She told me that she had called him from her moms and said that I didn't want her to talk to him or see him until everything was done .. she said all he said was ok. I told her how I felt about her again. That I loved her and still want to work it out. She said that she just can't .. I know it's because she feels guilty. She goes back and forth between anger and guilt. She is mad at me for "spying" on her and the way I found out. I do want things to work out and to rebuild our marriage. She doesn't she said the last two weeks I've been gone is the happiest she has been in a long time. I know that I messed up as a husband and that I took her for granted.. I am sorry about it. I wish I could go back and fix it befor all this happened.
Wow, last night was one of the hardest nights so far. I moved back last night we talked for a couple of hours she said that thru all of this she wishes that it was me saying the things he said, and did. I told her that I have been.. I've been complimenting her everyday for the last two weeks.I tell her I miss her and love her .. I told her that she had closed her heart to me and didn't notice the things I said.. she thought about it and started crying .. She went into the bedroom a little later I walked in and she got mad that I was there.. she said she was going to change so I walked out.. she locked the door. I slept on the couch (kind of) .. thinking about her all night.
As I sat there I was thinking that this was how she probably felt when I didn't realize I was making her feel lonley. I would watch one Tv and she would go in the other room and watch something else .. But know I realize how that must have made her feel. I tell you I sure was a stupid man. knowing she was right in the room next to me and that I can't do anything about it hurts. She was pretty cold towards me this morning .. I helped get the girls ready and she took them to school. Said she was going to get some gas and then goto the store .. Not sure if I believe that she won't call him but noway I'll beable to tell. She want's to go down and file this morning. She saw me putting some clothes away in my drawer and said getting comfortable? I told her that I moved back in remember .. she said I thought that was just until we file .. I told her No it is until all of this is over she said "ok" as if she plans on making life hell .. as if she could make it worse. Well I quess I'll see what happens.. L&C

<small>[ September 29, 2003, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: Lost&Confussed ]</small>

Bumped the feeling words for you.

C

Hi. Been following your story. I am WW and one thing I can tell your wife that is 100% true is this:

"New man, same problems"

...or should I say:

"New man, worst problems"

It is true. I have been in A so long it isn't all that exciting anymore...kind of sucks cuz I only have a 1/2 life. The OM I am with, I love him very much (and yes, I recognize it is fog)...however, he "understood" me so well when all this started. He gave me all the attention I was lacking. And now, he is the same as my H was, and even worst!

You might tell your wife this:
"New man, same problems. Now that you have gotten my attention and I am open to fixing things, why would you want to have to train a new dog when you have his old one listening now?"

L&C,
if you want to keep this marriage then you better stop apologizing and acting like a whipped dog!

sure you screwed up in the relationship but i'm more then sure that she did as well. people have a tendency to do that with each other. so what? does that mean she has a right to screw around and have an adulterous affair!? NO!!! and anybody that would tell you different has their head up there proverbial @ss!

stop already with the mia copas! stop accepting her right to have her affair! stop allowing her to dictate the terms of your marriage and the relationship. most important, just stop apologizing for your W deciding to screw around on you!

if she doesn't want you in the home then it's just to bad! let her make the ajustment! it's time she began to understansd that things aren't going to go just as she might wish...that you are'nt going to just fade away into the sunset so she can have her foggy little love affair.

from this point forward, everything should be negotiated...everything! she should understand that if she wants to have her cake than she better start paying the baker!

be nice, be calm and be civil but don't be a door matt! you have nothing further to apologize for. show her your attentative behavior and be as kind and sweet as you can be but when she steps out of line let her know that she can't get away with it simply because you love her.

stand up for yourself now! if not you than who will?

coach

She keeps telling me it's over.. and that I can't make her love me. I'm going to keep trying .. to be honest with you I feel like a whipped Dog. I feel like I'm about out of options as far as this goes.. but I'll keep trying because I do love her. L&C

LC,

Try the slingshot approach.

L.

