[QUOTE]

Originally posted by Holding Myself Accountable:

I am filled with doubt on whether this site is helping things with us. It sure feels like it is hurting.

You came to MB already hurting. Don't forget that. The hurts you carry are huge, and we (MB'ers) are not much more than irritating sand in your shoes compared to the ways you have been hurt before you arrived at MB.

I have said it once, and I will say it again, that because I am the cheater, you can only see me as a completely selfish and dishonest person.

I see you as a very hurt and confused person. Also .... a vvvvvery... VERY *angry* person.

Maybe Leave off the "maybe", it will work to your healing benifit if you just start your sentence without the "maybe" I have done selfish and dishonest things but I certainly know that I am working toward this changing that all. Because he sypathizes with you all right now he looks as if EVERYTHING you all suggest and every advice you have to offer should be written in stone. Atleast I see it that way !
Yes....it is true that at day one when telling the parents first came up, I was feeling a lot of selfishness about facing my parent and not wanting them to lose pride in me.

I think you are really smart. So smart in fact, that you are finding it difficult to deceive yourself easily. You realize that you want your parent's to look upon you and feel pride in their daughter .... however, you deny revealing your real self to them. If you really want to achieve authentic self-esteem .... it has to come from you, not from anyone else, including your parents or your husband!!!

You must earn your self respect and your self esteem by being a person YOU admire.

And, right now, you are NOT that person you admire, and it makes you embarrased, and finally, angry.

In the past while looking at the situation more carefully I realized the guilt is what I need to pay the consiquences of what I have done. I have told him that I will do anything he feels I need to do to help him and volunteered to pick up the phone and call and tell them tonight. I only asked him to see what this may do to them right now. They are in the midst of wedding plans with my sister and the arrival of her baby in March. In the past my parents have carried a lot of worry about the path of mine and my sisters security. In the past few years knowing I was with a wonderful man and had two beautiful children has reasured them that I am taken care of. My sister is 30 years old now and just moved out with her fiance 6 months ago after never leaving home before. They didn't have a life until six months ago. They have had their marital problems themselves mostly to do with difference of opinion due to the path of me and my sister. They are just finally seeing that they can actually move on to their retirement happily knowing their daughters are taken care of. I have just laid out the facts to him that yes....I will tell them.... if he believes it would help him. I have just asked him to consider what it will do to THEM....not me !!! Of course no one person wants to face shame at their parents, but I am willing to do that if that is the RIGHT thing here.

I'm not so sure it is the right thing .... unless it is done with the right motive at heart. I think this is the point you are making, and I agree with you.


But as long as we are working toward getting to an even better place in our relationship I can only see that we may regret this looking back on it later by saying that we hurt them for no reason.

I agree, there should be a reasonable rationalle to do this.

However, I am still willing to do that. I would like to hear myself what a councelor has to say about this, as an unbias person who can say whether this can help or hurt our situation, but I do believe all of you that are hurt out there, may have the belief that because you had to face it with your family, why shouldn't we. I am sure those of you who have gone on to renew your relationship and are moving on after several years have wondered was it worth it hurting my family. If he is to end this right now, it is inevitable that the truth would come out anyway whether it hurt them or not. He chose not to end it and I am very thankful to be given the chance. Up until a day or so ago, he felt as if it was also the right thing to not tell the parents, but after hearing several posts here and taking your words as gosple, that no matter what I have showed him that my attempts are to change, he wants to punish me further.

I wonder if it's punishment in his mind. Are you certain?

I can understand that I guess. I will do what ever it takes. Telling our friends, telling our neighbor and people I even see more often then my parents doesn't bother me. They mean a lot to me too but telling them, I know they won't feel responsible to fix this, my parents will, that is just the way they are. These people are my flesh and blood. This will only leave them in concern for the stability of their Grandchildren first and foremost. It would horrify them to think that they would be raised in a broken family.

Your parents sound like good people. You're lucky that way.


Of course the truth is there are STRONG stability issues here of course, but we both want to believe we will get past this and will one day be STABLE again. Whether it takes 2 years or 10 years, but if we do make it through this one thing won't change through them knowing, that they will live the rest of their lives worrying about their daughter and their grandchildrens happiness and security. Because of the steps I am making to better my future I, know that they will only see positive changes in me and not even know why.
I think it is also important to realize that when he sat down to write his last post he was in one of his harded moments. His angriest and most confused state. He goes in an out of it. I know that is completely normal. But he goes through times where he believes I am sincere and then the next minute doubting that he can believe a word I say.

Normal BS crazy-mind beset with alternating grief and rage. It will pass. Patience is your friend.

He does believe that by telling him how it worries me about how it would affect my family, he thinks that I am just laying on guilt trips because I have my own reason for them not knowing. Assuming that I am still having selfish thoughts and then lying about it. I think you all telling him how selfish I am even now, and that I can't be trusted is unfair.

You can't be trusted until you have established trustworthy behavior with your husband. YOU are far more powerful than we MB'ers ... when it comes to building a solid layer of new trust with your H.It has nothing to do with us or what we say. This area of distrust belongs to you. Own it. Once you own it, you can improve upon it. If you make the lack of trust issue "ours" at MB .... then you negate YOUR power to impliment powerful changes for good. Don't strip YOUR power in the relationship by laying your issues at our doorstep.

Ownership of your problems = power to change.


You don't know how this has pointed me on such a different path of thinking. I have accepted that I have to face the shame to sufficiently relize what I have done. Believe me I feel alot of shame, and our best friend for one definately thinks much less of me now. But it was necissary. He doesn't see that she is also and avenue for him to talk to. She cares alot about him also. She has been nothing but a GOOD FRIEND to both of us. I took it on myself to tell here knowing that her support could help both of us whether it sacrificed my pride or not.

