HI, I'm another loving husband whose world just crashed.

D-day was 3/11. I came home that night a little late from work. I called before five to let her know. I kissed her and started dinner and asked if she'd like to help out. She looked at me with a sense of sadness I have never seen. I kneeled at her feet held her hand and asked what's wrong?
I had to pull her keys from her hand and cajole her to tell me, no matter how bad it was. I was imagining the worst, an uncurable disease she would die of soon.
Much worse.
She said she was in love with a married other man. Asked her if she had acted on that. She said she had sex with him in his trailer a week ago. And she had known she loved him for two weeks before that.
Well, much gnashing of teeth, wailing, and questions followed. I asked so many, she answered few. Panic attacks for the next few days ensue. One small favor was that it's spring break here at work.

Long story follows.
We were married 2yrs 2mo 18days ago. Both of us are Mech Engineers. Met in thermo class. Cute huh? I was instantly attracted, she was already engaged, I backed off romance and just grew to be her best friend.

She suffered from an Intestinal disease. It started after hooking up with her college SO.
It progessed enough that she had some of her small intestine removed. He was there but only visited her once in her week of stay. She finally stopped ingnoring that he was a multilple cheater and called it off thier engagement.
We grew close over a couple of years and started dating exclusively. We met each others folks. I proposed on knee. We bought a house later that year (seperate bedrooms, i'm kinda old-fashioned).
Perfect winter wedding. Happy, cept for her depression from many issues and the GI disease.

Last fall, she's stressing majorly working on her phd while I work. She finds a local married man(seperated) who ran a game-store and finds that he suffers clinical depression. So they exchange numbers, books, advice. And she brought me in to all this and we also played a little D&D board games.

Regular gettogethers, Me, her and him. depression discussion, soul-bearing, cry-fests all around.
She was spending more time with him to help and be helped for depression. And it did work all aroud. Heidi still felt the work pressure but was finding the courage to confront her boss about the stress and her health as a result and allow her a semester off. The OM was reconciling with his wife, working on their hangups. He even was attending our church. First time since his issues began. We were two couples sharing happiness during the holidays.
My wife took the semester off, and she sponsored him on a new bible study. I didn't attend as I'm comfortable with my faith and she needed this for herself. She started therapy (I asked her to last fall) for her depression and self injury issues.

The Sex day was a couple days before the bible study group's weekend retreat.

When she got back sunday nite, she felt she was cured of the depression and SI issues. She had an epiphany that god couldn't forgive her until she could forgive herself first.

Thursday she told me about the affair.
That she never loved me as much as I loved her.
That they discussed marriage.
That she knows that she's selfish but would rather risk everything on a chance of being happier. And is willing
to destroy all we have together to chance it.

Then she tells me that I'm too big and long and that sex had always hurt. She never confided that before.
I know it hurt a little, but not often, or always.
More and more in the last 8 months, she's pulled away from my touch and caress. Then tels me that I don't touch her enough!
She says that she's grown so accustomed to the touches and loving words that I freely give, that they've lost meaning for her.

She still says she loves me, just not as much as him.
She still considers me one of her very best friends.
But she says that since she's figured out the forgiveness thing, that she's grown to where she doesent feel that she needs my safety, my love.

She Stayed with me those two nights after she told me.
The friday we drove north to see her new gastrointerologist. she didn't get along with the local one.

On saturday, the OM told his wife when she called him to set up a 4-day "date" for them to get him away from my WW.
Later she wrote a note that her 20yr+ marriage is probably over, and not waste my anger on him but work on getting my wife back. I agree.

I couldn't stop asking the questions, WW got mad 'cause she couldnt answer so fast and needed time to think on them. I offered to type them out, and she agreed.
She then said she needed time alone and went to a hotel.
She wouldn't promise she would not see him. But that she would pick me up for church the next morning.

OM's wife called me when my WW arrived and asked me to ask my WW if she spent the night with him. She did.

I did get her to agree to go with me to marriage counseling. That went as bad as possible.
She has her mind set that she's just there to aid my "healing", to make me feel better about all of this. End of session, counselor says both have to be willing.

I'm in counseling now, working on me. I can only work on me. To get me stable and the accepting that only I can change me.

More to follow...
Questions, queries, comments? Please.

<small>[ April 01, 2004, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: BigNiceGuy ]</small>

Welcome to marriagebuilders. Sorry you had to end up here, but it is a good place to be.

Start in Plan A - you can read all about it here. Usually when women cheat it is because their emotional needs are not being met. So try to figure out what they are. There is an EN questionnaire here.

Also try not to take personally what she is saying to you - they all rewrite the marriage. And after you read here awhile, you will see they all say the same things, like some kind of script.

Many have worked the program here and ended up with a much better marriage than before. So have some hope that it will work for you.

BigNiceGuy

My D-Day was 3/12. We have our first counseling session tonight, but I fear my outcome will be like yours. I don't know if she's REALLY interested in trying to make this work. I decided this morning, I was going to work on all the things that caused this riff in the first place. I figure I'll be a better person because of it, whether I'm with her in the end or not.

