RJP,

I am not at all comfortable with the plan you have to kick your wife out. That will do one thing.....alienate your wife......force this into the courts. Don't do it.

I have a suggestion.....it won't be exactly what you want. It won't be exactly what she wants. But it is doable and good for the kids. You do something called "nesting". That's where the kids stay in the nest...home....and the two of you rotate weeks of being there or away. She can spend her weeks away with her parents, and hopefully, you can find an alternative too. The time can be changed to suit. I think you are within your rights to ask that the kids be protected from the affair and that you'll agree to this arrangement as long as she doesn't see OM while she is at home with them.

You cannot do what you've planned to do....probably not legally. If you bring attorneys into this....it will escalate so avoid that if possible. Think outside of the box. If you have to leave.....make sure you have some kind of legal contract that she signs saying she cannot say you abandoned her or the marriage....there may be some way to do that.

Good luck.

Mmmmm..... I'm not liking the discussion asking her to move out or the helping her to do so. To me that feels too much like not caring whether she is in the home or not.... a very different message than the, "this is too painful for me to bear so I need to not see or speak to you..." And, PlB should be quick and one swoop, not a threat and not a joint decision.

You know what I would do? I would call Dr. Harley on the show on Thursday. 1pm our time.... click the radio link above for the local number.

Yeah, I know you are working with Jenn.... and I do this professionally too.... but it's never a bad idea to get input from the person who put this all together. Here's my tips for calling (as a loooong time listener <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Call right before 1pm to make sure you get in and get good attention. Make sure he knows how much you are struggling emotionally and the things you have tried so far. If he suggests something that won't work for you or that you think is iffy, don't be afraid to voice your concern. Particularly when it comes to the kids and staying in your home.

If you have never tuned in you can't know that Bill and Joyce are the most caring people you can hope to encounter. They are on your side and their goal is to make sure that you and the kids suffer as little as possible.

C

Alright look, I'm not alternating in and out of the house, that is not going to happen. And a family intervention type of thing will only serve to embarrass her more than she already feels about this, not that it isn't justified. I don't see any other way than telling her it is time to go, I just can't watch this going on anymore.

We had a pretty good nihgt last night! She came down to the computer while I was composing a response and sat on my lap (the most physical contact we've had in a month now) and started to tease me about MB being a cult. We talked and laughed for about two hours. Then when we went to bed, I put my arm around her to hold her (fully expecting her to bat my arm away) and she kind of snuggled in a little bit to get comfy and just let me hold her. I miss my wife so much, I just want this to be over.

I payed special attention to the conversation, as I was directed to do by somebody here, and the message I picked up was that she was afraid that if she comes back and makes her self vaulnerable to me again that we'll be going thru this in another 2 years, or 10 years, or when she's 50. She keeps telling me that this is just the way we are. She has a point, in the past we have had MORE than out share of ups and downs, and when we're down it's really bad in our house. Then one of us express' how tired we are of all this, a bunch of promises are made, a week and a half of good effort, then everything goes back to the way it was. That cycle has been repeating for 5 years. She is at the end of her rope with our M, that is no excuse for the A, but I think that is preventing her from wanting to give us a shot (at least that is what prevents her when she is not in the fog). How do I convince her that I made perminate changes? I keep tlling her that the differance this time is that now I have the tools to do this right, I didn't have that before. She says it doesn't matter anymore. Women, tell me what to do here.

<small>[ September 24, 2003, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: RJP ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by RJP:
<strong>Women, tell me what to do here.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><Mike dons summer frock to go under cover, speaks in high pitched voice>

Well....time is the only ingredient for that. That is why it is unfortunate that the affair is so intrusive....you probably don't have the ability to Plan A for a reasonable period to leave the impression of a change. My W used to say "what about when things go back to normal"...so you have to commit to yourself to change behavior, whatever than may be. For instance, I make the bed every morning, that is a constant reminder of my changing to her (after 15 years of letting her do it).

Anyway, on the other issues....I disagree with the advice to call into the radio show. I think if you are working with Jenn than place your faith with her. Mixing and matching philosophies and advice is not productive, in my estimation. People than combine a hodgepodge of Divorce-busting and MB and some other MC's advice usually have a tougher road. And Jenn has more of an insight than Dr. Harley will get in a quick phone call.

