Hurting & Mr.Coffee,
Yes and no

I agree with TMCM's comment.... Don't apologize for being open and honest with your W, for you are showing her through your example that privacy has no place in a marriage.

In the perfect world and therefore the perfect M, this concept absolutely applies. Harley's various M policies, whether Radical Honesty or POJA etc., assume imo that both spouses have agreed to live by them. If only one spouse is trying to live by these rules while the OP is in flagrant violation that doesn't make for much of a M. That's what As are all about. One spouse is still working within the M boundaries while the other for whatever reason (read) rationalization is not. While admirable for the one party attempting to live by the standards, these policies really aren't going to work unless both spouses have agreed to at least try to live by them.

IMO, radical honesty should be (re)established back in the M once both parties have agreed to 1) work on the M 2) agreed to NC and 3) recovery has begun. At this point it is possible to assume that both sides are playing by the same rules.

On the other hand if radical honesty is used by a BS towards a WS that is still "on the fence" or "in the fog" imo that defeats alot of the purpose of Plan A. It's like giving your battle plan to the enemy in advance. Strategically doesn't make alot of sense to me. Oh well....

Hurting's wife has said alot of the right things however some of her actions tell me that she is possibly still on the fence and that's why I made the comment that I did.

Besides Mrs. Hurting is a conflict avoider and knowing my W and her response to MB in the beginning, I was trying to advise Hurting based upon my situation which seems to have alot of similarities. Of course every sit. is different.

TNCM,
Always enjoy your thoughts

Hurting,
Tell me about your Plan A. Especially the anger

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">cwmac:

"IMO, radical honesty should be (re)established back in the M once both parties have agreed to 1) work on the M 2) agreed to NC and 3) recovery has begun. At this point it is possible to assume that both sides are playing by the same rules."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry but I beg to disagree because someone, usually the BS, has to keep the marital vows alive otherwise the WS will feel justified in his/her decision to have the affair.

TMCM,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I beg to disagree because someone, usually the BS, has to keep the marital vows alive otherwise the WS will feel justified in his/her decision to have the affair.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. I'm not suggesting that the BS turn into a liar, cheat etc.

I just don't believe in turning the battle plan over to someone who although is not the enemy but because of the "fog" may be acting like the enemy.

That's the only difference otherwise I'm in agreement with you.

For example, if Mrs. Hurting had asked H what he was doing on computer. The honest answer is," I found a web site that is really helping me thru this tough period. It is helping me be the best H I can be. I want to save my M and make it better"

That is exactly what I said to my W. I didn't however show her every posting and every little thought I had whether good or bad. For one thing my W lied to me for 18 months about the fact of the EA, its extent and whether it was a PA. Do you really think it would have helped her come out of the fog if she had seen one of my posts asking whether it was ok to spy to learn truth? Do you think it would have helped her be more forthright if she had seen one of my posts venting about all her lies. The animity that this site offers helps BS cope with the emotions of the minute/hour. By the time my W read one of my posts I could have completely changed mood &/or opinion.

I again restate the opinion that I wouldn't invite my W to read posts until recovery had begun and even then it would make me extremely nervous because she'd be able to go back and see all of my old posts.

tmcm and cwmac, I need your insight more than ever. Today I came home for lunch and phone rang. Yesterday I received call from w's coworker wanting to switch hours - we'll call him G. I told G wife was ill and would not be working. Today I came home from work for lunch. Phone rang and wife answered. When I asked who it was she said G - but I could tell differently. I asked her if it was om. She said no straight to me.

Well I sat down for lunch and said if there is nothing to hide let me call back. W said you have to trust me - you don't need to call back. I said if there is nothing to hide I will just tell them I dialed wrong number. Then I called.

Found out G did not work today but om did. Finally, W admitted even after trying to get me to believe otherwise that phone call was om. So now I have nc letter in my back pocket she agreed to write if om called. Will send it certified mail today. W said she was going to tell me but was scared of my reaction. I was very calm (no lb's - I am changing)

Om had no idea I was still here or what I have been told. I stayed past lunch and om called while w and I were outside. I called number on my caller id because I thought it was someone else.