If you're interested, my thread is "Cyber Affair".

BigGuy:

It sounds as if you and your wife are religious. My pastor has done wonders for my marriage since we contacted him last Friday. We've met twice as a couple and once my WH met with him alone. We will continue meeting together and seperatley a few times a week for a month. Then we will review the situation.... Our MC experience was interesting but the counselor wanted us to follow our feelings rather than follow our values. That's how the A started in the first place!

My WH agreed to contacting our pastor because if we weren't going to confide in our families, I needed solid support from someone we both respect and trust.

My DDay was 2/13. H broke it off immediately, although the clean break involved 1 4 hour goodbye, 1 two minute conversation re a dying relative, and 1 more final goodbye (with NC guidelines) for two hours on 3/11. BLAH.

Plan A sucks, but it works. Back off on relationship conversations and be good to her. For those who have been so self centered and in an A, it's difficult to comprehend selfless love during a time of pain. It knocks their socks off.

This is a great board.

Get Harley's book Surviving An Affair.
He gives a history of a couple almost identical to your situation.
Get this TODAY, it will help you TREMENDOUSLY.
Be patient, calm and strong, your emotions will run havoc with you right now.
Read, read, education yourself and pray.

We're here whenever you need to vent, need advice, or just want to fall apart.

Today was much better after the fiasco at the marriage counselor.
Situation as it now stands.
Now 8 days from Discovery day.
My WW thinks she loves the OM more than me.
I can see why she might. She's been working with him on her depression and self injury since last september. She's on sabbatical from work since the beginning of the christmas break. And she never would confide her issues with me in fear of driving me off because she didn't think I "signed up for that". I took our vows very seriously, and spoke and believed every solemn, sacred word.

She is now crashing at a trusted mutual friends place to have a safe haven to write and think. She's been staying there since second night she left our home. The first spent in a hotel with the OM, The mutual friend is neutral, safe(gay) and has told both of us that he isn't taking sides. The OM won't visit her there, I think. She only uses the place to crash overnite, so is "chaperoned" there. For now.
WW spends most of days lately in a cafe in town.
Also a current hangout of the OM and his wife.
All three seem to be on speaking terms.
I went down there today and gave the OM a shirt he left at our house around the christmas break when both of us couples were there. I mentioned it to my WW way back then, she told me she thought it was one of mine.

We all sat together, the OM's wife left for a doctor's appointment. And my WW and I talked a little.
I left for my therapist session and came back and my WW was there alone. We sat and talked, smiles back and forth, playing cards. I asked if she wanted me with her when she looked for apartments. She agreed. I stayed away from questioning her and emphasized support and love for her. She's not mad at me for any of this and says it's all a result of her selfishness to seek a greater happiness in this OM's arms. We talked about after her self-forgiveness relavation, she is no longer so self consious about her body, body image, and self-injury scars. This part I can see in her eyes and how she carries herself. We both didn't talk about anything that has or is happening between my WW and the OM.
We joked a little about sex. I joked that my size isn't all that big, compared to porn stars.

We made plans to play raquetball with friends later. My WW beat me fair and square 15-9.
Our agreement was that I would never "let" her win at games. I've kept to that promise.
My WW still says she loves me and wants to help me through all this. WW also considers me to still be one of her best freinds ever and wants to continue that relationship. I have hope there as that's part of why we got together in the first place.

My WW wants to go look for a cheap apartment for herself, for her own personal space. I'm worried that she'll have the OM over or that will free her to spend nites at the OM's place.
She wouldn't consider staying at home in a seperate room, I asked. She plans on still helping out on the house payments once she's back at work. And she wants to cook together because many of the cheap apartments dont have those facilities. These apartments also don't have long-term leases, just pay monthly.
We often now greet each other with genuine concern and hugs and a kiss, often mouth-to-mouth. I respond in kind.

She will be in the cafe tomorrow morning. She doesn't want me there so she can think and write.
I don't know if the OM is there then. He's self-employed with very flexible hours. I've taken this whole week off work and will continue to do so as long as its necessary. I have over a month of sick leave and even more vacation time I can take.

I'm going to try to find SAA locally, but what should I be doing right now?
I'm seeing a therapist, my doctor's got me on meds for the panic and anxiety I'm trying to spend as much quiet and quality time with her.
Trouble is that is usually at the cafe where the OM is a regular during the day. My doctor says that it's ok to drive now that I know the effects of the meds. It was nice having my WW drive me around to appointments. But I was starting to feel like she was not pleased to do so.
I don't drink, don't smoke, so no issues there.

So until I can get a copy of the book, WHAT DO I DO?!?!?
Am I on the right/wrong path?
I'm prepared to wait as long as it takes until
he dissapoints her or she is ready to leave him. God knows I have patience. I was a 35 year old virgin before I found my ideal mate and partner and married her. I don't resent the fact that I nurtured and protected her with all her issues over a 5 year relationship including over 2 years of marriage. As wearing as it could be, it was and STILL continues to be worth every minute I spend with her.
Hope springs eternal, and she still wears my ring.

