In the end though, how much good does it do you as the BS to continue this behavior?

Eventually the bitterness has to stop, otherwise you're simply spinning your wheels, right?

I mean, if your desire is to recover...how is that helping?

Don't get me wrong, in the beginning I did all the wrong things. I was acting out in pain & to be honest I don't regret a thing I said. He DID deserve the consequences of his actions. But enough is enough at some point isn't it?

I am glad I came to my senses before it was too late. I sure don't want to be responsible for driving him right back in to the arms of the OW.

But that's just me & my 2 cents.

LoJay,
I think I'm just the opposite from you. In the beginning I did all the "right" things and now I'm wondering "why?" Was I just trying to do the right thing. Be more civilized about it. Show her that I could change so that she'd want me instead of her OM.
Maybe I am punishing her. Trying to push her away. Maybe I do want this to end in divorce. I don't know. I'm very confused about the future.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tak and others I did not misunderstand one single word.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Never said you did.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Tak who are you to say what is or isn't the thing for a betrayed spouse to do....hence who put in you in charge. You issued a command of what a betrayed spouse could not do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I issued a statement that it is not your place to do it. I never commanded anything. This thread, like all my threads, is my opinion and I have a perfect right to be authoritative about that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If I posted you will NOT tell betrayed spouses what to do I would be acting exactly as you did.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I beg to differ. What I said was it wasn't the BS's place to do something, I never instructed or commanded any action.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You did not say its not in the best interest of a betrayed spouse to punish you said they do not have the right too.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Precisely, because that is what I mean and stand by.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> CLEARLY both law and theology say spouse are NOT to committ adultery. Everyone accepts that but when violated you issue a decree saying what betrayed spouses should not do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Judge not lest ye be judged." I can quote law and theology to you. In both, the judgement and the punishment ultimately come from an authority figure, at least in our society. To do otherwise is called vigilantism. That is also illegal, you will note.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The issue raised is not what is productive or in the best interest of a marriage facing an affair BUT instead what a BS is NOT allowed to do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uh, I am the authority on what issues I am raising. If that's the issue you want to raise in respect to my words, or the issue you interpret my words to raise, that's fine. I also raise the issues of it not being in the best interest of the marriage.

Also, I never said a BS isn't allowed to do it. I just said they don't have a right to do it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you can't separate them, you've got some problems that need addressed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I said you have some problems that need to be addressed if you cannot separate consequences from exacting punishment. I also stand by that, it is my opinion. We all have problems that need addressed, otherwise we wouldn't be here. What you said is different than "Tak, you have some problems that need addressed, such as acting as if you are in charge." You used a biting, sarcastic comment.

Incidentally, this is the difference between legitimate RH and LBing in a marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are incorrect on the civil issue. Civil matters are strictly between individuals NOT society. The courts are the means for harmed party to seek recourse against the party they believed harmed them. It is the legal method of smashing out the offending party's windows. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, exactly. You do not enforce the agreement, and you do not enforce the court's decision. Other people with the authority to do so take care of that. Punishing your spouse yourself is the equivalent of taking a shovel and bashing windows out yourself for breech of contract instead of going to the courts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why do you think juries award "punitive damages" to the victim in civil law suits?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Punitive damages are decided upon and awarded by juries, not the wronged party. Punishing your spouse is decided upon by you. This is the differentiation I am trying to make.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you are wrong Tak because much of what a betrayed spouse experiences and expresses after discovery is common to all betrayed spouses.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just because something is common does not make it right. Infidelity is also common, does that make it right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By your argument its her fault she lost weight or sleep instead of what is commonly experienced by all betrayed spouses.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never said that everything was her fault.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Reactions are in many cases uncontrollable emotions. When suicide or murder occurs upon discovering an affair it involves an otherwise mentally healthy person reacting to the affair.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I disagree.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He maybe lovebusting like crazy, he maybe refusing to be radically honest, he may as stated still seeing OW, he may not have expressed any remorse or even apologized for hurting her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My point is that his behavior doesn't justify hers, not matter what it is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are implying that should the marriage fail the blame falls on her because of her behavior post affair rather than his affair.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The blame falls on both.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Regardless NOBODY has a right to tell anyone else what they can or cannot do. And your post is indeed telling betrayed spouse what they can or can't do rather than what is productive and counterproductive.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm telling them what I do not believe it is their place to do. I have never claimed to have any authority beyond my opinion, but I thank you for ascribing that authority to me.