Your pride can be restored when you have control over your own life and it's problems. Until then, I think a *humble heart* is your most useful tool. Humble heart is far more likely to make ammends than a shameful heart. Think about this.


I understand what he is facing with my parents I see that this would help him, but really it will hurt 3 other people who i also thought were very dear to his heart. Does that not seem selfish also. The one thing I have learned is those who are the victims get into a selfish pattern of their own. I stongly believe that the selfish acts of others inflicted on me over the years has turned me down a path to commit selfish acts of my own and lashing out at the world....I am hurting...who the hell cares who else is?. That has been me for far too long and I am changing that. Although that is not a concious thought I have done enough reading of my own over the years in self help books etc. to know that this is the pattern that the victim very often falls in also.
I am not calling him selfish...please understand that what I am saying is that I don't want him to fall in the trap. Those who have been abused become the abusers.(If the pain is not handled in appropriate ways) ie. councelling, reading, self realizations etc.

Yes.... you were sexually abused .... and without appropriate healing .... look where your sexuality has led. Your sexuality is a gift. A special gift. Don't give your sexuality to men you do not love with all your heart and soul. That diminishes your gift.


From what he has written in anger this evening, I can only imagine the responses that will come back.
He has assumed that asking him to think about this thouroughly before unleashing this monster into their hands, only means that I am thinking of myself, and I know that some of the answers will be indicating that you all still think I am being selfish and should be punished. Some of the advice I am expecting: "Yes her parents should know to face her guilt and their loss of respect for her."
"My parent knew right away and we had to deal with it."
My question to you all is this, now that you know you are in recovery, do you really feel it helped, or could possibly just add another hurdle to get over. Is hurting the innocent people really necessary.

Well, I am not sure his intention is to hurt them or to hurt you

Pep

I actually think that sadandhurt may want the parents to know to get some additional support to save his marriage. That is why I wanted to tell my inlaws. I thought, and still do, that if they had known the truth from the start, they would have had much more of a steadying influence on my X than I could hope to have at that point. After all, I KNEW he still loved them, and would maybe listen to them. As it turned out, they found out over a year later, when he was going to introduce her to them, but as they said at the time, they knew what was going on, and were disappointed he would not talk about it with them. And by the way, they still love their son, just not what he has done.

I agree with Pepper's stance on having a humble heart. Also, instead of talking the talk, you need to walk the walk, over and over and over again until he really, REALLY understands that you will not ever put the marriage at risk again.
Hearing how you have repented may not be what he wants right now. Just BE there for him, quietly and without trying to justify ANYTHING right now.

Yes, you had a terrible past and that has affected some of your decision making. But I need to ask you.....has talk, talk and more talk got you out of situations that were difficult before? Maybe temporarily, but it is action that will help snh right now.

That is where I am misunderstood People. I am trying to Walk the Walk. I am making every step I can to fix my problems and become a better person. I have indeed been patient in understanding what he is going through and I will wait what ever time it takes to have him come back to me.
I have confidence that he wantsour marriage healed as much as I do, or he would have walked out on me when he found out. I am grateful to him for giving me another chance. He didn't have to and I wouldn't have expected him to. I am an awful person for doing this and believe me I know it. I wish I could take it all away, but I can't.
I want to clearly say that it isn't that I don't think any of you are trying to help. In fact the words of Stunned Dad and Just Learning has indeed helped me understand more what my H is going through. But I just don't want my efforts to be undermined and that is all I feel that sometimes is happening on this site. Believe me, I am giving this everything I have got. I love him more than life itself. He is the only RIGHT DECISION that I made in my life. And being in my addiction for attention is causing me to self destruct and destruct others that I love. I can't live like that. And I most importantly have to be honest with my self, as I have lived in denile for two many years, believeing that I was Ok with my past and look what it has done. So, again, thank you all for your help and I thank you for being there for my hubby. You all seem like great people and I will now take things you say with a grain of salt as I know that you are speaking from your own personal experience.
I know I get defensive. I have had to live my life that way, being constantly attacted by others. It was my survival. I am working on being more HUMBLE, and of course less defensive, but again, I know I have problems and that is one of them. I will be getting help. I will keep you posted.
I want to share something with you:
Last night I brought something up that he said to me years ago.
When we were first together, he said how being with me he felt he won the lottery.
He told me last night that he feels he lost the ticket.
I then told him that I hope in time he will feel that way again. I hope to make him feel like he has won a bigger lottery than he did ever before. It will take time but I strive to be a better person.
I think this is a good analogy.

[QUOTE]

Originally posted by Holding Myself Accountable:

The one thing I have learned is those who are the victims get into a selfish pattern of their own.

Yes, victims usually respond with their "Taker" for self-protection. Gee, I actually hope you learn more than this, eventually. You realize, of course, you have a flair for the dramatic statement. That is your pridefulness masking your insecurities. (My humble opinion, feel free to disregard)


I stongly believe that the selfish acts of others inflicted on me over the years has turned me down a path to commit selfish acts of my own and lashing out at the world....I am hurting...who the hell cares who else is?.

Yep, we've got one of this type of hurting child of our own. Our 17-year-old fighting his demons. Hurting us. I "get it".

I am sure the day you found out, many of you in haste stormed out and told everyone to gain strength from their sympathy. If you could have brought yourself to a place to think of others at the time would you still have unleashed the monster.

I really hope you are reading this. Your monster got bigger and bigger because you kept him hidden. Do your parents know about your childhood sexual abuse? If they do know, how did they find out and what was their response?

***DO YOU TRUST YOUR PARENTS TO LOVE YOU ...EVEN AFTER THEY LEARN OF SOME OF THE SICK THINGS YOU DID?***

He felt as if we were going to work this out, the negative vibes from other knowing could only bring us down. So he chose not to.