<small>[ April 01, 2004, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: BigNiceGuy ]</small>

Hi Big Guy,

Welcome to this forum. You can read most of what you need to know, right on the home site and on this forum about Dr. H's strategies for ending affairs....so don't stress out about not having the books....we can help. Basically, the strategies are called Plan A and Plan B.

Plan A has four parts that should be done simultaneously. First....stop ALL lovebusters. Fill whatever needs she will allow you to fill and that you feel comfortable filling. Expose the affair to anyone who is capable of influencing your wife to return home. Since the MM wife already knows, what about your wife's parents, or the pastor? Confront your wife about how the affair makes you feel.

Plan A is all about the wayward spouse and making the marriage an attractive alternative to the affair. Plan B is all about you and protecting the love you have for your spouse. In Plan B you have no contact at all with your spouse. You allow her lover to try (and fail) to meet all of her needs. Right now....she can have her cake and eat it too. He fills some needs and you do too. In plan B....she has the opportunity to see what he is lacking because YOU aren't there to fill those needs that traditionally you have.

I would caution you about allowing this whole cozy situation in the cafe to become to comfortable for everyone. Right now, your wife has not had to face any of the consequences of her actions...and that isn't a good thing BNG. Why change if everyone is going to make this so easy for her you know? Do not pursue her...let her seek you out. Do not plead, cry or beg her to come home.

Finally, it's very very important to have a good marriage coach to help you navigate through these rough waters. I really like the things I hear about Jennifer Chalmers...Harley's daughter (number on the main site). And my other recommendation is Penny Tupy who was trained by Willard Harley at www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com Don't believe for a second...that ONE partner can't save a marriage even when the other is not interested in saving it. Sure...ultimately the other spouse must get on board...but there is PLENTY you can do without her participation and much of it is counter-intuitive so it's important that you have an objective guide. Please consider calling one of those ladies.

Good luck and prayers to you.

Hi BNG- I wasn't able to get SAA locally, so ordered it from this site.It only took 3 days- and I live in Canada. Go to "Bookstore" to order. It sure helped me.

The list of people that currently know about this mess are
-Me, WW, OM, OM's wife.
-Our pastor.
-My therapist.
-The receptionist at my therapist's.
-My doctor. (prescribed the anti-anxiety meds)
-The pharmacy intern who listened to my story as she prepped my meds.
-WW's therapist. (she said she has told him)
-Marriage counselor. (won't work with us if WW isn't willing)
-Safe freind of both of us. Been letting us both talk to him. (she's currently crashing at his place, I've been calling there to wish her goodnight like I always have during our entire marriage)
-Two of my friends and colleagues at the university. One female, one male. The female prof probably has discussed this with her husband. My male professor friend especially has been very good.
-Several others know that something is wrong, and some colleagues and friends know that I am dealing with a major personal crisis.

I don't know who my WW has told. I'm going to ask her if she's confided to an uninvolved female friend of hers. And if not, to please consider doing so.

The rest of our family and friends are in the dark.
WW doesn't want to let the family find out at least until after her brothers upcoming wedding in May.

Our pastor, Gail, is an interim/substitute pastor, kinda filling in between guest pastors since our regular pastor was offered a position with more responsibility out of state. This added to WW's depression last fall and winter. Pastor Dan was the one who married us. I've asked WW if it would be OK with her if I contacted him. She didn't know but knew he's going to find out eventually.
I talked Gail about at least contacting Dan. He may have contractural obligations preventing him getting involved with his old congregation. But we also considered him a friend having great wisdom.

I called WW this morning, and she was down at the cafe talking to the wife of the OM. I was welcome to meet WW down there. But she was leaving soon to go talk to the OM. I told her I still hadn't showered, I will, after writing this. WW asked if we were still on to look at apartments for her together later. She'll call when she's done talking or whatever with the OM.
I called OM's wife to see how those two are doing. I know they have been doing a lot of talking. They've been through 20+ years of marriage and were on their second seperation of two years when this mess happened. OM's wife said that they are taking this all one day at a time. I asked if that meant she still had hope for them. She said it did.

I did spend most of the afternoon with WW to help her look at apartments and to just spend time with my best friend.
I dressed in fresh casuals, showered, shaved, made myself presentable.
Her smile, laugh, freckles, movements, scent and all still give me chills. Disturbing that she was wearing one of OM's shirts over her t-shirt like she used to wear mine. But it was a moot point. But she did notice the effect on me.
We had many good conversations and I made it clear that I would back-off if any conversation became unconfortable. A couple did, and I did. We can talk comfortably about sex and size and what other people do and much else until it strays towards our issues. I stay away from the topic of physicality between WW and OM.

She did admit that the biggest reasons that she's getting her own place was that she needed that safe haven to think and write and work on her PHD that neither I or the OM had a key to. She seems genuine that she wants me to continue as her best friend.