As has been pointed out by people with a better MB resume than mine, the transition to Plan B should be as loving and LB-free as possible. It will be the last taste in her mouth for awhile, so you don't want it to be done with anger. Talk to Jenn.

RJP:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then one of us express' how tired we are of all this, a bunch of promises are made, a week and a half of good effort, then everything goes back to the way it was. That cycle has been repeating for 5 years. She is at the end of her rope with our M, that is no excuse for the A, but I think that is preventing her from wanting to give us a shot (at least that is what prevents her when she is not in the fog). How do I convince her that I made perminate changes?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, let's see here. Your pattern for changing is behaving for 10 days before self-destructing. You've done this for the last five years. And your D-day was this Labor Day. So now you've made it a whole 17 days without melting down---but you're ready to implement a harsh Plan B and boot her out of the house---and you want her to come back to you because you've made "permanent changes".

To convince her, you certainly need more time. From her point of view, implementing Plan B now will completely convince her that you are a fraud, a liar, and someone who she is better off without. Even with that terrific letter, it's going to be like a baseball bat in her teeth.

Jen has got you on the "New Years Plan" for a variety of reasons (I believe). From what I see, three months is a bare minimum to establish this track record of new behavior with your wife. And you need to do a good job with it during this time---you really need to eliminate lovebusters and not push on her. Christmas time will be very difficult for everyone involved (a likely scenario), and a transition to Plan B a couple weeks into January is a reasonable plan given your situation.

My advice to you would be to suck it up and do what you need to do to get through this period. That includes:

1. Getting on antidepressants to control your emotional responses.

2. Having as many sessions as you need with Jenn or Steve during this time.

3. Finding a close (same sex) friend that you can confide in WHO WILL SUPPORT YOU in recovering your marriage. Don't get someone who will encourage you to dump your wife.

4. Letting your wife (honestly, without love busting) know that this hurts you, and give her specific suggestions for eliminating specific triggers in order that you "last" longer in Plan A. In my case, my wife agreed that the OM would not call our house, and she would not call him unless I was gone. Not a huge concession, but it did have a positive impact on how long I could do Plan A.

I'm with Mike on calling Harley. If you take it for what it is (a talk show where you're giving him very limited information and he's going to give you a snippet of advice), it'll be OK. It is not a substitute for real counseling, and if he gave you some piece of advice that went completely counter to what Jenn was suggesting, then I'd immediately get on the phone and discuss it with her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is at the end of her rope with our marriage...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's a good observation. Given that, how can you entice her back so that she has hope? What do you think your Plan B will do to that rope right now? (think scissors...). I think that Plan B will be in your future---but to go into it early will be a crapshoot as far as your marriage is concerned, and even if she does come back, you're going to have to do some serious groundwork anyway (and face potential 'relapses').

Ok, I have a very important question here. In cases like this, where one spouse is having an A and the other is trying to repair the M, should Plan A / B be expalained to the WS? She has asked a couple times why I was doing the things I'm doing. Like stepping up the housework, not getting angry, trying to meet her needs, telling family, so on. Do I tell her that this is a plan to end the A and get her to re-commit? If I kick her out, she will certainly think I'm being vengeful, do I explain this to her? Or is it better to act covertly? I'm fearing that if she knows this is a well documented plan, she will resist on the basis that I'm not acting genuinly, but rather being told what to do... as I've mentioned earlier, she already sort of views MB as cult-ish (or so she says when she is giving me a hard time about it). What is a guy to do...!?!?!?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is a guy to do...!?!?!? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Listen to your counselor... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I would suggest that you let her know that you've read this MB stuff and you've had your eyes opened as to how you've helped hurt this marriage. Let her know that you're going to work in counseling to put it right---you can even use the phraseology "establish a consistent track record of good marital behavior with you". You realize it's going to take time to show her that this isn't a fad, but that you strongly believe in your marriage and are willing to do the work. You can also indicate to her that you'd like to have her talk to Jenn, in order to provide feedback to her on how you are doing in this program (yeah, feedback... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). If at any time your wife says something condescending, just close it with an "I really love you..." and let it drop.

As to the specifics of Plan A and Plan B, as well as timing---keep that to yourself.

As far as this being "geniune" rather than "planned"---it's both. It certainly is not spontaneous. You have work to do---a job to create love. But if you do this effectively, it'll be better than any "spontaneous" love you and your wife could come up with---because this is based in reality and a set of good behaviors that you will continue to refine for your life.

