Originally posted by Uncomfortably Numb:
As of today, I truly believe that she feels like she can't escape soon enough. And in many ways, I can't say that I blame her.

That's OK. Her feelings are hers. What exactly is she escaping? THIS --->Her intense feelings about YOU and your marriage and the consequences of choices!

She may escape physically, and might experience some temporary emotional relief, but she will still have to process her way back into the relationship, or out of the relstionship.

Escaping is temporary.

TRY NOT to allow HER emotional ups and downs to cause a direct identical effect on you.

YOU are a separate human being. Your feelings are yours, hers are hers.

Experience this event fully awake and alert to the lessons in each moment. If you allow yourself to be pulled by her tides .... your powers to affect your growth are diminished.

Since you have been borrowing emotional content from her throughout your M .... this will feel strange for you.

Breathe your way out of panic-striken moments.

Trust that YOU come with all the equipment necessary to function as a fully-realized human being.

SHE can run off in a panic, allow yourself to choose a calm response!!!!

If she sees you becoming a man who is self-relient, who is strong and steady, and a man who trusts himself... she will see an attractive man indeed.

Pep



<small>[ November 25, 2003, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> Since you have been borrowing emotional content from her throughout your M .... this will feel strange for you. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh have I ever! I'm coming to realize how much, maybe TOO much, I've invested in this family, this relationship. I feel like I have invested every fiber of my being, and that's an awful lot of pressure for anyone to have to be everything to another person, let alone their "equal partner". So I have been borrowing everything I can possibly get from her. No wonder she feels like she has nothing left to give.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> If she sees you becoming a man who is self-relient, who is strong and steady, and a man who trusts himself... she will see an attractive man indeed. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, before ever reading SAA or HNHN, she told me that what she felt was missing the most was a good father for the kids, someone who is strong emotionally (keeping her balanced, or in check), and someone who has self-confidence. So what you just said is an exact interpretation of what she told me she was missing when I first found out about any of this over a month ago.

Thanks again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

UN,

Am I correct that you've read Surviving An Affair? If not, it's the very best read after HNHN.

Another great Harley book is Give & Take.I think you will find it very insightful because it covers in detail Policy of Joint Agreement.

One thing I'm trying to say is that if your wife moves out you'll have more spare time possibly, so take the time to get educated & become an expert of affairs & how to survive them.

You sound as though you're doing very well with all that has happened. In my opinion, I believe your wife is still in contact with the OM or she is going through withdrawals. Regardless you are still responsible for your behavior to not LB.

I counseled with Steve Harley for many months, and one of the most important things he told me as a BS is "Safety 1st"; meaning that you must protect your spouse from LBs. If you don't nothing else CAN work.

By becoming as knowledgeable about affairs as I possibly could, it was my way of coping with my situation. That and posting & reading here. These wonderful people helped me tremendously because my FWH and I chose not to tell others in our life about the affair.

Also the Harley family recommends the book by Shirley Glass called "Not Just Friends". There are sections on internet affairs.

Blessings to you as you proceed on this journey. Especially I am impressed with your compassion for your 2 daughters. They are fortunate to have you in their life. I'm glad you are their "real father". You are a quality male role model & will continue to represent stability to them. CSue

<small>[ November 25, 2003, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: CSue ]</small>

Now I know what rock-bottom feels like. We told the kids last night. How miserable. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> There were a couple of upsides though, I believe.

1) After we told them and talked for a bit, my wife took the youngest to the bathroom to get her cleaned up some. As soon as she did, the oldest got off the couch, came down to the floor where I had been sitting in front of everyone, gave me the biggest hug ever, and said..."I hope everything works out. I love you so much." After which I started bawling. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

2) During the conversation, my wife did say "I decided it was necessary...". Also, later during a conversation with the oldest, she says that she made it clear to her that it was my wife's decision, and that I didn't want them to leave. With that, she's taking responsibility in the eyes of the children for what's happening. She could have left it with the thought that this was some kind of enthusiastic agreement, that this was the best way to handle problems and relationships (because I was NOT going to "lay blame"). Or worse, she could have tried to make me out as the bad guy, convincing them that I was kicking them out. But she didn't, and that's a good thing in and of itself.

So we talked about finances. We agreed to a "budget" for how much she could afford to take out each week and still allow me enough to pay all of the bills we currently have, and still be able to feed myself, the 2 cats, and the dog.