We talked about lost trust and communication and we agreed that as best friends those things must be dealt with first. I reassured her that as her best friend, that she could ask me any question or confide in me. Even getting together to just gossip about others.
The OM is talking a lot with his wife as she helps him deliver newspapers.

WW and I actually had fun today, just being friends, playing cards and idly chatting, which we have lacked for a long while. We for the most part just pal-ed around, and for many moments were both able to forget this mess and just enjoy each others company. I'm growing to love her even more. She has a confidence that she gained in her bible study retreat. She is coming to terms with her body, her physical and mental scars. That was obvious yesterday at raquetball.
I told her that I would point out if I see her starting to backslide into self-loathing, depreciation, and doubt, and she told me she valued that from her friend.

After looking at apartments all afternoon, two few available, most too small, smelly, expensive, or inadequate. She wants her own place now, as she feels she is imposing on our friend that she's staying at. (he gave her his room and he's sleeping on the couch).

After that I called Gail, our interim pastor, today to set up a face-to-face meet to update her on the weeks events. And I've asked her to pass all this on to pastor Dan if he's willing to lend an ear and support.

I will be spending time with my male professor friend face to face on sunday.

WW is looking at a couple other apts tomorrow, I offered to tag along. She's thinking of it.

Just a thought, When she gets her own place, with her own keys, should I ask for the return of the favor? Or should I let her retain the keys to our home? Make her get storage for her stuff or just let it keep reminding me of what we've lost?

I pray to god for guidance in all this.

And now I'm off to have soup for dinner and turn in early (ier than in the last week)

Sorry this is so long, but there's really no support group I can go to locally with this.
The OM runs both the depression support groups in town.
And I'd be saying all this to my very best friend in the world if she wasnt my WW.

Is this section the right place for all this? or is there a better place on this site for this?

<small>[ April 01, 2004, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: BigNiceGuy ]</small>

Just had another rememberance of discussions with WW today and yesterday. About my physical attractiveness. WW says that I do have a reeeally(her emphais) nice [censored] and really likes the shape of my legs and how well they all go together.
On D-Day she said she stopped thinking about me sexually back when she fell in "love" with the OM.
Maybe she's thinking of me that way again. I'm managing to express more self-confidence and pride in me (I think) and I think it's showing. Maybe I should throw in a few subtle squats or bends (ooops, clumbsy me, let me pick that up
;-)

On the whole, feeling a lot better about the past two days.

She still wears my ring.

More later.

<small>[ April 01, 2004, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: BigNiceGuy ]</small>

When I got home from the other cafe where I was reading the marriage builders site online and posted my last 3/19 post. I decided to fire up the computer at home and continue reading the site. The WHOLE site except for the forums. I already ordered SAA while I was at that coffeehouse.
Praying all the while to see and understand what I needed and she needed.
And as I was close to finishing the site....
brainstorming on solutions to our sex problems, so many ideas, I realized that even if sex turned out to be truly impossible without pain, WE could communicate to work to find some alternatives that would sate both our needs.
Then was making notes of things that would give us time together in mutually enjoyable activities.
Buy the football season passes (she's the bigger fan, but I'm close behind)
Budget the SHARED luxuries first.
Pay for some of the costs of the repairs necessasary to her parent's boat so us two can cruise alone together.
Take some of my accrued vacation time to help her dad do the maintenance.
Read to/Be read to while we're driving in the car instead of retreating into crosswords, novels, or easy sleep.
Make sure that the time we spend together is in great-big-chunks. Not 15-30 minutes here and there.

Then....GOD^80th
major revalation. Like that scene in the movie "Real genius" where the one character gets !!IT!!

I, was dancing in joy, praising god with joyous shouts for what had been revealed to me. I scared the cat as my dancing is not a pretty sight.

And I realized, at that moment, I was happy. as if my WW had never had the A. Because of the carefree moments together in the past two days, where we just talked, smiled, watched, and played games with each other.

and that LOVE is ALL the things we share TOGETHER!! Willingly, and enthusastically!
All things
GOD, Sex, family, boating, raquetball, card games, teaching, learning, making, building, everything. Anything that we actively, lovingly share TOGETHER.

Then remembering the...wonderful way she idly ran her fingers through my hair on the back of my head all the while she talked on the phone with a rental agent while I sat and waited. And she didn't stop once she realized what she was doing. Didn't stop until her call was done and she needed to say something to me. She hasn't given me that kind of gentle caress and idle attention in months before the A. That kind of touch is one of my major needs.[pause]
OH MY GOODDD..... I just experienced a dry, erectionless, toe-curling orgasm with just the rememberance of that touch! I didn't know guys could even do that!!!
Still breathing hard..

And then I wrote the things I want to say to her, the moment she steps in her cafe this morning. She is waiting for another round of questions like the first. She's dreading them but promised to try to answer them if she's comfortable enough with them.
I will write them and give them to her. Dont know which order She reads them will be best, heres the order I wrote them in my journal

-----------------------------------------
The fact that you had an affair
In NO way reduces my Love for you
And the fact that you trusted and cared enough to
to tell me, makes me love you even more
---------------------------------------

And a modification of the promise
------------------------------------

I promise
to care for you
to protect you
to be honest with you
and to spend my time with you

I will ask no questions
Except for those to know your needs, wants and desires
I will expect no answers
but for the ones you feel the need to give to be completely honest with your bestest friend
------------------------------------

Now I realize, I'm done with my greif over this affair. I'll always regret that it had to come to this much pain for me. But this joy will more than make up for it.