LC,
feeling like a whipped dog is just that...a feeling! NO more then that! besides, why wouldn't you feel that way? what you're going through is a life changinbg kind of experience....the kind that really beats us up...physically and emotionally.

the thing is, don't let her see you feeling beat! your weakness will make her strong...affirm to her the rightness of what she's doing. crazy ha...but that's what seems to happen.

if it were me, what i would do is project a calm strong image to her and the kids. spend enormous amounts of time with them and try to stay out of her way. don't spy on her, question her, or try talking about the relationship with her. just back of totally!

let her observe you at your best. when she comes to you with a request or question try hard to be posative polite and loving. agree to nothing that's detrimental to you or the marriage but other then that, i would be as agreeable as you can.

and that written agreement i described, i would try and work it out with her. get something in writing that you both can reffer to..agree on! tell her that it is a simply way to create ground rules for mutuale living.

let's see if you can get her head out of the fog long enought to begin thinking logically.

good luck.
coach

Sorry Long one. -Well .. I think I've taken about nine steps backwards today. I went to the bathroom and when I came out my youngest daughter was digging in my wifes purse. I told her to stop and picked things up and put them away. Well she had this little note book of my wifes and I restled it back from her. I went to put it back into her purse and noticed that the cover was off and the page that was there was written in short hand. Over the last ten years I've learned to read shorthand because my wife writes grocery list that way. Anyway I read what she wrote. She said that I was talking about her in front of the kids on these days and about her being afraid of me. More or less she was keeping a record to take to court with her. Well when she came home I asked her if she was afraid of me.. she said No- I told her that my daughter had gotten in her purse and I saw the list. She got angry, which I understand because to her I was invading her privacy and snooping. I really wasn't trying too. ( My wife already thinks that I'm spying on her and thinks I'm stalking her.) Well we got into an argument about things and him and said that no matter what I'll always hold the A over her head. I don't want to all I really want to do is fix this with her. She is just so angry with me and thinks that I'm stalking her.. no matter what I do. I realize how it looks from her point of view. See one of the ways I found out about the A was taking pictures of her going to his house then back home .. the pics have time stamps on them. with hours apart.. I couldn't afford a P.I so I had to do it myself. So she thinks I'm stalking her because I wanted to know about the A. I personally don't think I was. I think that I wanted to know the truth and that was the only way I could find out. She thinks that I want to use the pics to keep her trapped in the house and to be with me. She started screaming at me that she hates me and that even if we live together in the house she will hate me forever. I told her I don't care about the A ( it hurts and I can't stop thinking about it.) But I love her and want to work it out. I think that she is just done and wants out .. I really do not want to make things hard on her, I do not want to hurt her, and I really am not trying to trap her into staying .. I told her this. I told her if she wants to leave she can but that she is not taking the girls. I told her she could go stay at her moms or OM's house that I didn't care.. ( I DO ) She got upset and I told her that I know she called him from work yesterday .. Got the same in gut feeling from befor. She didn't say anything - I told her that she couldn't even keep her promise for a more then a day and that if she wanted to be with him that bad to go to him and stop hurting me and the girls. She started yelling at me that she wasn't leaving the girls. I asked her what he said .. she said that he told her he doesn't want to be with her.. and that it is over. I got mad about this .. said a couple of things I shouldn't have - I told her that he got what he wanted why would he stay. Damn I'm stupid - she had said a bunch of things to hurt me befor this and I grabbed the opportunity to hurt her back. I'm so sorry now but at the time ? I tried to reasure her that I'm not trying to hold her here with the pics. That she could have them and do whatever she wants with them. I am upset with her for leaving the girls alone in the house. I think she thinks that I want to use the pics in court to get full custody of them. I would never take the girls away from her.. I wouldn't hurt her that way. She is a great mom and she has sacrificed so much for them .. I think that it's pretty much over . I don't want it to be but I can't make her love me.. I wish that she did. I miss her so much.. The lst thing she said befor she left for work was that everything in her life is messed up and that if I want the kids and the house to take it .. and she left saying she hated me- L&C

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Lost&Confussed ]</small>

In two years of posting on this website, I think this will be my first 'swinging of the 2 x 4' experience.

L&C -

Let me ask you...How is your technique for saving the marriage working?? Have you even read the info on this FREE website?? Have you purchased any of the books that Cerri has suggested?? Have you made any REAL improvements to the type of person you are??

So far your posts show you to be a controlling, obssesive, manipulating man. Hmmmm...and your W wants a divorce?

Care to actually try the MB principles that Cerri and others have outlined for you? If not, please keep posting so others can learn from your techniques.

This guy needs a wake up call...

Gib

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: Gibby1 ]</small>

Gib,

I was reading a post from RJP and when I was finished with it I saw your post.. at first I'll admit it made me angry .. but after reading what RJP wrote and what ashamedca said to him about things he's been doing .. I looked at what I've been doing -about the same things. Making excuses to keep catching her..

