Hi Julie,
If living in a small town is such a threat for telling him because you think everyone will find out, why don't you believe that he will not find out on his own? Like the old saying, two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead. What happens to your life if he finds out on his own?

I truly wish my W would have told me the truth prior to me having to uncover it. And then I wish she would not have lied to me about it once it was revealed.

Larry

Julie,

I missed the part about your current affair, until I re-read your thread. Dear, you didn't learn the lesson from your first affair, therefore the repeat.

If you don't learn the lesson from your current affair you will repeat again. I definitely suggest you get some counseling. Even if you have to go to a different town. You're going to need help and support.

By the way. No one other than the OW, my husband and me know about the A. As far as I'm concerned - it's no one else's business. I have also thanked my husband repeatedly for sparing me the horror of "finding-out" about his affair. It has helped our recovery that he chose to be honest afterall. He chose instead of "getting caught".

I am definitely worried about you repeating your affair mistakes and causing further harm to your family. You're getting some of the very best advice right here. Keep posting, ask questions and vent. Blessings CSue

<small>[ January 14, 2004, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: CSue ]</small>

Julie,

Thanks for sharing your story. I really thought I was the ONLY one out here who is choosing to NOT tell her husband. I was considering telling for a while, especially due to all i have read here, but in the end (or at least for now) I have decided to NOT tell.

You do need to look into yourself and understand why you are making the choices you have made. I have done a lot of soul searching myself lately.

Here is my story, told as breifly as possible!!

the nitty gritty affair details are as follows..

1. While engaged, 1-2 month PA with another college student with whom i had been good friends with for years and always kinda liked. OK, i really liked this person. It was a definite decision on my part to be with this person. However the marriage was being planned, even though we already had problem areas. I could not bear to hurt H and walk away. A ended abruptly.

2. 5yrs into marriage, 2-3 month PA with a co-worker. This one caught me totally off guard. It started one night when a bunch of us from work watched went out to watch the Bulls win the championship game for the first time in many years (go MJ!) i drank way too much, H was out of town and a friend didn't want to see me driving in my condition so i stayed at his appt, on the couch, nothing going on there, however, another co-worker decided he was too drunk too and that he needed to stay over too. Some point in the middle of the night he made advance and i have no memory of what happened, but when i woke, he was next to me. Where I made HUGE mistake was how i responded.... he was so thrilled to have been with me, told me how much he has liked me for so long, i ate it up and continued A. 3months into it, he wanted us to both divorce and get married. I ended it abruptly knowing that was not what i wanted. Co-worker had himself transferred to a differnt location. I never considered telling my H. I did not at all mean for that to happen. But the fact that I continued was very wrong.

There were needs not being met at home but, even back then, I could not get H to work on issues. and so....

Fast forward 10 yrs. Marriage was a MAJOR mess. Emotionally and physically, we were not close at all. I could not get H to counsoling or to even admit to problems but I was miserable (a major understmt). On the outside we were a fine couple with 2 nice kids. On the inside I was so lonley.

I start a internet chatting habit to ease the pain.

My dad, with whom no close relationship ever existed with, although on the outside he was a great "dad", has cancer and is close to dieing. I visit him a few days before his death (they, he and my step-mom, lived out of town) but I do not allow any "mushy" heart-to-heart conversation to take place. I could not forgive him for all the past hurt and years of neglect. My husband is unable to help me thru all the emotional turmoil i am having because there is not enough of a relationship between us. My dad dies, I have a break down (close to killing myself) and get into intense IC.

As I dig my way back out, I decide the marriage is over, my husband is too much like my dad, unable to show love, void of emotions. To signify this decision, I decide to meet someone from the internet. Someone I had only spoken with 2 times, thankfully, someone that turned out to be a nice person, well at least not a serial killer. Sparks fly big time with this person and a "relationship" begins. He reminds me what it is like to be intimate with someone again, even though it was in fantasy land, it felt so real, I became hooked big time. Although due to his age, 14yrs younger than me, we always maintained we had no future. He felt he was helping me thru a tough time in my life. I loved feeling close to a person again.

I tell my husband I want a divorce. He finally takes notice that our marriage is in trouble. Agrees to C, opens up and tells me why he distanced himself from me. Believes marriage is forever and does not want divorce. Power struggle occurs for about 2yrs. The more I want out, he tighter he holds on. We go to MC and Retrouvaille and learn better communication skills and learn how to be friends again.