I hope I'm right to give her those two items above.
Let me know....Soon

<small>[ April 01, 2004, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: BigNiceGuy ]</small>

Big Guy,

You need some guidance. I hope you will follow the link I gave you because Penny will help you whether your wife is involved or not. Much of what needs to be done to end affairs and save marriages is counter-intuitive and you are rapidly approaching doormatitis. You do NOT help your wife leave you...like helping her find and apartment and providing her with the finances to do it?????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Unless all you want is friendship...then stop being just her "friend". Not lovebusting doesn't mean that you should be a buddy....unless you're satisfied with only that. Afterall, you're making it so dang easy to leave you, and she is facing ZERO consequences by everyone in this scenario for her actions....why should she change....sounds really cushy to me. Part of Plan A is CONFRONTATION. That doesn't mean fighting...not at all. What is does mean is that your wife is confronted with the consequences of her actions....like how she has hurt you, the selfishness of her actions, what life without you might be like, and the immorality and destructiveness her affair. Confrontation isn't about anger or destructiveness....it's about honesty and openess. It's about cause and effect.

Please get some help from a good coach before you help your wife leave you completely....that's the path you are on. I would venture to say that your "niceness" is one of the things she is running away from. Sounds ridiculous I know...but go on the main site and look up the "GIVER"...that is you. My giver almost destroyed my marriage....not my taker like most people. Until you can stand up for yourself and begin negotiatiating what you need...you will continue to be disrespected and taken for granted by your wife. Forgiveness is a virtue...and I'm glad you have found that. Stop being her puppy....she doesn't respect you for it.

I hate the fact that the really nice guys get hurt so much.... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

So the two notes are a bad idea then?
Give them to her later, never?
I just ordered the book last night so I guess I missing what plan A is. I thought it was to shock her with kindness in giving her the emotionial support she needs.

I feel we've been building trust and communication over the past few days, spending time with her.
All three of these things are what I have lost and it feels like I'm getting some of what I want back.
It seems like a huge betrayal of our friendship if i did the eqivalant of standing in public and yell "Why in gods name did you **** him?"
Is it eye-for-eye now?

Kay, sorry.
I'm re-reading those pages. I still believe that my moment of inspirition was correct, but this day is not the right day. The engineer in me wants to fix this NOW. But I am a realist enough to know that I need guidance. Given the success rate, I have to go with that guidance. I ordered Surviving an Affair last night after frantic searching for it locally. And I'll stress about that till, and after it gets here.

She is still expecting questions from me. So I can have her do the Emotional Needs questionnaire. And I'll fill out mine. So do I fill out mine based on the time before she told me about the affair, or on right now?

WW respects writers (the OM is one).
should I give her the following from penny's site?

"Marriage is not supposed to make you happy. It’s supposed to make you married, and once you are safely and totally married then you have a structure of security and support from which you are free to make yourself happy, rather than wasting your adulthood looking for structure". ….. Frank Pittmam

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement, and I would add that within the framework of security and commitment it is the obligation of each partner to figure out, and then do, whatever it takes to make the marriage a happy and fulfilling place for both spouses. ~ Penny"

Yours in confusion and fustration.

<small>[ April 01, 2004, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: BigNiceGuy ]</small>

Big Guy,

so the two notes are a bad idea then?
later, never?

This really isn't about the notes chere...it's about how you are enabling the affair.

I just ordered the book last night so I guess I missing what plan A is. I thought it was to shock her with kindness in giving her the emotionial

Okay...here are Penny's guidlines for Plan A...and that may help you a bit...I'm also going to find some other good posts to link for you that do a great job of explaining things okay?

Penny's guidelines:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plan A is not (repeat NOT) about making the WS happy, or feeling good.

Plan A is NOT, contrary to popular (and very incorrect opinion), about "making yourself a better person," or "working on yourself."

Plan A is ALL ABOUT the straying spouse. In Willard Harely's ever brilliant words, Plan A is a stategy to end the affair and to entice the straying spouse to reconsider the marriage.

So, it has several elements that should be done at the same time.

First is to eliminate LBers and to meet needs as best you can... recognizing that the unfaithful mate may not allow the betrayed partner to meet needs.

Second is to CONFRONT the unfaithful partner with what you know. Doing so (of course) in a way that is respectful and about you... how you feel, how you are affected by the affair.

Third is to expose the affair to the scrutiny of the world. The lover's spouse or s/o, coworkers, family, friends, church family, children, etc.

ALL OF THAT is Plan A. And it should be done as much as possible simultaneously. (If you don't believe me call the radio show Mondays and Thursdays at 1pm Central Time and ask Dr. Harley for yourself.)