Turns out I called om's cell phone. Have never seen his number on caller id before. And I have been home all week so I know he did not call previously. I'm sure om was calling because he heard w was ill. Well I spoke to om - very civilly and calmly.

I told om wife had written letter he would be receiving. I did not tell him the contents. I asked him where should I mail it to - was firehouse ok. After stuttering all over himself he said firehouse was fine. He also said letters could be coerced. I told him she wrote the letter in her writing and I wish he would respect her wishes. We were going to fix our marriage. I also told him he may want to get some counseling for his own marriage - it might help him out. I was very calm.

Needless to say he was not very friendly and said he would like to here this from w. Well I was going to put her on phone but she did not want to. Probably a good thing - everything says not to let om and w talk to one another.

Wife was very depressed after this happened. She said she really messed up and was not good enough for me. I avoided all lb's and told her she was a good woman and that I still loved her. I do. She was making me nervous talking about how she felt she had let everyone down including me and the kids.

I told her just look at our kids - they are the very best of myself and w. They are well adjusted great kids. And that was because of her and me not just one or the other. W kept talking about she might just need to leave to make things better for everyone - including me. After I told her I loved her no matter what, she promised not to leave.
What do I do now? I'm afraid om will pursue w until he has a chance to talk to her. I will send letter today - certified mail. Should I have told him to expect the letter? Help guys I need some insight.
I will say w seems almost relieved now that we have had more chance to talk. She understands she can not see om anymore. She is not going back to job next summer. She is looking at going back to nursing school. Is this too much too fast - what do you recommend. I told w I would not talk about A rest of this weekend - only focus on positive stuff like kids trick or treating. Please reply and post insights.

Hurting,
Sounds like you handled a tough situation well. No lb's, no anger. Just remember what I told you about my W. I, too, handled the A calmly ( in front of her that is) but because of her perception of me she still saw me as angry even when I was acting very calmly (More about this and MC thoughts on W as a conflict avoider in another post)

In a way your W and mine rationalize(d) their lies because of the way you and I might act.

I know you were "fired up" at the time but talking to the OM isn't really going to help. He won't believe a word that you say and he'll become worried about your W. Remember she may have painted you as a "monster" to him. BTW, my OM had a "white night" complex. Since yours is a fireman I'm sure you can bet that he has one also. This will make him very worried about her safety and emotional state. My guess is that he'll continue to try and call her.
I'll post more in a minute......

Hurting,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So now I have nc letter in my back pocket she agreed to write if om called. Will send it certified mail today. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Remember you can't force someone to send a NC and even if you do what good is it if she doesn't mean it. Approach the NC letter issue very carefully. Remember she still sees you as an angry person.

Ask her very calmly if you and she can sit down and discuss the situation. At the start reiterate what I've told you that you love her and have no intention of leaving the M. Broach the subject of your improved behaviour. Ask her if she's noticed a difference. If she says "no." don't get upset because it may take awhile. If "yes" that's a good sign. Tell her that you've really been trying and you hope that your efforts can be rewarded by her trusting you agin with the truth. Tell her that if the OM calls again she doesn't need to be scared by your reaction and that you hope that she tells you the truth!

OK...now ask her how she feels about the NC letter. My guess is that she'll say "no way" he's a good friend, no reason to give up friendship etc. etc. You just don't trust me. I would tell her calmly that you think the friendship has gone past a normal friendship and that it's impacting your relationship. If she fights you on the NC letter I wouldn't force her to send it. Just makes you the "angry" bad guy.

TNCM what do you think?

H,
One more thought. Your W made a classic WS comment to you today.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...... if there is nothing to hide let me call back. W said you have to trust me - you don't need to call back. I said if there is nothing to hide I will just tell them I dialed wrong number. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tell your W not to confuse love and trust. You love her very much but based upon current events the trust is being tested. Trust is earned. Tell nicely that you want the trust to be rebuilt in your R. Her actions will speak louder that her words. Next time OM tries to contact her she should immediately tell you.

My W had numerous occassions to reestablish my trust but each time she chose to lie to me which had the opposaite effect.

Reminder: Deep breath and reeelax. Show your W that you aren't angry nor anxious.

