Oh, by the way, we had pretty much agreed on the layout months ago. But knowing her, the materials would show up on the truck and she would decide to throw out the whole design and start all over. I was just asking, and I think I know now <ducking, waiting for cyber 2x4 to come flying by at head level> that I get to make an executive decision to use a previously agreed to design at this point.

Ok, taking this one day at a time. I just called over to the in-laws to talk to my kids. I'm not even sure who answered the phone, I just asked for my 4 yo. That was it, no conversations about her weekend, my weekend, us, A, or anything. I talked to my 4 yo for about 10 min, then asked for my other kid. 4 yo said he was taking a nap, said good bye and hung up. Usually I'd wait for him to give W the phone then say good bye to her as well. Not this time.

One day at a time...

<small>[ October 14, 2003, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back ]</small>

Good. That's what I want to hear. In all cases of romantic love those feelings create an addiction of sorts. When it's your spouse that you have those feelings for it's a really good thing.
When there hasn't been the sorts of precautions necessary to keep from having those feelings for someone else it's a disaster.

So you will have the same sorts of feelings of withdrawal and loss and need to have contact with your wife that we talk about all the time in regards to the WS and the affair partner. The sypmptoms of w/d are the same.

As you focus on things to take care of you and your life it will start to feel less awful and even more importantly the remaining feelings of love that you have for your wife will be protected from the ravages of seeing the A up close and personal day in and day out.

So what kind of arrangement do you have for seein your kids?

And yes, sticking to the plan you agreed on for the basement is fine. She gave up the right to make last minute changes when she abandoned the marriage.

C

Well, nothing formal has changed as of yet. I think what I'll do is go pick them up and just wait on the step, as opposed to going in and being chummy with the family. I think, given the attitude of her folks, keeping things formal for now is probably best. Tomorrow will be tough. Our son has daycare and the W will probably be planning to spend the day at our house. Should I tell her that I don't want her in my house when I'm not there? Do you think there is anything wrong with her hanging out there when I'm gone? Does this fall along the lines of allowing her a buffer to adjust to her new lifestyle, holding the feelings of missing her house at bay so as to make it ok for her to stay gone? Or is it a good thing, keep reminding her of how much nicer life was in her house...instead of living under her parents watchful eye? I can see it both ways, however if a true divorce simulation is what she needs, I don't think she should be able to come and go as she pleases.

WMWB,

One thing I'd like to add....and actually it's cerri who brought this to my attention....so I can't take credit for it....is that most people move to Plan B with the idea that it will shock the BS into action. That the BS will suddenly realize what they are losing and end the affair. And it might...but the main purpose of this plan is about YOU...not how the WS will react to it. It's not about scaring the WS into running back to the marriage....but allowing the affair to fail...while YOU do not.

It requires a mind shift to be successful...focussing on those things that will protect you and keep the affair from hurting you or damaging the love you have left for your spouse. That's why no contact is so essential. Just like contact with the OP can set back recovery for the WS....contact with the WS during Plan B...sets back personal progress and healing for the BS. Plan B gives you a cushion, sense of peace, environment for healing because the affair is out of sight...and as much as possible...out of mind. It requires detachment from the overwhelming pain caused by wondering about the actions and thoughts of the WS and refocuses energy inwardly where change and growth are possible. WS in a fog are not in growth mode (so plan B is not about them)...but by using this time for introspection and positive change....it will only make you more attractive when fantasyland blows up in their faces and there you are with class, poise and confidence in the face of this debacle. It's about taking the high road and feeling good about the fact that you can. It's all about you.

WMWB,
Hi, here's my suggestion:
Send her a note or an email or a fax, however you can do it with no contact, that you don't want her going into the house while you are not there. That's how I would interpret Plan B and No Contact.
She will then have to figure out what she's going to do while your child is in daycare.
And don't go feeling like a brute about this boundary. There are places she would go if there was nobody she knew in the neighborhood. (She could stroll the shopping malls, sit and have coffee, visit the library and sit at the tables there reading, go to the hairdresser, see a film, any number of things.)
If she violates your wishes and lets herself into the house anyway, well, if you don't have a restraining order against that, make no contact after the fact. Just stay dark.
It's not your responsibility to ease her transition out of the marriage. Anyone can see that you are fighting for your marriage.
Stick with the Plan and good luck.

<small>[ October 14, 2003, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Bellevue ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Want My Wife Back:
<strong>Tomorrow will be tough. Our son has daycare and the W will probably be planning to spend the day at our house. Should I tell her that I don't want her in my house when I'm not there? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll be interrested to see what Cerri says to this.

