Jennifer would not. In my very first session with her, she advocated letting everyone know what Kash was doing (which Jenn believed to be an affair), but they already knew. She also told me to go to Plan B within a week if he wouldn't commit to a plan for marital recovery.

Jenn is very strong and very brash. Let me put it this way, Kash didn't care for talking to Jenn, but he likes Cerri. He doesn't think she's as 'harsh'.

<small>[ September 17, 2003, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by *Takola*:
<strong>Write a letter and expose the affair. You need not specify that it is an "emotional" or a "physical" affair. It is an affair, plain and simple. That is not inaccurate, so passes even Mike's muster.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, that would not pass my muster, because outside of MB-land, I don't know anyone that doesn't assume an affair is a physical affair. While I realize that an emotional affair can be as bad or worse than a physical affair, the social taboo of breaking the sexual aspect of wedding vows carries much more of a weight to the non-MB citizens out there.

I think fogging it in that way would be dishonest.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Actually, that would not pass my muster, because outside of MB-land, I don't know anyone that doesn't assume an affair is a physical affair. While I realize that an emotional affair can be as bad or worse than a physical affair, the social taboo of breaking the sexual aspect of wedding vows carries much more of a weight to the non-MB citizens out there. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who cares what others will assume? They will assume many things. What does the assumptions of others have to do with saving a marriage that these others are not a part of?

I fail to see how saying it is an affair is fudging anything. It is an affair. To say anything but that is to be in denial.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by *Takola*:
<strong>[QUOTE] Who cares what others will assume? They will assume many things. What does the assumptions of others have to do with saving a marriage that these others are not a part of?</strong>

Probably very little, which is sort of my point. I think to often this "exposure" exercise comes from the wrong place...from anger and revenge rather than love and a hope for reconciliation.

I think one has to inform people that can help end the affair, not merely bring the scorn of the community and family down on the wayward spouse,. Or, at least, save that step for step two.

Obviously we disagree, but if pre-MB me got a note from a neighbor saying their spouse was having an "affair" with another neighbor, and subsequently learned that there was nothing physical going on, I would feel that the neighbor had misled me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mike C2:
Actually, that would not pass my muster, because outside of MB-land, I don't know anyone that doesn't assume an affair is a physical affair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, that's really not the case. There's been a lot in the news lately and a flurry of books that deal with infidelity as emotional and physical. I suspect much of that is due to the explosion of internet infidelity... running the gamut from online dating to sexually oriented chat rooms to other cybersex opportunities.

Shirley Glass' book which was released in January and is geared toward the general population deals extensively with emotional infidelity. Her research and her conclusions are impeccable. I take some issue with her stand on saving the marriage and particularly with the steps for recovery but the info about affairs, what they are, how they start is fabulous.

She does make some statements though that I think address what you're saying. Men tend to think "sex" when someone says affair. There are still a good number that will argue that there is no such thing as emotional infidelity... those tend to be the ones involved in it as opposed to the ones whose wives are straying.

Even when it's a clear case of a PA there is almost always denial and lies... statements about being "just friends." Which is why I tell people who are exposing to use a word that is factually correct and not so controversial. It's not all helpful to get sucked into the - no it's not/yes it is an affair - argument. Simply say, my spouse is having a relationship with so and so that is painful and offensive to me and it is threatening our marriage, making it impossible for us to repair our own relationship. That's respectful and honest.

C

Mike: I suppose my feelings on this also come from an incident before I got married with a previous girlfriend. We had a falling out (no OPs involved), which I thought was minor and workable, but she had blabbed our problems around to all our friends. I felt betrayed, and when she wanted to reconcile I couldn't see my way clear to trusting her again.

I would agree that doing so was out of line and inappropriate. Much like the statement I continually make about dissing one's spouse on the boards. It's an independent behavior outside of POJA.

Having said that, the POJA rules change when the problem is infidelity. It's already been breached and the BS must do what it takes to end the affair.