It took me a long time to trust him and decide to get back into the marriage. The A made that time take even longer. I realize now, I was only hurting myself. I was messed up big time. But I have learned much about myself, about my emotional needs and about his.

Present day, A is over. It took me a while to end, strong emotional ties occured in that relationship but it was all fantasy life. I want to stay married and live as God intended us to live. H has learned much as well, he opens up to me now. We have both matured, we are not the same people we were when we got married. We came close to losing it all but we have survived.

H does not know of As, and i hope he never does. It would hurt him too much. Some things are meant to go to our graves.

As you said, it was MY flaw that resulted in me choosing the path I choose. The marriage issues were real, but there were many choices to make as to how to deal with them. We have faced our marriage issues, his wake-up occured due to me wanting a divorce, he does not need to hear about the As in order to have a wake-up moment.

We are both more committed to this marriage and each other than we have ever been in our lives. I know even the kids see the change (they knew of our troubles, at one point there was a short seperation that occured and they were told directly by us at that time that we were seperating).

I will be brutally honest in my actions from this day forward, but I will not look back.

As for the future, how do i ensure it does not happen again... well things are different this time. We have addressed our issues, we have both grown and learned a lot.

ok, that was no where near being short. again thanks for sharing your story.

JL, I was thinking about putting in a paragraph about the effect an affair has on children in my plea for Julie to tell, so I am glad you mentioned it. The problem is that the effects are subtle, but serious. If one's parents never have a great marriage, you, as a child, never learn what that looks like and feels like. You think the model you have, if your parents stay together and never learn of their affair(s), is what a normal marriage is like. This was certainly true in my wife's case. Our marriage was actually better in many ways than her parents'. So, she did not understand why she was unhappy with ours, and told herself she "shouldn't" be, and denied to herself that she was unhappy, so the problems that existed for her never got addressed. Those unaddressed problems in our marriage were emotional "fuel" fr her relationship with the OM. Those unaddressed problems in our marriage were also related to many of the personal issues she had that contributed to her affair. So it is possible that if she had addressed the issues in our marriage, we sould have also dealt with the other causes of her affair. But, she never knew that there was a better way - in fact when she confessed, she assumed that things would go back to the way things were before the affair, more or less. Fortunately we found Harley and found out there was another option, because I did not want to go back to the way things were pre-affair. IMO, the way they were then was miserable. The great thing is that now our children can see a different kind of marriage from the inside. I just hope the long years observing a crappy marriage didn't get so ingrained that they will repeat those patterns.

Let me begin by saying that I haven't read all the replies, only your posts. So, if I repeat, please understand.

Well, as you can see for yourself, not telling about the first affair left the door open for another...even if only a crack, it widen and you stepped through. The sad fact is once an affair has happened, the door is cracked for EITHER spouse to walk through. It brings into the marriage an option which once was not there. Only by acknowledging this fact and facing it head on can you truly shut that door and lock it....but it takes both of you to accomplish this...you can not do it alone.

Now you have found yourself in a year long affair which is risking everything you hold dear (and maybe that which the MM holds dear to him). While you have discussed ending your affair with him...you have not discussed what is happening in your life with the one person you vowed to share your life with...your H.

Since you are not communicating with your spouse, then you are incapable of joining forces to improve your marriage to a point where you will no longer be tempted to go outside your marriage. How then can you change this? How can your H met those needs which he is unware of? How can you meet his needs? You aren't talking, you aren't being honest...so where does this leave your marriage?

Those who have multi affairs tend to continue unless they really want to change AND get the professional help neccessary to discover what it is that is lacking within THEMSELVES. It is seldom a lack in the marriage or the spouse.

You had a five year break between affairs, but what was going on within during the beginning stages of attraction with both affair partners BEFORE the affair actually began? How did you rationalize to yourself that it was alright to go against your moral code and your own values? What did you tell yourself?

Do you want your marriage to continue? Do you love your H? Are you willing to risk losing him? Are you willing to break up your family? What do you want in your life? How do you want to view yourself? What do you wish to teach your children? All questions which need answers...and then actions.

IF you want to stay married...then you must end the affair!!!! Bringing dishonesty, omissions, evasions, misdirection into your marriage damages the bond that you share. It stretches it to the breaking point, even if your spouse is unaware.