To anwser you - yes I've made some good changes in my self. I have more to make.. a work in progress I quess.
I am not trying to be controlling, obssesive, or a manipulating man. I am sorry that it appears that way .. and if it appears that way to a complete stranger then it really appears that way to my wife. Thank you for the 2x4 - I will try and focus on resolving our problems and not "catching her" anymore- or saying what I know to hurt her any more. It is hard because she knows how to push my buttons .. I am going to stop talking about the A and our relationship.. I'm going to be here for her and the girls - quit pushing the issues.. but I will do better from now on .. I really am trying to use your advice. I do appreciate your advice .. - L&C

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Lost&Confussed ]</small>

L&C -

I still remember very well the feelings I had when this was happening in my life. It probably took me 2 weeks to settle down also. You see I had MAJOR issues to deal with then. I'm an alcoholic and that was driving my W away...

My 2x4 was delivered at an AA meeting....

We all have issues, but a wise old man told once - "You die when you stop asking, how can I be a better man."

I did not mean to make you mad, but sometimes a 'cyber slap' can help <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

Keep us posted and God bless..

Gib

Long night again - I don't think she said more then five words to me from 8:00 on.. she just went into our bedroom and shut the door. Is this normal? the artic freeze I mean? I don't want her to feel like a prisoner in her own home.. My daughter gave me a hug today and told me that she was happy that I was back in the house and that mommy and me were not fighting any more..What are my daughters going to feel and think when we get divorced and I move out again? They are not going to understand.
Maybe I shouldn't have moved back in - as far as the A. goes Yes it was the right thing to do. It did work the A. ended, but now all she wants is a divorce. She says we can't go back to what we had. I didn't talk about the A or us with her I just let her talk.
She started writing up the paper work for the Divorce today.

LC,

LEt her take her leave of the family. Don't U move out. You are not the one having the A right? Then don't leave your family.

She refuses, kick her out. She says she doesn't have anywhere to go, call someone and arrange for them to take her.

She is stringing you along and wants you to enable the A. Do you want to do that?

L.

Funny you should say that - My wife told me all contact with Om was off that he doesn't want anything to do with her because of me.. So my wife is now angry with me because I ended this happy stage in her life.
Yesterday when I came home she didn't know I was there and I over heard her call him. ( she got his voice mail ) I walked into the room she looked at me and said I'll talk to you later and hung up. Then she got angry with me because I had caught her again.. I didn't even say anything to her about it. She started a fight with me I walked away .. this went on for three or four times. Finally I just sat and listened to her. She kept getting an inch from my face and saying comments to hurt me. " I have lied to you so many times and you never even knew" and " it doesn't matter about it being our neighbor it would have been any man that showed me affection, so leave him alone." and the one that hurt most of all " I hate you and never want to be near you or touch you again that she can't wait for the divorce to go thru." She said all of this in front of our children and the look on her face was sheer joy of seeing how her words hurt. The sarcasm in her voice .. she has never in the ten years we've been together been like this. I tried not to show any emotion. I tried to show that what she said didn't hurt.. she knows it did. I know alot of what happened in our marriage was my fault. I should have showed her I loved her more and I shouldn't have taken her for granted. I am sorry for being so blind..
I have told her I love her and want to work it out .. she says when I say that it makes her sick. I've decided to do the 180 thing.. I'm not going to tell her I love her. I'm not going to talk about him or us. I'm just going to start rebuilding my life and hopefully befor the divorce goes thru she'll see that I do love her.

stop already with the mia copas. your W is acting like a vicious @[censored] hole and you're making excuses for her behavior? it's comendable that you're willing to accept responsability for your faults and actionsd but stop trying to be a saint.

if you don't start respecting yourself and proporting yourself with the expectation that people must treat you with that self same respect, respect that you deserve, then why would your W feel the need to?

you're handling things well given the situation. if you stay calm and disconect emotionally then her acts and the things that she says will loose their power to hurt you. she will continue to cheat and throw the affair in your face. that is who she is right now so grow thick skin and get over it.

instead of obsessing about her...be with your children! forget her as much as you can. she is a cheat and will not ever again be the woman you once new. accept that and go on. while she may eventually evolve into some one you can love and who will love you....who she is a present is not lovable...not unless your a masachist!

until you can have a life with her again, make a new life of your own with your children and other firends who care about you.

coach

OK - questions I need to ask. I have been doing a poor job at plan A - But I'm trying to be better at it. So how am I supposed to over come these problems?

1. She is talking about divorce and still wanting to file. She wants to talk about everything. I am trying not to talk with her about " us " or the A. SO how do I work around this? I do not want the divorce. If I don't speak with her about it ( we are doing our own ) she will go and get a lawyer and file that way. I'll lose everything. I can not afford a lawyer. She is serious and not just threatning.

