SCubed,

If you are waiting for an explanation that will "justify" her actions you will wait till H**l freezes over. That is not the point. The point is a question of love and more specifically YOURS for her.

Frankly, if yours can be erased so easily then you are probably right to simply divorce her. She is not worthy of you, nor do you deserve her efforts to try and make things right.

As for not using emotion in a crisis, you are NOT in a crisis now. You are not under threat now. You win no matter what, and while you think that is due to your skill and cunning, you are wrong.

You win no matter what, because you haven't lost anything whether she stays or goes, because she meant very little to you. That appears to be a sad fact. Sorry, it is true isn't it?

All I can say is I am glad you don't work in my corporation. I expect my employees to be, smart men, with an ability to function in crisis and under pressure with a cool and reasoned ability. But I also expect commitment, and that doesn't seem to strong in you.

Your W failed in her commitment, and it seems yours isn't much stronger, or you would understand there is nothing she can offer to justify what she did. BUT she may have something to offer that will make your future better, and it will very likely take you 6 months or more to determine this. This situation does not call for "logic" as you are thinking. It calls for "understanding" and aquisition of knowledge.

OH Well! No matter, you will do what you will do.

God Bless,

JL

Hello OlderandWiser,

OlderandWiser quote:

“What next? some very humble thoughts

I believe you disclosed your intention to divorce in the package. Until you come to a decision on what to do I suggest you go ahead with this. This is a boundary you laid down and to maintain your credibility it should be respected.

To avoid spread of any STD's you should also ensure the OMW is informed rapidly and it would be interesting to see if your wife were prepared to do this.

Maybe you should agree with your wife the plan to disclose the "whatever you call it" to the rest of your family and hers and maybe friends.

Maybe you should line up your ducks so that you win any upcoming custody battle.

** Important ** STD testing for everybody

Consider DNA testing for the kids”

I appreciate your thoughts and in fully intend to continue with my plans and schedule unless as I stated in my response to BryanP a miracle of some kind were to occur, which I consider highly doubtful.

It was interesting you would mention informing the unemployment statistic’s wife as I informed my “ww” that this was going to occur regardless of her any opinion she has on the topic (a package arrive for his wife tomorrow via the overpriced courier). I am very obviously in no mood to discuss or negotiate and issue with the “ww” and I feel she lost those rights by her conduct and lack of character.

The ww’s reaction to this only to ask what would it accomplish as she is never going to see him again. My response was to say that perhaps the “ww” may want to join him in his future “trailer park home” when his wife finishes with him and live happily ever after.

The DNA testing was undertaken 3 weeks ago in regard to the children the results were what I expected, completely mine.

All the ducks are and have been in a row otherwise I would not have proceeded. I am not a person who does not cover all visible aspects of a situation, however the recommendation was appreciated.

SC:

Since you have covered all visible aspects of the situation, have YOU uncovered any of the invisible aspects ?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> SC wrote: I ... had pretty much come to the conclusion that every ww was selfish, self-serving and deceptive. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Doh! What you don't seem to undertand is that the greatest deception is of themselves, and exposing the affair is sufficient shock to many of them to begin the process of understanding their own self-deception. Your wife seems to fall into this category, but it is too early to tell for sure.

As for the "selfish" and "self-serving" parts: You're not?

<small>[ October 13, 2003, 06:51 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

SC,

Thanks for the update. Just a few words here. Don't expect her to come up with a reason at this point. She is in the "fog", which I'm sure you have read about, if you are reading up on the MB site. Since she broke things off, she is now entering withdrawal. Until she has completely emerged from the fog, she will not have any answers that you will want to hear. I don't believe she honestly believes she was being selfish. She clearly had needs that weren't being met in your M. The A met those needs. You now have the opportunity of a lifetime: to fix your M. Don't scoff at that - some people would give anything for that second chance. It's right there in front of you.

I'm not saying it will be easy. Just being able to look at her again, without thinking about her with OM, will take some time. But with hard work, your M can be better than it was before.

Hang in there.

Misty

SC, it's good to see your update. I wish it had gone better for you, but I also think it could have gone a little worse.

As for her not having a reason, that's to be expected. In order for her to come up with a truthful reason she really has to look deep within herself and see the evil that has been portrayed. The hard part in this, she has to make herself completely and totally vulnerable, and that's not easy for anyone to do.

I am glad I have been able to help you see a different side to things. I see that you are moving forward very strong in your decisions. I would have to imagine that deep down you still love your wife, as I know love doesn't just disappear. Would you want to work on your marriage? Is counseling an option?

