Hee hee, I like it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

bumping for Cerri

bumping up again for Cerri

If anybody needs a laugh for today . . .

I was trying to talk to H again about having his work life be something we both discuss and agree on as equals, instead of being something that he alone gets to decide on while I have no say in it at all. My reasoning behind this is that what he does there affects me just as much as it does him, and that's why I think we should discuss them freely between ourselves.

He insists that he is doing enough. He isn't going out for lunch anymore (except, of course, for when he does, like for his off-site birthday party, which he insists does NOT count because that was a business necessity.)

I said that I have no idea what he is or is not doing because he doesn't talk to me about it.

He angrily informed me that since I was NOT hearing about him going out, I should have known that that meant he was NOT going out, and it was MY fault for not putting two and two together and figuring that out.

This from a man with a ten to twelve year history of lying to me about exactly those activities.

He insists there is NO reason why he should have to discuss any of this with me. I told him how reassuring it would have been to me to hear about these things and have him discuss them with me instead of *still* keeping me in the dark about them, even if it is the other way.

He got even more furious. I was also informed that my feelings about his off-site, employee-sponsored birthday party -- my feelings that we should have POJA'd it in advance -- are "BULLSHh*T! BULLSH*T!!!"

Please don't chew me out again. I'm just posting because I have no one else to talk to about this. Maybe someone whose WS is acting like a human being will take comfort in seeing what some of them can be like, and be grateful for what they do have.

P_b...

Of course he has the right to do whatever he wants. And whenever you decide you are ready, you have the right to not put up with it. But based on his record, I doubt he will get the second half of that equation until it comes to that.

Meanwhile, I just wanted you to know someone did read this and is sorry you are hurting.

Kathi

p_b,

I would never laugh at this....I know how much it hurts you. I'm sorry that he just doesn't get it. What is your next plan? Are you considering some of the advice you've gotten? I'll try and flag cerri down if I see her and send her over here. She's been swamped after the internet probs.

I was trying to talk to H again about having his work life be something we both discuss and agree on as equals, instead of being something that he alone gets to decide on while I have no say in it at all. My reasoning behind this is that what he does there affects me just as much as it does him, and that's why I think we should discuss them freely between ourselves.

So I'm curious to know how you are approaching him to initiate this kind of conversation. If it's the same approach you've used in the past and particularly if it's about him instead of being about you you're probably not going to have a huge success. Although, given what you've told me about the situation it's most likely a rhetorical exercise anyway. But let's walk through it all the same to make sure the bases are covered.

He insists that he is doing enough. He isn't going out for lunch anymore (except, of course, for when he does, like for his off-site birthday party, which he insists does NOT count because that was a business necessity.)

Ok, but if you are getting into the -yes it is/no it's not - type of conversation you are most certainly not going to get anywhere good.

I said that I have no idea what he is or is not doing because he doesn't talk to me about it.

This is a good place to start, it's about you... what needs to follow is a statement about how you FEEL... (See thread with list of feeling words) and then ask what you can do together to help you feel better. Once again, I think this is just a rhetorical exercise because I think you are way beyond this point.

He angrily informed me that since I was NOT hearing about him going out, I should have known that that meant he was NOT going out, and it was MY fault for not putting two and two together and figuring that out.

Mmmmmm..... yeah .... well.....

This from a man with a ten to twelve year history of lying to me about exactly those activities.

Well esactly, the problem is that you never did any recovery work, you just swept it under the rug more or less and went on. Although most affairs end and most marriages don't end directly because of the affair... they DO end because there is no plan or conditions for recovery.

Unless you take some proactive steps you will eventually decide he's not worth the pain and the hassle and either leave in terms of divorce or just check out entirely and build a completely seperate life. And that makes you pretty vulnerable to an affair.

He insists there is NO reason why he should have to discuss any of this with me. I told him how reassuring it would have been to me to hear about these things and have him discuss them with me instead of *still* keeping me in the dark about them, even if it is the other way.

