Midwest,

Exposure is one the clearest, fastest and most profound ways of opening the affair to the light of day and creating conflict within the affair. Think of it this way.....by keeping her secret, you are in essence enabling the affair. That's right. You are a partner in crime so to speak because these kinds of A's (ESPECIALLY work related A's!!!!) need secrecy to grow and fester. Will she be angry....oh yes! But as long as you don't make exposure a "punishment" (precisely the way you are threatening) then the anger is short live. It's important to understand the PURPOSE of exposure and how it helps instead of harms. When exposure is done like this:

"X is having an affair with X. I am doing my best to rebuild my marriage and I need the help of friends and family to reach my wife. I am committed to my marriage and am not trying to harm her by making this public, however, on the advice of noted psychologists, destroying the secrecy of an affair is important in ending them and helping the wayward spouse come back to the marriage. Forgive me for burdening you with this information. Thanks for any prayer or help you can provide."

That is a far different message from the one you are currently using. "come back or else" (I'll use exposure to punish you.

However, strictly personally, I do prefer a short, but stepped approach to exposure. First you tell family and very close friends. HER PARENTS...are in this group. You need their help especially since she is worried about them knowing. Its precisely that kind of "conscience" that her parents disapproval will produce that helps a WS feel the guilt, remorse, and selfishness of their actions. Without consequences....the addiction of the affair is hard to fight. It's works like a drug. Affairs thrive in secrecy.

The next step would be church, work, other people she respects. But this must all be motivated by your desire to end the affair and rebuild the marriage and NOT to punish or humiliate. If your motives are where they should be, the WS can usually understand the reason for exposure, and is far more forgiving.

Don't expect a pleasant reaction...she will in fact go ballistic (usually short lived)...but remember, that until the affair is over...marital recovery is impossible. Let me repeat that...UNTIL the affair is over, nothing is possible. Ending the affair, when your spouse is in a fog induced euphoria is not easy....because they have no desire to do it. Exposure is a strong weapon in the arsenal against infidelity...used carefully and ethically, it is a powerful tool.

Does that make sense?

Star:

My wife agreed to MC and I have been interviewing by phone a couple of different ones. We have another dalemna or asset, she works within the mental health field. We are trying to find a MC that will not talk amoungst their peers. She said the "so called" oath of secrecy works well on paper, but people like to talk and do talk. Records can be viewed by more people than the public would like to thnk and this is a state regulated facility.

Before I tell her mother and additional family members, I want to see how the first couple of sessions go. She has yet to want to dig into or commit to the Policy of Radical Honesty which is concerning to me. I will know very soon if she does start opening up.

I will not threaten her with exposure. I like your approach and advice. Use the exposure as a helpful tool and not as a punishing tool.

Today, I was discussing a couple of the MC's with her and she stated that the one was too old and doesn't understand today's world. I believe she wants a less conservative one and someone to tell her she was right and justified to have done the things she has done and is doing. You do agree that I should wait and see how a couple of sessions go before additional exposure?

One other problem, the public supported mental health facilities are staffed with a ton of misfits, if I may say. One of their MC have been married five times. You cannot believe how many single parents that have unwed children with kids work right beside her. I am not picking on or making judgments on anyone's personal situation, but I think the element she works in has had a negative affect on her. Her best friend at work has been married and divorced twice with live-in BF. She hates men but still lives with one. The element brought her down where she was always a strong church going, bible reading, wonderful mother, and great wife.
We lived for the care and betterment of our children like most families do. I want her to quit the job she loves, which is another challenge. This is one of the most unbelievable thing that I could have ever imagined happening.

I value the information I have read at MB and I am pleased to have someone to share my story with. Thank you all and thank you Star.

Midwest

Midwest,

I've got a great MB counselor for you! She is cool, innovative, funny....and relates well to both men and women. She was trained by Willard Harley...and you never have leave your house...it's done by phone and email and completely private and separate from her contacts. I mentor couples this particular coach and am completely my training concurrently. www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com Penny Tupy. I also really like Jennifer Chalmers....Harley's daughter...information on the home site.

Marriage coaching....is different from marriage counseling. Your wife's mental health training won't help her so much LOL. It's all about how to get out of this mess....instead of how you got into it. Almost everyone can see that. What they can't see...is how to get it right.

