Look, you can think I'm covering for her in the general battered spouse fasion, but that is really not the case. She has only gotten to that point 2 or 3 times in the 5 yrs. I've known her. And, in those cases, I was pushing her pretty hard. You see, we have our ups and downs just like everybody else. When we are up, things are pretty good. But, when things are down, they are really bad. Our fights are usually little more than angry outbursts back and forth with disrespectful judgements sprinkled in just to keep it interesting. It has been a major problem in our marriage. It seems that we don't make enouh LB deposits in our good times to keep up with the massive withdrawals made during our fights. It is probably just as much me as her, so I don't want anyone to think I'm beating up on her here. We just don't really fight fair with each other, and when we do fight nothing ever gets resolved. Usually one of us just gives up. Anyway, it was usually when I was riding her pretty hard and not letting up when I could see her getting frusterated that she would snap and get physical. That's why I say it is probably as much my fault as hers. Does that make it ok, hell no. Would I feel justified if the tables were turned and I hit her?, hell no. But I can see my role in letting it get to that point, and I can see what I could do in preventing it from getting to that point.

cerri and all,...(cerri particularly); while i have great respect for your profesional ability i must respectfully disagree. with your anyalysis of this situation.

yes...i'm living proof that a marriage can be saved (and MB was an enormous help in getting US there) and further, while i do believe that a marriage should be saved (for many reasons that others may agree or disagre with), i draw the line at anything that resembles physical viloence...

and the fact that she is an addict should not make her actions excusable. people just simply don't have the right to hit other people! and frustration and anger are not acceptable excuses. not for men and NOT for woman either! talk about teaching children about right and wrong! my G-D!

i'm sorry but i can't think of to many things worse then violence in the home! it's beyond ugly!

and now i will disapear from this thread in that having stated my viewpoint seems to caused some misunderstandings.

coach

Coach:

I appreciate your giving me your honest opinion in this situation. It takes guts to go against the popular wisdom and I am thankful you are willing to do it. That is why I'm here, for support and wisdom. I don't trust myself to look at this objectivly or rationally.

I can see your point, and if I'm honest with myself, I'd probably give much the same advice to a friend in this situation. However, finding myself in the middle of this, my outlook is somewhat skewed. I want my wife back. I love her more than words could ever describe. It is important for the kids, it is important for her, it is important for me for us to hold this together. She is sick right now, under the influence of this drug. Yes, her behavior is causing me, and the kids, a great deal of pain and heartache. But I love her and I will be here for her until the day I leave this earth. I'm not saying that I won't get fed up someday and move on, that is a very real possibilty. But I've loved my W from the moment we made eye contact with each other and I made a commitment to myself, to her, and to God to stand by her thru thick and thin, better or worse, richer or poorer, sickness and in health, till death do us part. Period. I made the commitment and I meant it. Just because she has lost her way and is sick, doesn't give me reason to break my vows. This is exactly the time when those vows become paramount to our future hapiness. This is a test of my resolve, a test of my substance as a man, a test of my love for my wife. I will stand by her through this. I will do my best to put the pain aside and keep my focus. That doesn't mean I am going to let myself be trampled all over, on the contrary. I still need to protect myself and my kids from the pain of this. But I'm still here for her.

I spoke with a nieghbor of mine the other night who is a teacher and deals exclusivly with troubled kids with behavior disoreders. His dad is a clinical family psychologist with a Phd. behind his name. Needless to say, my nieghbor has a bit of a background to draw from. He explained what W is doing like this: It is classic self destructive behavior. There is nothing anybody can do for her right now. Anything anybody says will be interpreted by her as hostile and against her. She needs to let this run its course and hit rock bottom. When she does, I / we (friends and family) need to be there for her and offer her love and care and help every way we can on the road to recovery. In the mean time, I need to protect myself and teh kids from her actions. Of course he didn't know it, but he was describing to me plan B. He just came about it from his own experience. It was a pretty profound conversation I had with his W and him. I came away thinking at least they understood what ws going on and that they thought I was doing the right thing.

