Full,

I know that many here have used anti-d's to get through the roughest parts. The do help the mood swings. He fears "happy" pills because he is NOT happy and he should fear them, but most anti-d's don't make you "happy" as you know. The do often have the sideeffect of diminishing sexual drive.

I think you are going to see him sink further. You cannot imagine the internal struggle that he is going through. The one person's posts that I think you should read is Stunned Dad's. His situation is close to your H's and he has struggled for a year, but is now getting a handle on this.

I know you have your struggles in this, and I know you have your pain, and guilt, but you KNOW what happened and perhaps why it happened, and you KNOW how you feel toward your H and your marriage. He has only your words, and frankly they don't mean much. If you do address your issues, it will help both of you, but still he will struggle with how he FAILED. How he is NOT enough for you.

You had an H that seemed to be pretty helpful, and engaged in your marriage, and he did not trust you. He sensed something about you and how you approached things that unsettled him OR he was very low in self-confidence all along.

My bet is it was a bit of both, which suggests that you try to understand what you did that caused him his unease. It will be a clue on how to modify your behavior and perceptions. If he did have self-confidence issues they are worse, if he didn't he does now.

Full, this is going to take a lot of time and patience, and I think it will be a long while before you have the H you had before. Your old marriage is really over, and now it will require that the two of you build a new one. I will tell you that it is very common for more anger to arise in the 4-6 month period if you two are really starting into recovery.

All of this just takes time. It sounds as if you are doing very well. He will need a lot of reassurance from you, and consistent and HONEST behavior from you. You must understand he may have had concerns but he didn't really expect or detect the lies, so he has no confidence that he could detect them in the future.

So keep up the good work, but realize that a lot of damage has been done. People frequently do not understand how important trust is in a marriage until it is gone and must be rebuilt. He trusted you with his life and deepest emotions. He will take awhile.

God Bless,

JL

I wanted to take a minute to comment on the quality of people on this site. I know that other than the first day, I haven't posted much but I have been a frequent visitor to this site as a reader. TooMuchCoffeeman, Maxlo3, Coach3530, and particularly Johnh39, Stunned-Dad and JustLearning: Your posts have meant so much too me (whether responding to FOSAR's posts or my own). For someone to take their own time to help people who are in situations such as ours in such a genuine, positive way goes beyond what you would expect of people. You are all first class people, and I have the upmost respect for you all.

I guess I still feel kind of numb, but I have a little more air than I did in the first week. My wife has been everything she could possibly be in terms of helping me with all of this. I can sense that there is much more to this than I understand right now (honestly, if you knew us before you would not have had any doubt about whether there was love in our relationship). Everything she says seems to be sincere (yes, it did before too, but there seems to be a hell of a lot more honestly involved this time....after all it can't be easy answering the questions I have for her).

I think Johnh39/JustLearning....you almost seem to know me better than myself right now. Everything in your posts seem to be how I feel, and how I think I'm going to feel. Please don't underestimate how your supportive and insightful words have been in helping me though these first couple of weeks. They have really helped to give me some hope that the world I knew may not be gone forever.

At this point, I know that I am willing to work for the marraige and the woman I have always loved. I feel like a yo-yo right now with my emotions - highs and lows happen at the drop of a hat I and don't seem to have any control over when they happen...the whole story of our relationship from the start is complicated...and was a lot of work on both of our parts to come through (with the death of our daughter under already difficult circumstances to say the least). I guess I believe that if there is anyone in this world that I'd be willing to go through all of this for, it would be FOSAR.

I am not much of a writer, but you can be assured that I will frequent this site, awaiting any insight any of you may have, and please... if you have questions to help formulate your opinions, I am an open book for people such as you who want to help out of the kindness of your own hearts and experience.

Thank all of you!

Coping Day to Day...

Since I've posted my last message, I've read a thread posted in the emotional needs section of this site by my wife. I can't ignore the fact that this situation has all been fed/fuled by her need for attention, but I am where I am, regardless. I just can't give what I feel has been already lost from our relationship right now. But I do have some hope that what has been lost can be rebuilt, by the supportive people on this site. I just wanted to post this where others that have been following our situation can gain more perspective.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am the husband of FOSAR. I know my wife has been reading matieral on this site as I have been. She is reading the positive articles and gaining power with her confidence that she is going to address her personal issues, and improve herself as a result of this. I am, however disheartened by her reaction to this thread.

I know from conversation before she posted this that in a way, she felt as if I was making this whole situation worse by the way of have been behaving (mostly sad....and hurt). I have been in a 'hole' so to speak, and even though I have always been strong emotionally and mentally, this has hit me in an unexpected, and powerless way.

I think that in a way, she was looking to show me that I need to be making more of an effort to 'make deposits in the love bank' and follow the numberous other very helpful suggestions on this website to improve our relationship. I have read many of them myself. They are great. I see that. Problem is...I am not there yet. And I really don't think she understands why. She compares this to the times that she has been hurt and abused (none of which were being cheated on), and tells me she knows how I must feel. I know many people have hurt and abused her...but I have never been one of them. I'm used to showing her the respect she knows I've always been true to. I'm still trying to get past how happy she made me to believe she was, and how she vowed she would never do this "BECAUSE" of how she valued our relationship. Yes, we did have discussions about it. Even though I believed her when she told me she would never do it, it didn't change the fact the I believed she was capable of it. Others on this site have told me that our relationship could become better as a result of this...and if I could truly trust her, I know that that could be true. Sometimes I feel like I saw signs that should have told me it was coming. I guess that should have been a red flag, but I thought it was my own issues of distrust. I'm willing to admit, that I had plenty of warning signs even though I do/did always believe she did love me, and this would prevent her from doing anything that would threaten that.