Also, she asked me to see if I could afford to pay most everything without her income at all, which I could only take as planning for "permanent separation". I don't know if she saw it as a good thing or a bad thing to know that, if I was careful, I could scrape by on my own. Maybe that's a bad thing, as it removes a small measure of guilt she might feel about "destroying our lives". Maybe that's a good thing, as it removes that measure of guilt, allowing her to really explore her true thoughts and feelings, instead of having them all smothered in guilt.

So, then she asked if I'd like to take the girls to my parents on Thursday morning while she packs, and maybe to a movie on Friday while she moves things. She even went so far as to suggest the new Haunted Mansion movie from Disney, which is a movie that my wife has been looking forward to more than anyone in the family. A movie that I know with absolute certainty that she'd love to "share" with the kids. Yet she'd sacrifice that experience in order to avoid "whatever" if the girls were around during the moving process, and/or if I was helping her move.

My instincts are telling me that she's looking for me to "be strong" and not let her go. But I can't think of any way to do that without being angry, or making demands, or something. And now that the kids have been told, and her own family has been told, I feel that even if I came up with the perfect way of getting her to stay, she'd still leave because she's now told everyone that she's going to.

I'm lost, but I'm printing this out (my posts only), to save and share with my counselor today.

Thanks again.

Also, she asked me to see if I could afford to pay most everything without her income at all

Tell her "No, I don't think so."

This is part of YOUR integrity test ..... being honest with her about all implications of her decisions.

Say she'll have to help you out.

Pep

Well, it's too late for that, I told her I probably could if I really had to/wanted to. But I also told her that I'd have no desire to. That this is our home, and these are our things, and I really don't think I'd even want to live there if it came to divorce. Besides, I really wouldn't have any need for a 4 bedroom house living all by myself.

She said that, at least I/we know that I wouldn't be "forced out" if that happened. Making it easier to stick it out until getting a good price for the house, instead of having to get out ASAP. Of course, that would all depend on what value the home (and everything else) actually has, since my estimates for value on all of our assets are very uninformed guesses, but leave us with a net worth of pretty close to $0.00.

So I said that, when all would be said and done, it could turn out that we'd each walk out with little more than the clothes on our backs. But, since I make twice as much mooney as her, there'd have to be some kind of spousal support, to which she responded, in a very quiet voice "Only if I ask for it."

UN:

Okay. Pepper suggested I hie myself on over here and see if I can help out. Well, our sitches have some similarities but they have some important differences 2.

Here's what I was thinking, SKIMMING your thread (I'm supposed 2 be working on the house, so I shouldn't take 2 much time). Apologize if I miss some major points.

♠ You say you "told" family members about her moving out. Did you say WHY? My suggestion, since this is still new: DON'T let her keep her secret intact. Hardball, you know. Get the opinions of some other seasoned MBers before you follow my advice, though.

♠ The affection thing - the pulling away thing. She CAN'T remember your closeness, for WHATEVER reason - the A, whatever. Here's a story for you. Just a few months after D-day, like a year and a half ago, while we were laying in bed 2gether spooning, I kissed my W on the shoulder. She said "I hate it when you do that", which was such a shock 2 me that I said "No you don't!" And *I* was right, she doesn't. She loves it. But she COULDN'T love it then, just like your W can't stand the loving things you do with her now. She doesn't trust anybody, because she hasn't learned how 2 trust herself. This will take time - maybe a LOT of time. But it will happen.

♣ I think you should stay in plan A. Don't be bubbly with lovey-dovey stuff, but definitely BORDER on going OUT OF YOUR WAY 2 show her and tell her that you love her. You've NOT been forced in2 plan B. You've been "forced", if that's the right word, in2 working harder at keeping up your plan A - a remote plan A - than you would have if she'd stayed home. Be ALMOST blatant - ask her periodically if she's ready 2 come home even. That's what I'd do, anyway. Keep up plan A behavior, because you are NOT ready 2 plan B. I tried plan B once whn I wasn't ready, and I nearly wrecked myself. I had no idea what effect I had on HER until over a year later. Don't put yourself in2 a position of 2nd guessing what your W is thinking or doing prema2rely. Plan B, if you ever need it, should feel like a vacation by comparison 2 how you feel now (at least after an initial break-in period).

♣Assume that your assumptions are wrong. Don't assume she's doing something she might not be, or not doing something she might be. Sound easy? I didn't think so! This is why I'm such a big fan of communication, and so lousy at it! This time is for YOU. But then, ALL time is for you. Work on YOU. Let her work on her.