Yes, telling may mean that you will lose your marriage, that is a risk you chose when you made the choice to betray...but it is the only way to bring your marriage back to honesty and sharing. Sure, you can have a marriage without those items...but it is a hollow thing and will never be anymore then it is. It will always be lacking in the strong foundation needed to weather the storms that life throws our way. It may crack at a time when most needed.

May God grant you the courage, strength, and wisdom to do what needs to be done to give you and your H a real chance to have the marriage each of you desire.

FL said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We have addressed our issues, we have both grown and learned a lot. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, you haven't. Not all of them. Not unless you KNOW for certain that your husband would not want to know. If not, then you are still being controlling and disrespectful. And how would you know without asking him? And how would you ask him without him finding out? Kind of a dilemna, isn't it?

Learning,

I agree with John. You were in a affair before the marriage, so to blame the marriage for your affairs dodges some serious issues. You have issues beyond your H. His ability to handle the marriage situation and your unhappiness does NOT mean that your marriage is free of what seems to give you license to have affairs. Have you addressed why you could have them and NOT feel that you had failed your H, or BF (before marriage) ?

The point is that while your are doing great your H has no idea who he is married to and he has no protection against your ability to deceive him and yourself for that matter.

I am glad that things are better but they are only better because your H is living in a lie. It may work for you, you may take it to the grave, but you will know that the woman he loves doesn't exist and it will hurt you, I fear.

I know the popular advice is to put your head in the sand and hope that he never finds out, but life has a funny way of kicking us in the rump when we have our head in the sand. Take it from someone who has been around awhile, it is a small world.

Yet, I am happy that you and H are making progress.

God Bless,

JL

john,

i did ask him, this past weekend, he was with someone who's wife had an affair and although the man wanted to try to work things out, they did end up in divorce. so that provided a means for asking the question without raising suspicion. I told him how I would not want to know, and i really would not. Not if it was in the past and over. He told me he WOULD want to be told. I am still taking the path of treating him how I would want to be treated. Controlling? maybe, but we all do controling acts. Disrespectful? No. The affair was, absolutely, although it was not meant to be, it was meant to be a means to ease my own pain.

JL, Yes, I have a flaw, I accept that, many of them in fact. The affair before the marriage could not of been caused by marriage problems, obviously. I have a huge EN to feel liked and cared for, my parents gave me no attention as a kid, I was the last of 4 in a extremely unhappy marriage. My mom had a nervous breakdown shortly after i was born. My sister, 13 months older than me, had medical problems and needed lots of attention. My mom talks about how easy of a baby i was, i never needed anything, i would just sit off in a corner by myself. I grew up to be extremely needy.

My husband was a very critical person (he does not mean to be, that was just his tendency, something he has worked on). I picked a person that was as hard to please as my parents were.

So, yes, i was searching even before the marriage.

I have been coming to terms with childhood issues. It is an ongoing process. Ever read "How to Get the Love you Want?" It talks about why you pick who you pick and how you can help each other heal childhood wounds. That is what is happening now. That is what we are both doing for each other.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> your H has no idea who he is married to... your H is living in a lie... the woman he loves doesn't exist </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry but you are wrong in all those stmts. There is more to a marriage than if a spouse has strayed or not. much more. To minimize everything else just because of an affair is not right.

FL said:

I told him how I would not want to know, and i really would not. Not if it was in the past and over. He told me he WOULD want to be told. I am still taking the path of treating him how I would want to be treated.

That's pretty convienent, huh? Just another way to justify you not telling. Applying your standards to someone else's life....Disrespectful judgement????

He tells you how he would like to be treated and you decide that you know better and treat him the way you think is best.

I went this route in not telling my lovely wife and it worked for a while....til she found out. She was extremely upset about the lie I lived for that time. The A was old to me but not to her.

<small>[ January 14, 2004, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: d_rose ]</small>

Julie E,
Others have made this point but let me reiterate. Although you know you're H better than the rest of us, don't assume that he'll divorce you. Even if he told you as recently as yesterday or last week that an affair (A) would be the end. I like most of the other male BS on this site told my W that if an A ever happened the M would be over. It's not. Yes, we've had tough times. You can go back and look at all my plaintive threads.