Actually, I think the "negative vibes" he fears from your parents ... is them knowing that you and he were living "the lifestyle" .... and realizing that lifestyle contributed to your emotional mess (trying to disconnect the sex act from love).


We love eachother a lot and have faith that we will indeed get through this, and if we do, I just do not see how this will help things. But like I said, if the advice of a councelor says that it is necessary for my healing aswell as his and our healing that they know. If necissary I will still do this!!!

I soooo agree. Counseling, and a lot of it. Soon. Long term. Together and separately.


It just disturbs me that even though this is way too soon for him to TRUST anything that I say, that he takes what you all have to say way more important than what I have to say.

Because we are "safe" for him right now. We have little or no power to hurt him.

You have the power to hurt him, and you've shown a willingness to wield that power.

The real loss for your husband, is that he has lost his ability to trust HIS own judgement. And who's judgement should he rely on? Yours? Not hardly. You also showed poor judgement.

It's a fact. Hurt someone and they do not trust you .... unless they are very very weak people.


My new leaf on life is to not ever hurt others intentionally EVER again.

I would like to add to this thought. You will hurt others. That's a part of life. I was wondering if you could begin to engineer a blueprint for your emerging values. Your new leaf on life based on **principles** for being a woman you can admire and a woman who can feel safe to reveal ALL her behaviors to the people who love her. Make yourself a safe person for yourself. A person who's life is principle-driven, not people pleasing. A woman who can open the cover of the book of her soul to her husband, her children, her parents, her friends, and to her God.


I will also do anything to help things for him.

Including group sex to please him? See .... this is an example of your loss of boundaries, a common problem area for abuse victims.

i know he loves me.

You are blessed. That's a fact! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

He may not be mauling me and hanging on my at my sisters wedding, but really, he is not expected to. Also, with my sisters wedding and baby on the way, i can't help but think that she will hate me for raining on her parade by unleasing this. No matter which way you may look at it just seems like hurting innocent people to me.

That's the b*tch of affairs. The ripple effect. Like throwing a pebble into the center of still pond, the ripples go out from the point of impact, causing disturbance. You tossed that pebble, now you cannot stop the ripples. It's like trying to defy the laws of physics.


He thinks that telling them may give him someone to talk to. Well....it is understandable that he feels he needs someone to talk to.

Or perhaps, he's chosing NOT TO LIVE A LIE for the rest of his marriage to you???? Think about living a lie, and how much energy that consumes.

I hope that councellor can fill that need for him, because it is them that is really going to help him through this when they know EVERY BIT of the situation. NOT JUST PARTS...as you all do.
Again, I just worry that what you all are saying is being taken as not only words of support by him, but words of complete accuracy.

We''re not that powerful.

I just can't see how any advice from here can be without a shadow of a doubt be the right thing because you just don't know our particular set of circumstance.

Circumstances are soooo much alike, you'd be amazed.

Me doing this had absolutely nothing to do with my feelings for him.

I think it has oodles to do with how you feel about yourself. Your need for attention is like a performer's need for an audience. You are a "performer" during sex with strangers, aren't you? I understand this very well. Very well.


I love him more than words can ever say, and consider myself so fortunate that he didn't walk out on us.

You love each other.

I know he believes that I love him, maybe he thinks it is not to the degree that he thought before this, but a councelor will help him see that he was not the reason for my lack of judgement. I made the biggest mistake of my life and I am facing that, and I know I need to deal with a lot of things. I can't believe I risked it all for my selfish need and addiction to attention, but you can all be rest assured that I have never been so Hell bent on fixing anything right now.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Hell bent.

All I want is for him to eventually have even more trust in me than ever before and see that I am becoming a better person.

You don't trust yourself yet.... work on that first, and let go of the idea that he "should" trust you. Let it go. YOU need to trust yourself. Then, you will have something real.


Anyway, I have had mixed feeling about this board since the beginning, on one hand I think the support you have given him has been wonderful, helping him to not feel along. But I do believe in a sense that you all on here are the only ones that he seems to listen to right now and I think he would believe any advice you had to give no matter what there was to back it up. Don't let that stop you of course. I know you will provide the advice anyway, I can only hope that if it isn't the advice that cators to our particular situation, that it could be damaging.

NOTHING we say could possibly be as damaging as the acts you both have commited within your marriage.


Anyway, You all seem like wonderful people and I am sorry that the loved ones in your life have done something as horrible to you as I have done to my husband.

I am a wonderful person. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> And so are you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You're sort-a screwed up right now, but underneath, I'm sure there is beauty and wisdom. Look for it.

I just know that different people have different ways of dealing with things.

And, right now, your ways of dealing are suspect. I think you've picked up some poor coping mechanisms .... and you are not quite ready to let those habits go, for fear of being emotionally naked without them.

You've been physically naked .... have you been emotionally naked?

The very best to both of you.

Love,

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Wow, Pep!

Pep and others who follow our post,

Thank you, for the way you break down my posts. I believe you are helping me make sense of some things. You do sound like a very intelligent person and have a wonderful logical side to things. I definately feel more understood by you, then anyone so far.

No offence to the others, they have also given me a lot to think about.

I appreciate the time you are all taking with your posts. You seem like you do really want to help. And as I mentioned before to Stunned Dad in Just Learning, Thank you also to you. You are indeed wonderful people. I know you have nothing to gain from offering us advice, you are just trying to help. I know I have got my back up a bit with some things. I just know I am trying so hard and although I don't deserve rewards or praise, I naturally just want my efforts to be recognized. My rewards will come in time by having him learn to trust me all over again. I will show him he can trust me again!!!.
Pep...."Hell Bent" was a poor choice of words in my last post. LOL
And.....of course we have both done a lot of discussing and thinking about the swinging aspect of things (and why we were even there). Let's put it to you this way, we have both admitted that it represented our own selfish needs. We have talk alot about the sanctity of marriage and how no one should never give up themselves sexually (no matter what the reason or the concent)to anyone but your spouse. Believe me when I say, this will never ever be an option to us again.
I know that I need a lot of work and some may be in the way I express what I am feeling. I sometimes don't even know what I am feeling, One minute numb, one minute sad, one minute angry etc. I know I have a lot to learn, and I am determined to learn it.
Pray for us guys, it may be a long journey ahead,THAT I KNOW, but I really hope that our destination will be a long, loving, and trusting marriage and to know that We are both happy with the people we have become.
Hugs to you all!!

