You are very insightful 2long, thanks again.

You actually hinted at something that has been discussed between her and I as we tried to figure out how we got to where we were at that point.

1) She's never been on her own as an adult. She was a teenage mother, lived with her mom, a boyfriend, her mom again, her 1st husband, her 1st MIL, with me, and now is back with her 1st MIL. She's never been an adult all by herself, and she's never even been a mom without help from someone else.

2) Yes, you read that right. She moved back in with the mother of her 1st husband. It's where she lived before moving in with me, so it's familiar to the whole family. Also, it's where the youngest daughter has spent most of her time (before and after school care especially), in part because her other daddy (WW's 1st husband) lived there for a while, and also just because that Grandma is retired and almost always available.

3) We've also talked about how our relationship first began while she was still married to her 1st husband, but they had been separated for several months. She had to move out of his mother's house because he needed to move in there, and she basically had nowhere to go except to move in with a friend that would have created a household of 3 adults and 4 children in a 2 bed/2 bath trailer. So I invited her to move in with me (with selfish intentions too) since I lived alone in a 2 bed/2 bath apartment. So in a way, I resued her from a bad marriage and bad living situation.

4) Unfortunately, their marriage legally continued for over a year while she lived with me and our relationship blossomed. So in a way, I was the OM in that scenario, living with and sleeping with a married woman, even though neither one of them stated any interest in saving their marriage, and treated it more like they just never "got around" to getting divorced.

5) She also mentioned that our wedding had been much more of a "fairy-tale wedding". That by marrying me, she was able to have the wedding that she was deprived of in her 1st marriage.

So, our relationship started essentially as an affair, I "saved her" when she really needed help, and I offered her something resemling a "fairy-tale life". Of course, I couldnt deliver on the entire fairy-tale, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and she no longer needed to be saved from anything horrible. And in the meantime, she's never established her own "identity" in the world as an adult.

Wierd circumstances here I suppose. But you made me think, and sometimes that's a good thing.

UN:

"So, our relationship started essentially as an affair"

Essentially nothing, your R WAS an A!

I am not being harsh 2 be mean. I appreciate the honesty. You won't be the first person 2 make such a revelation some distance in2 your tenure here either.

Let me recommend another book, for BOTH you and your W: "Passionate Marriage" by David Schnarch. Ask Pepper and Hope4future more about that one. They recommended it 2 me. You see, you both need 2 become healthy individuals before you can rebuild a healthy marriage. Your W never had the chance 2 learn how 2 take care of herself, 2 really figure out WHO she is. She dodged THAT responsibility by going from one man 2 another. But you both can find your footings, even now. It's a great book, I hope you check it out.

best,
-2long

Thanks again. I will definitely check that book out.

As far as the rest, OMG! At the time, I never, in a million years, even considered that as the siutation! I was just the "Knight in shining armor" who was destined to be with her, and her marriage was totally over except for the paperwork. How blind can a person be?!?!

Going back through history now, I was the last serious relationship she had before she met and eventually married her 1st husband, and I was the first serious relationship that she had after she left her 1st husband.

In between, she had an affair with a co-worker before me (whom she spent a night with, supposedly platonic and their last contact, about a month after moving in with me).

Then she had an affair with me (which was the main catalyst for ending the prior affair).

Then she had an EA with someone else a couple of years ago that I tried to blow off (very different circumstances...with a woman instead of a man, and she shared everything with me as her feelings grew and the attraction developed, but I said pretty much nothing because, well, I'm a stupid man).

And now she's having this most recent affair.

That makes 4 affairs that she's had, that I know of, in the past 8 years!

Yea, I need help, and so does she. Time, counseling, and healing for both of us. Maybe her leaving is a good thing. It's really amazing how a person can ignore things, pretend that they don't exist, and try to never deal with them. The number of times, in arguements about our relationship, that I've brought up those facts only as weapons. We've never discussed them. We've never dealt with them. We've never cleared the air and put them behind us. Mostly because I would lose those weapons if we did.

Wow, I/we sure did, and still do, have a lot of problems.

Cripes what a mess. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

UN:

I have faith in your ability 2 really grow as a person!

Think about it: This awareness of the amount of emotional baggage you've been carrying around all these years isn't oppressive, is it? It's LIBERATING.