When my W and I had trouble a few years back, she was adamant that we keep it between us, and that was one of the saving graces, I think.

Absolutely. Problems and conflicts that come up in marriage should stay between you unless the other person is clearly malevolent and doing things to hurt you... then you may need to enlist other help. And unless there is infidelity... which is an addiction.

Exposing an affair is a major strategic move as well. If the OP is married, you may end the affair, or you may wind up with that person tossed out in the street and totally "available" for an even deeper relationship.

True, but that's acting from fear and not from a plan. Although they may move to a more involved relationship it will be with lots of conflict. Financial problems usually abound, and all of a sudden the R goes from fantasy with minimal conflict and LBers and lots of need meeting to all the trials of daily life. It's no longer trysts and candlelight... it's who pays for the groceries, what are your socks doing on the floor and I cooked last night. I'm never too concerned when an affair partner moves in together if the other stuff has been done... Confronting, exposing, eliminating LBers as much as possible.

All this presupposes that nobody grabs a gun. Also, in this case, it is all in a neighborhood with the children to think about as well.

Considering that infidelity affects anywhere from 60-80% of marriages in the US, depending on whose stats you use, how often does that happen? I don't think that's a good enough reason to not do what it takes to end an affair. The likelihood of the marriage ending and all the associated detriments to that is far more likely. Obviously if there is a history of violent behavior that needs to be taken into account but otherwise I dunno.... it seesm a bit over the top to me.

I totally understand the need here for stopping this relationship, and on the other board I counseled RJP to move, which I still think is the only way to recover from an OM two doors down.

Agree entirely. But first, he can't force his wife to move, THAT would be a LBer. If he moves without her at this point I think it would be detrimental. And even if he moves with her until the A is ended that doesn't do much in terms of contact. Most affairs are carried out by phone and email anyway.

But...I would rather see a Plan A foundation laid, and then a no contact plan put forward to the BS before going nuclear. (Or public.)

But exposure IS PlA. Plan A is: Eliminate Lbers, meet needs as best you can, confront and expose. As much as possible simultaneously.

I recognize this is different than what SAA says. The book was written in 98 and Bill Harley continues to refine and update his methods. It's part of what sets him apart from others, he's willing to make adjustments to his program as he finds out what works and what needs tweaking. This is what he is saying to people now in 2003.

C

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>Agree entirely. But first, he can't force his wife to move, THAT would be a LBer. If he moves without her at this point I think it would be detrimental. And even if he moves with her until the A is ended that doesn't do much in terms of contact. Most affairs are carried out by phone and email anyway.</strong>

I'm confused by your first statement. You made the case that actions to end infidelity, such as exposure to friends and family, are not an LB, and that POJA is out the door when attempting to end infidelity. But moving would be an LB?

Also, if you read RJP's previous posts on EN, this OM is two doors away in the neighborhood. His W is going down there and joining outside bonfires at night. They are all being invited to the same neighborhood gatherings. I think any email contact is a relatively minor part of contact in this situation, compared to seeing an OM day in, day out, out through your bedroom windows, every time you go into your back yeard or pull out your driveway....

I am not against the concept of contacting friends and family about an affair, if it is done with reflection and accuracy and the right goal -- to end the affair. Too often it is done in hot blood with the intent to harm and embarrass. I am not confident that is not the case here.

As to the Clinton-esque "affair" definition...well, we will just have to agree to disagree. I think that when one spends as much time in MB-land as you and I have, you have to remember that the rest of the world doesn't operate on our mindset or understand our nomenclature. (I find myself writing emails to friends and describing my wife as "W" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) I think most people hearing that two people are having an "affair" would presume as a given that sex is implied. When imparting this sort of information I believe it is imperative to be as accurate as possible as as to retain credibility under the inevitable further inquiries.

Even in Harley's writings, where you see the word affair, it is surrounded by the context of "lover" and "unfaithful" that imply a sexual relationship.