This site doesn't discuss this but I think that WS who are are truely over the OP and are about to tell their S of the A should implement a reverse Plan A . Be the best person you can be. Meet your H's needs not to be manipulative but to show the change for the better.

The problem with this is that most WS's are not truely over the OP and they get bogged doen in the feelings of loss/withdrawal and can't meet the needs of their BS.

JMHO,
cwmac

FL,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">quote: your H has no idea who he is married to... your H is living in a lie... the woman he loves doesn't exist

I'm sorry but you are wrong in all those stmts. There is more to a marriage than if a spouse has strayed or not. much more. To minimize everything else just because of an affair is not right. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, I will take your word for it. But, if what you say is true, then telling him of your A will be no big deal right?

I suspect your opinion of affairs and your H's may be quite different. You have had a few and you view it as no big deal. You are right there is more to a marriage, but question is how much more. The fact of the matter is that your H doesn't know you lie to him and have since before the marriage.

Now maybe he does not value honesty highly, then your A's and the lies won't be a deal breaker and telling him will clear the air and allow you two to work together in addressing issues.

You cannot have it both ways FL, it is either important or it is not. IF it is? He needs to know. IF it is NOT? It won't hurt to tell him and allow him to work with you.

My guess is it will be a big deal and you are just hoping to muddle through with a marriage slightly better than your parents. But, the problem is the lies, it will tear your marriage up. Please think about that.

God Bless,

JL

PS: FL, there is something else I wanted to address. You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My husband was a very critical person (he does not mean to be, that was just his tendency, something he has worked on). I picked a person that was as hard to please as my parents were.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FL, if he understood how you react to criticism and what your issues where and what you really need from men, he might change. But, my guess he would have a hard time understanding the severity of this need of yours until he understands the lengths you have gone to have your needs met. Your may not mean to be critical, but he may not realize that to get a better response out of you, he may have to go to the opposite extreme. Most would not intuitively understand this, I know I would not.

FL, isn't it time he found out who you are and what you need? If he cannot provide it, then perhaps you two should go your own directions, but you should try first and that means honesty with him.

<small>[ January 14, 2004, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

of course it will be a big deal.

i just can't imagine how we can manage to work our way thru this all. after everything we have worked thru, even with the affair working against us, we managed to get it together.

i am a nice person, i know i must come over pretty bad.

and lets say i can managed to talk to him about the most recent affair, i could see him understanding that one the easiest. but it went on for so long, and i was so messed up for so long, more than i have even admitted here. the internet was really a bad thing for me to get lost in.

obviously i am posting here because i am torn, sometimes i think the only reason i am torn is because i am posting here and reading all these stories. i don't know the right answer.

mostly i think, I'ld rather go to hell for eternity when i die because i never confessed than put him thru the hell of learning the truth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> FL, if he understood how you react to criticism and what your issues where and what you really need from men, he might change. But, my guess he would have a hard time understanding the severity of this need of yours until he understands the lengths you have gone to have your needs met. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">he has changed. he does understand how much his criticism has impacted me and why. in his eyes, the length i went to was getting to a place where i wanted to divorce. getting to that place was a very hard and painful.

i must admit, in my head i minimize the 2 prior A. The one before we got married was from before we were married (justification, i know, but i never had a hard time letting that one go). The second one, i really didn't mean for it to happen!!! And by that I mean, I did not set off to cheat on him. I had one friend tell me, what happened that night was closer to a rape than an affair, but then my reaction the next morning was so wrong and i allowed it to continue for a short time. The guy (who was a "friend") was so happy, i could bear to tell him what happened was a HUGE mistake. gee, another case of me not telling someone the truth. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

But this last one.... was so different because it was a deliberate act.

FL,

I think you are starting to see the issue of the honesty thing. It is very very subtle. YOu sort of wrote of A#1, because you weren't married, but it was a clue that things were NOT right. If you had faced that one you two may not have married. Given what has happened subsequently, that may not have been a bad thing. Perhaps you two would have talked and he would have addressed what you viewed to be his problems. But you didn't.

A#2 was actually just as bad, being drunk with another man is a good way to get yourself into trouble. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> You know that. But, it was NOT a one-night stand, and you continued this one for 3 months. Again, honesty would have ended the marriage, perhaps good, but it would certainly forced BOTH of you to face your issues. But alas it did NOT.