All I'm trying to say here is that, despite her actions and behavior here, I love her and will stand by her through this. It is a dark period in all of our lives. This is going to be harder on her than anybody in the long run, and I'm not going to abandon her when she needs me the most. I don't think I could forgive myself for that.

By the way, Coach, you are more than welcome to stick around and voice your opinion. I value all who want to give me their 2 cents worth. Thanks.

<small>[ October 21, 2003, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back ]</small>

Get a Rottweiler to babysit your house while you are at work and the kids are at school. A snarling doggie usually makes a very persuasive argument against trespassing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ October 21, 2003, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Coach,

I slapped my husband. He definitely provoked me. I wouldn't have done it under any other circumstances. I am strongly pacifistic in my beliefs. It was shortly after I found out about the A's and immediately after a new discovery. And after being verbally/emotionally abused for several days. Both of us escalated the exchange. Does that make me a violent offender? No of course not.

We all have our breaking points. Pushing someone to theirs doesn't mean we then get to stand back and blame them for what happened. Granted she should have found a way to get out of the situation BUT SO SHOULD HE. Both parties are at fault, and none of us was there to see what happened.

My personal belief is that everyone of us should take an anger mgt class. First at about age 8 and then again at 18 and then at about 30. None of us deals well with strong emotion particularly when it's anger. Losing our tempers is instinctual.

What she did was wrong. It's still no reason to call her names nor to end the marriage. Both of those solutions could be classified as angry outbursts on their own merit.

C

Well, in my experience, she can be a bigger b*tch than any snarling doggie. She scares them into submission. Ok, I'm just kidding. Sorry about the shot at my W there, I couldn't pass it up.

We have a pup, he is as passive as can be, but we do have one. I don't think it will be much of a problem anymore, her coming into the house that is. I think I'm going to change the locks again, but this time I'll tell her first. She will just have to schedule a time with me to get stuff out of the house if she needs to. And, if she goes and breaks another window, I might just have to get that TRO. We'll see.

<small>[ October 21, 2003, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back ]</small>

Sorry for the double post.

<small>[ October 21, 2003, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back ]</small>

Well, I had a good conversation with Jenn last night. She thought it was perfect that I called the cops on W after she slapped me. So, that made me feel a little better. She also thought that limited contact with W for purposes of dropping off the kids was fine as well. She thouht that I was doing pretty good. She liked the boundaries that I've set up and what I've done when they were challenged. So, take it for what it is worth.

Had a conversation with W about the kids and shared time with them. W wants t throw out the current agreement we have. She said she wants more nights with them. The conversation slid a little into us. I basically just restated that I love her and want to give her the world on q silver platter. That i couldn't do anything to change the past, but I can make sure the future will be differant. She sat there and listened, which is a change from her cinstanly interupting and sigh-ing the whole time. She seemed like she actually took what I was saying to heart. Who knows. We negotiated a little so that I still get the week nights with the kids. I've always done the bed time routine, and I think it is important for the kids to keep at least that much stability in their lives.

Very cool then. Did Jenn ride your tail about NO CONTACT????

When do you talk again?

C

Hey Cerri, no as a matter of fact she said it would be virtually impossible to avoid all contact. She said to limit it as much as possible, but some limited contact in regards to the boys was to be expected. She suggested to take on the projects to make myself a better person...i.e.: a better father, more physically fit, change in apperance, better employee at work, ect... That would redirect my focus off of WW and onto my life. She also said in cases like this, where OM lives so close, it will be virtually impossible to avoid the pain from knowing what she is up to with him. Again, just limit it as much a possible.

She really stressed that I should commit myself to hanging on to the M for at least 2 yrs. If W shows no change in that time, it might be time to let her go. But in that 2 yrs., I should do everything I can to make the marriage an atractive alternative and make myself a better person, not for her but for me and my kids. For the first time she said that there was a possibilty W would decide that even though A is over, what I did during A was to painful and she would rather just be alone. That made me a little nervous because thru this whole thing, all I've heard was her anger will be short lived and won't affect reconciliation. Anyway, that was the bulk of the conversation. We talk again in a month.

Cerri - I screwed up big time!!!