♠How am I doing? Well, it's been almost 2 years now since D-day. Am I out of the woods? No. And you know what? It even LOOKS like, many times, that there are significant clearings in the woods 2 either side of the path. But I have no business seeking them out. I have learned, as you will 2, that there is no way around my problems. I MUST, absolutely *MUST* go right smack dab THROUGH them. It hurts. A LOT, sometimes. But when I take responsibility for the things I believe I MUST do, I think I feel a lot better looking back on the choices I make.

Good luck 2 you, and have a happy Bird Day, okay?
-ol' 2long

Herein lies my most unhealthy part of this relationship.

I have no idea whatsoever how to be happy without her. I have wrapped my entire life up in this marriage and this family. Before this relationship, I had moments of happiness, I suppose. But most of those years were either spent with immediate access to my parents for support (childhood), or immediate access to drugs and alcohol for support.

I don't want to go back to the "happiness" I had before this relationship. But I have no idea how to go forward to a new happiness.

I guess that I'm just scared, and that I have no real faith in myself. My strength has always come from "without" (parents, drugs, alcohol, wife). I have no idea if I truly have any strength "within".

Nah. Really. I'm not a mess. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

And I sure wish I'd have had these thoughts before seeing my therapist today. Now I have to suffer through a week full of things that I do not want to see happening before I get to talk to him again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

I've told my parents everything. She said that she's told her family that she's moving out, but I have no idea if the "why" part went beyond the two of us not getting along.

I don't even care all that much, right now, abbout the A, or the OM, or any of those things. They still hurt, but more as a sign of just how horrible our relationship had become.

So I really don't care if she tells anybody or everybody about the A. Unfortunately, all I do care about right now is figuring out everything that I can do to "change her mind and win her back".

But, as my therapist said, I can't know what she's thinking right now. I can't decide what she should be thinking right now. If she's decided that she just cannot focus on anything positive in our home, then nothing I say or do is going to change that. But pushing the issue too much will only make matters worse, as I wouldn't be supporting her when she really needs it.

In the meantime, I have to work on me. I have to work on finding happiness within myself. I have to find things to do that will make me feel better about myself. But I can still show love and concern for her and the kids. That will not make matters worse.

Ah well. I'm all confused right now. 4-day weekend and I wish I could just work the whole time through. I'm so dreading the hours alone, with nobody to talk to, and nobody to be with. Not so much from a depression standpoint, but more from a "what do I do with myself?" line of thought.

Sometimes I think I'd be better off if I moved out. At least then, everything would be different. But staying here, in our house, no laughter, empty beds...well, guess I'd better go do something productive before these thoughts consume me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Oh yeah, one other thing I forgot, about the "coldness", no affection from her, that stuff...

Last week, when she told me she didn't have any of those feelings for me anymore, that she's just been going through the motions for a while, pretty much just out of habit, I did say...

"Well, if you don't feel like it, then don't do it. Now that I know you've just been going through the motions, I'd rather not have you show false affection. I'd rather know that, when you do show affection, it's for real."

Be careful what you ask for, because you just might get it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

U-N,

If you want to win your wife back, you will have to "act" the role of someone who is attractive, at peace with himself, kind, gentle, patient and above all, "MOVING ON" with life.

Ask yourself, "Would you want to be with someone who is sad, morose, depressed, and throwing guilt at you all the time?" and "What kind of person do you enjoy being around?" These two questions drive a good "Plan A". BE THE MAN - the best man you can be. Strength is a given, no matter how weak and destroyed you feel.

Keep in mind that Plan A is not to convince her what a wonderful guy you are, though it may have that side effect. More important, it convinces YOU that YOU DESERVE TO BE TREATED WITH RESPECT AND DIGNITY. Once you are convinced, you are ready to move to Plan B to protect what remains of your love for your wife. Because at this point, once you know in your heart that you have done all you can to save the marriage through changing and improving yourself, there is little time left for your wife to come around before you're all out of love.

Study Plan A! Make a list of traits you had when you were courting your wife that attracted her. Make a list of the things you like about yourself. Play to your strengths and be that person again. Shut off the hurt and emotional roller-coaster - leave the ride to just focus on yourself.

Very well said, and thank you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Plan A is NOT intended as a self improvement plan. Here is what Plan A IS:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dr Willard Harley:

"Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.

On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.

