And what does the POJA say about annoying habits?

I think POJA is a fantastic rule of thumb for marriages. We are practicing it now and have pretty much followed that rule from the start. But, realistically, can you POJA EVERYTHING? Are we supposed to POJA picking of thy nose and scratching of thy balls? Are supposed to POJA that awful look he gets on his face when he is lifting weights (really, it's awful! he bites his upper lip, crosses his eyes, and his forehead looks like a sharpei!)?

We are not ignoring this porn issue. We are discussing it. We have POJA'd it in the sense that I am okay with it as long as my boundaries are not crossed (infidelity, dishonesty, damage to our sex life). Am I enthusiastic about it? No, not unless it was somehow a 100% guarantee that he'd never cheat on me.

I think it is good to approach decisions from the perspective of getting enthusiastic agreement from both people, but I really don't think it is realistic to expect that you are going to be gung ho for everything your spouse does. Neither of us are perfect. We are different people. I love him for many of the things he does differently from me...many of them I have grown to like more and more with time. I used to think his jockish laugh was goofy and annoying...now I love it. I'll probably love that horrible weight-lifting look someday, too. That's not to say I'll one day love the fact that he jerks off to porn, but I just can't believe that POJA works for everything. If we can agree on the boundaries of using porn and he can stick to them, do you still think it is a problem?

Thanks for your response!
Smile

Smile-a-day,

A wise professor once said in a class I took: "You can't know the whole story until you know BOTH sides of something."

We've heard you argue for his (BF's,) position around the use of porn......You seem to be defending him and his use.......now I invite you to explore the other side of this issue. What are the cons of this behavior, as you see it?

I'm struck by the fact that you are here at MB'ers.....in the infidelity forum. Is that because you believe this behavior to be so????

Roberta

Roberta

I was also noticing how many posts that you have posted in a few short months. As Roberta has stated, you really deserve to explore what works for you. You say that he reads with you, does that affect your writing and your answers? What is it that you really want from a husband? Would this be the same man that you would want to father your children? If you had a teenage son with a porn addiction problem, would you trust that your husband, the father of your son would have the best advice for him? I know that you are young and you are not married, but I hate to see you make decisions from a short-sighted place where people do what feels good now. I'm assuming you will have children someday. This kind of behavior doesn't just "go away". Think about all the ramifications and think about what YOU deserve. Good luck!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm struck by the fact that you are here at MB'ers.....in the infidelity forum. Is that because you believe this behavior to be so????</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, Roberta, not at all. The reason I'm in an infidelity forum is because someone told me to post here to see what Cerri had to say.

Check out this thread:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=017699;p=1

There is some overlap, but also my posts about letting this topic go as I am satisfied with my BF's honesty and our agreement over his porn use.

I do not think his porn use is a form of cheating on me. I was surprised that so many men in my poll responded that way. I'm even starting to suspect that some women may have checked that box.

I may have done a lot of defending of my BF on this forum, but the two of us have discussed the various aspects in these threads...yes, he has read them. I think one too many people exaggerated things I said, misquoted me, and made him out to be a "porn hound" and all of this kind of turned him off of posting a response. I have to admit, if he did respond, I wanted him to defend himself. Why should he post if people are going to mutate my words to make him look bad? The only thing I can think of at this point is to defend himself and point out the misquotes and misperceptions and random assumptions.

Anyhow, thank you very much for your posts. If you'll check out that the other thread that I've linked to, you'll see how I came to my decision on this topic.

Smile

I never had a problem with my H's porn use before we were M, or even after we were M until after we had kids. He never seemed to be able to put it after he was finished...it was as though he was ashamed when he was done and had to leave the room and everything right where it was.

When our S got old enough to turn on the VCR and H had left tapes in it...then things got serious. As far as I know S never found anything, I would b%&*h about it and it would get put up in time until one day when S went to play on Dad's computer (when he was about 7) and said that Dad was going to leave me, he didn't want to be married anymore...I asked him why he thought this. S said "because he's looking for another wife". I checked the computer, H had left thumbnails of porn sites on the screen...sure did look like he was looking for something else.

Over the 11 years we've been together, his porn usage has seemed to escalate. I find he uses it as an escape, much like a drug. As the years have gone on he has gotten shadier about it. We are working on this...it is not a sex issue, it is an addiction issue, he is addicted to the "high" he feels and the sneaking and lieing.

Just some things to think about.

You'll never know what your BF will be like with kids...it's a chance we take.

Hmmmm.... ok.... well I read most of this thread last night and I think you got some really good insights from people. I'm not sure you'll like what I think or what I have to say, but I'll give you my input anyway and you can do what you want with it. Deal? Cool.