Again, I am not belittling the concept of an emotional affair....I think they can be more devastating than a physical affair. But just using the word affair, in America today clearly implies a sexual relationship to the vast majority of Americans, IMO.

One point to clarify my original post…

One reason for wanting to expose the relationship was because of my W. The other was because the OM was a friend of ours that was always invited over to our house and the houses of our close friends and family for parties, birthdays, vacations, etc. –all during the A. We were all a close group of friends and did nothing but make him feel welcome (he was recently divorced at the time). It just sickens me to think that he couldn’t be man enough and either admit what was going on or have the decency to not face me while the A was going on. It takes a person with no class and no dignity to continue to “hang-out” with the close friends & family while he is secretly ruining the life of the BS.

He even created a “secret” e-mail address using the name of a mutual close friend (one he used to date) in order to throw me off the trail. It’s been about a year and she’s still very upset about being used in this regard.

So, my original exposure was intended for them both and only went out to about 7 close friends and family. After they knew, the word got out without my help.

Remember: they not only deceived me, but they deceived these people too.

I think my situation and RJP’s are very similar, so I stand by my recommendation. The people that are involved with both of their lives have a right to know what is going on!

Hi Mike,

I'm confused by your first statement. You made the case that actions to end infidelity, such as exposure to friends and family, are not an LB, and that POJA is out the door when attempting to end infidelity. But moving would be an LB?

Well, you're taking some of what I said out of context.
Actions that YOU take to end your spouse's infidelity, things that could be considered acting independently, such as exposure are not a LBer because POJA has already been breached.

The betrayal of an affair is such that you can't POJA things that need to be done to end it. Because an affair is an addiction you can't expect to use rational processes to negotiate the end of it in most cases. Sometimes, especially inh the early stages you can, but generally not.

Today on MTR Bill and Joyce were talking about the hurricane and what if one person wanted to leave and the other didn't... how did POJA apply in that situation. And he made the point that when your safety is an issue you need to take care of that first. So if you want to leave and your spouse isn't enthusiastic then you still have the right to get to safety. The same would apply in cases of abuse. You can't POJA the steps you need to take to end abuse if your partner refuses to listen and take your feelings into account.

So, RJP would be perfectly within his rights to protect himself by moving. Although at this point I think that would be counter productive, I think he should give PlA a little longer. But to force HER to move would be controlling and demanding. The first is something he would do, which he could. The second is something he would force her to do which would not be ok.

Also, if you read RJP's previous posts on EN, this OM is two doors away in the neighborhood. His W is going down there and joining outside bonfires at night. They are all being invited to the same neighborhood gatherings.

Well, I agree completely that's it's a horrid situation. And that he needs to tell her how he feels about her participation in these gatherings and her interaction with this man. But he still can't force her to move...

I think any email contact is a relatively minor part of contact in this situation, compared to seeing an OM day in, day out, out through your bedroom windows, every time you go into your back yeard or pull out your driveway....

Even email contact is too much contact... affairs that go on this way after physical separation are just as destructive to the marriage. But really... how far would he have to move to keep her from driving back there? It would have to be quite a distance. I'm not opposed to him doing that in PlB... just to him forcing her to move. Following PlB or if the affair ends before that point, he can make it a condition of recovery, and I would think it would have to be anyway.

I am not against the concept of contacting friends and family about an affair, if it is done with reflection and accuracy and the right goal -- to end the affair. Too often it is done in hot blood with the intent to harm and embarrass. I am not confident that is not the case here.

Right.... one is an attempt to end the affair which is painful for all involved and the other is an angry outburst. Frankly, I don't care what's going on in the BS's head, as long as the way they expose is consistent with honesty and respect.

As to the Clinton-esque "affair" definition...well, we will just have to agree to disagree. I think that when one spends as much time in MB-land as you and I have, you have to remember that the rest of the world doesn't operate on our mindset or understand our nomenclature.

Yes, but I spend a lot of time outside MB too, reading about this topic in non MB sources. Glass, Carnes, Smartmarriages and many others discuss emotional infidelity. It's been in newspapers across the country.