Tak I do wholeheartedly agree that what she is doing is not productive.

But lets be fair here she is reacting not acting. By him being in an affair he is acting.

That's a huge difference.

A man breaks into your house and is coming at you---you reach into the night stand pull out a 45 and kill him. That is reacting to a situation forced upon you.

Same man cuts you off on the interstate and you reach into the glove compartment pull out a 45 and kill him you are also reacting but the situation doesn't force you to pull out the 45 and fire it.

So is the wife early in discovery with continued contact? If so she is reacting to circumstance forced upon her. She maybe reacting poorly choosing to "hide under the covers and hope the bad guy goes away" but she is still reacting.

You also make her the villan by saying she is hurting the kids rather than the fallout from his affair is hurting the kids.

I will throw this out there for some thought. Almost all the experts that deal with infidelity including Dr. Harley agree that contact with the OP must stop in order for recovery to occur.

In the defense of the betrayed wife she may in a very primitive way be sending him a completely different signal than what you are interpreting. She maybe telling him by her disposition that there will be no normalcy until he gives up his mistress. She is by tempermant drawing a line in the sand and forcing him to make a choice....a forced choice of his own chosing.

From what I gather he is not willing to let go of the OW until she gives him the environment he feels safe in. No offense but why does he deserve this? I know in order to save the marriage is going to be the response but doesn't he have an obligation to take steps to save the marriage too? After all its his affair that brought the marriage to this point. Shouldn't he also have to make his wife feel safe by not continuing to see the OW?

Tak if the affair is ongoing then its very difficult for a betrayed spouse to not be emotional to not react in ways that are not productive. But they are reactions not deliberately made plans of punishment. It fact it is highly unfair to try and assign motive to an injured party like her.

And its extremely unfair to say she is the one hurting the kids and her husband when he is the one still in an affair.

I just found your portrayal of her as the villian and him as the poor victim unfair. If I spoke too aggressively in her defense then I apologize for the tone of my message. Though I do not apologize for my message.

Peace, life has enough battles without a message board being one of them.

Take care,
Bobby

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> From what I gather he is not willing to let go of the OW until she gives him the environment he feels safe in. No offense but why does he deserve this? I know in order to save the marriage is going to be the response but doesn't he have an obligation to take steps to save the marriage too? After all its his affair that brought the marriage to this point. Shouldn't he also have to make his wife feel safe by not continuing to see the OW?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He doesn't deserve comfortable environment...but safe? Hmmmm....YES. It's okay to confront the affair and tell your spouse how devasted you are by it....YOU SHOULD. But if you demean, disrespect, rage with no end in sight....you'll get a spouse who doesn't trust you to rebuild anything. The truth is...it's grossly unfair for the BS to have do this at all....but that doesn't change the necessity to do it. The BS doesn't do it to coddle the WS either....they do it to recover their marriage...not create la la land for the WS. Lots of life is unfortunately unfair....but to get the results you want, sometimes it's necessary to do the impossible.

Think of it this way. An affair is like an addiction right? Let's say you are dealing with another addiction...say alcohol. How difficult would it be to quit drinking alchohol if all the triggers were still in place? If you still lived in the same environment, had the same friends, kept going to bars? Or what if you knew that the treatment facility you were going to....would bash you in the face whether you had another drink or not? Stopping the LBs is part of the effort to create a different environment from the one that almost certainly created the vulnerability in the marriage.

In the initial stages of discovery....I can forgive just about any of the behavior I see here...but after that....either get down to business, or be prepared to have a VERY slow recovery where the pain goes on and on. And if after a reasonable period of time...somewhere around a year...the statute of limitations on slapping people in your face with your pain...needs to run out. You cannot work on your marriage when you are letting your resentment, and rage....and taker...try to rebuild your marriage.