I've always had mixed feeling on counseling, but I will be the first to tell you that our counselor helped us a lot. She helped us to learn how to communicate better, and how to work together as a true team. She helped me to know what I needed to do - to open my closet, look the skeletons in the eyes and share the darkest side of what happened not only with myself but with my spouse as well. It was ever so difficult to see how truly awful I'd been, but it needed to be done. I opened myself up completely, completely and totally vulnerable to whatever he had to say or wanted to do. However, it was what was necessary to begin new.

In any event, whatever direction you decide to go now will be long and hard. The people at this forum are wonderful, and I urge you to continue to use their support. I will say this, if you and your wife do decide to really work hard together as a team to take apart this affair, understand it, and then use your knew knowledge as a foundation to rebuild your marriage together, the end result is truly worth the time and effort put into it.

I know it is hard to see now, but it can be done, even in this case. I was once that selfish WW, but I have come a long way since. It's all in if your wife choses to allow herself to open up and really work at this. Bottom line is, the ball is still now in your court.

I wish you all the best in the decisions you have to make. Take care.

S**3 -

To echo what TMCM said earlier, if you've set your heart against your STBXW, why are you posting on marriagebuilders? It is the OPINION of people here that divorce, particularly when obtained in hurt/anger/revenge, is harmful to ALL parties concerned. If you are set on divorcing, why not post to a divorce support forum?

Please understand that we are NOT trying to judge you. We don't know you particular circumstances; if we knew all the details, and even if we were trained pro-marriage counselors, (the vast majority of us posting here are NOT trained in any sort of counseling), we still may agree with your decision.

What I think all of us are trying to get thru to you is that if you read and comprehend the marriagebuilder materials, you will realize that what is intended here is to work on your own character, making yourself a better person in the process. If that causes your marriage to be saved, great! If the marriage fails anyway, that's a shame, but you will be in a much better position to have a lasting, positive relationship with someone new.

Not everyone who follows the MB principles saves their marriage, but they do come out better people for having gone thru the effort. You might want to look at the thread, "Continuing Saga of ALS" over on the General Questions II board. His marriage did not survive, but he feels like his divorce was less painful, and his ability to enter into a new relationship improved, because of the steps he took trying to deal with his (note: value judgement on my part), NUTJOB, SELFISH wife.

Please don't let bitterness drive your decisions. You'll regret it later.

Good luck!

All:

Well, as one who's been in nearly exactly scubed's shoes and "handled" the fallout completely differently, I'm going 2 come across as pretty darned judgemental of him in this post.

I think that Johnh39's and JL's posts 2 him have been right on the mark. I'm also going 2 be a little more than judgmental of Bryanp's posts. Bryanp, you're pretty predictable in most of your responses 2 "newbie" BSs, and your posts 2 him here have been no different. Completely missing from your posts 2 him are empathy and compassion for both the BS AND the WS, perhaps the 2 most useful things 2 a BS just out from D-day that I can think of. Instead of the cold, caluculating, selfish WS that you've painted his W 2 be, I see a very, very typical, confused person not at all unlike nearly all WSs you'll read about and from at MB. And like my FWW.

SilenceCubed: Again, I'll be pretty hard on you, because I don't think even Johnh39 and others have been hard enough on you. You come across 2 me as a judgmental and vindictive character. Most BSs react with hurt, anger, all the things you describe FOR A WHILE. But at the same time, I felt and have heard from nearly every BS here, a strong desire 2 understand what went wrong.

Affairs don't happen in vacuums (though, as I have said before, perhaps they should! -would put a damper on the whole thing). We're all fallible. As a BS, I had 2 look long and hard at my own shortcomings that compounded our "good marriage" for so many years and helped lead my W 2 thinking that I didn't care enough about her so she might as well go have an A with her "friend". I see no evidence of compassion or empathy in your posts so far, and I believe they would have come out long before now if they were there at all.

Good luck 2 you and your family. You'll need it.
-2long

IMO you handled it correctly. I am finding it amazing that you are being treated as the guilty party instead of the victim. Furthermore, for anyone to suggest that unless you don't heed their advice you shouldn't post here is full of ****. Whether you stay married is up to YOU not a bunch of pseudo-marriage counsellors who have failed in their marriages or have been struggling for years to keep their marriages together.

yosh:

"IMO you handled it correctly."

And you are entitled 2 that opinion. And Scubed MAY HAVE handled it correctly. I am not judging THAT. I am "judging" his motivations for coming 2 a marriage builders website. There must be a "vengeful betrayed" website out there somewhere that would be more appropriate.