My wife is not trained in mental health but simply works among all the counselors, etc. She wants a face to face person at this time. She doesn't like the things I am telling her about MB and Dr. Harley. Probably, because she knows deep inside she will be further exposed.

She continues to tell me she isn't talking to OM but I am sure she is since he works within the facility. I just bought into a service to do a search on his unlisted phone number. I want to find out more about the OM as part of my exposing him to her or making her think I know more so she will open up and quit lying me. Once I get his real name, I can verify his employment, etc. What do you think about this Star? Any Objections?

Midwest

Star:

I just read Penny Tupa's section on exposing the affair. According to her information, I need to continue to expose my wife's A. Won't this ruin her deisre to get counseling? It makes sense but what do I do? Do I contact her boss to see if she can figure out the exact person's name and job, etc? Do I contact her mother and brothers and sisters. or Do I give her a chance to open up to the MC first? Thanks in Advance.

Midwest

I know this is off the subject you are currently on, but when you mentioned about your wife wanting someone in tune with "today's world," I have noticed that with my WH also. He does want someone to tell him he did the right thing. He wants someone to agree with him.

And he has been mentioning a lot lately about so-and-so being on marriage number 2 or 3. His IC is engaged, and is divorced. It makes me nervous, but I also realize to some extent it is the fog, because the H I know doesn't believe in D. I just have to hope and pray he comes out of the fog before doing something that he will regret.

You sound like you are very level-headed and committed. Good luck and stay strong.

Amy

Amy:

I am losing my patience fast. Right now she is cold as ice with me. She is in our bed tonight for the first time in a couple of nights. She has been on the couch and three days ago, at the OM's house. I tried to snuggle up to her and she shrugged me off and told me to leave her alone.

I asked her again how she expects counseling to work when she won't open up and tell me the truth about everything. It sounds like your H wants everything his way too. Does he have any remorse at all? My W doesn't have any. You would think I was the one who cheated since I am making all the effort. I am debating on contacting her boss at work tomorrow. I know this is where all the contact with the OM is being done. Star says exposure is a must and Penny did too. Penny says you must treat the OP like a drug dealer. Gotta go. Daughter needs computer. will finish later.

Midwest

Midwest -

My WH has no remorse with me whatsoever. In fact, he said at our MT session yesterday that he simply cannot show me the guilt I want to see from him, because he doesn't feel guilty about what he did at all! Why? Because after a couple months of the EA, he was in love with her, so it just made sense to him to MAKE love to her. So, since his feelings were there, he did nothing wrong. Hmmmmmmmm. Fogese, for sure.

I of course told him that if he was in love with her and wanted to do that, he should have waited and divorced me first. And he admits that that is his mistake. That is his one mistake.

I think it is their guilt that makes them do that. My WH has done to himself and me and his boys what his whole life to him was unthinkable. And I think it has almost broken him. I think that is where this behavior comes from, their inability to process what they have done. Does that make sense?

All I can advise is patience. Once you can differentiate between your W and your WW, I think it will become easier for you. IF you want it to.

I would also suggest waiting for her to intitiate any type of snuggling or physical contact. Every once in a while, my WH needs a hug, and they are much different hugs when he initiates than when I do. When I do, they are stiff and uncomfortable and not comforting at all! When he does, they are comforting and heartfelt and make me feel better.

Anyway, good luck. I am off to yoga! Keep posting! Keep reading! Keep hoping! It gets better and easier with time.

Amy

I just read Penny Tupa's section on exposing the affair. According to her information, I need to continue to expose my wife's A.

Willard Harley has been known to say "put it on the evening news". If you have proof that your wife is continuing to see this man, then as difficult as it may be...I think you should make that step. My only worry is that you have sort of hung it over her head. You need to make sure that you don't do that.

Won't this ruin her deisre to get counseling?

It's a typical ploy of WS's to say....if you tell anybody it's over!! That's part of their manipulation to keep the dirty little secret under wraps. It is not without risk...but allowing the affair to continue is a greater risk to your marriage than exposure is. At first, she may threaten not to do lots of things....but when the dust clears...it's usually different.

It makes sense but what do I do? Do I contact her boss to see if she can figure out the exact person's name and job, etc? Do I contact her mother and brothers and sisters. or Do I give her a chance to open up to the MC first? Thanks in Advance.

I think you should definitely call her family...and ask for their help in bringing your wife home. Tell them how much you love her, and how devasting this is for you. Tell them you hate to burden them with this information, but you are hoping that the lack of secrecy will bring this out in the open and end the affair. Tell them you are completely committed to rebuilding the marriage.