I agree with you completely about ongoing affairs....but stunned even then....if the idea is to give the WS an ATTRACTIVE alternative to the affair (PLAN A) then the love busting has got to end. Going back to a spouse that is in "punishment mode" is NOT attractive. If you aren't in Plan A....then in Plan B...there should be no contact and therefore no lbs anyway (that's a big part of the reason for it!}

Finally.....jettisoning resentment and the desire to punish is extrememly liberating and healing for the BS! That stuff eats you alive from the inside out. Your life immediately becomes so much more manageable and peaceful it's astounding.

Takola - I've gotten good advice from you and usually respect your opinion. You are probably even talking to me. When I found out I went ballistic and threw WS out. However I had reasons. First he had 5 months of knowing what was going on. I had no clue. It was very new to me. When I told him I was getting lonely and worrying about marriage, he said things will get better. I had no idea during this time that he was with OW. We were still intimate and he was not using protection. But because I trusted him, I was left unprotected. After D-day he kept saying he loved me and the OW was gone, but this proved to be a lie. He kept going back to her behind my back. He took all his check and spent it on her. I had to file bankruptcy, because I could not pay bills alone. According to you I should refrain from LB'ing, but until you've been in some BS's shoes, you should rethink that position. My WS is now living with OW. He still claims to be a Christian. He has ruined our family and OW's family, and still has the excuse that he didn't mean to do it. He still blames me for not taking him back, after he swore off OW and I caught them together 9 times. I'm in Plan B now and finally have some peace. It may sound like I am blaming everything on him, and I am. I had no chance to save marriage, or to make a safe place for him to come back to. The place was not safe for me. I hope you will put next post on the reconcilliation board.

star*fish

From what I read the affair apparently is still going on. Tak says he can't chose between her and the OW because she doesn't make him feel safe and he associates her with pain.

Am I misreading that the affair is still ongoing because that is how I read it.

If that is the case its the refusal to end all contact with the OP that is the greatest danger not her current state of anger and how she expresses it.

I am not disagreeing with premise that an angry raging betrayed spouse is not a good formula for recovery.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
In the initial stages of discovery....I can forgive just about any of the behavior I see here...but after that....either get down to business, or be prepared to have a VERY slow recovery where the pain goes on and on. And if after a reasonable period of time...somewhere around a year...the statute of limitations on slapping people in your face with your pain...needs to run out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">star my point here is we have yet to be told where this offending betrayed spouse is in regards to discovery. Apparently since the affair is ongoing we are very early in the discovery process.

Has she just found out in the last month or so?

Did he claim no contact then go back on that promise?

What exactly is she doing that is alledgedly using anger and rage as punishment?

We are condemning a betrayed spouse solely on the basis of a percieved attitude. We have no facts as to how long she has known. We have no facts on what the husband did or is currently doing.

We don't even know if she Planned A first then chose to Plan B when he continued seeing the OW. For that matter we don't even know which party he is residing with.

still seeking

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Perhaps I am wrong, and it is not your intent to attack Takola, but the words you use, and the way you use them denote anger, and disrespect to me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes you are taking it wrong there was nothing uncivil or attacking in my first post.

When someone tells you in a reply that if you don't see the difference they expect you to see that you quote If you can't separate them, you've got some problems that need addressed.

That is attacking. Asserting someone has problems that need addressing because they don't interpet things the way you see them is indeed a hostile response. If one doesn't wish to have that response returned in kind then don't make such statements.

Being a victim does not give you the right to pick up the stick and become a perpetrator.

So now she's the perpetrator? You see how tilted you approach is. He is still involved in an affair but she is the perpetrator.

The BS cannot control what the WS does, all the BS can control is his/her own actions -

What respected expert on infidelity says a betrayed spouse can control his or her actions early on?

Dr. Harley doesn't think so in Surviving An Affair page 19:

"The emotional impact of an affair on a betrayed spouse is incredibly powerful. Many cannot sleep for days and experience the worst depression of their lives. At the same time, they are on the verge of angry outbursts, losing their temper whenver they get on the subject of the affair. Their anxiety is also out of control as they panic over where the affair will take them."

Note he says anger, losing temper, anxiety, depression are all out of control. Yes those feelings need to be brought under control but he is saying that at least initially or while the affair is ongoing the betrayed spouse really is out of control.