"I am finding it amazing that you are being treated as the guilty party instead of the victim."

There are no "guilties". There are no "innocents." And being a victim will accomplish nothing.

"Furthermore, for anyone to suggest that unless you don't heed their advice you shouldn't post here is full of ****."

He can certainly post here, so long as he adheres 2 the MB rules, since it is their forum. I am only suggesting that he may not get what he wants here.

"Whether you stay married is up to YOU"

Hm... Whether he stays Md or not IS up 2 him. It would be nice if he gave his W a choice, 2, but he doesn't seem 2 be interested in her choices.

"not a bunch of pseudo-marriage counsellors"

None of us claim 2 be marriage counselors.

"who have failed in their marriages or have been struggling for years to keep their marriages together."

Quite the determination after only one post!

-2long

Too Long

Who are YOU to judge anyone's motivation for coming on this website. He has the right to discuss his marriage or his future plans without being attacked because he does not want to follow the party line.

Yosh,

Before you run your mouth too much perhaps you should read the charter and purpose of this site. Scubed can do anything he darn well pleases, but frankly he didn't come here to discuss anything. He had his plan and he executed it. All fine and dandy, but why come to a marriage building site presumably for information and make no use of it, unless you find it useless? And if you find it useless, why post??

You clearly haven't been here long enough to understand why Scubed got the form of response he did. It was not malicious, it was to wake him up, and hopefully deflect his thinking just enough so that he would stop and think. He chose not to do that. Fine, but many first time posters come with a certain plan, and the "wake" up they get causes them to stop and think, and often alter their plans to meet what they really do want once the pain of betrayal settles down.

SCubed did not. He is a big boy, he can and did make his choices, that doesn't mean people won't give voice to what they wish he would consider.

The party line as you referred to it, is the purpose of this site. If it doesn't suit you, you are free to seek information elsewhere.

JL

yosh:

"Who are YOU to judge anyone's motivation for coming on this website."

I am 2long. Nobody more, nobody less. I just so happen 2 be married 2 a beautiful, wonderful, thoughtful person who made a s2pid mistake, like Scubed's W did. I chose 2 find out what I did wrong 2 contributed 2 her dissatisfaction with our M. Scubed hasn't done that, and so I question his motivations for coming HERE simply 2 post his vengeful plan. Is that judgmental of me? Perhaps. I reserve that right.

"He has the right to discuss his marriage or his future plans without being attacked because he does not want to follow the party line."

Whatever the party line is. Sure, he can post and discuss, but he has done little more than post his plan and a report of the reactions he got when he carried it out. If he wants a DV, he's sure headed in the right direction. If he doesn't, he's in the right place, provided he's willing 2 "discuss" what he's thinking and doing and is interested in hearing us relay our own experiences in a similar si2ation. I just haven't seen that... ...yet.

-2long

SC, if you meant to imply by one of your earlier responses that I do not understand the seriousness of the betrayal you have experienced, let me unburden you of that misconception. I have previously described on this site that what my wife did to me was similar to if she had drugged me and invited someone who was a friend of hers in to analy rape me as she watched, so that she could spend more time with him, and later have the gall to tell me that he was a man of integrity, had been her best friend, and that parts of their friendship were healthy, and that he stated that he wanted to have sex with her (rape me), but it was OK if they didn't, because he just wanted to spend time with her and acted consistently with that statement (which implies, if it is not obvious, that the sex (rape) was her idea). I hope that is graphic and visceral enough to convince you that I understand the seriousness of the betrayal we have both experienced. One can argue that she does not deserve forgiveness for that, and I would not dispute that, but if someone deserves forgiveness, it isn't forgiveness, is it?

I assume you have come here because you are seeking understanding, as you have said that your wife is not making sense. (Speaking of not making sense, my wife also said that she never went to his hotel room to have sex. For three years. Juxtapose that with her contention above that it was her idea <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) What your wife is saying (and my wife said) is typical of the kinds of things WS's say, really. Most of them get over it, and eventually are horrified that they ever could have said or believed such crap. Or if not horrified, just plain sad. Although in my wife's case it was also because the meanings of the words she used meant different things to me and to her, which is why I picked up on the "lack of understanding" thing

I have said repeatedly that you have shown by your posts that you don't understand your wife. I wish I had had more time on Tuesday, and had mentioned that I expected your wife would do neither of your top two expectations, because now it just sounds like 20/20 hindsight, but since it was clear from your posts that despite your research, you still were clueless why your wife was acting as she did. I see you are beginning to acknowledge this when you finally say in your post to Bryanp </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I suspect her first words were designed to calm the situation,...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(emphasis added) Most of the time you claim to know exactly why your wife is doing something. In fact, you return to that attitude by the end of the paragraph that contains the above quote, where you say: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I did use very the same response that she was only sorry about being caught and the implications. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The problem with that is that your are usually WRONG!! And even if you are right in this case, you have clearly and repeatedly demonstrated that you have no way of knowing wghether you are right or not.