The boss and other work stuff...you can wait until after the MC...if she will still go. If she won't go...then you do it there as well. But no marriage counselor in the world can save this marriage until the affair ends. There is a very real possibility that your wife may not come back. It's a awful truth that most of us have faced. Any of these strategies carry risk...and yet none is greater than letting the affair grow and mulitply in darkness.

This will be very unpleasant for her and she won't like it...but it's not anymore unpleasant than the pain and humiliation you face everyday. Even if your wife doesn't agree to talk to Penny....it would be worth to you to have a session about exposure to help you feel confident about this phase. It's scary I know. I'm so sorry you're in this position.

((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))

Star and Amy:

EXPOSURE, What a Powerful Tool it is.

This exposure knowledge you gave me really made sense to me and with this knowledge; I decided to use it as a tool to obtain the truth from my wife. Here is what happened: First I subscribed to an investigation company that does reverse phone number searches for the purpose of finding out who the OM’s name and background information, etc. I figured once I had the name and address, I could get license plates, employment information etc. My goal was to force her to be truthful.

After I hired the company, I decided to confront my wife with the information. I informed her that she has never quit lying since the A started and that she continues to hide the truth from me. I told her she left me no choice but to go meet with her mother, brothers, sisters, and her boss. I told her I believed her BF works with her and I am going to get to the bottom of this A. I told her that I demand to know the truth. She said, “Why are you doing this? I hate you. This marriage is over. I should have moved into the apartment yesterday like I planned. You ruined any chance you ever had to save this marriage, etc. I will smear you to your family. I will tell them all of your secrets. I will never go to counseling, I will ruin your business, It is over with forever, etc., etc., etc.” She was livid and hated me deeply.

I then told her that I already viewed the marriage as being over with and I told her I was falling out of love for her anyway. I told her that she was at the Y in the road and if she chooses the OM and moves out, I will never take her back. I said, “No truth, no saved marriage anyway so it doesn’t matter. No truth, full exposure to everyone.” I then said, “If you don’t tell me, I will lay the information about your BF on your lap within seven days anyway so you might as well tell me. This is your last chance to redeem yourself, etc.” After about 15 minutes of badgering her, she started laying out the details as I demanded. I learned his full name, where he lives, where he works, what he does at work, etc. As she talked her voice became calm and I felt like I was talking to my old wife again. The OM does work with my wife, as I expected. She told me details of every date and there was a bunch of them. There were dinners, motorcycle rides, hanging out in the parks, several movies, lots of hugging and kissing, lots of “I love you” statements, lots of lunches, etc. She laid it out to me in substantial detail. She even told me of men she had previously been attracted to but she never acted on at previous jobs. She even told me about a deep secret she had that happened a year before we met. She was able to use this time period as a way to clear her conscious.

It turns out, I had previously met her BF at a restaurant about a year before the A started and I remember him. She was living two different lives for the last six plus months. For the first time since D-Day, I believed everything she said. By the way, most of the previous explanations given to me were not true. She still insists that she never had sex for not having sex made it safe and acceptable and un-adulterous, she believed. She viewed having sex and A as the same and could justify the rest of what she was doing as just friendly fun. She knew the relationship was progressing right prior to Christmas when the kissing and the I Love You statements began and it was making her uncomfortable. She still couldn’t stop seeing him because she felt a real love for him.

I asked her why it all happened? She said she knew the relationship could not go anywhere because of the 14 year age difference with her BF, the fact the relationship was built on lies and deceit, and the fact that she was causing the kids and me so much pain. She said my open and visible pain, my tears, my anti-depressant meds, which I never took in my life before now, the destruction of the family was her driving force for her to want to move out so she didn’t have to see it anymore. Previously, I left her BF a message on his phone recorder and told him he was party to ruining this marriage and our children’s lives and I informed him that my lovely cheating wife will eventually start lying to him and that they will eventually turn against each other. When I kicked her out a few nights ago, she went to his house and slept on his couch. She knew that night she didn’t belong there. The guilt was getting to both of them. She was crying to him about losing her kids as a result of this A. The relationship was beginning to break and tumble one day at a time, but I didn’t know it.