I think most people hearing that two people are having an "affair" would presume as a given that sex is implied.

I would agree, but that is changing as there is more and more written about it.

When imparting this sort of information I believe it is imperative to be as accurate as possible as as to retain credibility under the inevitable further inquiries.

Agreed.

C

Thank you all for the responses. They are all very informative. I havn't done anything else as far as confronting or exposing since last Saturday, but if her behavior continues this weekend as it did last weekend, I think the nieghborhood is going to find out.

Mike-
I have been very sincere and accurate about what I'm telling people. This IS NOT out of anger!!! I love this woman, despite her recent behavior; and furthermore after reading SAA and all the other info on this site, I fully understand it and primarily blame myself for creating the conditions which allowed it to happen. I feel bad and remorseful towards her, I don't wwant to hurt her...rest assured of that. But, I WILL DO ANYTHING TO END THIS AFFAIR!!! I was 16 when my mom left my dad after having an A, I remember everything he did to try to get her back and nothing worked. He did everything wrong, and thru talking with him about my problem here, even he realizes that now.

Here is where we stand, just an update for those of you interested. this week from Monday on has been wonderful. I feel like I'm drawing her out of her shell (fog or withdrawal from the M, whatever you choose). Moonday I went to work for a half day and took the rest of the week off. I walked in the door around 1:00 pm or swo while the kids were taking a nap. The first words out of her mouth were: "What, are you here to babysit me now...???" I told her no, that I was here for me and the kids, it had nothing to do with her. I left it at that and went about my business. It just so happened that I ordered a payoff statement from the mortgage co. about a week ago and it arrived in the mail that day. I opened it and left it on the counter without saying a word. She looked at it and wanted to know what it was for. I told her that if she was leaving, the kids and I were moving. She asked: "Where would you go?" I told her that we would probably try to find a house somewhere between my folks and hers (about 55 miles away). She got all sentimental and asked: "What about me?" I said : "what about you? Thats not up to me." And left it at that. I've been using the divorce busters techniques all week and they are awesome!!! I feel like this whole thing has done a 180 and now I'm in the drivers seat. We went to the Twins game yesterday and had a great time together. She said that it was the most comfortable she has felt around me in a long time. She is feeling a little under the weather today so I'm trying to take care of her a little. I think this is going very well.

Now before any of you start in on me about how naive I'm being, I want you to know that No, I'm not throwing my blinders on just yet. She hasn't commited to saving the marriage yet and she is still going through the motions of linning up a job, somebody to watch the kids, and trying to find somepalce to stay when she moves out. I'm trying to meet her needs, which she is letting me do more and more. And trying not to love bust, she finally admitted that she is having an EA and I didn't get angry at her or anything. I'm hoping to convince her to do the coaching with me soon, for now she says it is a waste and that there is nothing to save. I'm going to keep on using the DB stuff and pretty much let her do her thing and pretend it doesn't bother me.

I have questions though.
1) Do I keep spying on her? Isn't that going against the 180 concept?

2) What do I do if she goes out this weekend and stays out all night?

3) Do I honor her requests to keep this between us from now on?

4) If she does leave, do I go to plan B?

5) How much privacy do I allow her?

Let me know what you think. Thanks.

<small>[ September 18, 2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: RJP ]</small>

Hi RJP,

Did you have your session with Jenn? How did it go?

after reading SAA and all the other info on this site, I fully understand it and primarily blame myself for creating the conditions which allowed it to happen.

I would be surprised if you fully understand it... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> 7 years of working in depth with the Harley material, counselled with them all, did the weekend, took the training and now volunteer as a followup coach and I STILL tune in twice weekly to Harley's show and learn some new subtlty that I didn't see before.

Grasping that you contributed to the conditions that led to the deterioration of your marriage is an excellent place to start, but it's just a beginning.

But, I WILL DO ANYTHING TO END THIS AFFAIR!!!