I was married once before, to an alcoholic who didn't want to face her problems. My efforts to help eventually became intrusive, and controlling. I never expected that marraige to end either. I couldn't change the way I felt. She was destroying herself, and couldn't help being bitter to watch her do it to herself (I wasn't controlling to the point to stop her from going to get the booze, but my attitudes towards it, I'm sure were evident). I know our relationship deteriorated from the pain and bitterness of what was happening, until she eventullally left me. I also know I will never know what was in her head - about who I was and why I reacted/behaved the way I did.

Discouraging: Without even reading the rest of the posts in this thread, my wife became agitated with others not understanding her side of it, that she went up to bed.

She is going through a rediscovery of herself right now, and, understandable so, is positive about where she is headed. I couldn't agree more. But again, I'm not there yet, and I know she really doesn't understand that. She is looking for positive reinforcement in the steps she is making, and is used to me being her primary support system. I feel like it is not in me to give right now, at least not to the level that she is expecting. She had many very good ideas and has put work into developing theories to move ourselves forward from here. I've been feeling pressure from her that I'm not doing enough to help fix this situation. Though, trust me, from someone who really knows, she has been through one tough experience to the next without time to deal with the last before the next one hit. I can tell you that for her to have unresolved issues after what she has been through doesn't surprise me in the least (even though she always claimed otherwise), because there is so much there to choose from that could be contributing.

I can say, that I wouldn't be still here (living in the same house) if I didn't love her more than I could describe. I can't see my life without seeing her, and my kids, every day. My world has been built around her, and at this point, I can certainly say that I can't imagine my life any other way. This whole thing has scared me more than anything in my life, because this time it seems like I'm having to make my own decisions on working things (my ex left without wanting to work on things), and my path has been cloudy. Even though she says that she will do anything to see us through this, in certain situations she seems like this is already too much pressure for her to deal with. I pray that that is not the case, because I know I have a long way to go yet. She realizes that she has done someting terrible, but I'm pretty sure she doesn't know what it is like for a spouse to move past this, no matter how much **** has happened to her in the past. Our relationship was built on each other...not on our pasts...I don't feel like I should be the one being dumped on for the actions of her past relationships. But I am willing to accept that they have had an effect on her. I feel like if this is getting to her the way it is right now, that if she doesn't learn to deal with the fact that that is the way it is right now, and I can't change it, that we are more doomed than I expected. I'm not willing to fake anything about our relationship. She has always felt what I feel about her, I have made sure of that. Right now I just can't give her what she is used to getting, because I'm certainly not even near being able to provide that yet. I hope she can come to understand that before she gives up too.

I'm painting some insecurities here, that maybe I'm just sort of figuring out for myself right now. I feel like my wife loves me, but parts of me fear that she won't have the patience to see through I know is going to be a tough recovery process to/for me. I have gotten clear indications that she is getting frustrated by my response to her efforts (still only 10 days since I found out here). I just don't feel like I have the power to give what she needs back right now. I'm still hurt and sad. Hurt that our love didn't snap her out of the problem before it got here. Sad that there is going to be a period of instability, that neither of us know if we can take the pressures of being the "giver/taker" in the proper proportions to see us through this. I suspect that this is going to be harder for my wife than she expects. She is still, understandably, focusing on what she needs to fix about herself. I have respect for that, don't get me wrong....but it doesn't change how I am feeling. Maybe it should....but it doesn't.

We have had a great relationship...and honestly...we made love 6-7 nights a week. I kid you not, it was rare that we didn't. This is all part of why I always believed that there were no issues present. I certianly believe she didn't do this because of sex. There was never a loss of connection when we made love. At least I didn't feel there was. And satisfaction was never an issue, unless she is the greatest actor on the face of the earth (doubtfull). Everything I know tells me there is way more to this than I can possibly understand right now.

Still living day to day...but at least dealing with it a bit better now.

If you have been following our posts and responding, PLEASE READ!!!!

I want to start by saying that I do appreciate all that you are doing to provide advice for us, and of course your observations have also been read by both of us. My husband and I have both agreed that this site provides a lot of helpful tools and information. While my husband feels so understood by you all, and understandably so (You have been the victums of a CHEATER) but he is at the point now after reading your posts that he would rather listen to what you all have to say, than listen to what I have had to say.
One thing that you have to remember people. Is you don't know who I am or where I am right now. You know where he is and are only speculating where I am from your own experiences with your spouses.
When I am reading things like "She wants it to all go away because of the guilt that she is feeling, and therefore rushing you for her sake" or "It appears that she is only thinking of myself when she am asking him to TRY to think positive about things" just to name a few comments that have disturbed me greatly.
After reading your posts to this thread and the others in the Emotional Needs section, it is apparent that I am severely understood with my intentions to suggest that positive thinking may help him through this. A few things I have gathered from your responses are:

1. No matter what you all think, I do infact understand what he must be feeling and sympathize with the pain that he is going though and understand that I was the cause of it.

2. Also, I am no where near giving up and I will give him whatever time it takes to get through this come HELL or HIGH WATER because he means the world to me.

3. My words in these threads are not of a selfish nature although you have all taken them that way. There is no longer a selfish bone in my body. My feet are planted firmly on the ground and my head is out of the clouds.

4. In the past ten days, I have visited a lot of my own issues and have realized that I have been in denile for too long and that is what got us where we are. I have vowed to not only be honest with him, but to be honest with myself. I know what a horrible person I am for doing this to him.

5. My suggestions for positive thinking and trying to move forward are not of a selfish nature and thinking that it will help ME cope better. I obviously just have different coping mechanisms than any of you. The comparison to being hit by a semi is very ironic. I realize this is so for him for sure!!!. I know I have also been hit by a FEW semies before (Maybe not the same exact semi, but still very large trucks. I have experienced similar feelings. I am not stranger to feeling betrayed, lied to, walked on , and trying to understand why if someone loves you, why would they hurt you so bad? BEEN THERE ! The point is I am such a different person than all of you.
When a truck hits me I know for my own survival I have to take a positive approach and find ways to move on.