First, I have to say that although no one wants to bring this up and cause waves on the topic there are some very real dangers associated with living together and not being married. And no, for me this is not a moral/ethical issue, I frankly don't have a moral issue with sex outside marriage AS LONG AS IT IS CONSENTING ADULTS AND NO ONE IS HARMED.

But, studies by the CDC and others have shown that the incidence of domestic violence in romantic relationships is significantly higher when the couple is either cohabiting or had lived together prior to marriage. When you remove those conditions from the results the incidence of domestic violence is very low. Something like 80% occurs in the situations I mentioned above. So, for you as a woman it is a statistically dangerous proposition, and that is my concern.

Also, we have this belief in our society that people who live together have better success at marriage. No where has that been shown to be true. In fact quite the opposite. Marriages where the couple lived together first tend to fail at a much higher rate than those where they did not. So again, for me it's not about morality, it's about protecting you from what stats tell us is the likelihood that you'll be hurt.

So then, what about pornography? First you probably need to know a little about me to know where I'm coming from. I am a dyed in the wool feminist. But I tend to look at the big picture of what is good and healthy and healing for women over all rather than jumping on the male-bashing bandwagon. So I'm an ardent advocate of marriage and opposed to divorce except as a last resort because I know it's in the women's and children's best interests to heal families where we can.

I also have very strong ethical standards about harming none. So for me that means looking beyond just the here and now and seeing the larger ramifications of the things we engage in. I'm not a fan of if it doesn't hurt me or my family then it must be ok.... I tend to be a little obsessive about wondering who else might experience harm from the things we do and working to eliminate that.

Ok.... nuff with that.

I was concerned with several things that I read. First that you say you practice radical honesty in your R and yet this info about the porn and the masturbation didn't come out until you asked him to tell you a "secret." When there is radical honesty there are no secrets... it's mutually exclusive. I'm wondering what other things are not being shared openly?

The other thing that concerns me is that this goes on after you are asleep and after you've had sex? So, although I fully grasp the concept of men having a greater sex drive, this isn't about that. Particularly given the frequency that you say you are having sex. It sounds to me more about searching for the high that comes from sex rather than a physical need due to higher testosterone levels.... there's a difference.

You made a comment too about suggesting that your partner not do something that you are uncomfortable with being a demand. It's not. It is asking that he or she take your feelings into consideration when making decisions, and it is the very foundation of what makes a successful and long term marriage. It is the primary building block of compatibility.

A demand insists that your partner DO something for you or your way or that s/he live a lifestyle that is offensive to you. Letting each other know what things make you uncomfortable or what things hurt you and then adjusting your lives to take that into account is the only way to have a truly intimate and caring relationship. It's the only way love will last long term.

And yes, I do believe that POJA applies to all decisions in marriage.

My feelings about porn in general are very much colored by my belief that it is harmful. To the people in it, to many who view it, to women and how we are perceived and to society in general. I don't have an issue with nudity or with sex as I've said, but I have an issue with the potential harm.

In terms of marriage or a committed relationship I think it's playing with fire. It's inviting others into what is supposed to be a monogomous relationship. And as you say, you are already feeling as if you are not satisfying your partner. This only gets worse as you age. Being in your 20's you can still look like a 20yo <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But what happens when you are 35 or 40 or older? That feeling of not measuring up, not being enough to satisfy only gets worse.

Yes of course the media makes it appear normal and fine. But a not well known or well advertised fact is that a HUGE percentage of the media industry's profits come from porn. At one time the internet was 66% porn, it's probably more now. I had an article a while back about how companies you would not imagine are in this industry are huge sellers and distributors... so of course... it needs to appear to be normal and harmless. But ask most women and they will not see it quite that way.

Did you know that there are more physical adult stores (as opposed to cyber) in the US than there are MacDonalds? And that 70% of the online porn is viewed between 9am and 5pm M-F? That is an incredible problem for business productivity.

I don't know if your boyfriend has an addiction. I tend to have a more liberal view of addiction than does the addiction community. My feeling is that if one cannot apply the POJA to any behavior then there's a problem. Addiction? Dunno, but definitely some sort of problem that needs to be addressed.

Here are some links you might find interesting:

Sex addiction Q/A from Carnes' site

Online Tests from Carnes' site

Info about Dr. Carnes

Porn Profits for Big Corporations

Trafficking in Women - Worldwide

I have others if you're interested. I always say I have the world's most depressing set of bookmarks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

Bumping for Elnora

Hi Cerri,

Just wanted to say that I really appreciated reading all your thoughts on this matter. I tend to align with so much of what you have said.

What I find completely appalling at times, is that porn is such a cheapening of sexuality, and yet, is so woven into our social fabric, and we end up thinking of it as "normal."

Just because something is prominent and every time you blink your eyes it is there in some form...on tv, in magazines, etc.., doesn't make it any less damaging....It is damaging for a variety of reasons.....One being M and the great divide between men and women on this. It infects and harms so many peoples M. It takes away from the potential for a spiritual, sensual, sexual relationship between a man and a woman. One in which they share the most intimate connection.