Shirley Glass in "Not Just Friends" also points out how the betrayed spouse often feels powerless to control their emotions. Pages 9-10

"Commonly, betrayed spouses become obsessed with the details of the affair, have trouble eating and sleeping, and feel powerless to control their emotions, especially anxiety and grief, which can be overwhelming."

SG says the betrayed spouse feels powerless to control emotions and that those emotions are overwhelming.

Dr. Janis Spring in After The Affair even goes as far to point out the betrayed spouse actually goes thru physiological changes that affect your reasoning.

"Your mind and body are likely to be in shock. It's likely at this moment that your're undergoing physiological changes in both your nervous system and your congnitive functioning. As adrenaline and other stress-related hormones pour into your sympathetic nervous system, you experience a heightened state of arousal."

Many here are assigning an unreasonable amount of burden and blame on this betrayed spouse without any support that she is indeed punishing him rather than reacting to her pain.

star*fish

Not everyone endorses the belief that the betrayed spouse should shoulder the burden of recovery.

Again Shirley Glass in Not Just Friends:

"One of the dificulties of recovering from the trauma of infidelity is that the unfaithful partner must become the healer."

Her view is the wayward spouse must become the healer.

That is precisely what my wife became upon discovery. She reached out to me. Other than making every effort early on to keep the truth from coming out, she went to work on restoring our marriage. And once the truth came out she went about trying to heal the pain she caused me.

It took her effort to give our marriage a chance.

I will leave this thread to run its course but before doing so I think the finger needs to be pointed at the right party. And I will use Dr. Harley's book Surviving An Affair:

"Without total seperation (from OP), marital recovery is almost impossible."

Right now his unwillingness to seperate from the OW is making recovery impossible more so than her anger.

"Permanent seperation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to the betrayed spouse."

<small>[ November 13, 2003, 01:09 AM: Message edited by: stunned-dad-fast recovering ]</small>

It seems to me that there are a whole lot of competing things going on. I'm just going to focus on one.

Every single time someone justifies their behavior by saying "But look what THEY did," it indicates an unwillingness to look at what YOU did.

You cannot control anything but your own actions. It is physically impossible to do so. Even your reactions are YOURS. You discover infidelity? You could:

- Decide to end your marriage that day, pack, and leave, never having said a word to your spouse.

- Decide to have a screaming fit as soon as your spouse walks in the door, and end up throwing your favorite lamp against the wall.

- Decide to sit down and quietly review your options.

- Decide to pull out your Bible and try to read it.

- Decide to call your mom or best friend.

- Decide to calmly, courteously, and respectfully tell your spouse how you feel about what you've discovered, and ask them to change their actions.

There are a million choices; these are only a few of them. No matter how you feel on the inside, you can CHOOSE to be calm, courteous, and respectful on the outside.

If you do not choose to do so, and instead choose to make disrespectful judgements, selfish demands, and angry outbursts, that is also your choice. It is not, however, a choice that's conducive to the survival of your marriage.

Why? Because you're punishing your spouse. No matter what is going on, you do not have the right to do so. If you think you do, please refer back to what I said at the beginning. Blaming someone else for YOUR reactions is foolish.

And even if you still disagree and THINK you have the right to punish your spouse, please remember that your spouse is not likely to agree with you, and the more that you continue to do it, the more your spouse is going to think you're an unpleasant person to be around. Do you really want that?

stunned,

You are I are not disagreeing here. I think it's absolutely NORMAL for the BS to feel completely out of control in this situation. I do not think in any way that it should be the burden of the BS to get to recovery...except that most of them DO want their spouses back. I just really hate to see them lengthen the period of anguish by not getting control of love busters at some point. Ongoing affairs make this next to impossible....but when they can....it improves the possibility of getting the WS to come home. I actually do know the details of the above scenario....I talk to both husband and wife. The efforts of many good people to get them back together has been undermined by two things....the WS inability to separate from the OW, and BS inability to keep from going beserk every few days. It's been very hard to help WS husband return home...which I believe he would actually like to do....when the BS is threatening and raging, and both refuse to maintain no contact.

When a BS is made aware of the A (by whatever means), they do have a choice to make. Right that very second, as to which path they're going to take. Granted, the WS actions, words, additudes, etc. can make a huge difference in which path the BS chooses to take, but the point here is that every reaction the BS makes is a choice.