Schnarch's book is mostly about sex therapy between M'd couples, but the first chapter and the later one on "building your crucible" are positively EXCELLENT. Read those first, then read the whole book. That's what I did. ...and it's the only M-related book my FWW has ever chosen 2 read herself, though we did listen 2 Greg Baer's CDs about a year ago while on a driving trip 2gether.

-2long

Well, I've got 3 hours to go until I see my therapist for the first time since my WW moved out. So much has happened since then, with emotions and everything else, not to mention what's been posted and discussed here, and also discussed with my parents (who have been awesome friends through this as well as parents). So I plan to pretty much just walk in and tell him to ask me questions, instead of just starting to talk and not shutting up for 20 minutes like I usually do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Some funny things though, some good too...

1) About myself: Some areas for me to focus on are my negativity, my long-windedness, and interrupting others. I'm sure there are many ways to interpret those things, but what I see in myself is this overriding need to be heard and to be understood, even at the risk of never letting others speak, treating them like children, and boring them to tears. This is not only something my WW has pointed out, but something I have noticed in myself, and also something that others have mentioned to me as well. So it's more than just looking for some kind of "quick fix" answer. It's something that I'm finally able to understand and try to deal with. Just food for thought today...

2) Last night, for the first time since before the first D-Day, I felt like I didn't need my WW. I went to bed, and cuddled up to the body pillow that I had taken out of the closet, where it's been for years. When I did, I thought to myself..."It sure would be nice to have a person instead of a pillow." Well, every single time I've had any kind of physical or romantic thought in the past two months, I've tried to picture myself with someone other than my WW. Every single time, I had no desire for anyone but my WW. However, last night, I thought..."Well, I don't know anyone I'd like to have here with me, but if I had to choose right now, I'd take this pillow over WW." Very different from what I have been thinking...

3) Trauma: I realize now that she's been dealing with unmet ENs and adjusting to that sad state of our R for quite a while. In the meantime, I've just tried to ignore my unmet ENs, in the hopes that things would get better, or those needs would change. Well, now, let's say that neither one ofus is having our most important ENs met. While she's been slowly adjusting to most of that over time, I've had it thrust upon me all at once. It's like slowly entering the icy waters, instead of just being thrown in. It may not be as much of a shock to her system as it is to mine, because maybe she's been "on her way out" for some time now. Hmm...

I'll be back later. I just needed to empty my head again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

So...

I met the wife and kids today. We spent 4 hours together having lunch and doing some holiday crafting for family gifts. This is the first time I've seen any of them in 9 full days!!

As far as Plan A goes, I'd have to say that I'm very proud of myself. I hardly even thought about "our problems", and never once committed any LB's. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

For the most part, I paid attention to the kids, did my part in the crafty stuff, and made small talk with WW. It felt odd, of course, and I may not have done as good a job as I thought, since I never initiated any topic of conversation. But I followed her lead, listened when she talked, never mentioned our marriage or asked "what have you been up to" or any of that.

My reason for not asking that question about how or what she's been doing these past 9 days is that I was concerned that it might come off as "too personal", or as an attempt to "pry into her business".

Actually, it was kind of embarrasing, now that I think about it. I had a few topics on my mind that I was going to bring up if there was too much "uncomfortable silence", and I forgot about all of them. Oh wait, no, she did bring one of them up. She asked me when I had decided to try this new game that was coming out (I had posted my intentions on our gaming message boards). But her voice seemed to be dripping with a sort of irritated/suspicious tone. As though she thought I was only doing it to try and keep an eye on her or something.

So anyway, it went well, though I felt very uncomfortable. As though I was meeting her parents for the first time or something. Trying to avoid using the "L-word", or calling her "honey", or giving her affectionate touches and squeezes and such. But we did what we went there to do. I enjoyed my part of it. I enjoyed watching and helping the kids with their parts. I enjoyed feeling like a family, if only for a few hours.

Most of the day, the youngest was hanging all over me. She was more affectionate to me than I have seen her in quite a while. I don't know what WW thought of it, but I wasn't concerned about it either. The child wanted to hug me and tickle me and all of that, and I was there for the kids first and foremost.

Little things that stuck out in my mind about WW:

1) She was wearing her wedding ring, which she hadn't done very often over a long period of time before D-Day (claiming it had gotten too tight with her weight gain). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

2) She wrote me a check from her new personal checking account to reimburse me for something she had to buy when she didn't have cash on her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

3) When we were leaving, after I had given hugs and loves to both kids, she came over to me and initiated a hug, saying thank you for the day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And when she did, I ignored the instinct to hold on too tight, to want to kiss her, to tell her I love her, that I miss her, and all of that. So I just said to her...

