it&#8217;s obviously going to be the only possible scenario. There is only one pursuer in this duo and of course, stalking is always a distinct possibility in the future here.

End of responses&#8230;but a big re-framed question: Do you think I SHOULD confront? Or rather, applying MB principles that I NEED to confront in order to heal, recover, etc? Or can the healing take place &#8211; assuming the A is in the process of ending soon! &#8211; once he has re-committed to the marriage? (ie. If he is ending the A then I assume he is re-committing since all his actions point that way. ***Unless they are merely the actions of a guilty man who is now having the best of both worlds, which I gather would be the worst case interpretation!!!)

Why am I asking? How on earth can I trust my judgement at this point given that I cannot trust my interpretations? And his actions can be interpreted in diametrically opposed ways?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Which brings me to confronting your H again. You could point out that you know he spent the night at OW's house the other night. You could point out that while you haven't been in bed with them, you strongly suspect that he has had sex with her. You could point out that your biggest fear is that he will get her pregnant, or that she will try and become pregnant by him. Explain to him your feelings about not having children, and how you have reacted in the past, and why this is such a HUGE fear for you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay: I only know this because I tracked him. I ask him for trust that I don&#8217;t have in him. LB, non? I found him in a lie and let him continue to lie to me without pointing it out and following my own policy of honesty. LB? (Certainly wouldn&#8217;t make me want to trust me.) And once I raise the knowledge of the A, aren&#8217;t I then supposed to make N/C a condition as per MB principles? (or am I confusing things around again?)

One other point: don&#8217;t name what you fear. I worry that by naming pregnancy, I introduce the subject. What if everything I think is wrong and he&#8217;s madly (temporarily) in love and they share this fear of mine, laughing in bed together. I&#8217;ve just given the viper the ultimate means of control over him inadvertently.

In addition, I forgot to mention fear in bringing up the A in the first place. Alternate scenario: he&#8217;s staying here now only because he thinks I am in the dark. But this gives me additional time for Plan A, which is clearly working for me, no doubt about it. So if I confront, he leaves because A is in the open and he&#8217;s not willing to do N/C at this point in time, it will be a big LB and will set back all the good work done so far.

Final point: I do worry that if I raise A, he doesn&#8217;t end it immediately and we continue living together then I will start LBing (such as sarcasm about when and where he&#8217;s going). Maybe I&#8217;m not ready to deal with it above board with the same equanimity as when it&#8217;s below the table. And then where am I? I&#8217;ve requested honesty, gotten it, but have to live with the affair in the open. And if I really opened it up within the community (which I still don&#8217;t think he&#8217;s ready to do because of his actions), ditto comment above&#8230;that would be a big LB he would have trouble dealing with.

I am not an innocent party which is why I feel so many of the MB principles don&#8217;t seem to apply directly to me. An analogy would be if we were two BS negotiating when one is finished their A and decided to work on the marriage while one is still in an ongoing A and hasn&#8217;t quite reached that stage. Both betrayed and betraying, both with a lot of ground to make up, but oddly on roughly even footing once both have decided to begin working together.

Awed by how fast this is going, how excrutiatingly slow this is going, how up, how down, how in how out&#8230;

P.S. Wow, in all the blithering I forgot to mention that I ended up going to a show with OW and was finally able to break the ice inside me regarding her physical presence in my vicinity. So I can be friendly to her now too! I am really proud of this because I have felt intense hatred a lot over the past 7 weeks and have set another goal for myself -- to develop compassion for her, no matter what the outcome. (That's another thread's topic though...)

Of course, everyone kept pushing us together that night (she's still seen as my "friend" right?) which I thought would kill me at first. Weirdly, she kept stroking my arm, calling me "my friend", telling me what young guys she found "hot" (not my thing, never was, she knows that perfectly well about me), thanked me a million times over for driving (I'm always the DD as I don't drink...you can see another divide between my H and I now can't you?).

And you may reasonably ask...why was I there with her? It was a planned trip for 4 -- my H insisted I take his ticket and go in his place instead.

Perhaps you can see why I have such trouble deciding what is pertinent and what's not. Too much weird information...

<small>[ September 23, 2003, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

<small>[ September 25, 2003, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: awed18 ]</small>

Tried posting a new thread exclusively dealing with the issue of exposing A without LBs but received very different responses...pretty negative actually and didn't help answer the question as of yet.

Any suggestions? I'd really appreciate advice -- I suspect this weekend may be my big day with H.