Hope,

Awed is right about several things. One, I am not usually here on weekends. Two, you have no idea what your H is thinking. She alluded to a third thing, which is not to believe what he says.

I will go a step further or reword what Awed said. Don't believe what your H says, but do believe his actions. Let's see his actions?

He is calling you and telling you where he is.

He asked you to join him in HIS bed, but he was very conflicted.

He said he felt nothing (how can that be good?? well it is I'll explain my take in just a moment)

Well, the calling is self-evident. He is trying to reconnect and help you. Do you think him for calling? Do you joke with him? Do you smile when you talk with him over the phone? You may not realize this but people can HEAR you smile, seriously it will change your voice and your inflections and your H will her you smile. So try that if you don't

He invited you to his bed. Girl that is a big one. You could say Yeah Yeah, all he wanted was sex. My take is ALL he wanted was sex?? Good.

Now to the last good part. You mentioned he said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We had this conversation, not really sure it was a conversation but rather his just stating, he could F*** me or I could F*** him, but he couldn't feel anything when we kissed. He's trying, but he can't! And he has trouble if we just lay next to each other (althought he was the one to tell me I had too much clothing on!))) I'm sooooooooo confused!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! I love the smell of conflict in the morning (to paraphrase an relatively old famous movie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

He is telling you he is still in withdrawal. What does that mean? It means he has NOT seen her and he is in withdrawal. He will not feel anything for you while he is. He will feel very uncomfortable with you, because he feels he should have strong feelings for you if he is in bed with you. Kissing in many ways is more intimate than F***ing so while he made need the sexual release and you might as well, he worries that he feels nothing for you.

Hope, this is text book stuff. What you need to do, is smile, touch him and tell him not to worry about it. Tell him you appreciate being with him and laying by him, and you understand that he doesn't feel toward you as he would like and you would like. Tell him to talk to you while he is laying there, have him tell you about his feelings (Yup for OW, his fears, etc). This will hurt to hear, but Hope you are lancing a boil.

But, more importantly you are building trust in him, that he can open up and be honest ( I feel nothing when we kiss). This honesty leads to intimacy via friendship. I know you take it as a slight, but the fact that he told you this much, is his attempt and honesty. He still isn't sure if he made the right decision, but he is trying.

So kiss him any way, hold him, invite him into your bed, and then just lay with him and hold him. You take a charge of this and realize that what you are hearing from him is NOT real in the sense of details but is a manifestation of his conflict and withdrawal. It is the actions that will eventually tell the tale, but he will be in withdrawal for weeks to months.

YOu just need to understand this is NOT about you, it is a process he MUST go through, and you being there, listening to him even about OW, will reach him and speed the process.

Hope, this is NOT a male/female thing. Flip the sides and think about what you would feel like being in bed with another man, but still having strong feelings for someone else, even if those feelings are guilt, regret, and yes strong attractions.

Here is where plan A is at its strongest and here is where you need to tell yourself, that right now this is NOT about you, but it is as if your H had a high fever and was delirious. You would hold him, listen to his rantings, keep him comfortable, and just be glad he was still there.

This is a perspective thing again Hope. If you can step back and see your H in a new perspective you will pass through these times much easier, and you can actually help your H.

Just a few thoughts. Just understand withdrawal, feeling no feeling, wanting you sexually but being reticent are all part of the path. You are doing well, and your H is doing his part. Encourage him, thank him, smile at him, and relax.

This too shall pass.

God Bless,

JL

JL:

Thanks for the great advice it really it helpful to have the perspective of someone else who has already been there and done that so to speak.

To answer your questions, I try to thank him, but not overly so as not to seem insincere. Whenever he calls, usually on my cell phone, I put on my "happy" voice and yes I actually force a smile on my face. I've had people who know how I'm really feeling tell me that I sound great to someone who may not know my true feelings. The unfortunate part to this is that it's teaching me to be deceptive in a way. I'm usually the kind of person that wears my feelings right out there on my sleeve and you don't have to guess what I'm thinking or feeling Now, it's another story. Maybe that's why I've lost over 20 lbs in 2 months!!! I've seen it referred to as the infidelity diet, but never thought it actually worked!!

I am going to print this out so I can re-read it whenever I get low, it was inspirational as well as Awed's advice. You've both been great and I appreciate all your help. Fortunately I also have some friends close by that have been extremely supportive, letting me all at any time of the day or night, coming over to their house any time and even helping me to get extra counseling sessions, they are expensive.

I am going to see our MC on an individual basis a few hours prior to our next couple session. Hopefully he'll have some extra pointers/advice that will work. Who knows, but at this point I'm willing to try anything!