Ok, I know your stance on no contact, and I agree with you. I had a moment of weakness and caved in big time. Here's the deal: We agreed to exchange the kids at a nuetral spot half way between WW's place and our house on the day's our son has preschool, so that the kids would not have to log so much windshield time. The spot we agreed on was a Perkins restaurant which is about midway between her place and ours. We sat in the parking lot and talked for about 15 min., nothing important just shooting the breeze. Then I asked the kids if they were hungry and wanted to go in and eat, I also invited the W. She accepted and we had a rather nice family dinnner. No pressure, no relationship talk, just a nice dinner. Both her and I were in a good mood and we kept things light. This morning when i dropped the kids off, she just gave me this look, sort off saying all at the same time: "I love you, I miss you, I want to come home, but I'm afraid of being hurt again, I'm afraid of hurting you, and I'm afraid of my feelings for OM..." Now, be honest with me here, am I going off the deep end? Is this just wishful thinking on my part? I swear to God, that is what her look was saying to me.

What do i do from here? I'm trying to continue with plan B as much as possible. I asked her for her house keys, which she handed over to me with a promise that she wouldn't break any more windows. Also, when the kids called to say good night to her, I didn't linger on the phone and talk to her, I let her go right away when the kids were done. I feel like she is so close, what do I do here? I don't want to screw this up and I think I am.

Keep watching and distance. Let her come to you. She will when she's ready.

WMWB,

Doesn't sound like much of a screw up to me. If you're going to have contact....well this is the kind to have. So remember that. Plan B is NO CONTACT....BUT if you must have contact...use Plan A behavior....fill needs don't LB. I don't think you're imagining anything....family time is bound to give her some second thoughts assuming you keep it calm and don't LB. I'm pleased with the progress you're making. Just a reminder that this is a slow process chere....so settle in and get comfortable. I love Jenn's suggestions for things that will divert your attention and make you a better person. Good Luck.

Stay on course and be optimistic - no LB's and stay active. God bless!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Want My Wife Back:
<strong>What do i do from here? I'm trying to continue with plan B as much as possible. </strong>

No, actually, you are not. Daily relationship talks and family meals are not Plan B.

Ok, another question and possible screw-up by me...

Yesterday W called to ask if kids could sleep over last night due to them having a very busy day today. I said sure as long as I could take them to Dairy Queen after work. I went to get the kids after work and W said she needed to talk for a minute. She told me that she was pulling 4 yo out of pre-school and that she found a job so kids would need to go into day care. The cheapest day care she found would be about $1,000/month for both kids, or in otherwords it would cost each of us (W and I) about $500/month. W did math in her head and realized that after all her bills she'd have about $25 left over every month. That didn't include rent, so she'd have to stay at her folks house. I could tell she was VERY discouraged by this.

I took the kids to DQ but couldn't stop thinking about W the whole time. Couldn't stop thinking about the look earlier that morning, the dinner conversation the night before. When I dropped the boys off I asked to talk to her. I made one more plea for her to come home. I told her that I just wanted us to be a family again and that nothing would be the same as it was. Then I listened to her, I mean REALLY listened to her. She said that it didn't appear that I wanted her back when I was changing the locks or calling the cops on her. She didn't want to be going thru this 10 or 15 years from now, that was why we are doing this now, that she didn't think she could believe that things could change or would be different. I get the over all impression that she is afraid to to get hurt again, afraid to make herself vaulnerable again to the possible pain of neglect.

I keep getting the impression that there is a chance, that she is at least in her own heart giving us the possibilty of another chance. I asked her if I was getting the boy's tonight, she said yes because she was going to see if the nieghbor ladies want to go out tonight. I could tell that she was lying to me, I think she is going to OM's house tonight...and will probably spend the night. So, I expect she will be all foggy and crabby tomorrow when she comes to get the boys. I know that I shouldn't trust anything she says or does, but when the fog seems to be lifting a little she seesm like she is wavering and considering coming home to us. And, no contact is no contact, but I feel that if I can leave her with a good impression, I should.

Another question is on the subject of our anniversary: Our anniversary is on 11/11. I'm not sure what to do for the occasion. If we are in plan B, should I have no contact???, not acknowledge the anniversary? Do I get her a card and some flowers? Do I rent a tux and get her a gigantic engagment ring...go to her work...get down on one knee...ask her to marry me allover again...we could have a 1 year engagement then re-new our vows on our 4th anniversary?