A#3 is intentional (actually all of them were,even #2 as you continued it for months if I recall correctly), but it was more intense because you just did not care what your H thought. Of course if that reasoning was valid you could have been honest with him when you filed for divorce, that would have speeded things up. So this A ended and marriage is better.

BUT, the pattern continues. Three A's all intentional, all meant to ease YOUR pain at the cost of everyone else, and everything else. In all cases there is no honesty, no accounting for what you have done, and no reason not to do it again when you feel the NEED to have one. Why should you face it? You have gotten away with it every single time.

FL, do you see where I am coming from?? No, matter how good you feel about your marriage now, you are still in contact with OM, you are repeating previous patterns, and you will get the same result. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

If you tell your H, he will NOT trust you for quite awhile. That will be good, it will force you to be accountable, it will change the dynamics of the marriage, hopefully for the better. But, frankly, everytime you have decided to do it, you did it.

Now one last thing. You mention that you are a good person, and you fear that I and others don't see you that way. A well founded fear, BUT actually not necessary. IF I felt you were NOT a good person, I would not waste my time posting to you. I have lots to do so do the others here.

You may not realize this, but everyone is on your side. We want to see your marriage prosper. We don't want to see you punished, or your marriage fail. But, most here know that there is no reward without risk, and you do run a risk in telling him. But, you won't acheive the reward if you don't.

Finally, you mentioned your H has addressed his hyper critical ways. Permit me to guess, it was his insecurities that made him that way. This suggests that while you feel he didn't love you, he needed you and reassurances from you. Something else to think about.

I do hope you consider what we are saying. I hope you also cease all contact with OM, it is NOT helping you at all.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...you two may not have married. Given what has happened subsequently, that may not have been a bad thing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">tell that to our 2 beautiful kids.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Perhaps you two would have talked and he would have addressed what you viewed to be his problems.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In my older and somewhat wiser perspective, i think we would of addressed the issues so much sooner and had a fine marriage from the start. But I hid from him, lying by not telling him how i was feeling way back then. How his actions were effecting me. In MC he was truely surprised to see how personally and to heart I took his critisms.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A#2 was actually just as bad, being drunk with another man is a good way to get yourself into trouble. You know that. But, it was NOT a one-night stand, and you continued this one for 3 months. Again, honesty would have ended the marriage, perhaps good, but it would certainly forced BOTH of you to face your issues. But alas it did NOT.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was a very large group of co-workers that went out that night. I did not get drunk with just one man. and i did not know he had decided to spend the night, he decided that after i was sleeping on the couch. I've never been one to drink much, it didn't take much to get to a point where driving would of been a bad idea. But you are right, it was not a one-night stand. Again, I think if i would of choosen to tell him immediately, we would of worked things out. (please do not keep saying it would of been good if our marriage had not occured or survived this long)

A#3 was just horrible wrong. I was a completely lost soul during that whole time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> BUT, the pattern continues. Three A's all intentional, all meant to ease YOUR pain at the cost of everyone else, and everything else. In all cases there is no honesty, no accounting for what you have done, and no reason not to do it again when you feel the NEED to have one. Why should you face it? You have gotten away with it every single time.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">there is no getting away with what i did. I did/do have consequences to live with. Internal ones.

i am not in contact with the OM anymore, i told him I want this marriage to work, he completely respects that. he also needs to move on with his life. i have also deleted all internet chatting/game playing(i used to play a lot of backgammon and chess) IDs. I have grown, I am NO LONGER repeating past patterns. People can change and can grow, even without the spouse knowing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Now one last thing. You mention that you are a good person, and you fear that I and others don't see you that way. A well founded fear, BUT actually not necessary. IF I felt you were NOT a good person, I would not waste my time posting to you. I have lots to do so do the others here.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I appreciate that and I do appreciate your time and others in this forum.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Finally, you mentioned your H has addressed his hyper critical ways. Permit me to guess, it was his insecurities that made him that way. This suggests that while you feel he didn't love you, he needed you and reassurances from you. Something else to think about.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you are absolutely right. I now understand what he needs from me too and i have been doing my best to let him know he is special everyday.

FL

There's a saying that the definition of a good adviser is one who tells you what you want to hear. Seems to me you've decided not to tell and I don't think you'll change your mind whatever anyone says.