Plan A must have a deadline. It's called Plan "A" because there is a second step... aptly named Plan "B." Willard Harley suggests a max of 6 months for men and 3 months for women before going to the next step. If Plan A hasn't worked in that time, it's not going to.

(I challenge you to find anyone who has done Plan A longer than that and been successful. I define successful as the A ending, n/c promised and verified, and the couple working a good recovery plan which includes meeting needs, eliminating LBers, getting in 15 hours a week of UAT, and most importantly following POJA.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is Zorwebs: Plan A and Love Busters

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is some wisdom that I've gathered from different posters and added my thoughts to. Was hoping that might be helpful to those of you struggling with Plan A and love busting.
------------------------------------

Have you read BrambleRose’s post on Plan A… it’s a must read. How to be a doormat in Plan A. It may surprise many BS as to what this means… Being a doormat in Plan A does not mean that the BS has no boundaries and allows the WS to walk all over them.

---------------------------------------------------------
PLAN A

The major mistakes I see in Plan A are:

1) The BS doing nothing to interfere or attempt to break up the affair in acceptable ways.

2) Plan A’ing for too long, to the point that it becomes a lifestyle with great payoff for the WS and little for the BS.

3) Tip toeing around the WS by not telling them how the affair is hurting the BS. Basically acting as though the BS is afraid to upset the WS in any matter. This can lead to great emotional abuse of the BS.

4) The BS does not do Plan A for the WS or for themselves. It is done to break up the affair and begin marital recovery.

5) Totally misunderstanding what is and what is not a love buster and thereby never setting proper boundaries.

While becoming a better, more patient, more loving spouse can be a side affect of plan A, that is not it’s purpose. Plan A is a strategy to separate the spouse from the lover. (Or perhaps to pull a spouse out of deep withdrawal, but that's not your issue right now.) Nothing more, nothing less. Plan A will not save or restore your marriage. It is simply a tool to show your spouse that you recognize the contribution you've made to the deterioration of your M, and that you are willing, able, and determined to change those things.

Plan A is also about meeting needs as much as you feel you can. If you can make love with your H and not go away angry and resentful... go for it!! But if not, then Be pleasant, courteous, thoughtful, respectful. No demands, no disrespect, no losing your temper, no dishonesty, and no doing things that annoy or offend your spouse. (annoying behavior does have a qualifier when there is an A, and we will talk about that too.) Plan A is not about being perfect, being a doormat, or being a perfect doormat!

Plan A can be done in a letter if that is all you can muster. Plan A should have a deadline, as it's not an indefinite lifestyle choice. Most women cannot do Plan A as long as men. Some cannot even do it for a day, the pain of knowing their H is with OW is too great. Most women plan A for about 2-3 weeks, most men for about 6 months. Plan A is not a life style.

When it is said that the BS should do nothing to break up the affair, it’s a bit of a misleading statement. Plan A and Plan B are attempts to break up the affair. Acceptable and unacceptable ways to break up an affair.

It is unacceptable to try breaking up the affair using tactics such as threatening or using violence, stalking either the WS or the OP.

Acceptable ways to put pressure on the affair in Plan A/B:

1) Plan A and then if necessary Plan B.
2) Tell everyone: your parents, his parents, your religious leader, your other loved ones and close friends. Ask for their support in ending the A and saving your marriage.

3) Tell the WS that they are hurting you (the BS) every time there is contact. Do not give the WS the impression that you can get by.

4) Tell the WS that they are offending you grievously, that you are hurt beyond belief and that you are in pain. All of this helps break the shroud of secrecy and protection around the affair. It puts pressure on the affair.

5) Confront the OP. Tell OP that you love your WS and that you want your marriage to survive. Tell OP that he/she is contributing to the destruction of your home and your family. Beyond this do not contact the OP. Do not set up a relationship with them. They are incidental to the problems in your marriage. Given time the affair will almost always end whether or not you and you WS remain together. Affairs are based on fantasy. Tell the OP’s spouse.

6) Tell your children. Yes... tell them. They already know, so give them the gift of honesty.

7) Now, in the interim, there are things you can do. Confront the OW.

8) If your spouse is in the military talk to the Chaplin, their commander, family support and anyone else you can to get support. Their commander can put a lot of pressure on them, change their assignment to interfere with the affair, and so forth. Criminal charges can be filed. And so forth.

This will make the WS angry. The Policy of Joint Agreement does not apply. The marriage has already been breached. Telling is a way of stopping the bleeding so to speak. A way to end the A, to pick of the pieces of the destruction he is wreaking.

Affairs do not survive in the light of day. Doing everything you can to end it is encouraged. Once again, this is against every instinct we have, but it works.

Affairs do not last long when the OP is meeting limited needs and the WS is just having a wonderful time having their cake and eating it too. All the while the BS is.

Plan B is risky. At first it will certainly push the WS into the arms of the lover. But almost all affairs die a natural death. And that is hastened by being exposed to the light of day. Affairs exist and thrive only in secret and in fantasy. Once the harsh realities of life... kids, schedules, finances, laundry (!!) intrude, they lose their appeal.