I have often wished thet Steve or Dr. Harley would write a website article about the complexities of dealing with Plan B with kids and living arrangements. The problem is, people's legal rights get intertwined with the MB strategies....is she on the deed? What are her legal rights to access? All good questions.

Mike-
Her name doesn't appeat anywhere on the title or the closing papers. She is not attached to the loan in any way other than being married to me when we took out the mortgage. In Minnesota she has just as much right to the house as I do. I can't do anything short of a restraining order to keep her out. I think what I'll have to do is just tell her I don't want her there, but if she goes anyway I'll just have to stay quit about it. It isn't worth LBing over, so I'll just let her know that she doesn't live there anymore and I don't want her there, if she needs something we will have to make arraingments for her to get it.

Well, I would say that she has no business being in the house. She left and she took the kids. So what she wants is to be there and have the benefits of your home when it's convenient for her, but not any of the responsibility of being a committed partner to the marriage and the family.

In addition to that, it breaches the buffer zone. Now this is my weird little energy thing and not strict MB stuff.... it's grown out of that... so take it or leafve it as you see fit. But if the MB stated goal of PlB is to protect you by having no contact, then having her in your home and knowing that she has been there breaches that. Even if you are not there at the same time.

When you come home, you know she's been there. There's a feeling or a sense or a whatever that lingers in your home and it reconnects you to her. It doesn't allow you to detach and take care of you. It is contact in my opinion, she's in your private space.

Mike you are right, PlB with kids is just icky. I really try to get people to have a mediator for switching kids and for relaying messages. I have a couple of clients who are doing it that way and managing to maintain no contact. They seem to be doing better in terms of being protected than the people I see who have intermittent contact even if for a few minutes here and there.

And of course that intermittent contact doesn't do the BS any good in terms of appearing as an attractive alternative. Dropping kids and running just not all that Plan Aish.

C

Well, she didn't take the kids, not entirely. She did take them when she left initially because in terms of us sharing the kids, she started with them first. That was just part of the plan. I get them every night, she gets them every day, we alternate weekends.

I agree, she has no business being there, she moved out. I was actually thinking (in one of my rare vindictive moments) of boarding up ALL the windows on the lower level and changing the locks again. Just to see her reaction to it...I know, I know...not very plan Aish...I got it. But I do feel funny about her being there. She will certainly blame me for making it impossible for our son to go to preschool if I don't let her hang out at the house. Of course, she will do the same thing when I drop her car from the auto insurance as well.

Hence, another conundrum...

Is it better for me to just go along and pay some of this stuff so that my son can stay in preschool and continue along without any interuptions. Make it easier for her while she is up ther so that my 2 yo has a good time and isn't sitting in his carseat all day. Or do I leave those for her to deal with, let her worry about keeping our 2 yo entertained, worry about what she is going to do to keep herself busy for 3 hours. It will be hard on the kids for sure if I drop her car insurance and don't let her hang out at the house, even if it is her reponsibility. She will make this all my doing, and will be angrier than hell over it. Her folks will think I just being more of an a**hole and am just trying to hurt her, while hurting the kids in the process. Not that any of their opinions really matter right now, but that is how I see it being precieved by the public at large.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Want My Wife Back:
I think what I'll have to do is just tell her I don't want her there, but if she goes anyway I'll just have to stay quit about it. It isn't worth LBing over, so I'll just let her know that she doesn't live there anymore and I don't want her there, if she needs something we will have to make arraingments for her to get it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mmmmmm.... could I interject here? See there's a place between demanding that someone do (or not do) something.... and letting them walk all over you. That place is counter intuitive and it makes you vulnerable, but it is the only place from which we can build successful marriages. And that place begins with being honest in a way that is calm, courteous and respectful.

So what I'm seeing is the same polarization that I describe above, either you TELL her to stay out or you let her do what she wants. What if we did neither of those things?

What if instead, you sent her a message that says, "It is very painful for me to know that you are in the house during the day when I'm gone. I love you, I miss you, but this whole situation with OM and you being gone is the worst pain I've ever been through. I'm wondering if you would be willing to spend the time when 4yo is at preschool somewhere other than in the house? I'm not telling you what to do, and you can certainly choose whatever you want, I just wanted you to know that this hurts me very much and I'd prefer you weren't here."

That kind of a statement is entirely about you. It's an honest expression of your feelings and it's asking for what you want. But you are not TELLING her to do anything. You aren't threatening and you aren't ignoring the fact that she is doing something that hurts you.