My wife told me her driving force to seek counseling was to have the MC help her keep her job. She told me she loves her job more than her BF and me and she knew I would insist she quit it. She told me that her BF was planning on quitting his job because he hated it, but when they began dating, he put up with it because of her. She told me now that her A is over with and she is strongly suggesting for him to quit soon as he previously planned. In the mean time, she is going to avoid him at work completely and she said she will not even talk to him any longer as a friend. Of course, no more lunches and she will account for her time to me.

That all happened last night and today she feels like I betrayed her since I was going to get even by causing her to lose her job. I said in response, “My goal is to have you look yourself in the mirror and see what you are doing and to see what you have done”. Today, she agreed to counseling next week. Our first session is next Friday.

MB, Star, Amy and others have helped me immensely. I know we are not out of the woods but I see some light and I see more hope than before. My W has nothing to hide as of now. I do recognize that the source of the immediate problem is still close by but I am not done with that issue yet. I want to find a way for her to keep her job, if I can. I am going to begin the process to find out what lead to the A and where and when we disconnected emotionally. I still can’t believe this happened to my wife since it is not even the woman I have ever known. Sorry for the lengthy post. I am going to try and take her to San Francisco to the next weekend seminar in late April. I will keep you posted.

Keep working on your case Amy. Everyday is a yoyo for us all.

Midwest

Midwest,

For the clarification of others...what you did yesterday was "confrontation" and not exposure. Sometimes, confrontation is enough...and I'm very glad it yielded good results before you had to go to exposure which can be pretty traumatic. I am very very encouraged by the results. I would like to caution you strongly about making DEMANDS, ULTIMATIMs etc. You need to really work on the Love Busters okay?

Now...you have the UNENVIABLE task of helping your wife get past withdrawal. Type A behavior...no LBs, filling needs...having a short period of lower expectations will be in order so you don't chase her away.

Get ready for a pretty bumpy ride through the beginning of recovery. Some folks believe it's even harder than what you've already done. Be prepared to face some very hard truths about how you guys got in this mess...and try your hardest not to throw this in her face everyday. I couple of weeks of more calm if you can manage it and it will help immensely.

You are in my prayers.

Star

I do not feel home free by any means. I have prepared myself for W depression to kick in. The loss of her BF will be tough for her. This issue is still on the table since they both work at the same place. I want to find a way to allow her to stay in the job she loves.

The threat of the exposure was enough. Her mother is in her 80's and very conservative Christian and it would have devistated her. That is why I wanted to make the threat first in hopes that it would work. We will see how things go from here. I really want to go to Dr. Harleys weekend workshop in a couple of months. I will see how we progress in the next few weeks.

I am so impressed with MB and the help that it brings. I just hope we become one of its success stories. I will keep you posted. Thanks again for your time, experience and knowledge. Thanks for the prayers too.

Midwest

MW....I went to one of the weekend seminars....It was great! It really did help turn my marriage around. Good Luck!!!

Midwest -

I am glad you experienced some success today. Follow star's guide about it not being smooth sailing. You do not seem to be delusional about what is going on. I think you know what you are in for.

Keep posting! I look forward to hearing about your journey. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

Amy

Some of the backlash has already begun. Wife is really ticked at the fact that I was going to tell her boss and family. She doesn't like the thought and idea that I have something over her head even though I haven't brought it back up since last night.

She did allow some intimacy though which is a breakthrough all by itself. We both have agreed that the M is in serious trouble and she feels that the MC may be our one and only last hope. I plan on learning more about Dr. Harley's Emotional Needs approach even as I attend the local MC. I have already bought his book. Wife still resists Dr. Harley and his approach. She hasn't wanted to take the time nor had the desire to learn it either. I did my ready out of desperation.

Midwest

Star:

Tell me if you would, is it possible for my W to continue to work at her job if the OM remains there? I am bothered by all the reading I have done and everything I read states that absolute no contact is a must. Is it possible for a recommitted spouse to simply avaoid a co-worker? She has never had a job she loves as much as this one. She has enjoyed her job long before the A. She claims she is strong enough to let the A die now that everything is on the table, such as the details of the A, etc. She doesn't want the embarrassment of the exposure within her office nor does she like me having this to hold over her head. As I stated earlier, we start local MC next Friday. There have to be cases where two wandering people just go there own way and chalk it up as an event that should not have happened, wouldn't you think? I am totally open to your knowledge.

Midwest

midwest - That is really good news. Have you read the "quick clicks" on the home page here about how an affair should end, overcoming resentment, restoration, and reconciliation? They will help you.