2. She will not let me meet any of her needs. She doesn't talk with me. If I try to create small talk she tells me she hates me to go away. She won't let me do anything around the house. I try and she'll cut me off with don't do that or go away. The only need I quess I've been able to meet is paying some bills.

3. If I show independent behavior then it is a LB. She treats me like I'm a renter or a room mate and not her husband. She says she doesn't feel married.

4. She is convinced that no matter what we can not save our marriage and even if we goto MC. It will not matter. She said the only way she will go is if the court orders it. She said that she feels that we can not get back what we had. That it is too late. So how do I over come this?

5. She thinks that I'm trying to controll her. And from what some of my earlier post have been and what the 2x4 experience taught me .. I quess in a way I was. But I'm not anymore. I know she is going to do what she does and there is nothing I can do about it. So how do I show her that I'm not ? I know "SHE" hasn't broken off all contact with OM. He on the other hand keeps telling her to stop calling.. or so he says. She wants me to stay away from him and leave him alone.. and because at one point I told her that I wouldn't .. she thinks I'm using the A. to hold against her and controll her with it. I'm not, I haven't said anything to her about it in a couple of days.

So there are a couple of my questions I have .. any advice would be great. L&C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lost&Confussed:
<strong>OK - questions I need to ask.

1. She is talking about divorce and still wanting to file. She wants to talk about everything.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So let her talk. But be honest with how you are feeling. Let her know what makes you sad, angry, etc. when she talks about it. It is good you are trying to avoid the R (relationship) talk. That is a big LB for some WS. Become a really, really good listener. One that pays attention to what she has to say or isn't saying. Valid what she is saying. Often, women are looking for validation of the their feelings more than they are looking for answers on everything. Men usually try to solve problems. Avoid this at all cost but on the other hand, you have the right to ask how to make things better because you are soliciting her input.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> I am trying not to talk with her about " us " or the A. SO how do I work around this? I do not want the divorce. If I don't speak with her about it ( we are doing our own ) she will go and get a lawyer and file that way. I'll lose everything. I can not afford a lawyer. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How can she afford to get an attorney if you can't? How can you lose everything? At worst, isn't she entitled to 1/2 of the marital assets? If your WW does file, you really need to get representation.

What is her objection to reconcilation? Has she tried? Has she observed changes in you? If not, why? Maybe you need a different approach?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>2. She will not let me meet any of her needs. She doesn't talk with me. If I try to create small talk she tells me she hates me to go away. She won't let me do anything around the house. I try and she'll cut me off with don't do that or go away. The only need I quess I've been able to meet is paying some bills. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah-ha! So FS is a high priority need for her. That is good to know. That's one EN she has. Keep track. Have you started a journal yet? Might be a good idea to keep track of ideas, etc. I hated this part of my recovery efforts as well. I wanted to meet needs but I was stonewalled. It made me angry and then I would LB. What I was coached to do was to find things that I could do and work with that a while. She needs to feel safe and comfortable with you again. She's not going to let you jump full-bore back into her life again. It's going to take a little time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>3. If I show independent behavior then it is a LB. She treats me like I'm a renter or a room mate and not her husband. She says she doesn't feel married.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Standard WS lines. Tough to hear but it is not uncommon friend. Even roommates have to cooperate to get things done. See what can be done to meet some of those needs. Surely she wouldn't stop you from cleaning up around the house or doing your own laundry. If she asks why you want to do these things, don't tell her because you are trying to pamper her. Tell her that you are taking responsibility for your home and yourself. Then ask if there is anything you can do for her. Don't pester her to give you some task to do for her. If she doesn't offer anything, then fine, just tell her thanks for thinking about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>4. She is convinced that no matter what we can not save our marriage and even if we goto MC. It will not matter. She said the only way she will go is if the court orders it. She said that she feels that we can not get back what we had. That it is too late. So how do I over come this? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, this is also standard thoughts of the WS. What can you do? You have to avoid 'teaching' your W for one thing. The most important thing you need to do is to show that are committed to making an effort at recovery and truly changing yourself. This isn't about trying to change your W at this point. It is all about you. And if she is still involved with OM, then these steps might help pull her away from that relationship.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>5. She thinks that I'm trying to controll her. And from what some of my earlier post have been and what the 2x4 experience taught me .. I quess in a way I was. But I'm not anymore. ...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, standard talk from the WS. Trying to lay all of the responsibility for the problems of the M on you. It is up to you to demonstrate that you are trying to change. I know this is not easy. I'm the same way. I'm more comfortable in my engineering mode, trying to control every outcome.