Now, you may not really CARE right now why your wife does something, but you have also shown that you do not understand the effects of your emotions on your own decision-making processes, or the effects divorce will have on your kids. Taken together, those three gaps in your understanding will almost guarantee that you will not survive a second marriage without your second wife having an affair or divorcing you, which will compound the effects of your first divorce on your children. I am asking you to figure those things out before deciding whether or not to divorce. If, when you understand them, you still feel like the betrayal is too much to forgive, do what you think is best.

If you want to find out more about the effects of divorce on children, ask Cerri, who posts here at JFO. Unlike most of us, she IS a professional, and a good one, based on her posts here and testimonials from some of my aquantences. Her real name is Penny Tupy, and she is the brains behind saveyourmarriagecentral.com, so you can contact her by email through that site, if you would like to talk to her off the boards.

One last thing: When I called you "judgemental" in an earlier post, I did not mean "decisive". People like your wife who are able to tolerate the judgementalism you exhibit are unlikely to admit to you or even to themselves how it affects them emotionally. This is why you have no clue about what she is thinking or feeling - she does not feel safe to express her opinion in your presence for fear of being ridiculed and judged, just like you did when you said that she "was only sorry about being caught". How the H#LL do you know, anyway? Telling her that, or asking in a tone of voice that says that you know that is really the answer whatever she says, will not get you an honest answer. People who are punished for honesty and rewarded for dishonesty usually learn to be dishonest. You are now criticising your wife for being dishonest, aren't you? Where do you think this came from? And you are BOTH teaching your kids the same thing.

Don't you think there might be some advantages to learning a few new things before adding to the destruction your wife has caused in your family?

Lest any one mis-interpret what I am saying and implying here, SC's wife's lying and infidelity are NOT his fault. I know it sounds like that is what I am saying. I am not. She is responsible for her own actions. But, I am saying that he is responsible for the state of his marriage pre-affair, just as she is, and her perspective on what it was like, emotionally, was far different from his. I have no idea if she is able to even articulate this, because this is about how it felt, and usually people who can tolerate this kind of climate are not so great at expressing how they feel, because they supress it in order to survive.

Could this analysis be wrong (except the part about SC not understanding his wife, which he has conclusively demonstrated)? Sure, I'm not a shrink, and shrinks are wrong every day, anyway, just like the rest of us. Part of this comes from filling in the blanks, based on my own experience, and I am not SC, and my wife is not his wife. But, if the shoe fits...

<small>[ October 13, 2003, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

To Too Long:

It is sad that you are so judgmental of posts that you disagree with. I employ a tough love approach. You have a right to your opinion and views and I believe I should have the same right.
It sounds like you protest too much. It is interesting that my approach of no consequences to their actions equals no motivation to change approach seems to bother you so much. Your argument that anytime a spouse cheats it is because the other spouse has caused directly or indirectly or is at fault in some degree or another. Clearly this makes you feel good in some way about your situation. I do not believe this is always the case. I believe that some people have a character flaw and or a broken moral compass. It sounds like you are able to excuse every objectable behavior because they must be a reason behind it caused by the betrayed spouse.
Taking this to its logical conclusion then every criminal has a reason to be a criminal because sometime in their live somebody mistreated them and they are only reacting to it.
I am sorry you had a spouse that cheated on you but to say every betrayed spouse was the cause in some way of the cheating spouse's actions is ridiculous. Clearly this belief comforts you in your own situation but I certainly do not believe that it can apply to everyone in every situation.

It is sad that you have this need to attack individual posters who do not agree with your position and that you have this constant need to defend your positions. I think it says a lot more about your problems than the posters you are trying to help.

S**3 hi,

Just a remark to all the guys accusing you of being motivated only by revenge.

Please look at the time line. He's only in about the 6th week since DDay.

What concerns me more is the trading of underhand remarks to WW like "maybe you'll want to live with him in his trailer park when his wife has done with him". This to my mind shows that S**3 has not let go of her. This is the old hate and indifference thing. S**3 please don't stoop to her level.