What you want to hear is that it's OK not to tell. And no-one here's prepared to give you that advice except others in the same situation. Now don't get me wrong. Telling will be very painful for both of you. And it might end your M. Probably won't, but it's a risk.

But you've had three As now and on that basis I'd predict that unless you tell you'll have more. After each one you said it would never happen again, special circumstances and all that. But it did happen again.

There have been times when I could easily have had an A and what stopped me wasn't moral standards but only lack of opportunity. I know better now and I've told my W about the temptations. That has enabled us to work on the M in a way that wouldn't have been possible otherwise.

Your H will understand that. There isn't a man alive who doesn't know a few women he's attracted to and being married doesn't change that. And I'll bet a few of those he likes have given him cause to think the feelings might be reciprocated. That's not to justify an A but I am saying that we all, including your H, understand how they happen. Which also means that a marriage has to be built to be affair-proof.

This site and Dr Harley's book provide the tools but total honesty is required.

FL,

I really like what Lovesaved had to say. The comments triggered many thoughts in my head, one of which was of my batchelor days. To quote a line from "Top Gun" I lived in a target rich environment, I traveled all over the US and the world, it was fun. But, when I got married I made several decisions: one I gave my word when I made those vows, two: I realized I could and would be tempted so I made a conscious effort to avoid situations that might lead to temptation. When I travel(and I do alot here and overseas) I don't go to bars, I don't go to night clubs, I avoid any situation where I am one on one with females. I have done this for 28 years.

Why am I telling you this, because as Lovesaved stated, opportunity leads to action. I don't think any of us posting to you feel that we wouldn't fail, if tempted enough.

However the point remains we are talking about your marriage here and you seem to think if your H straightens up everything will be well, but what about him? The problems in this marriage are NOT all about his criticism of you. The huge problem is about your commitment to marriage and your vows. The issues were there BEFORE you married and he doesn't know about them, yet somehow you expect that HIS behavior will solve YOUR problems. That will only happen if his behavior is coupled with the knowledge of YOUR problems. But he has none, so the likelihood of him helping you on a continuing basis are remote and subject to pure luck.

That was the point of my comments about being a batchelor and then marrying. Luck is a bad thing to use to maintain a marriage. I knew I could be and would be tempted, so I by design removed myself from that temptation. IT WAS NOT LUCK.

You said a few things I thought I woudl comment on </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> there is no getting away with what i did. I did/do have consequences to live with. Internal ones.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And to quote Dr. Phil "How's that workin for ya?"
Not so well. Your interal consequences have so shaken you that you have had two more affairs. Whatever guilt you felt/feel, has not been able to overcome your needs even if they mean you cheat on your H.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i am not in contact with the OM anymore, i told him I want this marriage to work, he completely respects that. he also needs to move on with his life. i have also deleted all internet chatting/game playing(i used to play a lot of backgammon and chess) IDs. I have grown, I am NO LONGER repeating past patterns. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you are. You got rid of the other OM's as well, and you have ceased contacting them as well, but that didn't prevent the next and the next. You were NOT playing online games with the other two A's. Yet, you had them, so while getting away from the internet is a BETTER THAN EXCELLENT idea, it does not change your patterns. The internet just made it easier for you to connect with other males.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">People can change and can grow, even without the spouse knowing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, people can, but it is rare that a marriage does. So far your H is the only one changing here, but he is NOT the one with major issues that caused him to cheat and lie to his spouse. That person is you.

I am sorry it bothers you when I say that it might have been better if your marriage ended after each of your A's, but you weren't thinking about your children when you wanted a divorce and to leave your H. You were NOT thinking about your children when you had this last A. I don't know if you had children when you had your second A.

You are getting all emotional about the wrong thing. Yes, your children might not have existed or they would have had a different father, BUT this issue is NOT whether or not your children exist and have been fathered by your H. The issue is what are you going to do about your marriage? The children are here, the marriage vows have been repeatedly broken, and you feel because your H has changed and addressed his issues that somehow your failures and your issues are somehow wiped out.

I don't think they are. I suspect that is where the major issue between us lies. I don't think the issues can be addressed until you face the consequences of them, whatever they may be. They won't be properly addressed until you can ask your H for help and let him help you and love YOU, not the facade you have offered him.