All of the source books quoted above do not say that anger, depression etc. are uncontrollable, they say the feelings of these emotions can be uncontrollable. In my mind there is a difference.
I have felt uncontrollable anger at my W more times than I can count, but that doesn't mean that I express that anger to her the way I feel it. Had I done that I have no doubt that we would be divorced today. Yeah, all those emotions do feel out of control, but I still have to make a choice as to whether I allow those emotions to escape me uncontrolled. That's where so many BS go wrong, especially in the beginning. They allow the emotions to get control of them and they make recovery that much more difficult.

<small>[ November 13, 2003, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: high_road ]</small>

Okay I lied I am back.

I don't dispute for one minute SOMEBODY has to step and try and save the marriage or it dies. It doesn't matter if its the BS or the WS.

My exception in all of this is the implication that the blame belongs to the BS.

Here is my take on the sequences of how a marriage is threatened.

Both get 1/2 of a point for the conditions that made the marriage vunerable to an affair.

The WS then gets 3 points for chosing to have an affair.

The BS gets 2 points for not seeking to rebuild the marriage.

The WS gets 1 point for failing to end ties with the OP.

Both share the blame to some extent for the marriage failing but the WS is 100% responsible for the choice to have an affair.

I think its reasonable to say the WS is more at fault for a marriage failing because of infidelity than the BS in almost all cases.
Final "blame" score WS 4 1/2 points BS 2 1/2 points.

High road.

Sorry I can't agree with your argument. Most therapist and authors dealing with adultery STRONGLY urge a betrayed spouse not to decide whether to divorce or not early on after discovery. They do so because the BS is too emotional to make such a life altering decision early in the recovery process.

Let me stress this they don't think a BS is capable of making such a decision because of the shock of discovering an affair.

If the general thinking among therapist is that BSs can't make decisions regarding divorce then isn't logical that BSs are simply too emotional PERIOD to act in a calm rational manner?

Yes I know therapist are trying to buy time in which to save the marriage but they are sincere in their belief that a BS is not rational early on.

Why? Because they have experience a very severe trauma. Indeed many therapist treat BSs for PSTD (post traumatic stress syndrome) Dr. Harley and Shirley Glass compare discovery of an affair to being raped. Can a rape victim make rational decisions regarding the rape within a few months of the rape? Not likely. Especially if she sees the rapist on a daily basis.

Peggy Vaughn, Dr. Lisa Mindle, Dr. Peter Griffith and Dr. Janis Spring all compare discovering an affair to the sudden death of a loved one. How well could you make important decisions regarding your family should your son, daughter or spouse suddenly die in a car wreck? Even with the passing of a couple of months.

All of the above experts compare recovering from an affair to the grieving. They even cite the steps in grieving in many of their books.

Do you know that it is standard practice for therapist to advise their patients to not make any life altering decisions for one year while grieving the loss of a close loved one.

Folks this is a very unrealistic expectation you have of expecting a betrayed spouse to act in a calm collective fashion as if they trying to decide between buying a bigger home or go back to college and get a graduate degree.

Why do you think organ donors must declare in advance their intentions? Why do you think living wills are so important? A shocked family member is not capable of making the rational decision to donate organs or pull the plug on life support upon discovering such a choice needs to be made. They are simply emotionally overwhelmed and cannot.

Since it has been stated both parties are MB users then I really am bothered by the continued laying of blame on the BS.

Who is really punishing whom? We do not know the motive of the BS but we do know she is in pain from the most traumatic of which she may ever experience.

We also know that if he is an active reader as claimed HE KNOWS THIS TOO! He can no longer claim "I never meant to hurt you" because he knows upon discovery that he is causing her pain equivalent to being raped or having a loved on die suddenly on you yet he continues the behavior that causes this pain.

We also know the odds are he has read the countless testimonies of the hurting BSs on MB.

Finally he could not miss any of the million and one threads constantly stressing ending affairs and the value of no contact.

Yet he does not do this.

So while I accept the premise both will have to eat from the painful plate of divorce if no one steps up....he should in all fairness have the larger helping to choke on by virtue of his own actions.