<small>[ November 19, 2003, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: Holding Myself Accountable ]</small>

[QUOTE]

Originally posted by Holding Myself Accountable:

I know I have got my back up a bit with some things. I just know I am trying so hard and although I don't deserve rewards or praise, I naturally just want my efforts to be recognized. My rewards will come in time by having him learn to trust me all over again. I will show him he can trust me again!!!.

Remember, YOU need to develop trust in YOURSELF (and your H needs to develop trust in HIMSELF) .... this comes first. There is a concept called "borrowed functioning" .... which occurs in ALL marriages eventually:

Borrowed functioning means you rely on your H's positive view of you to maintain your self-worth.

At first this system works well.... but there is an inevitable breakdown. When he has a period of time where he cannot (for whatever reason) reflect a positive view of YOU back to you .... your self-esteem collapses.

If you trust yourself, you can stand up for yourself in times of trouble. If he can see that you stand up for yourself in times of trouble .... he might begin to trust you.

Pep...."Hell Bent" was a poor choice of words in my last post. LOL

Actually, I thought it was a rather profound choice of words! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


And.....of course we have both done a lot of discussing and thinking about the swinging aspect of things (and why we were even there). Let's put it to you this way, we have both admitted that it represented our own selfish needs. We have talk alot about the sanctity of marriage and how no one should never give up themselves sexually (no matter what the reason or the concent)to anyone but your spouse. Believe me when I say, this will never ever be an option to us again.

I cannot tell you how many times this idea of open marriage has screwed up otherwise decent relationships ....

I know that I need a lot of work and some may be in the way I express what I am feeling. I sometimes don't even know what I am feeling, One minute numb, one minute sad, one minute angry etc.

This feeling must remind you of some of your childhood hurts, I suspect.

I know I have a lot to learn, and I am determined to learn it.

Me too .... I'm Hell bent! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


Pray for us guys, it may be a long journey ahead,THAT I KNOW, but I really hope that our destination will be a long, loving, and trusting marriage and to know that We are both happy with the people we have become.

OK ... we'll exchange prayers. You pray for my family, and I'll pray for yours.

Deal?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

To Holding Myself Accountable: It is interesting to hear the other side of the story and your perspective. I happen to have been on the receiving end of the infidelity and it really hurts. My wife had everything and regarded me as a model husband. I trusted her, but she abused the trust and went outside of the marriage bounds irrespective of who she hurt in the process, and that includes small children and myself. I feel trapped becuause of the children and because she has no job or profession. During the time of the affair and before I knew, she started to find all sorts of faults inme that she had not expressed before. Her emotional needs were always met, but she neglected mine and, and I could actually say that she verbally abused and on a couple of occasions she physically abused me as well. But I never did consider doing what she did not because of lack of opportunities or temptations. As soon as I recognized danger, I would get away from it out of respect for myself, my beliefs, for her and for my family. All she says is that she does not know why she did it, which I do not believe. To top things of, she found someone who is much older than either of us, who is sick, very short, uneducated, and unable to provide for himself. It hurts me to think that she not only betrayed me, but that she was trading me for someone who she says is unattractive in any way.
Why did she do such a thing? She says she is sorry, but there are many things that she did to cover her sin which I cannot get into here. Her actions have destroyed a normal home, a normal family and have put in jeopardy my career since I am considering dropping everything. All that I worked for many years is crashing down on me.

OOPS - HURT AND SAD POST

forgot to log her out and me in....


Certainly hindsight is 20-20 foresight. You'll note in a previous thread that I have taken some responsibility here. Actually, I feel like a complete idiot over the whole thing.

Pep - Your post suggests that I knew that 2+2=4. I have never had any previous experience with those who have been abused, and I didn’t know that an abuse child could grow up and have issues such as this as a result. Maybe I’ve led a sheltered life – you don’t ever look for answers about things until you have the questions. My wife’s issues were always talked about in a “but I’m over it now” tone. It wasn’t like I (or her to a large degree for that matter) thought she was still having issues from them.

Did I see a correlation between my wife wanting to swing and her abuse? NO WAY. I’ve learned that from this board however. If I had, you could bet that I wouldn't have been up for it. I certainly didn't "Encourage" my wife to have sex with others. In every situation/meeting, and my wife would agree, I was the VERY SHY one. It was consensual, but I can certainly say that is was I who was vocal with about the most issues with it. Like, I could see it coming, but never thought she would never go that far (after all, I felt like she loved me too much to do this). Of course, my wife issues about it too, but didn't talk about them (or even maybe admit them to herself) until her affair was uncovered. In her own hindsight, she has had the same issues about the 'lifestyle' I had all along (but didn't voice them). I honestly cannot tell you what possessed me to do this. And you can bet that I could never even think about being involved in it again.

Please don't paint me as a sex-crazed maniac, because it was never that. I can tell you that I had sexual "issues" on almost every occasion, that I have never had with my wife. So it certainly wasn't about "good sex". Would it surprise you to know that I NEVER arranged anything? She did all of that. I came a long for the meeting. She already knew them well from Internet chat (I RARELY chatted on the pc). I definitely checked messages all the time, and check what she had sent out though.