Think about calling Dr. Harley on the radio show next week. Mondays and Thursdays 1pm CT 888.332.5169 and get his input. He and Joyce (his wife) are wonderful caring people. Be sure to call just before 1 so you can get in. The show tends to fill up towards the end.

I was 16 when my mom left my dad after having an A, I remember everything he did to try to get her back and nothing worked. He did everything wrong, and thru talking with him about my problem here, even he realizes that now.

I'm so sorry. That's a terrible thing for a child to go through. So what happened with your mom?
Did she remarry? Her affair partner? Did it work out?

We went to the Twins game yesterday and had a great time together. She said that it was the most comfortable she has felt around me in a long time.

Another Twins fan!! Woooo hooooo Go Twinkies!!!! I do think though that handing out 2002 homer hankies was a little cheap. (My kids were there)

It sounds like you are doing some good things.

She is feeling a little under the weather today so I'm trying to take care of her a little. I think this is going very well.

Good. I think taking the week off and not pressuring her... the combination.... is one of the best moves you could make.

I'm trying to meet her needs, which she is letting me do more and more.

This is excellent. More the fact that she is letting you than you are doing it. I would say pay a lot of attention to conversation. That's how affairs start and that's what women tend to say was lacking most.

And trying not to love bust, she finally admitted that she is having an EA and I didn't get angry at her or anything.

Yes!!! Very good. If you can continue to make it safe for her to share those things you are making good progress.

I'm hoping to convince her to do the coaching with me soon, for now she says it is a waste and that there is nothing to save.

Here's the tactic I use when a client's spouse is reluctant.... I have them ask if they will just chat with me a bit so I can get their side of the story and some insight into what it is my client has been doing wrong so we can work on that together. If you do that... make sure to let Jenn know to be very gentle with your wife and not to push too hard... make sure she knows the reason your wife is willing to talk.

I'm going to keep on using the DB stuff and pretty much let her do her thing and pretend it doesn't bother me.

But that's dishonest, and dishonesty is a HUGE part of what got you to this place to begin with.


1) Do I keep spying on her? Isn't that going against the 180 concept?

What are you doing to spy? If it means checking phone and email and wherabouts, I would. If you've hired a PI... I wouldn't.

2) What do I do if she goes out this weekend and stays out all night?

Tell her calmly and respectfully how you feel about it both before and after, and then let it drop. This is where you show... not detachment... but calm. So you say, "Honey, I'm unhappy that you are planning to go out with your friends tonight, is there some way I could persuade you to do something else?" If she says no.... let it go and thank her for listening.

When she gets back you say, "I was lonely and worried while you were gone. I wish you hadn't been gone all night with your friends, it hurts me." And then you let it drop. No matter what she says or does... if she yells and screams... you stay calm. Thank her for listening, tell her you're sorry she's upset (not for what you said, that's the right thing to do, but that she feels badly) and then do your best to change the subject. The key is to not get sucked into an argument.

3) Do I honor her requests to keep this between us from now on?

If she agrees to end all contact with him, never see or speak to him again and to work out a plan so that you are protected from this ever happening again, sure. If jnot.... then she's not really keeping things between the two of you is she?

4) If she does leave, do I go to plan B?

Most likely, but let's wait and see.

5) How much privacy do I allow her?

There's no such thing as privacy in marriage. Did you read the Radical Honesty stuff?

C

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cerri:
Yes, but I spend a lot of time outside MB too, reading about this topic in non MB sources. Glass, Carnes, Smartmarriages and many others discuss emotional infidelity. It's been in newspapers across the country.

Interesting use of "emotional infidelity". Do you feel it would be okay to characterize to friends and family that someone was guilty of "infidelity", when there had been no sexual contact?

I guess this semantical debate boils down to whether "emotional affair/infidelity" is a subset of "affair/infidelity" or a separate category. I would argue that the terms "affair" and infidelity" have a sexual implication to the vast majority of people in this country, and and adding "emotional" is really an explanatory modifier for a separate category which, if absent, is, to say the least, extremely misleading.