He does not know you FL. That is the problem,and that is what will keep deep intimacy from your marriage. You see the issue is not whether you can stay married to your H if you tell or don't tell. No, the issue is about building a marriage that truely nutures you and your H. IF you want to settle for what you have had, and what your parents had, you might get that if you are lucky and have no more affairs.

But, my guess is that you will, because your issues have not been addressed and because your H doesn't know about them he will "fail" you again, and you will respond again the same way. You have NOT faced the consequences of what you have done. You have NOT seen the consequences of what you have done, and therefore, these consequences are NOT REAL TO YOU.

That is my thinking FL. Perhaps I am wrong. But, I think the data is on Harley's side on this one.

Whatever you do, get help for YOUR issues. You owe your H at least that much. You have robbed him of so much, most of all you have robbed him of you, while you gave your love, attention, and time to other men. FL you are a gift in his life, and you have given it to other men.

God Bless You,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He told me he WOULD want to be told. I am still taking the path of treating him how I would want to be treated. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am simply amazed that you can write this and also say you are "recovered". I just don't get it. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Controlling? maybe, but we all do controling acts. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, we don't. Maybe - MAYBE - we all do controlling things - occasionally - , but no, we definitely do not all do them repeatedly and intentionally, like you are doing. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Disrespectful? No. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This strikes a particular nerve with me because it is EXACTLY what my wife did repeatedly, and I felt it was EXTREMELY disrespectful, despite her past and current assurances that she always respected me. How can anyone say they respect their husband, and then give him what they themselves want, when they have been told specifically that he wants something else? To me, it sounded and felt like: "I don't care what you say. I know better than you what you really want." or: "I don't care about you. I am going to do what I want." I can't think of a better word to describe the first than "disrespectful", and the second is the kind of selfishness that is the essence of an affair - and was a crucial part of my wife's actions (and most other WS's). To say you have recovered while expressing either of those sentiments is just beyond my understanding.

In fact, it was partly my wife's knowledge that I would want to know that led her to confess to me. I understood that, and it was partly that dramatic demonstration of her change in attitude from: "What I want is more important than what you want." that convinced me to stay.

The minimizing of your prior two affairs, and saying only the last was intentional is "affair" thinking, not "recovered" thinking. You are expressing the same kind of thought patterns my wife used to justify her actions to herself for the entire course of her affair. What eventually convicted her of her culpability was something she did right before the last night she was with him that made her realize that she was doing it intentionally. Up until that night - for THREE YEARS - she kept telling herself that having sex with him was not intentional - she just wanted to spend time with him and when she did, sex "just happened", sometimes. She defended this attitude even MONTHS after DDay. This really strained our recovery from my perspective, because if stuff "just happens", then you can't really prevent it, can you? Accidents "just happen", not affairs. As JL said above, in order to prevent an affair you need to consider yourself vulnerable, and take whatever steps you need to take to make sure you never get in a situation where one is possible. In order to do THAT, you have to know what makes you vulnerable. In order to do that, you have to get past affair thinking - which includes: "I know better than my spouse what to do", "stuff just happens", "I will do what feels best for me", and the worst: "dishonesty to protect someone is OK". I don't see you doing that. I see you SAYING that you want to protect your H from the pain, but acting in a way that protects YOU, not him, from the painful consequences of your actions.

But, I suspect the real key is this: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> i just can't imagine how we can manage to work our way thru this all. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You sound like you are exhausted. Trying to control everything can do that to someone. Let go and ask for help from your H. It can be done. Harley has helped thousands of couples do so. My wife and I are doing it. The story of the first half of our recovery is here: http://www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com/images/May%20%202003%20%20eNewsletter%20PT%20email.doc , starting about 1/3 the way down the page under the heading "After the Affair: a perspective on the road to recovery". Our MC says his success rate is better than 95%.

But, 95% is not 100%. When my wife confessed, she said "I am not worthy to be your wife. You can throw me out or whatever you want." She was right - I could have. I didn't, because I knew her confession honored me - she knew I would want to know. I stayed because I had made a committment when we married that I did not want to break, if I could find a way to keep it. And, I stayed because her confession was a dramatic action that showed me that she had turned toward me, something I had longed for for years, and didn't want to walk away from now that it was finally happening. You have turned part-way toward your husband. Don't stop. Complete the turn, until you fully face him. Don't cheat him by giving him only a part of yourself. Tell.

thank you for your replies again. i am not sure what i will do yet, but i will continue to pray about it.