In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By eliminating angry outbursts, selfish demands, and disrespectful judgements the BS makes it easier for the wayward spouse to understand the selfishness and thoughtlesness of the affair and to acknowledge how wrong it was thereby helping the WS to willingly take the first steps towards recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.

Of course this doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to improve yourself and become a better man, but don't do it just to win her back, do it because it is for your general wellbeing whether your marriage survives the affair or not. One complaint of many WS in an on going affair is that they don't beleive that the BS's changes are for real and they beleive that as soon as they end their affairs and recommit to the marriage, those changes will evaporate. So keep that in mind when you attempt to improve yourself.

<small>[ November 28, 2003, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong> One complaint of many WS in an on going affair is that they don't beleive that the BS's changes are for real and they beleive that as soon as they end their affairs and recommit to the marriage, those changes will evaporate. So keep that in mind when you attempt to improve yourself. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is exactly what she's told me, more than once. That she just keeps waiting for the other shoe to drop or something, Wondering when these changes will end and unhappiness will be back. Whether associated with her affair or not, it's still a fact of our relationship that I have to deal with.

Not just showing a willingness to explore the idea of changes, but showing an ability to learn new and better habits for negotiation, and habits for eliminating Love Busters from my dealings with everyone, wife and kids included.

It's rough around here now that she's moved out, and there are so many empty spaces, and such eerie silence. Hopefully, sooner rather than later, I'll be able to shake the worst of this from controlling my mind, and be able to begin work on being a better person, one that I can be proud of all by myself.

Self-esteem issues? Nah, not a chance. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I was having trouble getting to sleep last night, because of the lonliness and such. But I finally did, and you know how?

I finally let myself be ANGRY again for the first time in about a month!

Somehow, I started thinking about how many times, and when, she mentioned that she was thiking of moving out over the past two months.

1) 9/29/03 - After I had a huge angry outburst because of the hours she had been spending on the computer, seeming to devote as much of her fre time as possible to it.

2) 10/20/03 - After D-Day Parts 1 & 2, when I found out a fair amount of what had been going on.

3) 11/17/03 - After she had spent the weekend with the other man to, by her definition, "see how I felt about him". While she was gone (with him), she had decided that she was going to move out, but didn't go through with it when she got home.

4) 11/24/03 - After I had found out that she had still been lying, and had, in fact, met the OM on her trip, and was also planning the next time she could travel to see him.

Well, every time she mentioned the idea of moving out was after a major event in the life of her affair. After the most recent "exposure", she must know that she won't be ablt to continue it the way she wants to while living here. That I'll be questioning things, and watching things, and she'd never know for sure when I might be snooping into things to see if she's being truthful.

Sure, there's probably some truth to the idea that we need to work on ourselves individually, and will have a hard time doing that when constantly dealing with each other. But it also gives her the privacy and freedom to continue doing whatever it is that she wants to do, without further risk of exposure or immediate consequences.

So I kept telling myself that is was about us, not the affair. But there's every possibility that the affair is still playing a huge role in this, affecting her thoughts and judgements and decisions (right or wrong).

So once I thought of that, I got angry. And once I got angry, I didn't feel so alone and abandoned. It felt good to finally let myself be mad about what's happening here. I had avoided it SO much, because of my past history of being verbally abusive when I get that upset. I guess it's ok to get that upset once in a while, I just have to avoid doing it right in someone's face. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

UN:

Okay. In addition 2 the A-books you've been reading, try this: "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle. It's about living in the now, not the past or the fu2re. Very helpful self-improvement book.

-2long

Thanks 2long. I got on the computer this morning with a plan to look for some books to help me with the most obvious of my personal issues.

That's certainly one of them, so I appreciate the advice. And if anyone knows a great one on "loving yourself" or "trusting yourself" or "overcoming destructive behaviors", that'd be great too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I've noticed a long history in my life of doing things that will make me feel bad about myself, knowing full well that they'll have that effect, knowing full well that when I don't do those things (or do the opposite of those things), that it makes me feel good about myself.

I need to figure out why I find it so hard to love myself, and/or why I just DON'T want to love myself.

As the old adage goes...

"How can anyone love you if you don't love yourself?"

UN:

Spacecase has posted a number of articles that you might find of use at www.iloveulove.com/resources.htm. There's a ton of stuff there, including links 2 the Harley's works. A good one about loving yourself and overcoming destructive behaviors is Greg Baer's "The Truth About Relationships".