Also listen to what starfish says. She is an expert. Lots of us are very new to this and still trying to figure out which way is up.

MW,

Tell me if you would, is it possible for my W to continue to work at her job if the OM remains there? I am bothered by all the reading I have done and everything I read states that absolute no contact is a must. Is it possible for a recommitted spouse to simply avaoid a co-worker?

Possible...remotely. Probable...hardly. Desirable...not at all.

She has never had a job she loves as much as this one. She has enjoyed her job long before the A. She claims she is strong enough to let the A die now that everything is on the table, such as the details of the A, etc.

Do not let her make you responsible for the fact that she has messed up the best job she ever had. She's going to try. She's going to blame you for the fact that she may have to quit this job. If the tables were turned...and you were boinking your secretary...how would she feel about the two of you continuing to work together? Is that something she would tolerate? Would she feel sorry for you if it were a job you loved?....or would she be more interested in saving your marriage and getting you away from the temptation? If she were truly strong...and your marriage wasn't so vulnerable, this would never have happened at all. The conditions that created that vulnerability must be addressed. What is the real likelihood she can avoid this person? How realistic is that? Some of this is for you to work out with your MC and your wife. The best chance you have of getting past an affair, is to use extra ordinary precautions to avoid a lover. But here are Harley's exact words:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It goes without saying that when lovers are fellow employees, a job change is absolutely essential to marital recovery. How is total separation from a former lover possible when you work together?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She doesn't want the embarrassment of the exposure within her office nor does she like me having this to hold over her head.

It isn't much different for you when you think about it. Isn't the affair hanging over your head? The threat of losing your wife? You both face a threat of losing something important to you. Affairs cause humiliation for all of you....does she think you've been spared?

As I stated earlier, we start local MC next Friday.

Good....I hope you picked a good one and that he can truly help the two of you.

There have to be cases where two wandering people just go there own way and chalk it up as an event that should not have happened, wouldn't you think? I am totally open to your knowledge.

One of Dr. H's most startling discoveries was that marriages can both survive and later thrive after infidelity. Yes, there are cases where people put this event behind them, plenty!!...but it is not easy or painless and often comes with great sacrifice. The payoff is worth it....that much I promise you. But right now, your wife is unwilling to face the truth about the fall out from these selfish actions. She wants to do what she wants (keep her job) at the expense of your feelings. Her job has become a huge risk to the marriage...but you're supposed to suck it up because she loves her job? The only way I can see that happening without hurting your recovery....is if the OM leaves the company. You mentioned earlier that might be possible. But they can't work together if you want your marriage to heal.

Star:

I already knew the answer to this question before I asked it. I was hoping you would tell me that life can resume to some normalcy by leaving some things in place. She told me when I originally exposed the A, she broke off ties with him for a short time. After one bad emotional night from me, she told him about it and he said, "You need a hug". She said that is all it took for it to start over. It appears the OM is putting the burden on my W to decide how far she wants to go or not go. He told her he doesn't want to be the reason for the Marriage breakup. Of course, I don't trust him. He is a professional pychological tester and can read and manipulate people from experience. Not to say, I am only blaming him.

She still has not taken any real blame for her actions. I am not sure if she ever will. Thanks for your continued information.

Midwest

Midwest -

They really do follow a script, don't they? The OW put all the responsibility on my WH for the A as well, how far it would go.

OW (who was also my "best friend" - gag) has even gone so far as to tell me after D-day that she always had my best interests at heart, that she always encouraged WH to come back to me, and the lastest was that she didn't have a hand in breaking up my marriage - I was doing a good enough job on my own.

Which is why you should avoid contact with the OP at all costs. All they can possibly do is pi** you off! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

If the OM doesn't like his job, maybe he will do something "honorable" - gag gag - and leave the job. But that will only happen, Murphy's Law, if you prepare yourselves for her leaving, if you know what I mean.

She will not take responsibility until she is well out of the fog. She is still in and out now. But you have managed to reach her, and that is important.

Have you read posts on here about WS after their marriage is well into recovery, and their thoughts and feelings as they remember them as they were in the fog, and as they were coming out, and as they are now?

I don't know where they are, but I'm sure star can point you in the right direction. Those posts give me hope that some day WH will say all the things I so desperately want to hear.

Good luck, keep your chin up, and KEEP POSTING!

Amy