Soon the arguments set in, withdrawals to the LBnk are made and the A comes to an end.

The time to go to Plan B is when: You are LBing more? Not sleeping well? Poor appetite? Losing your ability to concentrate? These are things that you need to take into account. Plan A is not sustainable indefinitely, and the more your love bank drains, the harder it will be to continue.

The 2 biggest mistakes with Plan B are not going to Plan B in time, and not insisting on the conditions for recovery. NO ONE wants to do Plan B. It goes against every instinct we have. But MB is about going against instincts. Harley says it over and over again on every topic he covers. Doing what our instincts tell us to do only gets us into trouble.

A Plan B letter should be short and to the point. It must include these

1. I love you

2. I married you for life. I want to stay married to you.

3. This thing you are doing is too painful for me to bear; it is destroying the love I have for you.

4. As long as you have contact with this person, I cannot see or speak to you.

5. When this affair ends, I would love to discuss reconciliation and recovery with you.

6. Until then I ask that you not contact me. All issues relating to children/finances/etc should go through____ who is acting as intermediary.

There is so much emphasis on ending the A and plan A, that people lose sight of the fact that ending the A is just one of two equally important parts in rebuilding the M. The second, and probably toughest part, is recovery. If the BS has very little love left for the WS, the recovery part may already be doomed because the BS will not put the sufficient effort to work his/her part and may use the WS's equally lukewarm response as enough proof to jettison the M and head straight to divorce. This is why plan B is an important component to the goal of rebuilding the M.

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COMMON MISCONCEPTION ABOUT LOVE BUSTERS

Many BS believe that insisting on no contact would be viewed as a love buster by their WS. Technically, it's not. A lot of posters talk about a LBer as anything that the WS finds unpleasant. That's not the case. If it were, then honesty, especially radical honesty, would become impossible.

A Love Buster falls into one of these categories:

1. Demands. Insisting that your spouse do something for you regardless of how it would make him or her feel to do it. Refusing to accept "No," to your request, graciously. Either overtly or insinuating some threat if your wish is not complied with.

There's a whole layer of subtleties around Demands. And it is defined by the one being asked to do whatever. I tend to be VERY sensitive to demands. My H saying something like, we need to change the oil this weekend, or I need you to come and look at (whatever his current project might be) will almost always fall into the demand category for me.

Also, we cannot insist that our spouse NOT do something. Although technically this is not a Demand but a notification that they are in violation of POJA, unless you are both on the same page about that policy, it will be a love buster.

The way to avoid making demands is to state what it is you would like, and then to ASK, "How would you feel about doing______?" This statement forces you to take your spouse's feelings into account, and to accept,"No," courteously.

2. Disrespect. This is anything that imposes your value judgment on your spouse. It can be as small as rolling your eyes at something he/she says, or as large as name calling, put-downs. One that is common for BS's is to question the WS's morals, standards, ethics, care of children.

While we may all agree with those assessments, to state them to your spouse is disrespectful. You can THINK whatever you want, but you need to monitor what comes out of your mouth.

3. Angry Outburst. Losing ones' temper and having a screeching tantrum is easy to recognize.

But an AO can be quiet and just as cutting. It's an action that is punishing in some way. (This does not include removing oneself from abuse or pain or neglect.... unless you hurl a rolling pin at his head on your way out the door.)

Threats are included in this category. So if you are planning to go to Plan B, then you need to make the plan and do it. Threatening would be an AO.

4. Annoying Habits. Things like slurping coffee, snoring, leaving your shoes all over the house, and collecting junk. All these are annoying habits. Things you do that make your spouse insane with irritation.

5. Independent Behavior. Monday night football, affairs, shopping with the girls, hunting, your religious practices. Lifestyle choices that are planned and executed without the enthusiastic agreement of both parties. Business travel falls into this category.

6. Dishonesty. Leaving your spouse in the dark on any of these subjects: 1. Past history 2. Present activities 3. Daily plans and schedule 4. Future plans, hopes, dreams, 5. Feelings and reactions... particularly to your spouse's behavior 6. Anything else you know to be true about yourself

Now, no contact in order to protect yourself from further pain does not fall into one of those categories. Will the WS be unhappy with that? Duh!!! Of course he/she will. But his/her unhappiness will be the direct consequence of his/her betrayal of you and his/her vows.

You are not hurting the WS. He/she has chosen to hurt themself by hurting you. No one, and least of all Harley, believes that you should be in pain in order to save your marriage. If you ever get a chance to hear him, he speaks about this all the time. That his concern is with YOU, the BS. He does not want you to suffer any more than you already are.

If your spouse is unhappy with n/c, then it's up to him/her to do the things HE/SHE needs to do in order to have you in his life.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel we've been building trust and communication over the past few days, spending time with her.

Spend time with her...but not I'd avoid playing games in the dysfunctional cafe. Is that really the relationship you want to develop?