Thanks again! I'll post again later to update you.

Hope <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hope4Best: I finally found one of your threads. We really are in similar situations, but you are getting such wonderful advice. I'm going to try to take it to heart also. I've suspected that this is a time where the focus needs to be on WS, but I just feel so selfish. I want someone to acknowledge me and my pain! But I guess if Plan A is to work that can't happen right now.

I like JL's analogy of comforting WS if he were sick. I've actually thought the situation might be like if WS had cancer. Would I run away? No, I would like to think that I would stand by him. But do I have limits? I know that before the A began, WS was depressed. Shouldn't I have been doing anything in my power at that point? Perhaps this is the lesson of the A for me. I really need to be there for WS and our M.

I was thinking that WS' non-feelings were unique. Doesn't every man just want to have sex? But again, I'm learning something new about WS. He has tremendous feelings that I don't let him express. My next step will try to tell him that I understand that he doesn't have the feelings for me that I would like, but that it's okay. Then I will try to ask about his feelings towards OW and his fears. Scary thought! We have talked about it some, but I believe we need more.

Looking forward to your update.

Update - advice desperately needed. . . .

I am not in Plan B by default. We had a session on Friday with our MC but it was not going anywhere. I actually had had a session earlier that day with our MC (paid for my a friend who knows how much help I need) that my H was unaware of. At our session together in the afternoon I felt that it wasn't going anywere, he wasn't talking about his feelings and were ending up just staring at the MC so I asked the MC if he thought that it might be better if he talked to my H alone. My H agreed and I left.

The next day, Saturday, my H said that the MC thought we should talk about his session. Basically, in a nutshell here's what happened:

1. The MC told my H that in order for him to clear his head and be able to make any kind of decisions he needed to have NO CONTACT with the OW and he clearly spelled it out for him which means including no telephone contact.
2. He needed to move out of our house. Apparantly, my H has been trying to appease me with some affection and then when I return it he gets even more conflicted, etc.

As it stands now my H has decided to stay with his mom who lives about a mile away. He will be coming over every morning to get our youngest son ready for school and get himself ready for work. (He will come over after I leave for work as I leave very early in the morning).

I'm not really sure what to do now or what to expect. I could really use any advice anyone has. My H also said (as the MC said to him) that he didn't know how long this would or could last and that there were "no guarantees". However, according to my H, the MC has seen this approach work for others.

I'm a bit scared because my H feels that in order to break off the contact with the OW he needs to do that in peson. I disagreed with him and said so, but I can't control what he does.

Later that day, I decided to call the OW's H. I wanted to know what was going on on their end and wanted to find out how much he knew. She has been very dishonest with her H. She led him to believe that they had never been physical, well I squashed that rumor. She also told him that she wanted nothing to do with any man, and I told him that was because she had my man. At one point in our conversation he told me he didn't want the divorce, but later he said he couldn't go back to her and the lies, etc. I told him that to stall his divorce if he didn't want it and that if my H really did go to see her and tell her he culd not have contact with her, he might start to hear a different story from his WW.

I also learned that there are a few of her family members that really dislike my H, they know him because they do business with him which is likely to stop soon because of the A. I encouraged him to tell them that they would say why they are moving their business to his face and they should also tell his boss. I think if his ego were deflated a bit, he might think a little more clearly. I think part of this trouble is that he thinks he is the best thing since sliced bread and his employer is part of that inflation of ego.

It was also interesting to hear that the OW's H offered to buy her out of the house, but she refused. Why? My theory is that she isn't really ready to move on until she knows if she can have my H. What do you think?

I really dislike being separated. I think I knew deep down it would come to this, but it's hard and now I have to deal with my 6 year old is who misses dad and cries about it. He actually asked me to teach him how to pray so he could pray for his daddy. He's such a giving child.

Hope

Hope...I'm so sorry to hear your update. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I am completely out of my depth now, but still manage to come up with two suggestions and a strong opinion:

1. Start a new post if you get no response. Specifically, ask for advice from Cerri, Star, JL...perhaps something like "MC advised separation...help???". Briefly summarize your M situation and ask for advice on what your next move could be.

2. Please look after yourself. Keep doing everything you were doing before, as we've discussed to death. These things will HELP YOU. Helping your M is secondary right now.