Again I don't argue that one of them must step up if they want to save the marriage. What I take exception is the argument that failure in the marriage will be the BS's fault if they don't step up. In the end it doesn't matter who has the larger share of blame but you have to recognize that blame will belong to both of them not just the and unforgiving punishing BS if she is indeed doing that.

stunned,

If someone implied (where???) that the lion's share of the burden for reaching recovery is on the shoulders of the BS....chere, I just don't see it (NOR do I agree with it!) This is a thread URGING BS to try their hardest in the face of grief, great adversity and unfairness to do their best to control their love busting and encourage their partners to work on the marriage. Normal or not, fair or not....it will undermine the efforts that the WS is willing to make to both leave the OP and work on the marriage. I don't want the BS to have a greater burden....shoot I'm a BS...but I do think that NOT sabotaging the process with LBs reaps HUGE benefits.

I think you just got cross-threaded with a few posters....cuz I'm don't see where anyone is arguing with you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But lets be fair here she is reacting not acting.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> That's my entire point. She's reacting to his actions and not acting in a way that serves what she says she wants - which is to recover her marriage.

For what it is worth, yes the affair is continuing and he is in fact living with the OW.

It is a tough road to face for her and I wouldn't ever want to be there. What I'm saying is that her actions aren't doing her any favors and are preventing reconcilliation because he is unsafe to come home. Why leave a safe harbor to walk into a hurricane that may never end?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Both share the blame to some extent for the marriage failing but the WS is 100% responsible for the choice to have an affair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you on this 100%. It is the WS that makes the tragic decision of going outside the marriage to get needs met. I am saying it isn't the BS's place to punish the behavior, and it won't help you recover. If you want to recover, both people have to step up to the plate.

The BS usually wants the WS to come crawling back in a penitant manner, court them, and beg for forgiveness. Honestly, I think that the WS should do these things. I'm not here to discuss shoulds, though. That's subjective. I'm here to discuss what works and happens. Generally, remorse and empathy for the BS's pain doesn't come until after withdrawal from the OP is over. That is usually some time into recovery. The BS usually wants to start there, and waiting to start recovery at that point will likely lead to never starting recovery at all.

<small>[ November 13, 2003, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

I'm not trying to get anyone to agree with my argument...I'm simply stating the facts as they happen to be in my case.

Also, I wasn't referring to deciding whether or not to divorce when I said what I said. I might not have been clear about that. I was talking about how the BS reacts to the WS after Dday. That's not the same as deciding whether or not to stay in the marriage, but with how you treat your spouse after this news is broken.
The thing is, that initial reaction (and the days and weeks after) can make or break the future of the relationship. Had I flew off the handle when my W told me of her A....yelled and screamed and blasted her about it...I really have little doubt that she would have walked out the door. She had been looking to do that for at least a year anyway. That would have given her another reason....why stay with a yelling, screaming maniac when I can have ________?

Also, the notion that the WS be the one that "fixes" the relationship....well, that's all well and good on paper, but how often does it really happen? I'm sure it does, but I would venture to say that it's a huge minority of the time.
Yeah, it should be that way, but what do we see here most times? The BS finds out and the WS puts them through more agony because they won't end the A on their own.
I do think that eventually the WS should put their all into making things right, but it usually does fall on the BS to do the majority of the work for the first while.

Again, I'm not trying to paint everyone with the same brush. Everyone is different and will go about things in different ways. I'm just talking about what happened in my situation and what I see in many other cases (here and elsewhere). That's all I can speak of.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
If someone implied (where???) that the lion's share of the burden for reaching recovery is on the shoulders of the BS....chere, I just don't see it (NOR do I agree with it!) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">star I actually got that impression from you and allow me to explain:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The truth is...it's grossly unfair for the BS to have do this at all....but that doesn't change the necessity to do it. The BS doesn't do it to coddle the WS either....they do it to recover their marriage...not create la la land for the WS. Lots of life is unfortunately unfair....but to get the results you want, sometimes it's necessary to do the impossible.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You used that argument to support the need for a BS to create a safe environment for the WS even though he is not doing in kind by continuing the affair and in this case actually living with the OW. It could be fair to assert he is using the other woman to leverage desired behavior from his BS before agreeing to return. An even greater love buster than being angry, resentfull and unforgiving.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is a tough road to face for her and I wouldn't ever want to be there. What I'm saying is that her actions aren't doing her any favors and are preventing reconcilliation because he is unsafe to come home. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with this but.....