Look, if you've made these changes to yourself and tried to demonstrate that you know what her needs are and that you are trying to meet them and these actions still haven't pullen her away from the OM, then you may need to consider Plan B. Can you do this? However, a plan B is not a good option unless your W has observed good Plan A efforts, which start with you eliminating LB's.

It is good you are not talking about the A. In my case, I have not been able to avoid it because of the situation my W wants to put our kids in. Two of the three OM were illegal immigrants and there were other legal issues. But it sounds like you are making an effort to avoid talking about the past. That's terrific.

You don't need to keep in touch with OM. You need to confront him, give him a letter to let him know that you are committed to working on the your marriage but don't do anything to threaten him that would send your W running to protect him. There are good examples of these sorts of letters at various places on the forum. One letter should be enough.

There are a couple of my answers to your couple of questions. I don't have all of the answers. I'm not a professional, just someone that has tried to learn from the Harley's and other's on this forum. Have you tried calling Dr. Harley on Monday or Thursday. See the Radio link above. He is so nice to talk with. A real advicate for you and he can put things in persepective very quickly. It is good to get the information from the 'horses' mouth as it were. Seek out the advice of other MB professionals too. Good luck.

HoFS

L&C,
i'm in the office right now and don't have a lot of time, yet, feel compelled to respond to your anguish.

please know that you are doing very well. could you be doing better? of course but then so could we all. the thing is that you're listening to what your W is saying but not really hearing her. she is in pain just as you are and probably can't figure a way out. and so she is lashing out in the most hurtful and inappropriate way possible.

sure she is ranting right now and threatening all kinds of evil doom but so what? you are seing the worst she has to give and if you can just adjust to it then you will have weathered this storm and willl never again have any fear of what havoc she may bring down upon you.

when she is making her irrational demands listen to her with courtesy and and understand that she thinks she means what she's saying. respond if you must with words like, "i'm sorry you feel this way." "i'm sure that from your point of view your remarks are very valid." "i'm so sorry that it's come to this." in other words, respond but don't commit to anything accept being there to listen and help and being non-confrontational.

the non-confrontational part will make her even crazier by the way, but to bad. look, if she has no one to argue with it's pretty hard to have a fight!

when i said not to talk about the relationship i meant that you shouldn't initiate any discussion in that direction. if she does, just respond with words to the effect that you're so sorry for her anger and bad feelings but you would prefer to see some of that anger abate before continuing any serious discussions. NON_COMITAL! and then go about your business in a kind and generous way.

as for divorce papers, let her get an attorney...if you can't afford one go to legal aid.

i think that she is just trying to push your buttons with divorce talk any way. other wise she would have had you served while you were out of the house...the most vulnerable time for you.

just stay cool! keep your wits about you and don't argue with her. if you feel yourself loosing it...run out of the house for a while.

good luck.
coach

OK - have to report a break in the Fog bank.. My wife iniated talk about "us", specifically the Divorce. I took a deep breath and told her that if that is what she wanted then I would give her a Divorce but that I loved her and would rather fix our marriage. But that I can not keep her from doing what she wants .. then I Shut up.. She started talking about our relationship and how she couldn't understand how I wanted to fix things. I didn't say anything , she kept on and said " DO you really think this is what I want " I said I didn't know .. she said no it isn't - Our conversation was interrupted by our four year old .. I think it was good timing. The last thing she said was that.. so she'll at least think about it. ( I hope ) So at least I know a little on how she is feeling. Baby step Baby step... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> L&C
(sorry had to share it with someone)

<small>[ October 03, 2003, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: Lost&Confussed ]</small>

I want to apologize for my absence. My life has been in disarray since Isabel.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1. She is talking about divorce and still wanting to file. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you are missing out on the key thing that Cerri told you. You cannot trust ANYTHING that your W is saying. All of it is geared solely towards keeping the source of her addiction - OM - in the picture. I see multiple references from you about what your W is saying and doing. That's fine, it's nice to know, and important to share that. I fear you are taking too much of it to heart. Her prime motivation during times when she is feeling withdrawal symptoms from OM (AND SHE WILL) is to renew contact and get him back into the picture.

Everything she says, does, and thinks right now is in an attempt to justify what she did and to continue her cake-eating. DON'T BUY INTO IT.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She wants to talk about everything.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I say you should engage in any conversation in which you are able to avoid LBs. You need honesty in the picture, period.

BTW, in order to keep from going backward you must get over this idea that many BSs cling to - the idea that you need to just 'trust her'. Trust is earned and she needs to be accountable.

<small>[ October 03, 2003, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>