In hindsight, there were plenty of signs for me to see. So yes, you are right, I have undeniable responsibility here, but understand that I didn’t know what I was getting into here. I’ve always considered myself an intelligent person – but I sure was blind and dumb. I've put a lot of thought into what made me do it-and I guess it was about my own self-confidence issues too. It really sucks, because if I knew about stuff like what I learned here, I’m sure I would have diagnosed what was happening here.

Sorry if I sound like I’m defending myself. I just didn’t want you to assume the worst and not explain what this was like for me when we were doing it.

<small>[ November 20, 2003, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: Holding Myself Accountable ]</small>

As you and your W have already been made painfully aware, swinging is not harmless to a marriage. The few swingers that I've talked to all seem to share the common beleif that by agreeing to have sex with another couple's spouse, they are removing the threat of infidelity. Wrong! By separating sex from love, sex becomes as ordinary as eating a ham sandwhich and so it is not surprising that one day one spouse decides that it's totally harmless to 'eat the sandwhich' with an OP but without sharing it with his/her spouse because afterall (in the swinger WS's mind) sex is nothing more than a genital massage, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . But it IS wrong and when the WS sees how hurt his/her BS is by it, then she or he realizes that it was wrong and suffers for causing such great pain and suffering to his/her loving spouse. The bright side in this sad story is that the WS's affair was solely a PA with no emotional attachment that would have caused extreme withdrawl for the WS and prolonged suffering for the BS. Her willingness to remedy the unresolved abuse issues of her past is a very hopeful sign that the marriage has more than an average chance of not only surviving but being rebuilt into a much happier and healthier one for both spouses.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by

HURT AND SAD


Certainly hindsight is 20-20 foresight. You'll note in a previous thread that I have taken some responsibility here. Actually, I feel like a complete idiot over the whole thing.

We all feel like idiots when we look back at our mistakes. That's part of the process of moving forward. I commend you on feeling this way! It's a point on the recovery highway. Don't worry, this feeling is temporary .... and feeling like an idiot does not mean you are a idiot! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


Pep - Your post suggests that I knew that 2+2=4. I have never had any previous experience with those who have been abused, and I didn&#8217;t know that an abuse child could grow up and have issues such as this as a result. Maybe I&#8217;ve led a sheltered life &#8211; you don&#8217;t ever look for answers about things until you have the questions. My wife&#8217;s issues were always talked about in a &#8220;but I&#8217;m over it now&#8221; tone. It wasn&#8217;t like I (or her to a large degree for that matter) thought she was still having issues from them.

I understand. But now you are informed. Painfully so.


Did I see a correlation between my wife wanting to swing and her abuse? NO WAY. I&#8217;ve learned that from this board however. If I had, you could bet that I wouldn't have been up for it. I certainly didn't "Encourage" my wife to have sex with others. In every situation/meeting, and my wife would agree, I was the VERY SHY one.

Actually, this doesn't surprise me, you being very shy. You fell in love with a woman who was the opposite of shy .... and you could meet some of your needs through her non-shy chatracteristics. We all pick our partners like this in one way or another. We choose our spouses for their weakness as much as for their strengths. I am no exception.

It was consensual, but I can certainly say that is was I who was vocal with about the most issues with it. Like, I could see it coming, but never thought she would never go that far (after all, I felt like she loved me too much to do this).

I am very certain about this---> She did not do this act because of a lack of love for you, but as a result of a lack of respect for herself.

Of course, my wife issues about it too, but didn't talk about them (or even maybe admit them to herself) until her affair was uncovered.

OK ..... HERE'S your chance to take a *real man's* leadership role in your marriage!!!

I have some suggestions:

Communicate differently. Openly.

Both of you share a common communication error. ---> defensiveness. When shown where you were weak and fell down in your duties as a spouse, both of you tend to become defensive. I figgure, if you do it here on MB with us .... you probably are WAAAAAY defensive with each other in real life.

I also suspect your wife is many times more defensive than are you. And therin lies YOUR opportunity to really make yourself the family leader and the strong man your wife so desperately needs you to be!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (cool , huh?)

When faced with a criticism from her .... thank her. You can do this without actually agreeing with the meat of her criticism. You can thank her for her thoughts, and advise her you intend to think about what she said as a criticism, and also tell her you intend to find some lesson or truth about yourself in what she said.

You will find, over time, this becomes easier and easier.

This is not the same as saying something like this: "Yeah, I made mistakes, but so did you.... and your mistakes caused my mistakes."


In her own hindsight, she has had the same issues about the 'lifestyle' I had all along (but didn't voice them).

Do you see YOUR error right here? You had issues and you kept silent. Probably to keep the peace. As you shed your timidness, and evolve into the strong spiritual man who takes a leadership role iin the family, you'll be able to voice your concerns in a loving but firm convicted way. That's a man who protects his family.

You do this with your children. You say "No, that's what you think you want, but I think it will harm you, and I am saying *no*, you cannot have that/do that."

I am NOT saying you treat your wife as a child ..... just the opposite, I am saying you respect your wife enough to voice your concerns and feelings honestly and with the knowledge that you are doing all things in your life lovingly and with respect.

It is very disrespectful to keep your silence when you think there is a problem.

Be a strong and effective leader. Your wife appears strong sometimes, when she is actually coping with her hurt by pushing help away. Help her anyway.


I honestly cannot tell you what possessed me to do this. And you can bet that I could never even think about being involved in it again.

I was involved in something similar in the 70's (I'm reallllly old) ..... and I can tell you, this is a fools game.

Please don't paint me as a sex-crazed maniac, because it was never that.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Sex-crazed!


I can tell you that I had sexual "issues" on almost every occasion, that I have never had with my wife. So it certainly wasn't about "good sex". Would it surprise you to know that I NEVER arranged anything?

Nope, doesn't surprise me at all. But your leadership was faulty. And I KNOW you are ready to correct that oversight.