And that's one of the first conditions of recovery... honesty and accountability. See, he should be the one trying to win you back, not the other way around. He should be making amends and doing what he can to make sure that you feel safe and protected. If you are not to that point then you are still in the affair stage and nowhere near recovery.

He got even more furious. I was also informed that my feelings about his off-site, employee-sponsored birthday party -- my feelings that we should have POJA'd it in advance -- are "BULLSHh*T! BULLSH*T!!!"

You can't POJA feelings, they are non negotiable. AND you cannot do anything in marriage as long as there are anger problems. People with anger problems make it impossible to negotiate because you become afraid to bring up the things that are bothering you.

Please don't chew me out again. I'm just posting because I have no one else to talk to about this.

Now why would I chew you out? I do think that you need to take a real honest look at where you are and where you're going. Your options are pretty straightforward... you can do what you've been doing and get the same response or you can try something different. At this point I really think you need to be in PlB, unless there is a big piece of information that I'm missing.

C

***So I'm curious to know how you are approaching him to initiate this kind of conversation. If it's the same approach you've used in the past and particularly if it's about him instead of being about you you're probably not going to have a huge success. Although, given what you've told me about the situation it's most likely a rhetorical exercise anyway. But let's walk through it all the same to make sure the bases are covered.***

Hi Cerri -- is that short for "Ceridwen?" Thanks for responding. I know you are busy.

I did try to explain to him how his actions were affecting ME. He laughed it off and went on ignoring me.

It wasn't until I learned, by reading his work e-mail, that he had been telling me what I wanted to hear and going right on having his fun with the girls that I finally lost it and became Psycho_B***h (his name for any crazy controlling woman.) But nothing -- and I do mean, *nothing* -- else even got his attention.

***Ok, but if you are getting into the -yes it is/no it's not - type of conversation you are most certainly not going to get anywhere good.***

You're absolutely right. He seems to think that his only problem is how to set me straight on how I'm supposed to feel, so he can go and do what he wants without having to worry about me.

He honestly believes that "I didn't mean to hurt you" absolves him of all responsibility. As long as it wasn't *deliberate,* he cannot understand why I am so devastated. I tried the "If you back your truck over my foot, it doesn't matter whether you meant to or not, my foot still hurts" analogy, but that was worse than useless.

***what needs to follow is a statement about how you FEEL... (See thread with list of feeling words)***

I have done this, many many times. I have tried to explain to him exactly how his actions have affected me -- how they made me FEEL -- and that just makes him furious because as far as he's concerned I have no reason to FEEL the way I do.

***and then ask what you can do together to help you feel better.***

I have spelled out in words a five-year-old could understand what it is I need from him. Not just WANT -- NEED. And that this is something we have to do together. That as long as he's going to reserve his work life solely for himself and insist that there's no need for me to be in on it, that it doesn't affect me, nothing at home will change. I am still just as shut out as I ever was and nothing feels any different to me than it ever did before.

***Once again, I think this is just a rhetorical exercise because I think you are way beyond this point.***

Yes, we are. And truly, I do not understand it. We always had a very good relationship at home, believe it or not. This was *not* a case of things being shaky at home and him thinking he needed to look elsewhere.

It's just that once he found out how much fun he could have with the bimboes at work, and saw how easy it is to fool someone who trusts you, he walled off that little corner all for himself while still keeping all the benefits of his marriage. He thought he was the cleverest man who ever lived for figuring out how to do this.

Now he's furious because his wife has gone into shock and severe PTSD after discovering ten years of this, and HIS world has been messed up and HIS life sucks and HE is a victim and HE insists over and over that he doesn't know what to do about it.

Do you have any insight on what would makes someone behave like this? Is this narcissism I'm trying to deal with here?

***Well esactly, the problem is that you never did any recovery work, you just swept it under the rug more or less and went on.***

Exactly. That's why I told him from the start that we had to talk about this and get it all out in the open, because sweeping it under the rug is the worst thing you can do. It will just lie there and stink and rot until it drives you out of the house. But he insisted we were going to do it HIS way -- which was, go out and have fun together and pretend like nothing ever happened -- and things got worse and worse and worse.