Folks what bothers me is we have a tendency to hold a BS to a higher level of cognitive thinking when far more emotionally traumatized than the WS.

Why do we accept a Wayward Spouse wondering around in the "FOG" yet can't understand nor show sympathy for a BS reacting illogically to the intense pain of infidelity?

Its an unfair standard. Its an illogical standard. And if presented in the manner presented will be counter productive because it will encourage a BS to dig in rather than reach out.

There is a reason this BS goes back to his actions...they have traumatized her. Efforts need to be made to make her feel safe as well and that is not being presented nor being done.

Consider who feels the least safe of the two. Clearly its her. Most men are either the sole or greater bread winner. Men fair much better financially than women do in most cases a few years after a divorce. Men remarry quicker (mainly due to them not having to primary custody of the children). Men are less bitter for a shorter period than women after a divorce.

And these are common traits. In her case he actually has someone else he is living with. So she has a real person threatening her, her family, her marriage and her lifestyle.

What steps are being made to provide her with a safe environment?

Who is coaching the WS as to what he should NOT be doing if he wants to save his marriage. Clearly he is not taking any of the recognized steps to save his marriage. So why put the blame on her if she fails as well?

Tak he is not doing as you said is needed to give this marriage a chance:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you want to recover, both people have to step up to the plate.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can't really fault her for not wanting to step up to the plate when he is still out playing the field.

Now how to break this impasse is anybody's guess but I do strongly believe she will bow up and apparently she already has to suggestions that her behavior is equally detrimental at his.

Odds are that is exactly what she is doing and the approach you are taking is only adding to her conviction of being the injured party who needs not make amends.

Reads to me he only wants to save his marriage if met on his terms. That attitude needs to be addressed much more than her hostility.

It occurs to me rereading Takola's initial post and the many responses that we may not be doing a lot to help Takola with the problem that drove her, not the BS and not the WS to post. After all, she says that she is getting an ulcer (I hope meant figuratively and not literally) over her inability to get through to this particular BS, and others who behave in a similar way. It sounds as though Takola finds this situation of trying to help and not being able to to be enormously frustrating and that is what led to the original post.

I think it might be helpful to Tak if we shared our experiences in reaching others and/or being reached in difficult situations like this wwhen someone was behaving irrationally and in a self defeating way.

I know the best piece of advice I ever got on the subject of giving advice was from a fellow SLP who told me, when I was having trouble with an adult client, that when she found she was doing more than 50% of the work toward someone else's recovery, it was time to let them go. Maybe that has some application here.

As far as people being able to reach me when I'm the one being irrational, I have noticed that even though I may not listen and respond right away, at some point the lesson will "click". The less people harp on whatever it is, the faster it clicks. I find this with my H, too. I may think he's not listening, but days or weeks later he will say something that shows that he was.

I don't know if that helps.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> that when she found she was doing more than 50% of the work toward someone else's recovery, it was time to let them go. Maybe that has some application here.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now that's a scary thought. If that applied in marriage, especially in the case of an A, I think the divorce board be a whole lot bigger than the recovery board.
The thing is that marriage (as well as many other parts of life) is not fair a lot of the time. If everyone split ways or even just dished it back when things become unfair......well, draw your own conclusion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have noticed that even though I may not listen and respond right away, at some point the lesson will "click"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly. But in the case of infidelity, the way the BS responds to the WS (in many cases) determines how long it takes to "click"

Unfair, isn't it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by high_road:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> that when she found she was doing more than 50% of the work toward someone else's recovery, it was time to let them go. Maybe that has some application here.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now that's a scary thought. If that applied in marriage, especially in the case of an A, I think the divorce board be a whole lot bigger than the recovery board.
The thing is that marriage (as well as many other parts of life) is not fair a lot of the time. If everyone split ways or even just dished it back when things become unfair......well, draw your own conclusion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have noticed that even though I may not listen and respond right away, at some point the lesson will "click"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly. But in the case of infidelity, the way the BS responds to the WS (in many cases) determines how long it takes to "click"

Unfair, isn't it? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry, did you think I meant that a spouse should not do more than 50% of the work in recovery? Apparently I did not make myself clear. I was talking about in professional or volunteer relationships between someone who is seeking help (let's call her the Seeker) and someone providing that help (the Helper). My advice wasn't directed toward the BS because it wasn't the behaving spouse who posted with the problem, it was a Helper who is apparently frustrated with the Seeker's response, or lack thereof, to her help. My comments about giving more than 50% were not at all meant to aplly to a mrriage, because a marriage is different from a Helper/Seeker relationship.