6. Another observation that you have seemed to all make is that I expect by asking him to make positive steps in his own recovery that it is for him to get over it NOW!!! That is not at all what I expect. I understand that it could be months and even years before we will see progress, I understand that. The only thing I have been saying, is if by thinking positive whenever posible and trying to replace negative tapes with positive ones may only help repare it quicker. The difference between a year for example and a couple of years to get to the same point in recovery. Because I love him so, I just hate to see him in so much pain and want to see him try to pull out of the depression and make steps forward.

7.Also, i do realize that he may not be ready for the step of positive approach yet, and I understand that, but I see nothing wrong with making suggestions that from my experiences have helped me though it easier.

8. I understand that there is a damper on his spirit and it may take a while to recover that. But I have seen it way too many times where depression takes someone over and ruins their spirit and pushes them down a road of their own self distruction. For such a wonderful guy, I would just hate to see that happen to him, thus, am trying to suggest ways that could make it easier for him to get through this.

9. I no longer have a selfish bone in my body! Everything I think of, and all of my energy has now been put into what can make him feel better and what can help the marriage (because I know that is what he wants also)

Well, after reading your posts last night, especially the ones under emotion needs, it is apparent that you all see me as a liar and a selfish person. I don't blame you all for thinking that knowing what I have done because that is exactly where I was when I commited the betrayal. But what you all have to understand is I am no longer there. To be able to live with what I have done, I can only be honest with not only him, but myself also and stop living in denile. Unfortunately, you all now have him believing that I am still being selfish and lieing. I know that may have not been intentional but he is now thinking he can believe what is read on here moreso than what comes from my mouth. After losing my credibility I can only expect that he has a hard enough time believing anything I say, but I think he wants to believe that I am sincere and indeed trying to change. Some of your responses have put him in the place that he thinks that I don't understand at all what he is going through and that I am not going to be patient for him to come around. Again, I can expect all of this, as all of you are in the same boat as him. You have been at the point of betrayal and can see it no other way. But...I do believe that you don't understand how much of a dose of reality I have had and that if given the chance, he will trust me again IN TIME! Not in 10 days! I have never even implied that he should be there in such a short time.
I have decided to let this be an avenue for his healing and seek my councelling with someone who understands me. Also, though MC, he may understand all of this better also. If it had of been in my control, I would have been through atleast one session with a councellor already. I called the very next day after this happened, but problems getting the insurance information has slowed the process down. Like I was saying, this site may be helping him in some ways, and I am not about to inhibit that. And I will continue to read the posts of others and his also, to see where things are at, but I don't think it is a good idea that I post here any longer because i am completely misunderstood. Please don't take that personally, I understand where all of you are, you have also been betrayed, but believe me when I say it is evident that you really don't know where I am heading with this whole positive approach thing. I didn't understand that my suggestions to him were coming off as pressure, and now that I do realize that, I will be backing off and giving him whatever time he needs. I do believe once we get in to see the MC, they will say the same sort of things and he may indeed listen when someone else suggests it .

One last thing I want to mention is there is a lot about our history that you don't understand and that may be why you can't put all of the pieces together.
This has not been even mentioned yet, but up until this was exposed 10 days ago, we were involved in "THE LIFESTYLE" Yep, you guessed it.....SWINGING!!! Well, you are all thinking right now, well...that was a bad idea!!! Both my husband and I knew that I enjoyed the attention, but it was not realized that it was at a dangerous level to a point of addiction. The reasons for my wanting to engage in the life style were for the reasons of attention only!! His reasons were for the fun of it all. It was never about sex for me. Although sex with my hubby has never been meaningless, sex with others was. It was all about the attention. This I know corrupted my mind when it comes to the sacredness of sex. That along with my need for attention led me down the wrong path. Because I never admitted to myself or to him that this was an addiction that this was and addiction, I can't blame anyone but myself for letting the lifestyle continue, but it was obvious that the lifestyle was something that he enjoyed for other reasons.
Of course, we have given up the lifestyle for ever now, and have come to the realization that there are never any right reasons for concenting to let your partner engage in sexual activity with another person. I know I still have issues there also. Upon getting through this, I want to renew our vows. I want to have a marriage that has no infidelity or adultery whether it is concentual or not. I want him and only him.

So, like I said you won't be hearing from me again! Well, maybe I can't say that, but atleast not for a while. I have chosen to seek different avenues to help me through my part of this and our joint efforts. It is just apparent to me that speaking with people who don't understand where I am won't help a darn thing. I can only hope that the things you people are saying to my husband will help him through this. I can also only hope that he sees my sincerity through effort and Love and an attempt to solve my own insecurities so that we can move on in a healthy and happy marriage. EVENTUALLY !!!
Thanks again all !!

Well, that is the one part that has been left out of all of this. Don't think for a minute that I don't feel responsibility in this happening. At the time, I was assured by FOSAR that this was not something I had to worry about it (though I did anyway). She knows that it was always important to me for us to stay connected...though it is evident that she never really was anyway. Her post seems to indicate that she believes this changes something, and it very well may for many people - for me, it doesn't change a damn thing. What we did, we discussed between each other...and were always strictly 'same room'. There was no breakage of trust in those situations, and I didn't feel violated by that.

I can't help but to feel like FOSAR's last post was a parting shot from this site. That it was "Before I go, you should all know that I'm not as far in the wrong as you all paint - here is something that may change how supportive you've been to S+H - he brought it on himself".