Ok, is that last one going a little off the deep end???

<small>[ October 24, 2003, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back ]</small>

WMWB - I look at your post and can't stop thinking on how close our situations are a like. Then again I'm sure ALOT of peoples here are.

Not that I'm any kind of person to give advice here but ... IMO you should give it a little more time on plan B.. It seems from the things you say she is starting to miss you and miss the marriage.

As far as your Anniversary goes ohhh thats a rough one. I know what I would feel like and what I would want to do on that day. Good Luck and I hope someone else with better advice can help you with that one.

The MB mantra is always that Plan B is to save the depletion of the BS' lovebank. That is true.

When Harley first developed the theory, it was stated that it was to cut off the ENs met by the BS and force a decision. While that is not discussed anymore, I do not think the whole concept went out the door -- I think it was just shifted to a non-hostile explanation.

I think one of the benefits to Plan B is that the WW is cut off from ENs like financial and domestic support. Usually by this point ENS like affection and SF and conversation are being filled outside the marriage, but don't underestimate the value of the other ones.

I think by continually making it apparent that the door is open you are not forcing her off the fence. That should be stated in the Plan B letter -- that she is welcome back when contact is cut off with the OM and she wants to work on the marriage -- and that is it. And I think that, while you should always have your children's welfare first, you should not make any financial or logistical concessions which will make her single life any easier.

It would be great if she would move back in and committ to the marriage, but I think it is important that it is truly a free will decision, not one pleaded for by you (I believe that was your word).

Anyway, that is my take, maybe it is off base, but you really shopuld be saving these questions up for Jenn.....when is your next session?

I talk to Jenn again in a month or so. I just spoke with her on Tuesday, she thought I was doing great so far. I know that the decision to come back needs to be hers, and formed of free will. I just want her to know that I still care about her. I feel like (and she has mentioned) that the stuff I'm doing under plan B just make it seem like I no longer care about her and that I'm perfectly fine with her being out of my life. That is not the case, and I think to let her believe otherwise would be an LB (dishonesty) wouldn't it? While I'm doing ok with living my life on my own rightnow, I do still care a great deal about her. I love her and want her back more than anything. When I listen to what she says, I hear that she feels like I don't care if she comes back and that she is scared of the prospect of doing so. I think her feeling like I don't care about her probably contributed a lot to her turning outside the marriage for companionship. And if that is the case, shouldn't I do what I can to give her a clear look at the reality of this situation? Much like the prospect of D, where the reality is that she will be on her own as a part-time parent and will have to meet her own financial needs and so on; the reality of my feelings about this marriage are that I love her and want her back at all costs. I think she should know that in no uncertain terms.

Now, I realize that this does nothing to motivate her off the fence, but it is the truth. Does this come off as needy? I feel like apathy on my part will only do more harm than good.

<small>[ October 24, 2003, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back ]</small>

I think one of the reasons that a Plan B letter is a letter is so that the wayward spouse can refer back to it. Everything you've said is, or should have been, in the Plan B letter.

I feel like (and she has mentioned) that the stuff I'm doing under plan B just make it seem like I no longer care about her and that I'm perfectly fine with her being out of my life.

What stuff in particualr? One of the reasons for no contact in Plan B is that there is no "stuff" -- no lovebusting, no arguments, no fighting over the OM, no contact. The Plan B letter should spell out the reason for no contact -- to the extent she wants to ignore that reasoning or manipulate you through guilt, well, that is the fog talking. You aren't the one sleeping with someone else, how did you get to feel guilty here?

I tghink it is important to remember that while you say regularly you "want her back at any price" that really isn't true. You don't want her moving back in and continuing to carry on with the OM neighbor, or someone other guy, or spending all her time out drinking with her friends. You want her back as a loving spouse and wife and mother.

I don't mean to sound harsh with you, but it seems to me that everytime I've seen one of these situations fail, it has been because there was a wishy washy Plan B. You seem to be in a no mans land between Plan A and Plan B.