And as to whether it is unfair or not that " But in the case of infidelity, the way the BS responds to the WS (in many cases) determines how long it takes to 'click" ", I really couldn't say.

So what advice would you offer Takola on how to get through to this BS before her figurative ulcer turns into a literal one?

Okay guys guess what......do see what happens when people do not want to listen to each other?

Takola I put myself deliberately in her shoes. I imagined my wife was still sleeping with the OM worse now moved in with him.

Tak in my book you are speaking waywardnese to some one who only understands betrayedese.

What I am saying is your message makes sense to those not emotionally involved BUT we are not your target audience she is.

So why is she so determined to disregard your message?

Simple you haven't validated her legitimate hurts and fears.

And because those haven't been acknowledge to her satisfaction she tunes you out.

Why I suspect because as far as she's concern there can be no talk of reconcilation as long as he is banging her and living with her.

Do you blame her? Does it matter if she isn't seeing it your way?

Did you notice that I bowed up to your position solely based on how you worded it? I have no emotional attatchment to this marriage. My WS is not still seeing the OM much less living with him. My WW threw herself into healing our marriage shortly after discovery. Instinctively went instantly to no contact. Was relieved the whole crazy mess was over. Yet you did as you put it "hit a nerve" in me.

And I reacted as I sensed she would react.

I did it on purpose. I wanted you to deal with her issues in order to get her to deal with the marital issues and eventually his issues as well.

You will never reach her unless you validate her sense of loss, injury and FEAR yes FEAR.

My gosh she is the most vunerable of the three parties involved in this mess. He has the OW. The OW already has standard of living and it will not lessen if he isn't adding to the joint income.

She stands to lose on both fronts. She will suffer financial should he stay with her. She will suffer emotionally if he stays. She loses bigtime in all of this.

I know you have pointed this out to her as an incentive to soften up but......

Have you pointed out her legitimate fears to her wayward husband? Have you let her know you went to bat for her?

Or does she feel its him, her, Tak and the rest of the cruel world against her?

You see she is the most isolated party in all of this. She is the most wounded party in all of this. She stands to lose the most in all of this.

Are you surprised she has taken a hard line? Are you surprised she is the least able to reach out?

You shouldn't be all the books indicate the BS is the most volatile of the two.

Tak champion her cause if you want to champion their marriage. She will not listen to you champion his cause as long as he is with her. She has the conviction that morally she is right...at this point in time that is the one lone thing she can beleive in the one source of security in her otherwise turned upside down world.

I normally don't post here but really think Takola made some very good points (although not sure I remember them all after reading the posts!).

Someone said, "the marriage could recover but the BS goes crazy and destroys any chance."

I believe this is so true, even in cases where adultery isn't involved.

Nothing justifies adultery, but I also believe that many spouses only see the other spouse's wrongs and they pat themselves on the back constantly as if they are the "good" and saintly spouse... it's self-righteous and ends up only pushing the other spouse away.

IF a couple wants their marriage to not end in divorce after adultery, there has to be forgiveness and a letting go of revenge, etc... sometime along the way. And if a person wants to live a peaceful life, he/she HAS to let go of anger, revenge, bitterness, etc... whether its towards a WS or towards someone else.

There are stages of grief (denial, anger, etc). Eventually a person reaches the acceptance stage. A person who does not reach that stage and who stays stuck in the anger stage is going to be a very miserable person. Obviously forgiveness, acceptance, etc. is going to take a conscious effort and work. It is natural to be very angry, bitter, etc. but it has to also be worked through and let go of... but it is a process.

I thought Starfish's story of the woman who was being eaten by rage is a really good example of how our own emotions, if not dealt with, etc., can literally eat us alive and destroy not only our relationships but also our own selves (both mentally and physically!).

<small>[ June 12, 2004, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>