There's no such thing as privacy in marriage.

Then, as I suspected, our bathroom door is locked way, way too often. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ September 19, 2003, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Mike C2 ]</small>

What?!?! You have a lock on your bathroom door??? Sheesh, I am missing out!!!

Shirley Glass makes the analogy of windows and walls in marriage. That in healthy marriage you put up walls around your marriage to protect from intrusion, and you open windows between you and your spouse to give and share intimate information. She goes on to talk about how emotional infidelity occurs when those are reversed.

You might be interested to check out her site which has some very interesting quizzes that are very much directed toward this topic. You have to mouse over the menu to see what's available... I nearly missed it the first time.
http://shirleyglass.com/

Interesting use of "emotional infidelity". Do you feel it would be okay to characterize to friends and family that someone was guilty of "infidelity", when there had been no sexual contact?

Absolutely.

C

Cerri:

I finally had my appointment with Jenn today (their office gave her the wrong contact number for me), it went very well. She had alot of very encouraging things to say. I'm really following plan A as much as possible right now. At this moment (@9:00 pm CT Friday) she is over at...you guessed it...another bonfire at this guys house. At least this time she came to me in a sadly kind of way to tell me where she was going. I told her that she knows how it makes me feel and I wish she wouldn't go, but she has to do what she has to do. Then I asked about what time I could expect her home, she danced around the question and then made her way out the door. I didn't get mad or anything. I just let it go. It really hurts that in spite of my feelings, she still chooses to go and be over there. At least she is seeming like she actually cares about my feelings though...although not with her actions. She said as she left that she feels like she's being a major b*tch, but she can't change the way she feels about us. Then she hugged me and left. THIS SUCKS!!!!!

As far as my parents go, they finally divorced when my dad got fed up. She stayed with OM for 10 years before he broke it off. She was crushed for about 6 months. She was misserable for the whole 10 yrs. and still she was crushed when he left...I don't get it. Anyway, my dad remarried a pretty nice lady a couple of years later and my mom is finally seeing a really nice guy. I really happy for both of them inspite of all that happened. It gave me alot of lessons though about relationships.

My mom has tried to talk to my W several times (they are best friends) about the illusion that things will be better out of the M than they are in the M, but W won't listen. My mom knows first hand what the reality is and it isn't pretty. 11 years and she is finally getting her life back on track. My W seems to think that it's going to be rosey on the other side but it just isn't.

On the Twinks...
They are really playing well right now. I agree that the 2002 hankies were kinda odd...COME ON CARL, loosen the purse strings a little here...give us something to work with...!!!! I'm a bigger Wild fan than Twinks fan, but baseball is a good off season sport I guess! I'm looking forward to seeing the Twins in the playoffs again this year and I hope they go a little farther this time.

Hi RJP.

What did Jenni say about exposing the relationship to family, neighbors, etc?

Mike-
I told her about what I've done so far and she said that it sounds like I've been doing everything right. She wants to talk again in about a month, so I guess she must have some kind of confidence in me to do this right. She said that both her and Steve differ from Dr. Harley in that they kind of think that since exposing is such a major LB that it should wait until plan B, but Dr. Harley says that family, close friends, and ministers shaould know under plan A. She said since I pretty much did what Dr. H said, I should wait until Plan B to inform the rest of the world.

She didn't get in till 3:10 am last night. At about 2:30 I went outside to see what was going on; and again fire is out, friends are gone and his lights are still on. This time I just turned around and went home. Jenn said I should have no more contact with OM until I send him the letter under Plan B, then thats is the last contact I should have with him. This morning I've been having a hard time, W asked if I was doing ok. I told her that I was sad that she knew my feelings and went over to be with him anyway. She said that her actions where for her and not to be against me, the fact that she likes someone else right now probably didn't have anything to do with it...at least she didn't think. Right. This blows.

<small>[ September 21, 2003, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: RJP ]</small>