She did all of that. I came a long for the meeting. She already knew them well from Internet chat (I RARELY chatted on the pc). I definitely checked messages all the time, and check what she had sent out though.

In hindsight, there were plenty of signs for me to see. So yes, you are right, I have undeniable responsibility here, but understand that I didn&#8217;t know what I was getting into here.

I could KISS you (in a very motherly way, of course) for that recognition of responsibility

I&#8217;ve always considered myself an intelligent person &#8211; but I sure was blind and dumb.

Yes, intelligence is no match for blind and dumb.... all MB'er could agree. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I've put a lot of thought into what made me do it-and I guess it was about my own self-confidence issues too. It really sucks, because if I knew about stuff like what I learned here, I&#8217;m sure I would have diagnosed what was happening here.

Well, grieve your loss, and move forward like the strong elegant man you are.


Sorry if I sound like I&#8217;m defending myself.

A little ... at the beginning, but you self-corrected!

I just didn&#8217;t want you to assume the worst and not explain what this was like for me when we were doing it.

You don't understand, I nearly always assume the best, and move from that original position. LOL... I guess that means, it's all downhill from here!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Love,
Pep

<small>[ November 20, 2003, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>
Did I see a correlation between my wife wanting to swing and her abuse? NO WAY. I&#8217;ve learned that from this board however. If I had, you could bet that I wouldn't have been up for it. I certainly didn't "Encourage" my wife to have sex with others. In every situation/meeting, and my wife would agree, I was the VERY SHY one.

[b]Actually, this doesn't surprise me, you being very shy. You fell in love with a woman who was the opposite of shy .... and you could meet some of your needs through her non-shy chatracteristics. We all pick our partners like this in one way or another. We choose our spouses for their weakness as much as for their strengths. I am no exception.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just wanted to say, this has also helped me.

My WW has always been a very friendly, flirtatious person, the type that others connect with quickly, and really enjoy being around. On the other hand, I am pretty shy. (Tough I wasn't so shy when we'd first met, and I was a heavy drinker (confidence in a bottle), which helped me gain confidence from positive feedback from other people, which reduced the "need" to get drunk every time I went out to "hit the clubs".

Anyway, I, too, am a shy guy who married a woman who was the very opposite of shy, and we're just now starting to realize some of the hurdles that can create. Now, we just need to find ways to turn that difference back into a positive for both of us. Instead of good for me, and restrictive for her. And I need to regain some of that self-confidence I had when she first started to fall in love with me, both for my own good, and to help "meet in the middle" on this issue.

Sorry, not to hijack the post, but this point was very helpful for me, and I just wanted to say so. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pep - thank you...your words are helping me to understand a little more about myself, as well as my wife. Everyone who comments here I read and take something from, and I can only think of that as a good thing.

--------------------------
My wife's comments:
I am filled with doubt on whether this site is helping things with us. Because he sypathizes with you all right now he looks as if EVERYTHING you all suggest and every advice you have to offer should be written in stone. Atleast I see it that way !

He has assumed that asking him to think about this thouroughly before unleashing this monster into their hands, only means that I am thinking of myself, and I know that some of the answers will be indicating that you all still think I am being selfish and should be punished. Some of the advice I am expecting: "Yes her parents should know to face her guilt and their loss of respect for her."

It just disturbs me that even though this is way too soon for him to TRUST anything that I say, that he takes what you all have to say way more important than what I have to say.
I did get my back up tonight and may have said a few things that indicated that I thought he would be acting selfish if he did this, but that is because I am very far from being selfish about this right now....

Again, I just worry that what you all are saying is being taken as not only words of support by him, but words of complete accuracy. I just can't see how any advice from here can be without a shadow of a doubt be the right thing because you just don't know our particular set of circumstance.

-------------------------------------------

Please understand that this is what she 'thinks'. It is NOT an accurate representation of me and my thoughts. The post that these words were taken from we regarding quesitons I had about telling her parents, and what other's experieces were, and how they worked/are working out. I tried to explain this to her but, she really didn't/doesn't believe me (of course not - she posted those words anyway). I told her I just wanted to gain more perspective on it, and that I had no intentions of doing this unless our councellor told us that in our situation it could be a postitive thin in many ways (such as many here have pointed out). But what she doesn't understand, is I wanted to hear from those who didn't think it was a good idea because again, I gain more perspective from it.

She believes I read posts...and say 'that's the way it is'. Not true - I simply identify to varying degrees with what others have to say. I'm looking to learn more about her, me, and us. It's true, some things commented on here, will spark questions - but I'm just really trying hard to understand all of this.

She truly cannot understand where I would be without this site. I can certainly say beyond a shadow of a doubt, I wouldn't be as far along right now if I didn't find this site. I wish she could understand that though everyone may not be exactly right, they can certainly give you a glimpse of what is there, and how parts may relate to you.

I know I have learned about myself, and my wife's behaviors that have at least have let me breathe and function... and not resign to the feelings that we could never be happy again. At least now I can feel like it wasn't all about our relationship. I still hold her responsible. She did it. But at least I know it wasn't all about me.

