Hi Bill

sorry to hear the way it has worked out.

I know where you are coming from with the who, what, how and how many??? questions. I haven't got anywhere the info I want yet BUT I'm working on it with her at MC. We are lucky that we have a good MC who looks at each of us then at the us which are a couple.

You are obviously filled with anger, as to an extent I am, but I am chanelling it towards restoring the M now though I was very tempted to end it. I dont think I could have done so without the MC to help me to be honest.

You said you had filed for divorce, I assume on the grounds of adultery??? or arn't you allowed to do so in your state?
If so what has been your wifes reaction? I mean as a minister etc etc doesn't she WANT to save the M?
Have you tried exposing her affair in the area she is running it?...the church or work or whatever? this kills affairs according to all experienced cousellors.

Bill to be honest, I think your wife is totally in denial and wants it all to go away despite all the info & evidence you have, just like my wife was & is at this time. You know that is not unusual at all when an affair is broken out into the open. Most are ashamed and dont want to acknowledge what they have done. Put the shoe on the other foot, walk in her shoes for a moment, if you cheated would you want to acknowlwedge it? I dont think so. Your first instinct would be to deny deny deny regardless.
Now I am no way defending this Bill, its totally immoral but its probably what your wife is doing.

Even though you have filed - have you yet?- are you still offering her a hand to seek a MC and try to restore the M?
To be absolutely totally honest Bill I think you have jumped to quickly to the Divorce stage because remember, a lot of the time since you found out you were doing nothing but waiting & waiting, dont tell me this has not adversely affected your commitment to saving your M.
I think it just built up your anger to a place where you are exploding with it. Yes justified, but is it helpful?

Now I am NOT talking about being a martyr. I couldn't agree more with you on that score. I too could not go through what some of these men & women here have listed. I mean I admire their total commitment but I guess we all have our place where we draw a line and say enough is enough. It just different for all of us.

What I am saying is give your wife some time to consider the situation. Write to her and set out all you have found out, the STDs etc etc, how this betrayal has so hurt you, and ask her to agree on MC, a good one with a Phd at least.
Set out the consequences - not a threat - of the issues not being resolved.
Of course she may not want to restore the M and may want out.

Bill, the bottom line is this, ok you & I did not cheat, we kept our vows. Ok then what did we do or not do that permitted our wives to decide it was ok to have sex with another man or men rather than only us?
Maybe we did nothing, maybe it was all their own fault, doesn't matter.
I know like you I need understanding of all those questions to start forgiving properly, I'm just saying your wife may need more time than you are giving her to accept that.
Of course for me & my wife divorce is not an option, the Pope does not allow it, we can only separate, (or if I was an English king send her to the block...just a bit of Irish catholic humour)

Anyway, I hope you find some resolution

<small>[ September 07, 2004, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: aussie2 ]</small>

Your situations are the same as mine. The affair has been exposed on both sides. I spoke with the OM's wife. My W asked why I did not call the OM. My take was that he would deny it and make sure he covered everything up even more so that his W would never know the truth. Now my W says that I have brought pain to the OM's W. Shifting the blame.

My W also says that we do not and have never had a real marriage by her terms. I am also a conflict-avoider like you, but I do not back down when it happens. I am trying to remember that she is in the "fog". I also was pondering the impact on our child.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course for me & my wife divorce is not an option, the Pope does not allow it, we can only separate, (or if I was an English king send her to the block...just a bit of Irish catholic humour) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">aussie2 - with all due respect to the Pope, he does NOT have the power nor the right to "override" God's clearly spoken directive and/or commands.

Matthew 5:31-32 and Mark 10:2-12 are the pertinent instructions from Jesus. The contrast is clear, we are to forgive as God has forgiven us when a sinner repents. However, as a "last resort," Christ acknowledges the breaking of the covenant of marriage by an adulterer, as well as other acts of "marital unfaithfulness," and gives HIS permission for the Betrayed Spouse to divorce. Understand that this is a "last resort" and is founded upon the idea that the WS continues in rebellion and is unrepentant. The "repenting" means to be sorry about the sin, to turn 180 degrees from that behavior, and to humbly submit one's life to God and to following Him in humble obedience.

God "hates" divorce, but He also gives this ONE reason to allow for divorce.

In the case of an "unevenly yoked" marriage, you can read Paul's instructions if the WS wants to "leave."

What is NOT allowed is divorce "for convenience, for lustful desire of someone else, for 'irreconcilable differences' (read PRIDE and lack of a servant's heart here), or for any of a host of self-serving reasons."