There's even excerpts from books like the Power of Now and TTAR. Excellent excerpts about forgiveness, 2.

Enjoy!
-ol' 2long

<small>[ December 01, 2003, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Yes, I'm a pessimist, and am far worse right now than I used to be. However, here's the problem I see with Plan A in my own situation.

If I understand it correctly, Plan A is designed to separate the WS from the OP primarily through the BS (me) eliminating the Love Busters, and working to meet the WS's most important Emotional Needs.

1) Eliminating LB's is easy now, I suppose, because I have absolutely no contact with her whatsoever.

2) Meeting EN's, however, is basically impossible, because I still have absolutely no contact with her.

3) So, maybe by moving out, she'll find that she's really missing out on having some of her most important EN's met by me. But, in this case, I can't see that as applying either. So I'll run through them one at a time...

Affection - Has been/is being met by the the OM

Sexual Fulfillment - Has not been fully met by me for a while, but if it's being met by anyone, it would only be by some OM (due to NC with me)

Conversation - Has been/is being met by the OM

Recreational Companionship - Has been/is being met by the OM (at least in that her primary recreation for a long time has been internet chatting and gaming)

Honesty and Openness - If it's being met by anyone, it would only be by the OM (due to NC with me)

Physical Attractiveness - If it's being met by anyone, it would only be by the OM (due to NC with me)

Financial Support - Was being met by me, and is now being met by the Family Member that she moved in with

Domestic Support - Was being met by me, and is now being met by the Family Member that she moved in with

Family Commitment - Was being met by me with room for improvement, and is now being met by the Family Member that she moved in with

Admiration - Has been/is being met by the OM

So, of the 10 EN's listed, here's how they pan out...

OM - 4 (maybe 7)
Family - 3
Me - 0
Not met - 3 (maybe 0)

The Honesty one is difficult, because I don't know how important that is to her in general, especially since she's been so wrapped up in deception and lies lately. But ever since the first D-Day, I was being honest and open as much as I could, which seemed to be far too much for her at the time.

Also, the Physical Attractiveness one is hard, again because I don't know how important that is to her, and also because I don't ever really remember her expressing that to me. You know, like ever telling me that I looked good, or that I was attractive, except maybe in showing a physical desire for me. The only time she ever seems to show an interest in this is when referring to some famous person (Tom Cruise, Pierce Brosnan, and more recently Orlando Bloom). So I don't know if I've ever been a part of this need anyway.

So as far as Plan A and the whole concept of EN's goes, I feel like I'm left out in the cold. I made the mistake of talking to her on Saturday, because I needed to ask her about some things that were still at our house. During that conversation, she said something that I just now think I finally understand.

"I know I'm not paying rent, or utilities, or some other things. But in a way, I need to see if I can make it on my own."

Well, what I feel she really meant to say was that she needs to see if she can make it without me. Because she's certainly not making it on her own right now. She's certainly not having to sacrifice much, if anything, that I ever provided for her. She's just finding a different source (or sources in this case) to have those needs satisfied. Maybe they won't satisfy them as well as I did. Maybe they won't satisfy them as fully as I did. But it's not like she's having to completely give up anything that I provided for.

Anyway, my next session can't come soon enough. I sometimes wish I could just get someone to hypnotize me to turn all of my negative thoughts into positive ones, to make me do a complete 180 from pessimist to optimist, from self-pity to self-worth.

It's just so hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel most of the time. But maybe each day will get just a bit better, and maybe I'll creep ever closer to some comfort and safety and, eventually, happiness. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

UN:

Cripes! I had posted a long reply, and lost the whole thing!

Summary: None of this is unusual. The OM or the family member will not be able 2 meet her needs fully indefinitely.

The A is a lie, so honesty and openness will never be more than a farce with the OM.

YOU are your kids' father. Nobody can replace you there, so family commitment and domestic support will ultimately be where your strong points are.

""I know I'm not paying rent, or utilities, or some other things. But in a way, I need to see if I can make it on my own."
Well, what I feel she really meant to say was that she needs to see if she can make it without me. Because she's certainly not making it on her own right now. "

She not only needs 2 be able 2 find out if she needs 2 make it without you, she DOES need 2 be able 2 make it without you. Not that she needs 2 be "free" of you, but that she needs 2 be self-secure anyway in order 2 have an intimate relationship with you or anyone else. Again, though, I doubt the family member will be willing 2 support her and your kids indefinitely.

-2long