Some have had strong words for her here, and she writes this off as people not knowing our situation enough to understand. But as much as she has been hurt in her life, she doesn't understand how this is affecting me, and how deep it goes. I know she doesn't.

18 month to two years is a good estimate of your approximate recovery time. Can be twelve months, can be three years, but is usually closer to 18 months. This is not a short-term project.

Hello,

I wish you both luck. I have been a university professor for over 30 years and have seen colleagues during this time engage in the "lifestyle" as well. Almost always this lifestyle evenutally lead to the destruction of the marriage and the special intimacy. Some of my friends said that even if they were in the same room the jealousy was ever present. I do know one couple that has been successful but all of the others have failed.
This is just my opinion but I have a hunch that this previously lifestyle may in the long run make it easier to accept the recovery process.
For most men the thought of the images of the wife with someone else is overwhelming. Hopefully this will not be the same for you although the trust issue is the same.
I wish you both luck because it does seem that you both truly and deeply love each other but sometimes it may not be enough.

how often have we BSs herd the voices from those that have betrayed us, telling us to "just get over it!" or when in the mood to be civil they say, "please just get over it." and in fact isn't that what this dear lady is saying? so some one pleasee tell me...how is it that she isn't being selfish anymore?...how much more self involved could she be? this wasn't about her H? well here's a news flash...it sure as h#ll is now!

well here's something to think about. this isn't something that a loving person with deapth of soul and caring and just get over! the betrayal of many in this situation reach into our very being.

myself as an example. all i could think of was my WW laying in bed with this OM either complaininmg about me or laughing at me. or sharing with hiim the secret things i shared with her...i mean my closest thoughts...things i wouldn't ever think about saying out loude to any other person on earth...and all that time she was telling him everything...joking with him about my feelings, my beliefs, "my childish principles!"

could some one explain to me how i'm just suppose to get over that kind of hurt? could some one tell me why i'm suppose to just get over it?

sorry to all you cheaters out their from all we betrayed... you're all in the right! how dare we the betrayed, be so super sensative?...how dare we be depressed...how dare we not just not get on with or lives?

sorry...but this is how it sounds to me.

coach

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I no longer have a selfish bone in my body! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm... somehow I missed this.

I am selfish, my wife is selfish, my kids are selfish, my neighbors, friends, family members and aquaintances are all selfish. I have no reason to believe there are any living exceptions to that observation. Harley's POJA is based on acknowledging both the selfishness (Taker) and the selflessness (Giver) within each of us. Please accept this from me with respect, as someone who has been there, done that: "If you ignore your Taker, you will destroy your marriage." I am serious. I tried to be self-less in my marriage, and that denial of the selfishness within me made me try to do things that I could not sustain. Eventually, I crashed. From what I have read of Harley, it happens to everybody who tries it, sooner or later. Don't go there. Please. FOSAR, if you believe what you wrote that I quoted above, then you are not out of denial yet, you are just trading one set of false beliefs for another.

<small>[ November 17, 2003, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

John,
I had decided that I would just read the submissions and not actually reply, but it was evident to me that you deserved a response after what you had to say.
John, I know what you are saying but there is a difference between selfishness that allows us to take care of yourself and do things that you have always desired to be true to yourself, and the selfishness that drives you to do things you desire at the expence of someone else. Big difference between them. I guess that is what I should have said. All I was saying that everything I am doing right now is to help with my damoms and sustain whatever love is left in my marriage. Of course there must be a taker in there somewhere but I see it as this, I know it is very hard to wake up in the morning and look in the mirror, I still have a long life ahead of me and know if I will be able to live with my self as a person and if anyone else desires to live with me, then there are many things about me that I MUST change. Becoming completely Honest with myself aswell as my husband is #1.
I don't believe that statement was as much of a false belief as you may relize, just a poor choice of words. I should have said this:
"I am no longer the same self-centred person that I was. I want to do good things for people. I don't want to conduct myself in any fashion that will tempt me to lie or hurt another person." I am really trying here. None of you seem to really realize just how much. And it seems that everything I say in here is completely misinterpretted. And you know what....I don't blame you. You see me like your own cheating spouses. I am certainly not saying I am an acception, but I know that I am trying harder than some, maybe not all. I have turned to God again and returned to church after not being for 15 years. (Even though my husband is not currently a believe) I made the decision to go to church because I know I have lost my way and need guidance. Since this happened I have not missed a Sunday and don't plan to. There has been some talk that he will consider going with me at some point, but he is not ready and I accept that. But I will continue to go myself because I believe it is necissary for me to get on the proper path. Second of all, my counceling is very important and just not for the sake of my marriage. I have a lot that still haunts me that I need to deal with. I believe these unresolved issues are which caused my poor judgement which lead do distruction in my marriage. So if you see that this is selfish than I guess my statement was misleading. But, I certainly don't think that any of this is at the expence of others, or will at any point hurt anyone or anything. I can only see that the efforts to help myself will indeed help others also.
Well, I thought that I should clarify this. Thanks again for your insite. I do know that for obvious reasons you are going to understand where my husband is and relate to his situation. Please don't hesitate to offer your words of incouragement to him. But, I also do know that although you may be comparing me to the behaviors of your wife at the time, maybe she did put in a lot of effort but maybe just in a different way, and maybe she was still lieing or being self-centred throughout the healing process.I don't know your situation. But....believe me when I say, I do see the pain he is in and know that I am responsible, and I will never do another thing to hurt him. I am not just saying that because I have be CAUGHT! It is because it has woke me up to alot of things to face the truth about my self as a person. It is very hard to live with myself right now and I deserve that, but to only make steps to improving myself, that is really all I feel I can do. Of course one of my main priorities is to make it clear to my husband how much I do love him and that I will be here as long as it takes for him to get through this. I have never loved someone so much. I know that makes it hard to understand why I did this, but all I can say is I am now being honest with myself that all of these years I have been in denile about alot of things and not facing the issues that were distroying my spirit and thus put me down the wrong path.
I guess I am rambling again, but just speaking from the heart.
Thanks again!
And God Bless To You! I hope the best for you in your recovery also. I will be interested to continue to follow your story and see how things are going for you.
Take Care !!!