In the "old days" divorce was not an issue. A couple caught in adultery were stoned to death and the marriage bond broken through death. Today, in the age of grace, we do not kill adulterers, but we do have God's given right to divorce as a consequence of this heinous sin. Understand that God's plan is for a Christian marriage, where both spouses are seeking God's will and growing in Christ-likeness. Getting the "me" out of the way, if you will, and replacing it with "thee."

I do not often counsel divorce, and am not telling you that. But I am telling you that God is also a "God of Peace" and HAS given believers the "option" for divorce if a WS remains incalcitrant or the BS simpy cannot "live" with the knowledge of the sin. God acknowledges that we are all "weak" in many ways. Remember that God takes His covenants very seriously and does not break them. In marriage, He entered the covenant with the two of you. But neither of you is God, you are "fallen creatures" and struggle with a "fallen flesh" all your lives. This "mystery" of one flesh that was created was broken. God WILL be there to help you both to recover and to grow in obedience to Him, but only if you both surrender to His will. Without that willing surrender, divorce is ONE of the consequences of adultery that God allows, not as a "Moses-like" concession to our "hard hearts", but as a protection for the heart of the faithful spouse.

God bless.

OK, another take from an old Catholic here. Maybe this is God's way to teach you how to truely forgive, because that would truely be devine.

You would never do it (cheat), but what do you do when someone does it to you. There have been moments in my life that I am not proud of, but how others treated me during that time made all the difference. When your wife comes out of the fog, she will be greatful you stood by her. Now this is very simplistic and I don't know your details and I realize there is only so much a human can take, but if OM wife found out, it is over now-for sure. Most men don't leave.

As for your wife, could it be that she is bipolar? Sometimes these folks do crazy things like going out and having sex, spending money. Just a thought.

You have every right to feel the way you do. I felt that way when my H hurt me that way, but thru forgivness we have built a better relationship.

If you can't forgive her, this cannot be a life sentence and I guess it is better to know that from the start. If you can, in the end she will be greatful that you stood by her. Maybe no one ever was there for her in the past. Only you can choose. We know this is not easy and I am female so I realize for men this is even more difficult. Remember, to forgive is really devine-not an easy thing to do.

hi FH

(Sorry for the hijack for 30 secs Bill)

sorry didn't mean to hit any triggers for you on scipture & divorce but besides having a little joke about it, the reason why I know about the Catholic Church dogma - now I am not talking common sense here remember but Catholic Church Law - on divorce is that my Dad who was a widower remarried a catholic woman who unfortunately developed a big drinking problem over the years and that lead to numberous ONS etc etc. The old man tried every thing you could think of, he even twice sent money and airtickets to her when she ran off with some bar bums to another state sobered up & was stranded..he was a good guy....well in the end he sought a divorce asked for the Arch Bishop who new the situation to ok it, he had to refer it and all the nasty details to Rome, where the following answer came back, I still have the letter among the few things of my dads........

"The Lord Jesus insisted on the original intention of the Creator who willed that marriage be indissoluble.( canon law aa32 337ad)He abrogates the accommodations that had slipped into the old Law.( canon law aa33 337ad)

Between the baptized, "a ratified and consummated marriage cannot be dissolved by any human power or for any reason other than death.".( canon law aa32 483ad)
Canon law 2383 The separation of spouses while maintaining the marriage bond can be legitimate in certain cases provided for by canon law.
Canon law 2384 Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign. Contracting a new union, even if it is recognized by civil law, adds to the gravity of the rupture: the remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery:

The Catholic Church blah blah blah....his Holiness the Pope...blah blah will therefore not approve or support an application before the Church Canon Court for the dissolution for your sacrament of marriage to xxxxxx.......so for & so forth.........

Further, His Holiness The Pope has declared under Infallibility that Between the baptized, "a ratified and consummated marriage cannot be dissolved by any human power or for any reason other than death. As he has proclaimed this under Infallibility it is a charism the pope enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (Luke 22:32), he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals. Therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly held irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter.

So you see where I got my comment FH...No divorce for us Catholics regardless if we wish to stay within the Church.

aussie2 - I understand. I also have no wish to begin a "debate" upon a subject that Christ has spoken definitively upon.

I do not elevate any mortal man to a position above God, nor do I believe that any mortal man can change what is clearly written in the Scripture. One might even make an argument that to attempt to do so would be "adding to the Scripture," and that is also expressly forbidden.