Again - thank you all for your input, it means a great deal to me, but please don't think that what you say here could possibly hurt my feelings toward her/us like she thinks. It just helps me understand things better.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I have read my husbands post from earlier. I have noticed one thing this site is doing for me,and that is I am learning a lot from my husbands posts. He openly and honestly discusses his feeling and where he is in the Recovery process.
I really do think that we will make it through this. There is no doubt that things will be rocky around here for a while, and certainly things are not back to normal in any stretch of the imagination, However, I do know that more every day he is putting in more effort and trying to be more positive about where we are heading.
I know it is going to be "Two steps forward and one step back!" for a while, but I will be here for and with him to get through the tough spots. I WON'T EVER GIVE UP ON MY MARRIAGE. You can be guaranteed of that. I am positive about where I am heading in my life. I have ideas and asperations that never existed before. (MY HEAD WAS IN A CLOUD) but, I know that I am so driven to be a better person, one that not only others can trust and adore, but one that I can trust and adore.
We now have our appointment to see the MC next Wednesday. It has taken longer than I had hoped to get the appointment LONG STORY. I put a call in the very next day when he didn't walk out the door on me. When I knew that he didn't want to throw in the towel, it was a priority right away, but from telepone tag and trying to find a councelor that would take us in the evening it just dragged on. In so many ways I look forward to getting started. I know this will really help us. Of course I have fears about it also, and I know it won't be easy, there will be anger, sadness, confusion and many other emotions present, but I also know that this is part of our healing and strengthening process. When the councelor deams appropriate I will also be starting my individual counceling and this is a bit scary but I am motivated to heal my wounds. I know that this will be very helpful. I hope to discover myself face some of my own fears.
The books are on their way, (Surviving the affair and Love Busters) I feel it is obvious which one I will read first and which one he will read first.
I dug up a book in the meantime that was given to me by a councelor when I was 13. COURAGE TO HEAL. Because it is directed to WOMEN survivors of Sexual Abuse, I didn't give it much of a chance at that time because it may have been a little too advanced for me. It is a wonderful book. I can't believe it has been in a box this whole time and I have not tried to benifit from it's healing. Like I said before, all of these years I have been in denile and I lied to myself more than anyone else. I wanted to believe that I was through it. But, I have had many deep thoughts recently that convince me that I am not over a lot of things. Some I will never competely get over, but I will be able to cope with them better.
Well, guys the bottom line is I should have fixed my demons long ago and maybe we wouldn't be in this mess, but this I know, iI want nothing more than to love myself so that others will also love me.
I am reading your posts every day, whether I respond or not and I can't stress enough how I encourage you all to continue to respond. As long as we read them with objectivity, whether we are feel misunderstood in some areas or not, we are both getting lots of help from this.
Thanks for Listening. LOL
HUGS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Know what guys....

I don't think you should tell "parents" about this .... until you BOTH have agreed to do so.

And, you're just not ready. You are both too raw and emotional.

Wait until you get some time and perspective on your marriage woes to decide if you will or will not share this really personal information. I don't have an opinion either way if you will decide to tell .... decide as a couple. Use your therapist as a guide.

You two are so much better off now then you were before the affair!

I can hear you saying "What the heck?" ....

But think about it ....( think a-boot it for all Canadians reading <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) ....

You are now communicating at a gut-honest level.

You are now learning things about your individual selves you never looked at before.

You now value your marriage more than ever.

You appreciate the jewel that marriage can be.

You will be dropping defenses and opening up.

..... If you do this thing right (recovery) you will be evolved people with a much stronger and healthier marriage.

Here's one of my favorite books:

Passionate Marriage .... by Schnarch

It's a book about the sexuality of marriage and how , if developed with integrity by both man and woman, the sex explodes because it becomes PERSONAL......... DEEPLY SO.

The opposite of what has been your experiement/experience outside the bounds of your marriage.

When you "do" strangers .... you "do" strangers with your body ONLY, and you turn off your sexiest organ .... your human soul.

Love,

Pep

<small>[ November 21, 2003, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Bumping to see how you two are doing.

Love and light,

Jacky

Hi All!
I know it has been a week or so since you have heard from either of us. As I mentioned in my last post, that we are having our first session with the MC tonight. I am filled with so much anticipation as I know it will be painful for the both of us. I have learned alot about myself through all of this. That is that I have put so many of my own hurts and angers in the closet all of these years and believed if I didn't have to face them, they would just go away. I know different now. The closet is just getting more and more full and things are starting to dump out. Now I have to sort through it all and decide what to do with it. Of course the hardest part right now is watching the pain that my husband is going through and that I am the cause of his pain. I see him struggling to understand that if I love him and respect him then how could I do something like this. The fact is I have always loved him and may have not shown him respect but certainly not intentionally. My addiction to attention lead me down a path of bad decision centered around my selfishness and what the attention was doing for me. I feel like I have been born again through all of this and that I am rediscovering myself all over again. I know that that I have feelings of hurt, confusion, anger, sadness, and rejection that I chose to believe all of these years if I just didn't think about it, it would just go away. Well, look where that has put me. I think by dealing with all of this I can make positive steps toward bettering myself as a person. Although I am scared about counceling I realize it is very necessary. I know now that I won't ever heal if I avoid it all.
My sister got married on Saturday. I am very happy for her but it was a very difficult day for the both of us. I know it was especially hard on my husband. I could see him struggling to get through the day. Of course my approach had to be somewhat different and put on a phony happy face and help with things I could all to make it the best possible day for her when on the inside I realize that I was doing what I had always done. No matter how much hurt was inside, I wasn't going to let others see my pain and I certainly was not going to rain on her parade. It was funny how relieving it was to be driving away from the wedding knowing that we could now be ourselves again and be open with eachother.
The last week has been an extreme rollercoaster and I know we haven't seen that last of that. Some days are so low that me and my hubby don't feel like we understand eachother and are so distant. Other days we reach out to eachother and use the love that we have to comfort us. But, although it is evident that neither of us want to give up, we have faced the fact that this will be a long difficult road.
Since D day, I have not missed a Sunday at Church and I think my faith has been one more step to keeping me on the straight and narrow and focusing on the things in my life that require change. I am finding returning to faith to be very enlightening.
I mentioned before that I have had this book that has been in a box for years. The Courage to Heal. I am finding this book to be so scary true. There are so many paralles to do with my feelings and the way I have coped to be textbook to what that say those who have been abused will do. They often touch on how the very fact that I have picked up the book, I have made a concious decision to heal and not avoid it any longer. Every chapter that I read, I understand myself and my feelings and behaviors more than I ever have. Since the Sexual abuse is only one of those demons. When I have worked through the entire book and received councelling for that, then it will be time to move on to the physical and emotional abuse I endured in my first marriage. I will turn to self help books as well as counceling to heal from that also. And then last but not least, the death of our daughter. I know that there is a lot there that I haven't yet dealt with. So, step by step, my plan is to uncover the truth about myself and become a stronger and more functional person so that the suffering both within myself and in my marriage can stop. I will do what it takes!
I know the love that my husband and I have will get us through. I can only hope that through councelling and reading Surviving the Affair, he can heal from this and give me his heart and his trust again some day. He may never completely trust me again and I understand that, but I can only hope that he will see I am going to be a changed person when we are through all of this.