I'm going to be very blunt with my opinion: I am incredibly disappointed with your MC. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

You are not in Plan B at all. Plan B would be at your instigation, not the advice of a 3rd party. I fought against all advice to separate because I instinctively thought it would not lead to anything positive for our M. I sensed that the physical distance would solidy the emotional distance, not reduce it. Of course, I've since discovered that MBers don't believe in it either (except for Plan B) nor did the MC I saw. She believes separation usually leads to divorce.

Part of it relates to the phrase, living "as if". Live as if you are still married, not as if you are divorced.

Your MC may have seen this approach "work", but what exactly does he mean by that? That your H will "discover" his true "feelings"? He obviously views your H's conflict as something to overcome, not as an achievement.

As per JL's message, MBers believe that the state of conflict is likely to naturally resolve in your favour (I'm grossly generalizing here!) if you work on the M (Plan A) and safeguard/preserve your feelings (Plan B). It's a very specific plan and technique, not like traditional MC which can espouse digging to the root of conflict (stirring it all up again) or advocating that people seek to find "happiness" or their true inner feelings, regardless of consequence(s) to the family. The MB approach seems counterintuitive -- ie. why should the BS do all the work to save the M that the WS is throwing away? Yet, as you can see from many of the stories here, the approach works to save M.

It sounds like your MC has a far different approach. I hope someone else can chime in with something more concrete for you, next steps, other helpful suggestions. After all, lots of BS have to deal with enforced separation and still manage to pull off good Plan A's.

My thoughts are with you...awed

Awed and JL:

I will post under th ePlan A/B colume, but my H just came to the house and was PISSED!!!!!!

The MB principle does state to put it on the evening new so to speak and his statement to me was " you made the wrong f******* phone call!"
Have I made things worse??? Oh, I'm so scared because I have never seen him this angry.

help I need advice quickly!!!!

Hope...

I don't think you've made things worse -- what others on the Plan A/B thread have said about the anger is quite right...what it really means is that you are having an impact. Remember that your intuition is wrong here (ie. to avoid making H angry/upset) -- although in every other way you must meet his needs and avoid LBs, any anger/upset he experiences associated with exposing the A is not considered an LB.

But I am concerned that you remain physically safe (ie. with your H), and that you feel okay about what you are doing, regardless of his actions/words.

I know it seems like you've reached crisis (perhaps you have in some ways) but remember this whole marriage-saving process is always described as a roller-coaster for good reason: you will have a LOT of ups and downs. So don't get discouraged if this turns out to be a down for a while because it can still turn out positively in the end.

He is still in fog, he's lying to you both (I think you can at least believe that bit from your conversation with OW), he's angry and upset that he's getting pressure from OW now...but you can't do anything about him!

Here's what I think you CAN do:

a) remain calm

b) don't LB, regardless of what he says, or how he says it

c) practice your response to hearing the worst from him (repeat to yourself: he's in the fog) -- don't argue, don't beg, but tell him what you FEEL

d) keep re-reading your inspirational bits (if necessary, change to new ones to adjust to your new circumstances) in order to maintain your motivation and avoid depression

e) do stress-busting activities including lots of physical activity in order to maintain your motivation and avoid depression

f) talk/write to your support group as often as you need to in order to maintain your motivation and avoid depression. Use these resources to vent, especially when you feel like giving up or when you are angry

Please keep posting with updates. Star is great and you may have others chiming in tomorrow as well.

Be strong and maintain optimism <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> -- your situation is now evolving...awed.

I've thought of two other WS examples for you to consider...

1. In various conversations between my H and I, as I try to sort out the last year of our lives, my H repeatedly says: "I said that???". They (WS) don't know what they are saying half (most?) of the time. Really. Believe it. It is incredible.

2. Whenever the issue of anger comes up -- for example, if I ask him why he said something hurtful or got angry at me over (blank) -- it is the same answer over and over again: guilt. It had nothing to do with me or what I was saying/doing directly. They are feeling guilty about what they are doing to you so they get angry or say mean things to you. Remember this and remind yourself whenever necessary. They don't like what they are doing. If they did, if their conscience was clear, they would handle things quite differently.

When I say it was nothing I said or did directly, what I mean by that is that he tells me my whole Plan A behaviour made him feel very very guilty. He fought with OW because he saw (and told her he saw) that I had changed. She then ratcheted up the pressure on him to leave me or engaged in endless prying about what we were doing (she was jealous that he might be sleeping with me...so bizarre!).

Therefore my behaviour indirectly resulted in increased guilt inside him and increased conflict with OW, which led to angry outbursts and hurtful comments back at me, even as he was falling back in love with me and leaving her. Doesn't make sense (FOG) but it is reality.