Just Learning - quote

“As for not using emotion in a crisis, you are NOT in a crisis now. You are not under threat now. You win no matter what, and while you think that is due to your skill and cunning, you are wrong.”

Where exactly did I use the word “crisis”? Perhaps I am going blind however I have scanned my previous posts and the software has not even found this reference. I have effectively limited this situation to prevent a crisis, if you would prefer I have seen several other threads where “crisis” is the order of the day. By all means feel free to join them at your convenience.

“You win no matter what”, this is perhaps the most ridiculous statement to date on this thread, I honestly do not know if you are naïve, lack perception or are intellectual stunted.

“All I can say is I am glad you don't work in my corporation. I expect my employees to be, smart men, with an ability to function in crisis and under pressure with a cool and reasoned ability. But I also expect commitment, and that doesn't seem to strong in you.”

Oh my, the nickel psychology of deliberate provocation. I assume you are attempting it for some reason, once again my vision must be faulty for it escapes me. However I can assure you the feeling is quite mutual as I suspect you would never survive the vitality curve that I utilize on my employees globally.

Dear Silence^3,

Just a thought based on my personal experience with the D-day and feelings of disbelief, anger, surprise and all.

Aren't you annoyed the most that you let your W stun you with her actions? That the world around you stopped working the way you predicted?
Isn't your action plan the compensation for that, to prove one and for all, that you are STILL in control?

I took me long time, really, to accept, not just acknowledge that no matter how good planner I might be, how great my ideas to run the business of M/life/family etc are, I can only control myself, NOT anybody else. I still struggle with that, and I never thought I was "controlling".

I simply happened to think that "my way" is the best, most efficient, smartest, shortest, prettiest - you name it. And you know- in a competition yes, maybe " my way" would win, objectively, but it's up to you really if want to always be right, or you want to be in a good relationship. And this applies not to just marriage relationship, think parental, employer/employee, B2B as well.

I do believe in "tough love" approach even if I am too wimpy yet to do it correctly. But there has to be "love", not just "tough".

I wish you and your family
the best.

FBOW

Good Evening Princess0413

Princess0413 - quote

“I am glad I have been able to help you see a different side to things. I see that you are moving forward very strong in your decisions. I would have to imagine that deep down you still love your wife, as I know love doesn't just disappear. Would you want to work on your marriage? Is counseling an option?”

Emotions have an awful tendency to appear when least desirable and there have been moments where I wished that I could simply flip a switch and be done with it.

The area of concern I have with “working on the marriage” is that she has already revealed “who she is”. Example, I have read on this site where another BH’s wife sat in the restaurant and kissed and played with the om while her husband was in the restroom. In my opinion the referenced ww revealed her character by that defining moment. What other horrible capacities does this type person possess when you project this type of character to the future and all the pressures and challenges that any marriage shall face.

While my ww has not taken anything to that degree there are however implications that can be readily seen by quickly looking at the other threads (multiple D-Days, multiple oms, multiple ow’s, more lies, more manipulations, dead emotions). My opinion is that home is supposed to offer comfort, safety, affection and warmth etc.. It is not supposed to be yet another bastion of treachery and deception, I face that from 4 continents a day I don’t want it to be my home life as well.

The other wws’ writings invariably reveal continued evasion of responsibility and in brief very questionable personalities. This is the reason behind my interest in your postings. You have gone from one end of the spectrum to the other and it is difficult for me to grasp how it is possible and what might the implications be to my situation.

Hello Forbetterorworse

Forbetterorworse Quote:

“Aren't you annoyed the most that you let your W stun you with her actions? That the world around you stopped working the way you predicted?
Isn't your action plan the compensation for that, to prove one and for all, that you are STILL in control?”

I am more irritated with myself honestly for being foolish enough to allow someone to surprise me in such a serious matter.

My action is indeed a reaction to the change in home environment from being home to now at worst hostile to at best an unknown. Yes, when confronted with this type of environment I deploy a methodical and calculated action plan to in essence quarantine it until it can be effectively dealt with.

“I took me long time, really, to accept, not just acknowledge that no matter how good planner I might be, how great my ideas to run the business of M/life/family etc are, I can only control myself, NOT anybody else. I still struggle with that, and I never thought I was "controlling".”

In my home life I am the antithesis of what many would suspect. I actually enjoy the “chaos” and had very little motivation to make home similar to corporate.

“I do believe in "tough love" approach even if I am too wimpy yet to do it correctly. But there has to be "love", not just "tough".”

There is a very large question that most people here seem to overlook. Whether the BS is in love with who the WS is, or who you thought they were. Self delusion is I believe a mortal sin.