Bumping......For Feedback from all of you!!!

First, I'd like to extend my best wishes to both of you. I see so many positives in what both of you have been saying here.

I do have a bit of a question you though HMA. You said...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Holding Myself Accountable:
<strong> Of course the hardest part right now is watching the pain that my husband is going through and that I am the cause of his pain. I see him struggling to understand that if I love him and respect him then how could I do something like this. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, my WW has said much the same thing to me many times since D-Day, especially in the past week or so since I discovered yet more truths (maybe someday we'll get to a point where I feel confident that I've been given the entire truth).

Anyway, in my case, as a result of those feelings, my WW has decided to leave. Mostly to allow us time apart to work on our individual selves without the pain and distraction of the mess that our M is in, but partly just to avoid having to deal with watching the pain that I am going through.

I really don't know what I'm asking. Maybe if it makes sense that she'd leave in order to save our M. I really don't know. She's finishing packing stuff today and going to go through the process of loading it up and moving it out. So maybe I'm just at the critical point of "freaked-out-ness", and looking for someone out there to be able to convince me that everything will be ok.

Ah well, sorry to interupt your topic here. Maybe it's because you're both here sharing your thoughts that I gain a greater measure of understanding here.

Best of luck to both of you on this new journey. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Uncomfortable Numb

Well, sorry to hear that it had to come to a separation for you two. Am I correct in assuming that the separation was her idea?

Our situations differs somewhat in the way that no matter how much pain I see my H going through, I would never suggest a separation. Seeing his pain is necissary for me to face what I have done to him. Although in the heat of things he has suggested a separation, I believe that is the last thing that he would consider if we are both serious in repairing the relationship.

Throughout this crisis, I have hit a point of rediscovery of myself. That the problems with myself go much deeper than the affair itself. I have realized that the demons of my past are once again coming back to haunt me because I have not dealt with them. ie. Sexual Assault, abusive ex husband and the loss of our daughter. My coping in the past has been to put it all in a closet and shut the door so I didn't have to deal with the pain and hoping if I didn't think about it, it would all go away. I now understand that if I don't deal with my fears and self-confidence issues, I will only continue on a distructive path of myself and of others that I love. I find if very difficult living with my self right now, and at only 28 years old I have much of my life to live and don't want to live it this way, so I have chosen to turn to councelling (both self and MC), self help books, and returning to my faith in God. On top of all of that, I made a personal vow to myself that I will no longer lie about anything to my husband (or myself) any longer thus I have come completely clean to give my marriage and our lives together a fair shot.

I love my husband dearly and I believe it was my addiction to attention that lead me astray not anything that he has done. He is a wonderful husband, lifepartner, father and friend.
Through reading threads and posts on this board I can only believe there are two causes for a WS to commit such and act.

1. Current relationship issues that are causing one or both of the parties to feel unhappy in the marriage and seeking out something else.

2. Or there are other issues that are haunting her and she hasn't dealt with causing a lack of self confidence and self respect.

I hope she reads this:
If she is truly happy with you and the relationship, a separation is only running away from further pain. Does she possibly have passed issues in her life that she is possibly hiding in the closet and chosen not to deal with because they are to painful to face?
If that is the case, she should be honest with herself first and honest with you about them. Then of course the next step is to seek help for them. Yes, this is very painful, I am going through some heavy emotions right now dealing with not only what I have done, but the uncovering of my demons that I now have to face to improve myself as a person.
Has she honestly broken off the relationship with the OM? If she hasn't, I can only think that this separation could cause further hurt to your relationship with him in the picture.
If she truly wants to work on the relationship, she must face seeing the pain you are in, be there for you and work on herself to be the person both you and others can love and trust again.
I have learned that running away from a problem can only make it worse.
It won't be an easy road, and I can assure you our lives around here are and emotional rollercoaster, but I won't give up no matter how tough it gets. I want to earn my trust back from my H. He deserves to have a life partner that he can trust through his life.

If you are reading this WW, I encourage you to come COMPLETELY CLEAN and face your the demons of the present and the past. This will be the only way you will move forward with your life aswell as the marriage.

And.... UN I encourage you to keep your cool as she SPILLS THE BEANS. You may hear things that you don't want to hear, but recognize if she does this it is in her best effort to move forward and no longer hide anything from you.

It sounds like you really love your wife UN.
Don't run away WW. If you love him, show him and be completely honest and as hard as it is to see the pain you have caused him, running away from it won't help.

Remember WW, I am in your position, I have committed some very selfish acts that have hurt the ones I love. You have a choice to make, either you love him and you will give this 150% or you want something different and that choice should be made so that UN can get on with his life.

I am no psychologist, but these are my observations and I am thinking of things much differently now that my head is out of the clouds. I have learned to appreciate what I have and what I need to to to keep it. Through this process I also hope to love myself again.

If the proper steps are taken, they say that the marriage can be even better than it was before because now an eliment of complete trust and honoring eachothers needs is now added to the picture.

Love eachother, and be unselfish and you will see this through.

I will pray for you guys to see this marriage through.