"It was great to see you again." <she kind of chuckled, as though that sounded odd> So I said "I'm serious. I really enjoy spending time with you and the girls. You take care." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Though I did slip up and blow her a little kiss (a former habit of ours whenever parting company). But when I did, she looked at me with a pleasant little smile as if to say "You're not supposed to do that, but I'm glad you did."

There you have it. The best part of it all is that I had a really nice, fun time with everyone. The worst part of it all is that I miss everyone terribly. The strangest part of it all is that I almost didn't recognize WW, and it took about 2 hours before she looked "right" to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

And now....

I don't know if I love my wife or not.

I miss the woman I fell in love with, but I'm pretty sure that I'm not in love with the woman I see now. So I ask myself some questions...

Has she always been this way?

Was she so different before?

Was I so different before?

Is this something temporary, or is this the person she truly wants to be?

Am I, considering who I am, capable of being loved by this woman?

Am I, being who I am, capable of loving this woman?

I wish life was easy...heh <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Originally posted by Uncomfortably Numb:
And now....

I don't know if I love my wife or not.

Love within a marriage is also a commitment. The commitment really counts when the feelings behind it are subject to changes inherent in every relationship.

So, now what is your plan?

Pep

Well, I'm pretty confused as things are right now. I'm really not sure if I even want her to come back home or not. Maybe I only want to save the marriage because I'm afraid of losing the "nice things" we have. Maybe I'm just afraid of being alone. Maybe I'm afraid of losing the prospect of a wonderful future. I just don't know.

My immediate plans are thus...

Today, I have a consultation with one of the best family attorneys in town. The rest of the day, I'm working, and then going home to eat, watch some football, browse the internet some (only source of human interaction outside of work right now), and then sleep.

Tomorrow, work, go home to eat, then attend a holiday play that the youngest daughter is performing in. So I'll see everyone there again, and do my best to be caring, and thoughtful, and compassionate, and not pressure WW with my feelings of loneliness or hurt.

After that, I don't plan on contacting WW about anything. For all I know, that might lead me to not having any kind of interaction with her for 2-3 weeks. But after tomorrow night, the next time we have any kind of contact at all, even through email, I'm going to let her be the one to initiate it.

Otherwise, I plan to try finding some enjoyment with some old gaming friends in a new online game coming out this week, I plan to go skiing this coming weekend for the first time in a month, I plan to continue with some of the home repair things I've been working on, and I plan to do everything in my power to put WW out of my mind.

I've already done the painful desperation thing. I've already told her that I miss her, that I love her, that I hope that we'll work through this. So I don't see much reason to keep harping on those things.

At this point, just to protect my own feelings about life, as far as our R is concerned, I'd rather just wait for her to show some interest in my existence, instead of continuing to "chase her", especially when she's asked for time and space.

<small>[ December 08, 2003, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Uncomfortably Numb ]</small>

Oh man! I forgot the other part of my "realization" from last night...

I was talking to my Dad about how the day went yesterday, and about how she just seemed to look "strange". Then I mentioned that, the whole time, no matter who she was talking to, she seemed to have this "edge" to her voice. Just this cutting, biting, sharpness...

Dad says "It's always been there."

I say "What?"

Dad says "It's always been there."

I say "What?"

Dad says "It's always been there."

I say "WHAT?"

Dad says "It's something your mother and I have noticed and talked about before, and we decided that it wasn't our place to say anything about it to you. It's not our place to judge your spouse for you. But that edge in her voice has always been there."

We realized that, with all of this time apart, it has allowed me the opportunity to finally see things that I didn't before, because I'm not dealing with them every day. And then it hit me like a Mack truck! I suddenly realized why she looked so "strange"!

I was seeing the image of her mother! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Not that her mother is a bad person. She loves her family very much, and can be fun to be around when she's in a good mood. But she's also loudly opinionated, controlling, and has been through so many poor relationships with men that she doesn't even want anything to do with them anymore. And I'm sure she'd agree with this description.

The idea that this woman that I saw yesterday, who somehow seemed "strange" to me, might actually be the very same person that I've been involved with for these past 7 years.....

That's when those questions above really started.