<small>[ November 17, 2003, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Full of Shame and Regret ]</small>

FOSAR, Please check out your very own thread over in recovery:

For Full Of Shame And Regret (FOSAR)...

Full,

Ok, you have missed something really BIG here. You came here asking for advice on how to help your H. You posted your thoughts, and your remorse for what you have done. You then asked how to help? YOu asked shouldn't he be doing something right now to help rebuild? You asked many questions.

What you got if you will reread this thread is advice on how to do this. Advice on what he is likely to be feeling. Advice on how you really don't see where he is coming from. Note the focus was on your H because that was the question you asked.

You may not realize this but some of the people reading and posting are WS, some are neither BS or WS. IF you have questions and issues YOU would like to discuss people here will do their best.

You have never indicated whether or not you read Stunned Dad's or his W's posts. If you have not please do read them.

Further, you will not realize this until you have read here for a year or so, but while the details of your relationship with your H may differ some, and the details of your A may differ some, the general and overall effects and responses are almost textbook. Now I know no one likes to hear this, but it is uncanny how all of us humans seem to respond similarly to similar situations. You and your H are not really different.

Most of the posters here are not attacking you. What is being attacked is some of your assumptions about your H. THey are called "disrespectful judgements", DJ's. Read about them in Harleys articles.

Your posting is helping. It is helping us to see who your H is dealing with, allowing better advice, and it is helping us learn about you, thus allowing us to address your issues. Some of your issues are beyond the abilities here to help, but those of guilt, frustration with your H, feelings for OM, whatever, people here know about and have read about.

If YOU ask for help in dealing with your H and his healing, then you get advice directed toward him and how you have affected him. If you ask for help in dealing with your feelings then you get advice on how to address that and how your H can help or not help you handle them.

So far you have only asked the first set of question and therefore you have only gotten one set of the answers.

If you ask for people to feel sorry for you, you may not get that, but you will get empathy, and some of use have a pretty good idea of what will happpen as you get counseling for your issues. You will then face more guilt than you have before.

So I would encourage you to keep posting and keep posting with your H. If you finally decide to post but post separately then you could set up a situation like Poe and her H, Silverthorn, the do not read each other's posts.

So don't run off angry because you got what you asked for, but NOT in a form you expected. People here will help you, they are trying to now, by response to your posts and your H's posts.

Hang in there Full.

God Bless,

JL

Low - Orbit

Your post assumes that our friends and family know what has happened. Not the case. For the most part, I agree that I'm not about to tell everyone I know that this happened. Actually, I haven't told anyone this has happened. My wife's best friend knows...from my wife telling her (after the fact). I would consider her my friend too, but have talked with her about if VERY little as she is obviously uncomfortable talking to me about it.

My parents are easy - if this has any chance of working they cannot know. They would not see her with respect ever again. But they live quite far away, and it isn't hard to hide if from them.

I have had some trouble with her parents though. We see them quite regularly (though I have not been able to face them since this has happened). I spoke with my wife about the feelings about 'putting on a show' for them, to make them believe everything is fine. It's not. Far from it. I will not be able to avoid them this weekend, as her sister is getting married. I'm hoping I'm going to deal with this ok. But I'm not sure I will. However, her parents do know that we have had our struggles recently with finances. So, they have assumed that our low key nature and uninvolvement has been because of that. I feel increadibly awkward at even the thought of trying to carry a regular conversation with them. And I'm certainly not going to be close with my wife, the way all are used to seeing us.

The only people I honestly wanted to know about this was her parents, just for how it would make it easier for me to deal with them if they knew what I was going through.

My wife is afraid that (as with anyone else who were to know), that her parents would lose respect for her if they knew she did this. I know she doesn't want to be that person, but she was. She said that though she wouldn't 'stop' me if I went ahead and told them, she made it clear to me that I would be making it that much harder on her for her to get through her own issues. She thinks not telling anyone is the best path for us to follow.

I'm not a good liar. She can't believe that I want them to know. She comes up with everything in the book of how it would devistater her parents. She says them knowing would destoy us. She says it will make people assume that we aren't going to last and it will break us down. She says that telling them would be exibiting my own selfish behavior. We are still waiting for our coucellor to call us to book our first appointment. It's been almost two weeks, and I've just realized that I haven't talked to anyone but my wife about this sitation, except for here on this board.

What do the books say about this? Should we be hiding this from everyone, including her parents?

Seems like right now we won't be telling anyone. But I think if it is an importand part of her facing what she is done (by what experts in the field) then I'll want her to. She thinks that the help we are seeking will tell us to keep it a secret from everyone (so we have one less issue - but to me it creates several others). She just keeps reminding me that it will make everything harder on everyone but me.

Am I the one being selfish here?