***Although most affairs end and most marriages don't end directly because of the affair... they DO end because there is no plan or conditions for recovery.***

I did try. He did give me a few things, like access to his work e-mail and supposedly telling me more about what's going on -- but I quickly learned that those things are all but useless because if I tell him that something is hurtful or disrespectful to me, he will do it anyway and then get furious at me for having feelings about it at all.

My idea of "tell me what's going on at work," was so we could POJA his social activities that have caused so much damage to our relationship. HIS idea of this was to simply inform me AFTER the fact about what he'd been doing so that I "wouldn't be in the dark anymore." But there would be NO discussion of whether or not these things were hurtful or disrespectful to me. MY feelings would NOT enter into the picture.

***Unless you take some proactive steps you will eventually decide he's not worth the pain and the hassle and either leave in terms of divorce or just check out entirely and build a completely seperate life. And that makes you pretty vulnerable to an affair.***

I would have moved out long before if it were not for my son. I cannot leave my son. He is 15, worships the ground his father walks on, and frankly I am terrified that he will grow up and treat his wife the way I've been treated.

***And that's one of the first conditions of recovery... honesty and accountability. See, he should be the one trying to win you back, not the other way around. He should be making amends and doing what he can to make sure that you feel safe and protected.***

Oh, I agree. That's exactly what I wanted. But HE will decide what's enough. HE will decide what I need. HE will decide what I can have. *I* will have nothing to say about it.

***If you are not to that point then you are still in the affair stage and nowhere near recovery.***

Well, sure. He's still far more attached to his career and his co-workers and the office bimboes and the massive amounts of attention and ego-stroking he gets from literally hundreds of people (not to mention dozens of office twinkies) than he ever was to me.

I just did not realize this for a very long time, and you bet, I am pretty much a complete PTSD wreck after (1) realizing what was really going on for all those years, and (2) realizing that I was powerless to do anything about it except leave.

***You can't POJA feelings, they are non negotiable. AND you cannot do anything in marriage as long as there are anger problems. People with anger problems make it impossible to negotiate because you become afraid to bring up the things that are bothering you.***

Well -- I was trying to POJA his social activities at work. He was the one who informed me that my feelings about his off-site birthday party were "bullsh*t."

***I do think that you need to take a real honest look at where you are and where you're going.***

I am just one more who thought she had a great marriage and a loving husband who got a horrible shock when she found out he had way more going on than just his marriage, and that he had no intention of giving up his private social life just because his wife wanted him to. That was NOT a good enough reason.

I do not know what makes a man with a good marriage behave this way. We had something very special, I thought, something that most people don't have. Or at least, we had it for the first ten years of our relationship, until Bimbo #1 showed up and he saw how great it was to have a wife at home and girlfriends at work.

Too much is never enough.

I've told him that it's not so much that he was stupid and got all wrapped up in some cheap office skanks. It's the way he has fought me and fought me and fought me on every last point I have ever brought up. I truly believe he would rather end our marriage than ever have to admit he was wrong.

A big part of his success on the job has been the way everyone there just loves him and considers him the greatest guy in the world -- especially the women. If he had to admit to me that getting involved with them was wrong, that would be admitting he'd handled his precious career wrong, too, and he'll knock me through a wall before he'll *ever* admit to that.

I am only one person. I cannot fight that whole damn place that he loves so much.

***Your options are pretty straightforward... you can do what you've been doing and get the same response or you can try something different.***

Mostly I just try to stay out of his way. I tell him that I am not capable of existing in marriage where I give 100% while he only has to give, say, 80%. That he should just leave me alone so I don't get the wrong idea and think we're going to have a real marriage where we discuss things *before* they happen, and so I don't go around thinking I'm going to be invited to something like his birthday and then be crushed when I find out I won't be. He doesn't want to have to go through THAT again, does he?

He just stares at me like an owl. I get up and go outside for a walk so I won't start screaming.