just learning, i have made many changes too. you do not know me enough to say i have not done anything to address my issues. i have and i continue to. afterall, this is why i am here. i do not put all the blame for the state of my marraige on my husband. i hid my feelings from him early on, my flaw, i have trouble really trusting and really believing in and feeling another's love for me. my flaw. i was too into my career and not sensitive to his feelings and needs. my flaw. i do not expect his behavior to solve my problems. i do believe his behaviour can either make my childhood wounds worse or help heal them and that i can do the same for him. we are now both trying to understand each other intimately enough to be able to do just that. he does have knowledge of my problems now, my fear of trusting and believing in love/commitment. that is my core problem. he does not know how i acted during a time when everything got to be too much for me. he knew i was hurting back then, i was sucidal, the pressure of it all was just too much for me. i ended up in a mental health program and off work for 3 months (and since i was/am the main bread winner of the family, not working was another hard blow for me).

everything was not just due to the state of the marriage. my dad's cancer and his death blasted my life. thankfully, i did have my other siblings to lean on, we all struggled the same way, we all lived the same childhood and had scars due to the neglect. we all ended up on meds. i guess mine was the most severe as i also ended up taking a medical leave. he knew i was hurting but he insisted it was all about my childhood and dealing with my feelings about my dad and therefore not his responsiblity. and was not capable of helping. not capable because our relationship was so messed up by then. and yet the fact that he knew our relationship was so messed up and did nothing about it, i don't understand. i have a hard time understanding why he fought me for so many years when i said we needed counsoling. he only decided to seek help when i was out the door and his life was about to change so dramatically. for the record, i do actually bring a lot of positive into his life too, he has the ablility to be a freelance photographer because i have a high paying job, i was 100% behind him when he wanted to quit his job and become a freelancer. and i have been a wonderful mom to our 2 children, 9yr boy and 14yo girl. i do have a good heart and many virtures along with my flaws.

i know the way i view the 3 different As are hard for some to understand. I was not married the first time, i had not yet made a vow in front of God and him. but it was a HUGE SIGN that there were problems and i should of dealt with that then. very true.

I was married the 2nd time. Yet in my heart i never meant to have that happen. it was not a betrayal of the heart. it was a stupid physical act followed by a confused reaction, one i got under control as fast as i could. but again, I can't deny, there were problems even then that should of been addressed. I absolutely should have confessed back then. i really wished i would have found this site then. but all seemed to have been ok, and life continued, the OM moved out of state, we got pregnant with our 2nd child who was born premature and did not survive and that event brought us so close together while we lived thru it. i swore to that child in a note that was buried with her, that i would honor her by making this marriage work. but we drifted back apart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

we had a healthy son, and our family grew but we stayed distant. and then with all that went on with my dad, i 100% broke.

so i find i am just rambling here and probably just sound extremely defensive. when what i really want to do is to thank you all for your sharing here.

john, thank you for sharing your story in particular. you give me a lot to think about. i do not mean to strike any nerve in you. i appreciate your openness. i am actually listening, in case you are wondering...

Don't worry FL, we are listening to you as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

That is why we are responding as we are. You have had many problems in your life, of that there is no doubt, but the issue for discussion is how to address them. You past behavior has been to run and bury them. That method of addressing them has not worked, hence our suggestions for honesty.

As for your H and his help or lack of it, I could offer you a variety of reasons why he did what he did, and interestingly they would make sense and strongly suggest that he did NOT want to see you hurt. But, really it is for you and he to address this. My personal bet is that he simply didn't know how and was waiting for you to tell him how you needed him to address them. I may be wrong.

Having gone through the loss of both of my W's parents and one of mine, I can say that it is very hard on the opposite spouse. I know my W still hurts from losing her parents and it has been almost 2 decades for one and over 15 years with the other. I wish I knew how to comfort her, but I am not sure how I should even bring it up. She is an only child so there are no siblings for her to talk to. I feel pretty helpless sometimes. I wish she would tell me what she feels about their loss and let me help, but she does not.

Perhaps your H feels in a similar situation.

I will say this again to you, I have seen it here time and again, the best way to get help is to ask for it. And the best way to recover a marriage is allow the other spouse to be helpful and help you. I know it sounds backwards, but most people want to be needed, especially by someone they love.

Some things to think about.

God Bless,

JL