I am filled with doubt on whether this site is helping things with us. It sure feels like it is hurting. I have said it once, and I will say it again, that because I am the cheater, you can only see me as a completely selfish and dishonest person. Maybe I have done selfish and dishonest things but I certainly know that I am working toward this changing that all. Because he sypathizes with you all right now he looks as if EVERYTHING you all suggest and every advice you have to offer should be written in stone. Atleast I see it that way !
Yes....it is true that at day one when telling the parents first came up, I was feeling a lot of selfishness about facing my parent and not wanting them to lose pride in me.
In the past while looking at the situation more carefully I realized the guilt is what I need to pay the consiquences of what I have done. I have told him that I will do anything he feels I need to do to help him and volunteered to pick up the phone and call and tell them tonight. I only asked him to see what this may do to them right now. They are in the midst of wedding plans with my sister and the arrival of her baby in March. In the past my parents have carried a lot of worry about the path of mine and my sisters security. In the past few years knowing I was with a wonderful man and had two beautiful children has reasured them that I am taken care of. My sister is 30 years old now and just moved out with her fiance 6 months ago after never leaving home before. They didn't have a life until six months ago. They have had their marital problems themselves mostly to do with difference of opinion due to the path of me and my sister. They are just finally seeing that they can actually move on to their retirement happily knowing their daughters are taken care of. I have just laid out the facts to him that yes....I will tell them.... if he believes it would help him. I have just asked him to consider what it will do to THEM....not me !!! Of course no one person wants to face shame at their parents, but I am willing to do that if that is the RIGHT thing here. But as long as we are working toward getting to an even better place in our relationship I can only see that we may regret this looking back on it later by saying that we hurt them for no reason. However, I am still willing to do that. I would like to hear myself what a councelor has to say about this, as an unbias person who can say whether this can help or hurt our situation, but I do believe all of you that are hurt out there, may have the belief that because you had to face it with your family, why shouldn't we. I am sure those of you who have gone on to renew your relationship and are moving on after several years have wondered was it worth it hurting my family. If he is to end this right now, it is inevitable that the truth would come out anyway whether it hurt them or not. He chose not to end it and I am very thankful to be given the chance. Up until a day or so ago, he felt as if it was also the right thing to not tell the parents, but after hearing several posts here and taking your words as gosple, that no matter what I have showed him that my attempts are to change, he wants to punish me further. I can understand that I guess. I will do what ever it takes. Telling our friends, telling our neighbor and people I even see more often then my parents doesn't bother me. They mean a lot to me too but telling them, I know they won't feel responsible to fix this, my parents will, that is just the way they are. These people are my flesh and blood. This will only leave them in concern for the stability of their Grandchildren first and foremost. It would horrify them to think that they would be raised in a broken family.
Of course the truth is there are STRONG stability issues here of course, but we both want to believe we will get past this and will one day be STABLE again. Whether it takes 2 years or 10 years, but if we do make it through this one thing won't change through them knowing, that they will live the rest of their lives worrying about their daughter and their grandchildrens happiness and security. Because of the steps I am making to better my future I, know that they will only see positive changes in me and not even know why.
I think it is also important to realize that when he sat down to write his last post he was in one of his harded moments. His angriest and most confused state. He goes in an out of it. I know that is completely normal. But he goes through times where he believes I am sincere and then the next minute doubting that he can believe a word I say. He does believe that by telling him how it worries me about how it would affect my family, he thinks that I am just laying on guilt trips because I have my own reason for them not knowing. Assuming that I am still having selfish thoughts and then lying about it. I think you all telling him how selfish I am even now, and that I can't be trusted is unfair. You don't know how this has pointed me on such a different path of thinking. I have accepted that I have to face the shame to sufficiently relize what I have done. Believe me I feel alot of shame, and our best friend for one definately thinks much less of me now. But it was necissary. He doesn't see that she is also and avenue for him to talk to. She cares alot about him also. She has been nothing but a GOOD FRIEND to both of us. I took it on myself to tell here knowing that her support could help both of us whether it sacrificed my pride or not. I understand what he is facing with my parents I see that this would help him, but really it will hurt 3 other people who i also thought were very dear to his heart. Does that not seem selfish also. The one thing I have learned is those who are the victims get into a selfish pattern of their own. I stongly believe that the selfish acts of others inflicted on me over the years has turned me down a path to commit selfish acts of my own and lashing out at the world....I am hurting...who the hell cares who else is?. That has been me for far too long and I am changing that. Although that is not a concious thought I have done enough reading of my own over the years in self help books etc. to know that this is the pattern that the victim very often falls in also.
I am not calling him selfish...please understand that what I am saying is that I don't want him to fall in the trap. Those who have been abused become the abusers.(If the pain is not handled in appropriate ways) ie. councelling, reading, self realizations etc.
From what he has written in anger this evening, I can only imagine the responses that will come back.
He has assumed that asking him to think about this thouroughly before unleashing this monster into their hands, only means that I am thinking of myself, and I know that some of the answers will be indicating that you all still think I am being selfish and should be punished. Some of the advice I am expecting: "Yes her parents should know to face her guilt and their loss of respect for her."
"My parent knew right away and we had to deal with it."
My question to you all is this, now that you know you are in recovery, do you really feel it helped, or could possibly just add another hurdle to get over. Is hurting the innocent people really necessary. I am sure the day you found out, many of you in haste stormed out and told everyone to gain strength from their sympathy. If you could have brought yourself to a place to think of others at the time would you still have unleashed the monster. Would you do it all the same again. The important thing to realize here is that it was his choice when he first found out to not say anything. He felt as if we were going to work this out, the negative vibes from other knowing could only bring us down. So he chose not to.
I know you people are all hurt by your own situations and will be speaking from the heart in what you think is and was the right thing to do in your own situation. But just remember, you know the feeling of being cheated on, but you don't know us and our history to know that what may have worked for you, will not necissarily work in our situation. We love eachother a lot and have faith that we will indeed get through this, and if we do, I just do not see how this will help things. But like I said, if the advice of a councelor says that it is necessary for my healing aswell as his and our healing that they know. If necissary I will still do this!!!
It just disturbs me that even though this is way too soon for him to TRUST anything that I say, that he takes what you all have to say way more important than what I have to say.
I did get my back up tonight and may have said a few things that indicated that I thought he would be acting selfish if he did this, but that is because I am very far from being selfish about this right now....I am just asking this question, it is really necissary that they be hurt by this, I have already seen them struggle through so much pain. My new leaf on life is to not ever hurt others intentionally EVER again. I feel like this is going back on what I may be trying to change about my selfishness also. But....I will also do anything to help things for him. If he fears hiding from them, he doesn't have to hide his stress or unhappiness around them. They already know he is. We are in financially stress right now and that is no lie. That is the assumption they have made. But they also know that any married couple has issues and get through them. Although this is much more serious than financial issues, he does not have to put on an act around them. He has showed me affection in the past ten days, which I am blessed with as I am sure that some at this point don't have the privilage to receive so soon. i know he loves me. He may not be mauling me and hanging on my at my sisters wedding, but really, he is not expected to. Also, with my sisters wedding and baby on the way, i can't help but think that she will hate me for raining on her parade by unleasing this. No matter which way you may look at it just seems like hurting innocent people to me.
He thinks that telling them may give him someone to talk to. Well....it is understandable that he feels he needs someone to talk to. I hope that councellor can fill that need for him, because it is them that is really going to help him through this when they know EVERY BIT of the situation. NOT JUST PARTS...as you all do.
Again, I just worry that what you all are saying is being taken as not only words of support by him, but words of complete accuracy. I just can't see how any advice from here can be without a shadow of a doubt be the right thing because you just don't know our particular set of circumstance. You don't know how close we have been up until I made the mistake, you don't know how we have already been through many hard obstacles together, that we fought so hard from day one to be together when there were forces against it. (Ex Husband requiring restraining order is only one hurdle) and knowing that our love will get us through anything.
Me doing this had absolutely nothing to do with my feelings for him. I love him more than words can ever say, and consider myself so fortunate that he didn't walk out on us. I know he believes that I love him, maybe he thinks it is not to the degree that he thought before this, but a councelor will help him see that he was not the reason for my lack of judgement. I made the biggest mistake of my life and I am facing that, and I know I need to deal with a lot of things. I can't believe I risked it all for my selfish need and addiction to attention, but you can all be rest assured that I have never been so Hell bent on fixing anything right now. All I want is for him to eventually have even more trust in me than ever before and see that I am becoming a better person.
Anyway, I have had mixed feeling about this board since the beginning, on one hand I think the support you have given him has been wonderful, helping him to not feel along. But I do believe in a sense that you all on here are the only ones that he seems to listen to right now and I think he would believe any advice you had to give no matter what there was to back it up. Don't let that stop you of course. I know you will provide the advice anyway, I can only hope that if it isn't the advice that cators to our particular situation, that it could be damaging.
Anyway, You all seem like wonderful people and I am sorry that the loved ones in your life have done something as horrible to you as I have done to my husband. I just know that different people have different ways of dealing with things.
I can not stop my husband from having more faith in all of you right now than he does in me, but I can just do my part and hopefully he will know in his heart what the right thing is to do. I am sure we will see the councellor this week or early next week, we are waiting for her call. Frankly, I can't wait to get there as hard as I know it will be, I think this is the one thing that can help us move forward and understand eachother better.
Thanks for listening!!