Men, being attracted to porn, often want women to believe it is ok. It does serve THEM to have us believe this. But as my MC recently told my H and I, 9 out of 10 couples he sees struggle with this problem. He is clear about the ramifications of this issue and has expressed it.

My H is recovering from a sexual addiction......and I am all too aware of the places where his addiction is re-inforced in our culture.

Just my 2 cents,
Roberta

<small>[ September 13, 2003, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Roberta61 ]</small>

Hi Roberta <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Reading your replies I knew we pretty much agreed. My hubby too and he is an amazing and wonderful man to have done the things he has. I am awed when I think about it.

You have a good MC it sounds like. What a blessing.

Not really here today, so I can't stay and rant about one of my favorite topics LOL... but nice to hear from you.

C

cerri,

Your posts are so helpful to me also. Thank you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Posted by cerri:
"Here are some links you might find interesting:

Sex addiction Q/A from Carnes' site
Online Tests from Carnes' site
Info about Dr. Carnes
Porn Profits for Big Corporations
Trafficking in Women - Worldwide

I have others if you're interested. I always say I have the world's most depressing set of bookmarks."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If it wouldn't be too much trouble, I would love your other links.

Again, thank you so much!

cocoa101

Wow, no one ever wants my depressing links... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Here ya go <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

SA effects on families

SA effects on couples SA FAQ'a

And still one more effects of Porn

Even more effects of Porn

More effects of Porn

Effects of Porn

Porn and crime

Fundamentals of Prostitution

There might be duplicates of the earlier ones, but these are all very interesting.

C

cerri,

Thank you sooooooooooooooooooooooo much! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

cocoa101

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It sounds to me more about searching for the high that comes from sex rather than a physical need due to higher testosterone levels.... there's a difference. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyone who wants to read more about this can pick up "The Sexual Man" by Hart (which is a great book on what it takes to have a healthy sex life, IMO). It is EXTREMELY common with pornography use. There is actually a learned biochemical response that associates sexual arousal with an adrenaline rush - but this kind of sexual response requires more and more and more extreme material or experiences to satisfy it, as the old stuff loses its effects. Addiction in the purest form.

Yes, John, you are correct. It explains why Marital sex becomes such a bore soon in the relationship and why a man then wants it less and less with his w.....Add to that, the impotency which can also be a product of this problem......It is very troubling and infects a huge number of M's....but you know that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

...and btw......I mentioned some advice you gave me very early in my recovery in a post I just posted in the recovery forum. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm glad the advice helped. I am totally with Harley on the radical honesty thing.

Hey John,

Have you (or anyone for that matter) read "Every Man's Problem" or something like that...? What did you think? Is it good? Would you reccomend it? Someone asked me about it recently and I don't know anything about it.

Thanks - C

It's called "Every Man's Battle". The Authors have a radio show that airs on KKMS 2-3PM. They've written a whole series, including, I think, "Every Woman's Battle". I've read "Every Young Man's Battle", in preparation for a talk with my 14-yr old - I may give him the book to read, but it is kind of graphic, so it may depend on what kind of answers I get during our discussion. I'm not sure he is ready for that yet. I'd say it is geared more toward the 18-25 yr old age group, though for some 12-yr olds it might be appropriate, too. It just depends on the kid. Some kids of any age would find it too explicit - there are some descriptions of things in there about what not to do that are bordering on pornogrphic, not that that is the intent. It is a problem in dealing with the topic in a concrete way. They give examples and offer practical advice, as well as general principles to follow. If you are going to be specific, well, it is hard not to be a little raw at times.

Anyway, I would say the book is a great book for much of its intended audience, which is practicing Christians who are struggling with what sexual behavior is appropriate. I realy odn't think non-Christians would get much out of it, because they come at the question from the perspective of: "What does God say in the Bible about sex and it's place in our lives?" and "How do we get there?". Although there is a lot in the book about what not to do and why, the MAIN focus is on your relationship with God and how your sexuality fits into that, and what God's call to purity or "holiness" on all levels, not just sexual, means. So, for people who do not see the Bible as authoritative, and/or do not understand themselves to be in relationship with God, the whole point of view of the book would seem...weird, I think.

To contrast it with "The Sexual Man", I would say that "Every Man's Battle" is sort of more example and behavior based, and talks more about the principles of your relationship with God, whereas Hart's book is more about sex and what it means and what is healthy and unhealthy in that context. "The Sexual Man" is more about where you want to go in your sexual relationship, and "Every Man's Battle" is more about how to get there, and in particular how to avoid certain harmful behaviors or stop them if you have already developed bad habits.

Thanks John, I'll print out your review and pass it on. Appreciate it.

C