I do support the idea that marriage between believers IS a lifetime commitment, intended to be broken only by death. But plainly put, God would NOT lie, tell an untruth, or misstate something just to "please man." Man is the other way around, we DO sometimes do some things to "please men" when what we really should be doing is trying to please God through obedience.

But unless we are willing to call Jesus a liar, and I am NOT about to go there as He is Truth incarnate, then we have no option but to take His statement as truth, regardless of what any Pope or anyone else might say.

Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

Understand that there was no need for a divorce for marital unfaithfulness prior to Christ. Adultery was punishable by death, which then dissolved the marriage and "freed" the faithful spouse to marry again without committing adultery himself. So when the Pharisees "cornered Jesus" in Mark 10:2-12, they were talking about the only divorce that they knew of, the giving of a certificate of divorce for whatever reason or whim they chose. Remember that adultery was NOT a subject of divorce or "certificate" of divorce. The penalty for adultery was not divorce, it was death. There was no need for divorce in that case.

But with the passing of the Age of Law and the beginning of the Age of Grace that Jesus established, death for adultery no longer was an "option."

The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" "No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin." (John 8:3-11, NIV)

It is Christ who has the authority and He has spoken. Divorce IS allowed, though not preferred. Death no longer ends the marriage, but marital unfaithfulness can end in divorce.

Regardless, the issue of repentance and forgiveness comes into play rather than death as the "just penalty for sin" because of Jesus. Thus, the "preferred course" is to forgive and recommit to submitting one's "free will" to God's will, to follow in "Christ-likeness." God's forgiveness is total and complete, yet He knows that we are merely human and we can "fail" in our attempt to forgive "as He has forgiven." A divorce is a form of "death" that can, in some circumstances, "free" the faithful spouse to achieve "peace" and to perhaps even marry again.

Perhaps another thing to "ask" is the question; "Is adultery an unforgiveable sin?" Is God INCAPABLE of forgiving the sin of adultery? Is ANYTHING too hard for God?

God is Sovereign. HE makes the "rules" according to His own will, not according to what Man thinks. So when Christ says "EXCEPT" for marital unfaithfulness, God is saying that divorce is NOT prohibited, only very narrowly defined.

Suffice it to say that divorce is NOT God's intended first option. Forgiveness and reconciliation are the preferred course. The rebuilding after the "refining fire" can bring forth a purer and stronger faith in both partners with Christ as the center of the marriage. In addition, it can bring forth a stronger love between a husband and wife as well as a greater understanding of each other.

God bless.

New Jersey, I am more than willing to forgive her, already have for the things she has admitted, but she still lies about other things I know for certain which makes me wonder what else there is that I might find out six months or six years from now. How can you forgive someone who will not be truthful with you, how can you possibly rebuild trust and without that it is not really a marriage is it? I have one son in graduate school and another away at college and both are doing OK although it has been a blow to them. Perhaps if they were younger I would live with the continuing lies and denials for their sake but it was just the two of us in the house which was unbearable as we have nothing to talk about. What could we possibly work on in counseling with her unable to be honest about what she did?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What could we possibly work on in counseling with her unable to be honest about what she did? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How about "Honesty" itself as a necessity and way of life. Truth can sometimes be painful, but facing truth is the only way to overcome the hurts and to redirect one's life to one based in honesty and caring for each other.

As with most problems, "going around them" may seem like you've "gotten past it," but the reality is that it's still a problem that is festering under the surface. Sooner or later it will reemerge to cause further problems. NOW is the time to face all the "ugly truth" and begin the grieving and recovering process. Denial and "a blind eye" will not work. Only though confronting the truth, dealing with the pain, making the changes necessary, can true forgiveness and restoration be attained.

The "path" is narrow. It begins with going THROUGH the door of Honesty, not around it.

God bless.

That is what this is all about, honesty and her unwillingness to be honest. I finally realized after talking with a friend the other night that if she loved me and wanted to try to save the marriage she would tell me the truth and answer my questions. Her ego will just not let her do so I suppose. I truly think that she is not sorry for what she did as she says, she is just sorry to be caught.

Bill

you have to realise that most ws do not admit guilt and will deny deny & deny even when absolute proof is put right in front of them. One lady virtually caught her H & ow in bed together and he still denied the affair after this. So you see, it is very normal ws behaviour. Its not right its just how many react.

Please read this site & see what seems to be the usual actions of ws. it is still possible to work on your M if you want to. But you need to be prepared to work on it.

<small>[ September 24, 2004, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: aussie2 ]</small>

Bill on your August 30th post you mentioned that you filed for divorced, how is your W taking this?