<small>[ November 18, 2003, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: Holding Myself Accountable ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am filled with doubt on whether this site is helping things with us. It sure feels like it is hurting. I have said it once, and I will say it again, that because I am the cheater, you can only see me as a completely selfish and dishonest person. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are plenty of other "completely selfish and dishonest" people here (I, for one) who have been offering YOU help as well.

You are still very bruised as well. It makes you hypersensitive to anything said to you. You can't help it, we know that. It may take you a while to stop "raising shields" when offered advice. Heck, it's been almost two years and I still get my butt on shoulders sometimes.

If S&H has really been listening to the advice he's been getting, it's a good thing for both of you. It has been excellent advice. However, you're right in that it comes from our individual experiences and not any kind of professional position (at least in my case anyway).

I see a lot of "my situation is special" in your post. While your right that we don't know all your particulars, MB methods are effective in WIDE RANGE of situations. The longer you hang around here, the more you will see your basic storyline repeated over and over.

As far as telling other people...this is your first opportunity to try out a new MB concept: Policy Of Joint Agreement.

If you both cannot enthusiastically agree to tell others, including parents, DON'T DO IT.

As far as other people knowing...
You'd be surprised just how easy it is for others to figure out what's going on and how hard it is for people you think you can trust to keep a secret. More people than you know will find out. You both need to be prepared to deal with this. Even two years later, I can't walk into a room at a social function without starting a whisper-storm.

I hope counseling goes well for you.

Low

HMA and S&H,

Let me address something or actually somethings. First, it is strongly advised by a world expert in these things that if the A is in progress that it should be brought out in the open, tell family friends, co-workers etc. However, since your A is over, the need to tell people is greatly reduced and as Low Orbit says subject to the Policy of Joint Agreement, POJA. Please read about it in the articles here. While you are reading that read about "radical honesty".

So let's consider the topic of telling your parents. What good will it do? How will it help your marriage? Will it help you (HMA) or you S&H?? If so how? Discuss these issues and discuss them carefully.

I will over you my personal opinions for consideration. HMA most of your arguements are not really valid, because I feel you underestimate your parents ability to cope and understand. I am very likely your parents age or close, and I KNOW how the world goes around <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . So such a disclosure would bother me, but I would not disown my children for it. Second, It might allow them a chance to help you and S&H. So I feel some of your arguements are self protection.

HOWEVER, since your sister is getting married soon, I think it should wait until after the wedding IF you two tell them at all.

FURTHER, I think your assessment that S&H needs someone to talk to is very correct. I am not sure your parents are the right people for that job. I am NOT sure your FEMALE friend is either. HMA please understand he is very vulnerable right now, and having him confiding in a female friend is NOT a good thing.