Jenn didn't have me on the Jan. 1 plan, that was my idea. She just said to start thinking about deadlines. Ok, I can see the point that I'm maybe accelerating things a little here. I'd love to give this more time, but this is going on right in front of my face. She is so smug and cocky about going over there then coming home at 3 or 4 am like it's no big deal. She acts like we are room mates, not married or even an item. I was fine dealing with that, but when she started letting our son down, choosing to go to the OM rather than stay and be with our family, I started to really have ahard time dealing with the anger. The kids didn't ask for this, they didn't do anything to ruin the marriage, they didn't get up one day and say "...well, it's time for mommy to have an A and tear apart the family."

The only reason I thought that it was time for plan B is that I'm finding it hard to keep cool around her and her actions (both with me and the kids) are making so many Love Bank withdrawals that I don't think it is going to take long for the Love Bank to go bust. My resent level is getting to the point where I find myself wondering if she worth the pain and effort. I love my wife and want to be with her forever, but how could I want to be with somone who is so willfully hurting me and the kids?

From all my research, I've come to the following conclusions regarding Plan B (MB veterans sure can set me straight on this if I'm off base here): The point of moving to plan B is to limit the pain, resentment from biulding, and releive me from having to deal with the A on a day in, day out basis. It will me VERY difficult for us to recover if I have lost all my love for her and have replaced it with a fiery, raging resent for her and her actions. Also, if we move to plan B and she still wants to end it, I WILL have lost all my love for her and thus suffer much less depression when the D takes place, having known that I did everything possible to save the M. I've got two little boys to worry about also, they need one of their parents holding it together. I'm having a hard time doing it when she is flaunting the A in my face.

Anyway, the reason I thought it may be time to move to Plan B is that I LOVE MY WIFE. I want to stay in love with her, but I think she is the type of woman ... scratch that, I KNOW she is the type of woman who will have to let this run it's course and get it out of her system. No amount of telling her anything will make her understand. The problem is that I don't know if I can hold on long enogh for this to run it's course on it's own. My love for her is taking a masive hit every weekend when she is out all night. Then all I get is the cold shoulder for the rest of the week. I've told time and again how much this hurts, she doesn't care. She is only thinkng of herself right now and isn't seeing (or caring) what it is doing to anybody else. I don't even think she sees what this is doing to her ... well of course she doesn't, who would knowingly or willingly do this to themselves..!?!?!?

Oh, and by the way, I've been doing this for 24 DAYS not 17. I just don't know how much longer I can hold out.

RJP,

Let me reassure you that I went through a very similar situation under the guidance of Steve Harley. My kids were 6 and 2 when this started. I have complete sympathy for everything you're feeling---been there, done that, have the scars to prove it.

You are correct about Plan B. But Plan B is made much more effective by a quality Plan A---it's one of the defining characteristics of Harley's model for dealing with affairs that is much different than most other (less successful) counselors. They call an affair a "rollercoaster", and it appears to me that you're going up and down---just like everyone else who's ridden this.

I really suggest that you get on anti-depressants---it took me three months post D-day to do so, but I was very happy that I did.

Your wife is like a drug addict right now. She's going to be nice and sweet at times. And then totally self-absorbed at other times. Your kids are going to be hurt by this---although you may be able to minimize this. My wife would go off for weekends. It's not fun. It's OK to rage (just not in their direction). But the longer you can stick in Plan A mode (again, to establish the credibility with your wife), the better off your marriage will be. You will not be able to measure the effect of your plan A now (unless you're extremely fortunate and your wife ends the affair)---you will see this pay dividends after the affair ends. The affair will end---they all do (well, 99%). The choice your wife makes afterwords (move on, come back to marriage) will be strongly influenced by how you do for the next few months.