And that's why anger can be a good sign...again, counterintuitive. So maintain hope, despite your initial reaction... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Awed, JL and others,

I just received a phone call from my H (it's 6:40 a.m.) I can tell he was crying, something he's never done before. Even at his father's funeral he only shed 1 tear.

We are supposed to meet tonight to talk and were going to meet at a restaurant. I wanted a very public place since he was pretty hot tempered yesterday. I was actually afraid.

He made some comments to me:

1. I've hurt you too much.
2. I would have continued to see Lisa if she hadn't walked away.
3. I can't eat, can't sleep, my mind is going in 15 different directions.
4. I can't work.

I told him I understood what he was going through, that I too had these feelings at one time. I told him that I could forgive everything if I knew that we were working together as a team. He is important to me and I want to be there for him and support him. (I didn't tell him that I loved him, but rather tried to convey to him how important he was to me, my life and the children). I hope this was ok, but it seemed like he needed to hear it at this time.

I told him that I had a call into the counselor and that I wanted us to meet with him there to mediate. He also wants to get in to see him and I told him I would make sure that a time was set up for him and have the counselor set the time up.

So, it appears that the OW was true to her word and said she was done. Let's see if her actions continue, I hope so.

Is his behavior indicative of withdrawl??? What has your experience been with this??

Hope <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I think it all sounds hopeful! He's so clearly conflicted...not sure who he wants to be with, what's going on, who he is. I suspect he's looking to you as a rock in the storm, which I think is also a good long-term sign for your M.

But remember...roller-coaster! He may go back to being angry again. In your shoes, I'd prepare to hear anything from him (opposite statements included), and keep practising your response -- no LBs is absolutely crucial. Until/unless you move to Plan B, you are still in Plan A.

Give him as sympathetic an ear as you can, say as little as you can (active listening), let him pour his heart out to you. It's not about you yet, which is unfair but just the way of it. Read the stuff on withdrawal because it is highly likely he'll be unpleasant/uncomfortable to be around for some time yet.

You may have already spoken to your MC but I think it's a good idea to clarify with him why he's suggesting separation for the pair of you. What Star was referring to in the other thread is the same thing I did above...your MC is not pro-marriage in the MB sense if he's suggesting that separation leads to reconciliation. Separation leads to resolution which is not the same thing at all.

If you can, perhaps you can discuss this with the MC before you meet with your H? Tell him you think it is really important that your H stay in the M, and that personal "space" is not likely to help him OR your son in the long-term.

On the other hand, perhaps that's just another battle you don't need to fight! I'm only suggesting it because I remain concerned that it not be your H and MC pitted against you and the interests of your M.

Oh yeah: one of the lines that worked really well for me (ie. my H took great comfort in it) was when I told him (repeatedly) that we BOTH had work to do because we'd both made mistakes. That got him out of the "you'll never be able to forgive me" rut.

Guilt is a huge part of the recovery hurdle Hope...read WS threads to see all the various possible manifestations it will take in the subsequent relationship, what I like to think of as the "new" marriage. Guilt can turn into silence, rage, depression, quirks, "dishonesty", withdrawal...

It doesn't surprise me that your H is crying and feels overwhelmed. Yeah part of it is withdrawal and/or pain because his new love could dump him (sounds as though she has for the time being anyhow), but you should know by now that he really does have deep feelings for you and it must be hurting him to realize what an utter sh*t he's been, the pain his selfish behaviour has inflicted on his family.

I can now really appreciate the tremendous weight of this WS burden. And that's why I believe your comments to him about getting through this as a team are a very good beginning for you both. Start as you mean to go on and it will help you to overcome resentment and perhaps even avoid bitterness altogether!

Keeping these fingers crossed for you...even though it makes it very hard to type <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ...awed.

Awed,

Thanks, I actually did briefly talk to the MC today. What he did was give him all possible options that he could take but ultimately my H had to decide for himself. I guess since he was still hearing what he wanted to hear and how he wanted to hear it, he heard you need to move out. The MC did not make that decision for him as my H put it, but I think it made it easier for my H because he couldn't actually make the decision himself. I really do like my MC, he's very MB like, although not totally, but unless you work through MB I guess you won't really be.

I'll be talking to my H later, we'll see how it goes. We've talked a few times during the day because he needed to get a check from the house, he seemed very afraid to go to our home with my mom there and asked if my dad was there too! Also, he made a comment about how he thought he might be fired from his job (see it's completely against policy for an officer of the company to have an affair with a subordinate, especially your own employee). He had told me his boss already knew, apparently, he doesn't.

We'll see what happens. . . . .it's a strange ride we're on!!

Hope <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />