[QUOTE]Originally posted by cerri:
[QB] But it is explicit in the PBL from SAA..... pp81{i]Until then I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. I will also not be able to help you out financially our friends Jane and Paul have agreed to help make arrangements for you to visit the children when you would like. I will not be here when you visit. If you want to communicate about the children or any other matter, it will need to be through Jane and Paul."[/i]

Gee, seems simple enough.

My point is, the problems arise when the WS simply refuses to address the no contact, won't leave the house, breaks in when the locks get changed, horns in on any and all social events, and drinks my damn coke. As to the financial support withdrawal threat, that seems to me to be a guarantee to force things to a legal basis...plus, isn't that sort of yesterday's Harlye philosophy, that Plan B was a withdrawal of ENs?

I do like your point about people resorting to legal remedies (or nations resorting to war, for that matter) when moral dilemmas become too complex and frustrating. When people with marital problems shop around to friends for advice, it is the rare friend that counsels patience or a change in YOUR behavior....most join in verbally kicking the other spouse or providing advice for legal maneuvering.

You can't save your marriage and prepare to win a divorce at the same time....you will only fail at both.

Mike, K, Cerri-

Good points. Give me tonight to sit and ponder this a little. I deffinatly want to save the M, nothing else seems to matter much after that. I'm sure I'll ned help sorting this out, as I get terribly conficted when left alone with my thoughts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ... So I'll post tomorrow (or later tonight) with questions and/or a plan and see what ya'll think.

Anyway, time for me to go home, later!...and thanks for helping me get thru the day today <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

sorry & i know that nobody is going to want to hear what i have to say but the h#ll with it.

his W hit hit him for G-D sake! she has no right to do that for any reason ever and i'm sick of hearing people on this board apologize for her.

she has behaved with all the civility and manners of attila the hun from the very begining and this time she has stepped over the line.

i'm would like some people to finally step up here and tell this poor man that G-D will not damn him for getting rid of what he must come to realize is an abusive and deporable excuse for a W. whatever and who ever she once was, today we all know what she is...and it isn't real pretty! now she finally crossed the line with pysical violence!

if it were a man who hit his W, then people around here would be lined up telling her to run for cover. yet, he called the police and he's be criticized for his lack of sensativity?! where are people's heads around here? why would anyone at this point advise him to try and save this marriage?

this woman has proved herself to be nothing less then a violent createn of the worst kind. she has shown no sensativety or kindness of any sort. yet, people are still telling this man to save his marriage if he can? why? because he says that's what he wants?

sorry but this advice is beyond the pale...forget what his inclination is...it's the responsability of people who can see things objectively to advize this man to do what's best for he and his children at this point.

living with an abusive spouse is never right! violent people do not change! they just get more violent as things progress. it's enough...get a lawyer and get this wopman out of your life before it's to late. one of these days you may end up responding and then what?

coach

coach

That's what I mentioned on your other thread in a round about way.

I'd change the locks again. But this time, don't give her a key. She'll have to earn it by her behaviour.

Well Coach here's the thing. She did hit him and it's not ok. Losing one's temper and becoming violent is never alright. But had RJ been in a good PLB, this wouldn't have happened. I'm NOT saying this is his fault it's not, but if you are to help others dealing with infidelity you must realize that it is an addiction. The person having the affair is literally acting under the influence.

Now I have to disagree that violent people do not change. It's difficult I will grant you, but my husband is living proof that it is possible. He has done amazing things as have others I've known.

As for the kids, the best of the research out there shows that unless the home is exceptionally physically violent (we're talking hospitalization here) the children are always better off in an intact family. No matter how unhappy or conflicted the parents may be. Kids of divorced parents do significantly worse medically, academically, financially, relationally and in their careers. And the effects increase over time as these kids reach their 20's 30's and later.


why would anyone at this point advise him to try and save this marriage?

Because marriage is not about how you feel in the moment. It's about honoring a commitment even and especially when the going gets tough. It's about putting the future wellbeing of the children (and if you follow the research the way I do oneself) ahead of the hard times that exist in the present.

Is she acting badly? Of course she is. She's an addict. It has robbed her of her integritym her values and her ability to make good choices. Does that make her a bad person? Of course not. It makes her ill and in need of some tough love boundaries. It makes RJ in need of protection too, BTW.

I was once the WS. I know what it's like. I know where her mind is. It's not pretty. It's not fun. And it hurts like hell. But I wish every day of my life that my exH had had someone like me to guide him through this. Because I see the effects of divorce every day in my kids lives.

this woman has proved herself to be nothing less then a violent createn of the worst kind. she has shown no sensativety or kindness of any sort.

She is an addict.


yet, people are still telling this man to save his marriage if he can? why? because he says that's what he wants?

No because it is in the best interest of everyone involved. Including, believe it or not, you.

The day will surely come when RJ doesn't want to save his marriage and I will still be here begging him to do the right thing. To stay in PlB, to protect himself and to let time do what it can.

sorry but this advice is beyond the pale...forget what his inclination is...it's the responsability of people who can see things objectively to advize this man to do what's best for he and his children at this point.

Considering that I do this professionally, and I read everything I can on the topic, I would say that's exactly what we're doing.

C

I'm sorry but I draw the line with physical violence. I know too well from personal experience what its like to be slapped, kicked, scratched, punched by a WS enough to know that things don't get better with time when it comes to a person who resorts to domestic violence and that the violence will only escalate if it is not confronted in a serious way by getting the authorities involved.

I agree with coach that if WMWB was a woman and his WS was a man, there would have been much different kind of advice. Female violence can become just as deadly as male violence given an opportunity and an environment to flourish.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Want My Wife Back:
<strong>I deffinatly want to save the M, nothing else seems to matter much after that. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here's something to think about:

If you knew that moving out and executing a strong Plan B for 6 months would lead to a marital reconciliation, would you do it?

50 point followup:

If you knew that moving out and executing a strong Plan B would give you the [bi] BEST CHANCE [/bi] for a marital reconciliation, would you do it?

I'm not saying that violence is ok, it's not. But RJ's wife does not have a history of violence.
What I said is that this is no reason to call the woman names and to end the marriage. That there is far too much at stake her to react so strongly to this event.

She was acting out in a situation that escalated. And in a situation that shouldn't have been allowed to even get to that point. When there is an argument, there are TWO people who are being abusive. An argument is made up of demands, disrespect and loss of temper. All forms of abuse. And as you know, if you've taken any anger mgt courses, there is no line between physical and verbal abuse. You cannot have an argument with only one person love busting.

Man or woman, my advice would be the same.... and what it has been for some time. You need to be in PlB (NOT end the marriage) and you need to make sure that it is a real PlB with no contact. I would say exactly the same thing to a woman who was slapped. And I do every day.

If there is a history of anger problems I make anger mgt one of the conditions for coming home after the A. But if it is an isolated event secondary to the affair I take a more wait and see attitude. Violence under those conditions does not always escalate. And in fact rarely does.

A certain Witch that we all know and love spent a few hours in jail for slapping her hubby many years ago. And she's about as pacifist as they come, doesn't even kill bugs, I hear. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Violence, not ok. A slap during an argument over infidelity with no prior history of violence absolutely not a reason to end a marriage.

C

TMCM:

The real issue is the definition of "physical violence". Being provoked and slapping someone is different that going out and getting drunk and then applying a serious [censored]-whooping at home.

I'm a child beater at times (I have spanked my kids, sometimes in anger). Does it mean I have an issue. Yes. Does it mean that my kids would be better off out of the house with only supervised contact? I think not.

And I would actually give the same advice (I'm in the minority) with a woman getting "hit" by a man. If it's a rare occurence, and was provoked (or avoidable)---I would suggest that it be dealt with in a much different way than filing charges. There's a big difference between an isolated case of physical abuse and someone who is an abuser.

Hi Mike <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> What are you doing here at this hour?

What are we, in stereo????

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And K too! Don't you guys have marriages to build?? LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Ok, I disagree to a certain extent K. I don't think physical violence (or verbal for that matter) is ever excusable. And if it happened in my house I would be very upset. And then I'd say so (Honey, I'm not happy that you just hit the kid... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) and THEN I would ask for what the plan was to make sure it never happened again.

It's not that mistakes can't happen they can. But in a home where supposedly there are two people working toward the same goal there needs to be a way to make sure they don't move from mistake category to habit category.

You and I probably differ on whether spanking is ok. I spanked my older kids (22,20 and 18) my younger ones (12,10,8) virtually never and always regretted it terribly when I did. Having two litters of children that far apart gives me a perspective on what I would have changed and a chance to do so. I like the not spanking results and lifestyle much better, but that's just my preference.

But, back to the idea of violence in the home. I think we're in agreement that one time in a fit of upset does not a violent offender make.

C

Yeah, and I exaggerated my need to spank a little. I've only done it once when "angry" and that was it (didn't like losing control). Don't spank anymore---having our kids spaced 4 years apart is kind of similar to the "two litters" deal...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LOL.... I didn't say there wasn't a NEED to spank, or desire to do so might be a better term. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I think there are days that I maintain my pacifist nature only by hiding out somewhere. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

The problem is that this is not the only time that WMWB has been subjected to being slapped or hit by his WW and for this reason alone, his W does indeed classify as a violent offender.

There is also the issue that WMWB needs to feel secure in the knowledge that when he is away from home that no one will enter his house without his permission and ransack the place. If his WW keeps breaking into the house, eventually all his love for her will die and then he will no longer want the marriage.

If she really does have a history of this then it needs to be a condition of recovery when the A ends. But it's not a reason to end the marriage and write her off as hopeless.

I agree that there needs to be boundaries to do a better job of enforcing PlB.... we've been harping endlessly on that point forever. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C

I'm sorry if I have given the impression that I'm advocating divorce because that is NOT my intention. It is quite evident that WMWB still loves his WW very much otherwise he would not be willing to endure the difficult efforts to save the marriage. What I am advocating is that if she can't abide to stay in control of her emotions and to avoid physically striking back at him that he should get a TRO against her.

Cerri after me and my daughters moved away from our home, my XWW unsuccesfully tried to break into our apartment a number of times until I got a TRO against her and my neighbor let me borrowed her attack trained Rottweiler <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> to babysit our apartment while I was at work and my daughters at school. What a combo! [Although I still beleive that the Rottweiler was THE persuasive incentive for my X to avoid trying to break into our apartment afterwards] <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well, just for the record, she has a history of pysical violence only when provoked (by me) or extremely frustrated (at me or our argument of the moment). I've never seen her lose her cool around the kids or anybody elese. But I have driven her nutty (by either provoking her or by allowing a situation to escalate)to the point of her taking a poke at me. I don't ever see this escalating to anything more dangerous.

As far as wanting to save the M, of course that is my main goal. And, of course, that will require a good plan B; I'm working on that as we speak. What other plan do I need? I think I can project confidence and strength for the minute or so that I see her. Get some new clothes, a new haircut, ect... What else do you guys suggest?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>I spanked my older kids (22,20 and 18) my younger ones (12,10,8) virtually never and always regretted it terribly when I did. </strong>

I'm not a liberal when it comes to these sort of things, but I'm not sure spankings accomplish much. My oldest son would never need that sort of correction, he is like the perfect child. I have a rambunctious younger daughter that we could wake up with beatings every morning and it wouldn't do any good. Maybe the occasional swat on the butt to get their attention isn't a bad thing....we just don't do it. But I coach kids who are so disrespectful toward adults and other kids that I could see the case could be made.

I don't think that parent/child corporal punishment relates to physical violence in a marital relationship, though. I could never imagine physical violence between my wife and I no matter how bad things got.

wmwb -

I don't know enough about your wife to know if she's actaully dangerous or not, but your justifications of her actions (she only does it if you provoke her - of course she does it when she's provoked, when else would she do it?) sound disturbingly like those made by an abused spouse blaming him or herself for the violent behavior of their partner. Nobody provokes violence in another person, violence is a choice made by that individual. Once is MAYBE a mistake, more than that is a pattern. One that I certainly couldn't live with and one I wouldn't want my kids exposed to.