***At this point I really think you need to be in PlB, unless there is a big piece of information that I'm missing.***

I would have been in Plan B a long time ago if it were not for my son. I cannot leave my son. I guess you can just consider this case one of those nasty little sores that seem to be unresolvable. But at least I will know I tried everything I could before giving up.

Thanks again for responding.
(If your name really does come from "Ceridwen," you might want to see my website: http://www.okerry.net. Either way, the site might give you a little more insight into this mess.)

Alright... no one... and I mean NO ONE had ever got that Cerri is from Cerridwen. Not even when I lay out the dots and all they have to do is connect them. Heck, not even when I connect them half way!! Not even my Wiccan friends who should see the connection. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Alright, chica, now you've got my attention. But I have to go replace my son's cleats that got stolen so that he can play football tonight.. his first game in pads. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I would suggest that the best way to ensure that your son grows up to treat a wife the way his dad does is to give implicit permission for that behavior by not setting boundaries and making them stick. If he sees that dad gets away with it and mom complains but does nothing then it might follow that he'll think he can do the same one day.

I really think though that your husband is an addict and waaay out of control. I would guess that his company would not be nearly as forgiving as he makes out they are if they knew. I also wonder about the policies he is telling you are in place.

We need to talk more, but I gotta go chase football shoes. I'll be back late tomorrow, possibly briefly this afternoon.

C

Just clicked on your site... we have got to talk.... how very cool!!!

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by psycho_b:

I would have moved out long before if it were not for my son. I cannot leave my son. He is 15, worships the ground his father walks on, and frankly I am terrified that he will grow up and treat his wife the way I've been treated.

[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand this. However I think if you continue to endure this you will teaching your son that it`s okay to treat a spouse this way. It`s not and your son needs to understand the consequences of your H`s actions. Not to mention how unhappy YOU are. You cannot be the best Mom you can be if you are that unhappy and you sound very unhappy to me.

Your H is not going to change and why should he? You are unwilling to play the trump card. Your H has decided that he can endure your unhappiness as along as you stick around and he can go along his merry way. The way things are suits him just fine. Unless and until you decide things WILL change one way or another, nothing is going to change.

YOU do have all the power here to make a change. Do you realise that?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He is 15, worships the ground his father walks on, and frankly I am terrified that he will grow up and treat his wife the way I've been treated. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As long as you let your husband treat you the way he is treating you, this is almost 100% guaranteed. In fact I'm not even sure I should include the "almost".

<small>[ September 17, 2003, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

Ok, so I have to tell you that when I saw your screen name, I thought it was short for physco-babble.... not b*tch. I like the real version much better.... kind of a status thing... being a b*tch. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I did try to explain to him how his actions were affecting ME. He laughed it off and went on ignoring me.

See, that's what makes this a rhetorical exercise. It's obvious that he doesn't have any motivation to care about how you feel or to take those feelings into account.

But nothing -- and I do mean, *nothing* -- else even got his attention.

So like everyone else it's a matter of finding out what it takes to motivate for change and doing it. Except perhaps a little more extreme...

He honestly believes that "I didn't mean to hurt you" absolves him of all responsibility. As long as it wasn't *deliberate,* he cannot understand why I am so devastated.

But he doesn't need to understand. I really don't care if people understand for the most part I just care that they make the necessary adjustments and figure out a way to stick with it.

I tried the "If you back your truck over my foot, it doesn't matter whether you meant to or not, my foot still hurts" analogy, but that was worse than useless.

Yeah, I hear ya....

I have spelled out in words a five-year-old could understand what it is I need from him. Not just WANT -- NEED. And that this is something we have to do together.

Right, but I would suggest that the approach of telling rather than asking for input is likely to be met with defensiveness. So saying, "I need conversation and here's what you need to do to make it work," is more likely to get a negative response than, "I'd really like to have more conversational time with you and I'm wondering how we could make that work?"

That as long as he's going to reserve his work life solely for himself and insist that there's no need for me to be in on it, that it doesn't affect me, nothing at home will change.