So that leaves here as a place for him to vent, talk, discuss, etc.

But, let's consider this further, S&H do you feel the need to tell her parents because you want protection from being the "bad" guy?? Do you need protection from their "assumptions" that if the marriage is rocky right now YOU are the one responsible?? If that is so, the HMA (I hope I am remembering your new name correctly) you need to sit down with him and come up with a plan to protect your H. It is your job, because it is your family.

Right now it is likely he is just not capable of being protrayed as the "bad guy", because of his pain. Further, he may fear and his post suggested it that he can keep it together during the wedding. Weddings are very hard on people who are having marriage difficulties. He should NOT have to lie to your parents if he does break down, but it is NOT a good time to be telling them either.

So S&H and HMA what is your plan? That is the question. Your parents shouldn't be told until you both reach a POJA on the topic, but protection of your H is crucial right now. So please think about this.

HMA, low orbit is right you are very defensive right now, and very self focused. That will change and hopefully many other changes will occur once counseling will start. You seem very very focus on the selfish aspect of things. You use that word alot. Do you know why you are so focused on that word?? You use it to describe your H, and use a lot more to describe how you used to be. But, have you read the posts to you, or the articles here about the Giver/Taker aspects of peoples personalities? I hope you do.

No one here expects you to turn into a total giver, it won't work. What should be sought is a balance of Giver/Taker coupled with a care and consideration of your spouse. You might want to read the 4 rules of marriage as well. They are simple and intuitive but very subtle. The rules of time, care, protection, etc are where you need to be with your H right now.

So please quit defending yourself so much. What we would like to hear is what you are struggling with. What you feel. If you are trying to get certain things across to your H, do you want suggestions? If your H is having problems how do you preceive them, and do you want advice addressing them?

We expect to hear the same from S&H. This is a discussion forum. But it is based on some basic primis' of marriage recovery that are very successful. That is why you will constantly hear to read this, or read that. As you do, our comments, suggestions, and views will make more sense to you.

You two are so new to this and there is much pain and self-protection going on. It is normal. It is expected. So calm down and use this site for what it was intended, getting advice, voicing frustration, venting, and learning from other's experiences. If you do that you will find that you will gain new insights into what you are dealing with and how to address it. I also think you will find that your counseling sessions will be more fruitful. Why? YOu have something to compare to favorably or negatively, and thus you will be more sensitized to what your counselors are telling you. THAT IS A GOOD THING.

Must go, but the two of you please think about this and use POJA with regard to telling her parents right now. I personally would vote against it right now, but not for all of the reasons that HMA has provided.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by Full of Shame and Regret:

At fifteen I met my childhood sweetheart although he was very physically, emotionally and mentally abusive, I still married him at 20. Although, trapped in a marriage which I was scared to leave, I took the chance with a man that I could see was perfect for me, and although the wrong choice in having an affair with him, I did but then later left my husband to start a new life with him. The difference in the affair with him was, I was unhappy in my relationship with my ex and had fallen deeply inlove with him. (My current Husband)

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Forgive my denseness... I am asking if my interpretation is correct.....

Your current H (the BS writing here on MB) was your previous affair partner during your first marriage?

Is my understanding correct?

Thanks.

Love,

Pep

Pep,

It was a previous H, not the current H.

JL

HMA

I know you feel that if you didn't have intimacy problems then maybe you weren't impacted like other abuse victims were.

But there is a thread here on MB that has a wide range of abused persons on it. You will find that somethings in common with many of them.

But one thing is common to ALL abuse victims and that is they suffer tremendously from low self esteem.

This link outlines many of the things an abuse will go thru. Some you might not even recognize in yourself but others might.

http://www.psc.uc.edu/sh/SH_Sexual_Abuse.htm

I note how agressively you are beating yourself up strong signs of more than guilt and remorse....signs of low self esteem.

I know you feel like total strangers are telling you and your husband what to do. But guess what those of us posting here have no hidden agenda. We have nothing to gain by taking one side or the other. We don't see either one of your pain and tears. In short we are as detatched as one can be making comments here very objective at times...and at others not.

But you are reading the voices of experience. So take what you can from this forum.

I differ on whether to tell her parents. The lone reason I had her tell her parents was because I was told I was mistreating her by her sister. They saw my anger and shortness when around them. I wanted me off the hook from being the heavy. This was imporatant to me because her sister had already been thru a nasty divorce a few years back and the ex and her parents battled in court and afterwards for quite awhile.

I think you could put off telling them. And perhaps even not telling them but that is both of your's call. If he feels the need then go with it just work on the timing. You might find that after sometime he no longer feels the need to tell them.

JL, I'm still not sure. The way she structured her sentence, I couldn't tell which "he" she was talking about.

I think you're probably correct, but I'm still not sure. I thought it would be important and germain to the trust issue her current husband struggles with .... if the two of them had been affair partners before their marriage to each other.

I think the "swinging" aspect is a HUGE issue.

Especially for any woman with a sexual abuse history. She comes to the marriage with a history of non-intimate, non-loving sexual experiences. THEN, her husband encourages her to continue having non-intimate, non-loving sexual experiences in the "swinging" sceen ....

What is she likely to feel about her body? That it is intended as a man's sexual plaything .... and she is more than able to have soul-less non-intimate sex with men she doesn't even care about.

Sexual depersonalization before and during her marriage.

Throw in a hurtful abuser as a first marriage choice, and you get a woman who was primed to act out sexually.

I consider the sexual swinging participation very reckless, and possibly even callous ....on her husband's part. This swinging turned him on, meanwhile for his wife, painful re-living her childhood realities of men using her body for their pleasure.

Husband ..... YOU need to own some of this.

Pep