Plan A is hard. But I will tell you that in many ways, Plan B is harder still. And if you think Plan B is tough---wait until you hit recovery for the first few months---it's worse then either of those stages! But then it gets better, and often quickly as romantic love is restored. Your children are an excellent motivator for putting in the effort here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The only reason I thought that it was time for plan B is that I'm finding it hard to keep cool around her and her actions (both with me and the kids) are making so many Love Bank withdrawals that I don't think it is going to take long for the Love Bank to go bust. My resent level is getting to the point where I find myself wondering if she worth the pain and effort. I love my wife and want to be with her forever, but how could I want to be with somone who is so willfully hurting me and the kids? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, you want to minimize these drains from your lovebank any way you can. Imagining her as sick (which she is) may help you. Getting on anti-depressants will help. Asking her for help (limiting contact, not staying out, etc) can help. Dumping on a counselor or trusted friend can help. When you're truly near the point of "no more", then it's time for Plan B. I was in Plan A for almost 6 months, and I remember the up and down feeling for the first three months. I threatened Plan B (separation) and she quit the affair, but only for a couple weeks (forcing someone isn't effective, unfortuately). After that, I decided to drive for another three months before Plan B, and I did that more or less. It made a difference in our case, because when we were finally back together, my wife told me that without that Plan A effort, she would have never returned to the marriage. But I wouldn't have known that I was being effective at all---everything I did seemed hopeless.

Just trying to keep you in the game for as long as you can. This is your chance to influence things by your behaviors. Once you're to Plan B---you lose that advantage.

I think the Plan A/B analogy works like this:

Your marriage is a twin engine jet. One engine is sputtering or has stopped running altogether It has sprung a fuel leak, its fuel tank is dry, and it is siphoning over fuel from the remaining tank. The remaining engine is struggling to keep the plane in the air, to carry the weight of the plane, but also has to worry about when to cut off the fuel to the other engine before its own tank empties and the plane crashes. How od you decide? Is the leak minor or major? How much fuel does the remaining engine have left? Is there a chance that the sputtering engine will restart and carry it share of the load?

Harley used to say to me in counseling "how much fuel do you have left?". This was the mental picture I drew from that.

The best case scenario would be for you to find the strength to keep from LBing and get as much Plan A under your belt as possible. But you have to consider the above factors.

Mike:

I like the analogy, it makes sense to me. Ok, I think I'll try to keep plan A alive for awhile longer. I don't know how, but I'll try. I just talked to her on the phone and she sounds like she is in a good mood, so it ought to be a little easier today than others. But then again, weekdays have generally been easier as I'm only getting the cold shoulder. On weekends she gives me rage and smugness (is that a word...???). Also, she is much more well behaved on weekdays than on weekends. Maybe I'll just resign myself to the ffact that Fridays and Saturdays are just going to have to be heavily medicated days... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> By the way, I AM ON ANTI-D's. Have been since about a week after d-day. I'd be a flipp'n wreck right now if I wasn't. Also got some nice sleeping pills from my doc, so that I can actually get some rest. The combination of the two works wonders!!!

K makes a good point that you don't get to beat up your spouse on the way into PlB. And that's my fear with forcing her to leave.... it's a big time beating, particularly for a woman. He's also right that if you end up divorced you will most likely need to sell your house, so don't put holding onto that ahead of what you need to do to stay married. I once had a client that wouldn't go to PlB because she was afraid it would upset the dog.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Mike, ya look good in that dress... and it's scaring me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> I disagree though with not getting another opinion. I'm all for not mixing methods... Nothing makes me crazier than people who want to do PlA, a 180 and toss in a little I'm-too-codependent therapy...

But RJP you don't owe any loyalty to Jenn (or Steve or me or any other professional) you owe your loyalty to yourself, your wife and your marriage. And if you want to get another insight into what you are doing or how to do it then I would do so. In this case, it's another opinion in the same family of thought (no pun intended <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

I often send mentees and clients to the radio show for another POV. And I tell them just what K said....it's a call in show... keep that in mind. I'd say about 25% of the time they get different adviced from Bill and Joyce than they are getting from me. We talk about it, and consider how it works with what we are doing. I have emailed Dr. H about some of those situations where we disagree and get more input.... the thing is..... two heads working the same concepts are often better than one. We all have our biases and wisdom.... working together keeps our biases in check and increases the wisdom available. It's really the idea behind this board only instead of asking amateurs for their input it's asking the person who designed the system.

I would encourage you to call and then to talk with Jenn about any questions, concerns or discrepancies you come up with. No two professionals in the marriage saving industry are going to agree on every point, but if we listen to each other and learn from each other the couples who come to us for help stand a better chance of getting the best there is to offer.

C

rjp, i really liked your plan b letter. there was a particular line in it, that i'd love to use in the one to my husband. would you mind to email it to me. i understand not wanting to post it. i am also going to try to plan a a bit longer, but i want to be ready. i hope you will take this as a compliment rather than a try for plagarism!!

<small>[ September 30, 2003, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: aimee2 ]</small>