But that's still about him and not about you. So, I'm not saying intersperse those things with feeling statements, I'm saying use feeling statements exclusively. "I feel ___ when ___." And leaving it at that... or asking, "what can we do to make this work better for me." But no other talks discussions or attempts to get something from him.... unless he engages in the second question. It's the difference (in my little world anyway) between honesty and nagging.

I am still just as shut out as I ever was and nothing feels any different to me than it ever did before.

I am so sorry.

Yes, we are. And truly, I do not understand it. We always had a very good relationship at home, believe it or not. This was *not* a case of things being shaky at home and him thinking he needed to look elsewhere.

You know, much of the time I'm suspicious of those statements, but I think you are correct. My take is that he compartmentalizes his life and his activities away from home and as long as you didn't threaten that lifestyle things were fine. I suspect a fairly entrenched addiction.

He thought he was the cleverest man who ever lived for figuring out how to do this.

<sigh> Yes, I know.... he's not the first and he won't be the last.

Now he's furious because his wife has gone into shock and severe PTSD after discovering ten years of this, and HIS world has been messed up and HIS life sucks and HE is a victim and HE insists over and over that he doesn't know what to do about it.

Right, because your discovery and upset threatens the addiction. It's not about you it's about keeping his addiction safe.

Do you have any insight on what would makes someone behave like this? Is this narcissism I'm trying to deal with here?

Funny you should say that.... Harely just talked about pd's today on the show. I dunno if it is. I'm not a psychiatrist and frankly I (like Harley) am not a big fan of that kind of diagnosis. I think he's someone who is incredibly selfish and self centered and I think he's an addict.... the two go hand in hand.

Exactly. That's why I told him from the start that we had to talk about this and get it all out in the open, because sweeping it under the rug is the worst thing you can do. It will just lie there and stink and rot until it drives you out of the house. But he insisted we were going to do it HIS way -- which was, go out and have fun together and pretend like nothing ever happened -- and things got worse and worse and worse.

So were you in counseling of any sort? This would have been what your c should have done for you.

I did try. He did give me a few things, like access to his work e-mail and supposedly telling me more about what's going on -- but I quickly learned that those things are all but useless because if I tell him that something is hurtful or disrespectful to me, he will do it anyway and then get furious at me for having feelings about it at all.

Yeah, it has to go both ways and you can't be the only one on board.

I would have moved out long before if it were not for my son. I cannot leave my son. He is 15, worships the ground his father walks on, and frankly I am terrified that he will grow up and treat his wife the way I've been treated.

You know what I think about this. Your acceptance and staying in the situation sends a powerful message that it's ok. I think your son should know what's going on.

I just did not realize this for a very long time, and you bet, I am pretty much a complete PTSD wreck after (1) realizing what was really going on for all those years, and (2) realizing that I was powerless to do anything about it except leave.

But separating in PlB is a very empowering step. YOU will feel better.

I am just one more who thought she had a great marriage and a loving husband who got a horrible shock when she found out he had way more going on than just his marriage, and that he had no intention of giving up his private social life just because his wife wanted him to. That was NOT a good enough reason.

Honey, I am so sorry.... but there are things you haven't done yet. Have you told your families? Have you talked to his boss? Have you talked to your church family? And then I would think seriously about PlB.

I do not know what makes a man with a good marriage behave this way. We had something very special, I thought, something that most people don't have.

I don't get it either, but I see it enough to know it happens. Have you checked out any SA info? I would highly reccomend Patrick Carnes' site www.sexhelp.com Carnes is the pioneer in sexual addiction. And I would also highly reccomend the book In the Shadows of the Net... Carnes' newest about online sexual behavior.... very very good.

Or at least, we had it for the first ten years of our relationship, until Bimbo #1 showed up and he saw how great it was to have a wife at home and girlfriends at work.

And you are certain that nothing happened before then?

Too much is never enough.

That is the slogan of an addiction.

I would have been in Plan B a long time ago if it were not for my son. I cannot leave my son. I guess you can just consider this case one of those nasty little sores that seem to be unresolvable. But at least I will know I tried everything I could before giving up.

So take your son with you.

Alright... so how did you make the Cerridwen connection??

C