Hurting,

Everything OK?

cwmac, doing ok thanks for asking. W and I have had very good weekend. We had agreement nc letter would be sent if om contacted her on personal level. And he did. We mailed nc letter certified mail on friday. I don't think W was completely comfortable sending letter. She said om may think she is "nuts" because she does not feel relationship warrants such a letter. I politely disagreed because I have seen om give my w "the look" and I spoke to him on phone and om said letters can be coerced. But she wrote it and signed it just as it says in part 2 of coping with A.

I said to her we are at a "crossroads". This is her chance to do the right thing. I am working very hard on Plan A. I was very calm during whole ordeal friday. I think I made a mistake by making the deal that if he contacted her then nc letter had to be sent - even though she agreed. This encouraged her not to tell me because there were consequences if she did. She said she was going to tell me - it was just going to be later. I'm not sure I would have ever found out. The deal we had about the nc letter would almost seem to encourage what she did - which was to be dishonest. I want her to feel safe telling me anything because she can - I refuse to practice lb's ever again - it almost messed up any chance at reconciliation.

We had also agreed that if om contacts her again then I would talk to om's wife. But I told W we will decide that on our own. I may try to talk to her anyway if my w will agree.

I asked my w if she noticed change in my behavior. She said "definitely". It is not a hard change to make if you really love your w - and I do. It bothers me because I see some of the same traits in my son. And I want him to be better than me - not have to learn such a lesson the hard way.

I fully expect om to contact w as soon as he receives certified nc letter. I spoke to wife and told her honesty on en questionnaire right now would be -3 if I were ranking her. I let her know that it would be a huge step toward reestablishing our trust if she contacts me immediately when om calls or worse yet - comes by my home. I asked her to just tell him to read the letter - please do not speak to him. Hopefully, he will not contact her - but I agree with your "white knight" assessment. I'm sure he will. I will continue to Plan A through this - it's all I can do. Seeing personal therapist tomorrow. Take care. Any input from toomuchcoffee also greatly appreciated.

Hurting,
It sounds as though things are going well for you. Keep in mind that recovery is a "rollercoaster" ride. Some days you think that everything is going fine and then wham. Be prepared for it and if you are it won't upset you as much.
My guess is that OM will try and call your W. Since he is a "white knight" he'll be concerned about her. He would do this whether it's "just" an EA or the PA.
I still couldn't tell from your post whether your W was 100% behind sending the NC letter or whether you were just having her live up to her previous agreement.
Now the tough part. Right now you think you're W is being copperative so you won't want to call the OMW. Harley says that you should tell OMW.
If it were you, wouldn't you want to know?
From my experience the sooner the better. I was like you on this issue. I told my W that if the OM ever broke NC I'd call his W. The rub is that you need to depend on W to tell you the truth about contact. We know how our Ws did on that front. In my situation I had a way to test my W as to her truthfulness (thank you Radio Shack)

Also why is your W so worried about you calling the OMW aren't they getting "divorced?" My bet is that you may discover that OMW thinks she is happily married. She needs to know.

To late now but NC letter could have explained why your W thinks that she should no longer have any contact. Terms like innappropriate relationship, had the potential to become more than friendship could have been used since most people don't understand EA terminology.

CALL THE OMW TODAY!!!!!!!

Hurting,
It's been a couple of days. I wanted to see how the conversation with OMW (soon to be XW??) went.

cwmac

cwmac---I feel as though you are more interested in giving hurting bad information. You almost seem excited about the OMW (soon to be XW) comment. Hurting has been through alot and pulling that into the equation doesn't seem fair to him or the other party. As in the above mentioned posts it appears that OM is getting a divorce. Give that a rest!! I have followed several of your responses cwmac and you seem to be very pleased about "helping" people get through this, I feel like you are just giving people advice based on what happened to you personally, every situation is differant, and after reading your responses to hurting I finally had to write.

Hurting, let me give you a perspective that you probably haven't seen to much in this forum. I was not cheated on, I was the cheater. I am still currently married but not sure how much longer. Did my spouse deserve this? No. My spouse was a good partner and good parent, but did not do much to meet my emotional needs. I have had a hard time with my decision to have an affair, but I did it, and in this, I feel I have found myself and realized my marriage, regardless of my affair, wasn't what it should have been. Sometimes, the BS blames themselves when they shouldn't, it's all about the WS trying to find something missing in their life.