C

Ok, that is a great thought. However, knowing my wife, please allow me to explain how I tink she will see a note of that nature:

weak and whinning

It is that simple. Maybe that is a disrespectful judgement of her, but that is how I see her looking at that note. She will say: "tough, it's my house too and there is nothing you can do about it." At that point she will continue to walk all over me.

Isn't all of plan B basically a series of demands anyway? I don't want contact with her, I WILL NOT pay her bills, it IS him or me, she CAN'T come home until she meets certain criteria, so on and so on ... It seems to me that setting this boundry and expecting her to respect it is totally keeping within the lines of the rest of Plan B. Not that I get to be rude to her, but she did walk out. This is my house now, she left. I don't see it being any different than if my nieghbor wanted to just hang out at my house while I was gone.

I agree, she has no business being there, she moved out. I was actually thinking (in one of my rare vindictive moments) of boarding up ALL the windows on the lower level and changing the locks again. Just to see her reaction to it...I know, I know...not very plan Aish...I got it.

<sigh> It is tempting isn't it? This is why we don't do what our instincts or emotions tell us is the right thing. Interesting that we "get" that when it's something vindictive, but not when it's something "nice" and we are enabling. Hmmmmm..... I need to think on that one.....

She will certainly blame me for making it impossible for our son to go to preschool if I don't let her hang out at the house. Of course, she will do the same thing when I drop her car from the auto insurance as well.

Ok, but you're not going to let or not let her, you're going to tell her how you feel and let her decide. I would hope she would guilted into finding somewhere else to go. Anyway, where are her parents in relationship to the preschool? The TC is not that big, it can't be that far.

Is it better for me to just go along and pay some of this stuff so that my son can stay in preschool and continue along without any interuptions.

Is she working? I would pay half the preschool tuition. This is for the 4yo right? And then she has the little one?

Make it easier for her while she is up ther so that my 2 yo has a good time and isn't sitting in his carseat all day. Or do I leave those for her to deal with, let her worry about keeping our 2 yo entertained, worry about what she is going to do to keep herself busy for 3 hours.

Let her worry about it. If she doesn't want to be in the marriage, then she can't expect that you will meet the need for FC and worry about how she is dealing with the little one during the day. Heck, let her hang out with OM... that oughta burst the fantasy bubble in a hurry.

It will be hard on the kids for sure if I drop her car insurance and don't let her hang out at the house, even if it is her reponsibility.

Yes it will. But RJ, keep your eye on the big picture, it will be immeasurably harder on the kids if their home is permanently destroyed. A little discomfort of scrimping and not getting to play with the familiar toys doesn't even come close to living the rest of their lives with their parents divorced.

She will make this all my doing, and will be angrier than hell over it. Her folks will think I just being more of an a**hole and am just trying to hurt her, while hurting the kids in the process. Not that any of their opinions really matter right now, but that is how I see it being precieved by the public at large.

It's not the public at large. It's your wife and her desire to protect the affair, and her parents because unfortunately that's what parents do.... the rest of the world will see it eventually.

C

I suppose you could say that PlB is a series of demands. I like to think of it as boundaries and setting the conditions under which the M can continue.... and a threesome ain't one of them!! LOL

I don't care if she sees it as weak and whining. I don't much care how she feels about most things, as long as you are doing the right stuff. And part of the right stuff is acting in that center counter intuitive place. If your marriage (any marriage) is going to be succesful there needs to be an internal change in YOU... and it starts with being honest.

You could modify the statement to her to say that because you feel so hurt by all this you are getting a RO to keep her out of the house. But on what grounds?

As you say, in MN it's her house and she can come and go as she pleases. And as you know by changing the locks, she can (and probably will) get in anyway. So then your options are to either demand that she stay out... which we know she won't honor. Do nothing and let her walk on you. Or act in the center and tell her how you feel and ask for her consideration.

To me, asking as opposed to demanding has the highest chance of causing the least defensiveness and perhaps being honored.

Or you can get a RO. That's a demand with teeth, but I'd hate to see you have to do that.

C

Well, let me paint the picture for you. We live in Cambridge, her folks live in Maple Grove. That is 55 miles apart, straight down highway 65 (about 2 dozen stop lights). It takes, on a good day, and hour to get from A to B. Now, my son has preschool on M-W-F from 12:15 to 2:45. I drop the kids off at inlaws at about 7:00 am, at about 10:45 they get back in the car and head up to school. At 2:45 they sit for another hour on the way back to in-laws. at around 5:30 we head home again...another hour. Those poor kids!!! In their carseats for 4 HOURS a day!!!! That is why on those days when he has school, instead of me dropping them off, she would just come to our house and hang out there all day until I get home. Much easier on the kids, at my expense, emotionally speaking.

I agree with what you say about a little dicomfort for them now is much better than having their home perminatly destroyed. But you can see how she and her folks will look at this, right. I will come out looking like a raging a-hole and a bit of a baby in her eyes because this is just too painful...sniffle, sniffle, sniffle. I'm telling you, that is how she will look at it, and she won't feel guilted into creating all this discomfort for herself and the kids. Not that I am going to let her view of this dictate my actions, on the contrary. I think it is time for her to stop hanging around the house, but is it worth the hit I'm going to take in terms of it being a major LB.

Don't hang up the phone before you hear me out.

Maybe you should move out.

Or at least, put it to her that only one of you can have access to the house. If she wants it to be her, fine, you will get an apartment and make other arrangements. Hopefully she can keep up the household mortgage and living expenses (of course she can't). If she can't do that, then you should put the house up for sale and split the proceeds.

That may not be want you want to hear, but let's get realistic here. What are the scenarios here? The OM lives 2 doors away. If you don't reconcile, I assume you will have to sell it to give her her share of the asset. If you do reconcile -- who wants to live 2 doors from the OM?

Perhaps faced with that reality she will accept the boundary setting and stay out of the house.

RJ - Apparently, you haven't heard me say this before... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .... I DON'T CARE WHAT SHE AND HER PARENTS THINK OF IT. This is not about them, it's about protecting you. Because you are a danger to your marriage if you allow yourself to be in the path of getting hurt. They don't like it? So what??? No one seems to care if YOU like the things that are going on. I can guarantee that she and her parents are not agonizing over every move they make afraid that you will be upset.

Now granted, you are the one who wants to the save the marriage. (And, for the record, I'd like to shake parents like hers until their teeth rattle, but it goes against my extremely pacifist values) But, in order to save the marriage you need to be fearless about taking certain steps that seem to be the wrong thing to do. You need to not base your actions on how you think they will be perceived. If you do, you will fail.

Now having ranted on about all that, I think Mike's suggestion is very excellent. It's honest... in that it's about you and how you are feeling. It's a cooperative suggestion, taking both her feelings and yours into account. AND it gives nothing away... she's welcome to the house, but you are not going to pay for it.

Along with all this is the very real fact that OM lives down the street. So reconcile or not, you are not going to want to live there long term.

Very cool, Mike.

C

Ok, didn't we go over the whole "selling the house" thing yesterday? MAJOR financial penalties for that and the court will not take kindly to it if we head to a custody battle. The kids need their bedrooms. They need their friends in the nieghborhood. I'd make the sacrifice to live next to that motherf*cker for the next 20 years if it was the right thing for the kids, assuming of course that she never came back. If she comes back, the family will of course have to relocate. But we'd be doing it as a family, in my mind that is different. And Mike, let me get my own cyber 2x4 and get this point across as clearly as I can:

I AM NOT LEAVING MY HOUSE.

I busted my butt to get our family into a nice home with a nice yard with a nice quiet nieghborhood. With the exception of one bad apple, the nieghborhood is everything we were looking for. This is the kids home, this is my home. She walked out, she quit trying and gave up on our M. She can live with the consequences. She can go and find a dingy appartment to rent. She can be the one to hunt for change so she can go buy a soda. She can be the one who has to sit in that appartment trying to remember why this lifestyle was so much more attractive than our M, even with it's problems. And Mike, she can sit there all by herself on Christmas Eve in tears wondering why she did this. Not me. As I've said before; I will take MORE than half of the responsibility for the conditions that led our M to this point. But she and only she is responsible for ending it, for having the A, for ripping apart the kids family. She is the one that jumped ship, she is the one that is throwing t all away. Not me. Clear? Good.

<small>[ October 14, 2003, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back ]</small>

whew....weeeeeeeeelllll,

Now that we got THAT sorted out...let's work with it. Okay, so follow cerri's advice and remember that what she OR her parents think cannot rule your actions...and should not. How about suggesting that kids spend the school week with you to make things easier for them, and spend weekends up and grandmother and grandfathers with your wife until such time that this gets sorted out?....being prepared of course to adjust your work schedule to accomodate that. She may be willing for instance to make the trip down and spend after school with them until you get home...at places like the library or friends so that she can see them more often.

Sorry, double posted, my bad....<hanging my head in shame>

<small>[ October 14, 2003, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back ]</small>