This web site can be helpful to some people, but it is much too generalized. Careful with cwmac!

howdoyoudo, your post prompted me to read all of cwmac's posts on this thread, all I see is someone concerned about helping another human being, somone who is concerned about anothers feelings and wellbeing, not like that of one who is a WS who is trying to justify to others thier own reasons for having a A, nuff said.

Howdie Doodie,
You said.....
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You almost seem excited about the OMW (soon to be XW) comment. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That wasn't my intent at all. My recollection was that Hurting DL wasn't sure he knew the truth about whether OM and his W were getting a D. That's why I put several question marks (???) If I had been excited as you say I may have used several exclamation marks (!!!).

If you've read alot about A's whether on this site or in books like "Not Just Friends" by Glass, most experts believe that A's are based upon lies. Lies not just to the BS but also to the OP. People ( I believe men more often than women) tend to exaggerate their marriage woes so that the OP feels a bond with them. They comiserate together. "My W this" & "My H that"

You also said.... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hurting has been through alot and pulling that into the equation doesn't seem fair to him or the other party. As in the above mentioned posts it appears that OM is getting a divorce. Give that a rest!! I feel like you are just giving people advice based on what happened to you personally, every situation is differant, and after reading your responses to hurting I finally had to write.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes Hurting has been thru alot...What is your point? If you're suggesting that Hurting's W was going to run off with the OM after his divorce, there was nothing in Hurting's posts to indicate that. His W appears to be remorseful and is probably afraid of his reaction. FWS (yourself possibly excluded) tend to fear that the BS will end the marriage. They can also end the marriage themselves due to the guilt that they have because it's easier to end the M than deal with the guilt.

thatdoesn't seem fair to him or the other party. Why is not fair to him? I don't understand the point or the logic. As far as the OP goes I could care less. I was addressing my concern to Hurting.

I have followed several of your responses cwmac and you seem to be very pleased about "helping" people get through this, yes..guilty as charged. Doodie that's what this forum is for. It is meant to be a place where people can discuss their feelings and reactions to the horrible news. Hurting didn't post on this site to see his typing on a web site. He was looking for responses from people who can realte to what he's going thru. He wanted someone just like I wanted someone like TooMuchCoffeeMan, 2Long and others who responded to my original posts. I think the insensitivity may be on your end because you can't relate at all to what he's going thru. You have no empathy for him at all. You on the other hand as witnessed by your posts relate to the OP.

I feel like you are just giving people advice based on what happened to you personally, Yes again. As per my comments above, people post to get feedback from other people with similiar situations. I typically respond to people who are learning of EA's. No one on this forum claims to be a psychologist, psychatrist or any other form of MC. We are all just here sharing ideas and feelings.

And you said.... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am still currently married but not sure how much longer. Did my spouse deserve this? No. My spouse was a good partner and good parent, but did not do much to meet my emotional needs. I have had a hard time with my decision to have an affair, but I did it, and in this, I feel I have found myself and realized my marriage, regardless of my affair, wasn't what it should have been. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did my spouse deserve this? No. My spouse was a good partner and good parent, but did not do much to meet my emotional needs. Sorry but it sounds like you are still rationalizing your affair.

I have had a hard time with my decision to have an affair, but I did it, and in this, I feel I have found myself and realized my marriage, regardless of my affair, wasn't what it should have been. You found yourself? Not sure I understand that comment. Your marriage wasn't what it should have been because you were devoting time, energy and resources on someone besides your wife. No marriage is perfect (especially for those of us who end up here) but had you given the same time, energy and resources to your wife it may have been better.

Despite your complete lack of empathy for Hurting and eventhough you appear to be continuing to rationalize your affair, I hope that your wife won't leave you. I hope that you and she can begin to rebuild the R. Are you going to MC?

Use this site to find out how BW's feel about their H's actions. Maybe you can find something useful to help you understand your W and her current feelings.

Rookie,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> all I see is someone concerned about helping another human being, somone who is concerned about anothers feelings and wellbeing, not like that of one who is a WS who is trying to justify to others thier own reasons for having a A, nuff said.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I appreciate your response. Thanks.

cwamc