All three of these things are what I have lost and it feels like I'm getting some of what I want back.
It seems like a huge betrayal of our friendship if i did the eqivalant of standing in public and yell "Why in gods name did you **** him?"
Is it eye-for-eye now?

aaaaaaaaaaaah...excuse me? Who has said you should do that????? Not me that's for sure.


Kay, sorry.
I'm re-reading those pages. I still believe that my moment of inspirition was correct, but this day is not the right day. The engineer in me wants to fix this NOW. But I am a realist enough to know that I need a manual. Given the success rate, I have to go with that manual. I ordered Surviving an Affair last night after frantic searching for it locally. And I'll stress about what till, and after it gets here

Make that call to Penny...and get some help from a good navigator on your journey okay?



She is still expecting questions from me. So I can have her do the Emotional Needs questionnaire. And I'll fill out mine. So do I fill out mine based on the time before she told me about the affair, or on right now?

I think it's too early for the ENQ....she is still pretty fogged ya know?



WW respects writers (the MOM is one).
should I give her the following from penny's site

"“Marriage is not supposed to make you happy. It’s supposed to make you married, and once you are safely and totally married then you have a structure of security and support from which you are free to make yourself happy, rather than wasting your adulthood looking for structure”. ….. Frank Pittmam

Nope...teaching is considered an LB by most WS's. She is too fogged to get this right now. But she will. Remain patient and "confronting" doesn't mean love busting. Read more about that on the site and it will help.

Sending you prayers.

And here is Bramblerose's: "How to be a doormat in Plan A"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Seems to be some confusion on more than a couple of threads about doormathood and Plan A.

Steve Harley says that if you feel like a doormat in Plan A, then you are doing a good job.

Why do you feel like a doormat in a GOOD Plan A?

Because we all have a Giver and a Taker. The Giver and Taker in balance and in a healthy relationship make sure that your needs are met, and that your partner's needs are met. A balanced Giver and Taker in combination with a POJA make for a marriage that protects and fulfills needs in a way that is mutually satisfying to BOTH. There is no doormathood in a POJA, because there is mutual respect and protection. Boundaries aren't needed between the couple - the boundaries enclose the couple as a unit - making them a compatible, intimate team.

But in Plan A, our Giver has to step up to the plate and we have to put the Taker on hold.

This means having to smile, act cheerful, perform acts of love (fill ENs), and root out lovebusters - when our Taker is raging inside, wanting to scream, cry, hurt back, beg, appease - whatever it takes to get our needs met, our world fixed and to get everything rebalanced.

This is why Dr. Harley says we can't follow our instincts - our instincts get us into trouble. Our Taker wants us to withdraw, to defend, to attack, to demand, to force the situation back into control.

We have to ignore our Taker in Plan A. It means having emotions, but choosing actions that are not emotionally based, but rather rationally based.

This means that we will FEEL like a doormat. That FEELING is because of a restrained Taker. This is why Plan A is only a limited timeline and Plan B is so important...because Plan A, done well, WILL drain a lovebank - since there is no Taker standing by to plug the leaks.

It seems though, that alot of people think that Plan A means suffering through extreme abuse. It does not mean lying down and allowing the WS to actively harm the BS or the BS children. It does not mean tiptoeing around the WS trying to appease or afraid to upset the WS by taking care of basic needs (finances, health - both emotional and physical). Boundaries HAVE to go into place, because there is NO safety - you have separate, conflicting agendas as long as there is an OP. Those boundaries shouldn't come down until there is proof of safety.

I discovered along the way, during my husband's affair, that the fastest way to get other people to respect me, including my husband, was to respect MYSELF.

You see, I interpreted the biblical "Love others as you love yourself" to mean: "Love others MORE than yourself - in fact, Love Others, NOT yourself because loving yourself is SELFISH and Others won't like you and if Others don't like you then you are worthless."

I put my self worth and my self respect in the hands of "others". And I was truely a DOORMAT in the ugliest sense of the word. That's a huge fact in what ultimately destroyed our marriage.

When I learned to tune out the "Others" including my husband, and started putting in boundaries to take care of myself, I was able to start making real choices about my behavior. I was able to really plan A. Funny - I didnt' really learn how to do a fantastic Plan A until I was headed into divorce court. If that's not an example of boundaries (needed to ensure financial safety of myself and the kids) while in Plan A, I don't know what is! But it started with mental boundaries. I learned to choose my actions rather than react to my emotions. That "Detachment with Love" gave me the ability to smile, act cheerful, nonchalant, and to get on with my life while my husband was self-destructing. I learned how to be happy, even though there was crisis galore in my life. As I learned how to do this, it became easier to do outward things - like insist on a visitation schedule, without the presence of OW, and to be ready to enforce it legally.

What I did was turn my Taker into a non-lovebusting protector. I had to learn to turn that Taker away from self-demands and judgements on my husband and to intentionally turn that taker in other directions.

I'd love to ask Steve about this some time...but I think that learning to point that Taker elsewhere, keeps it busy and keeps the lovebank from exhausting itself as quickly.

Anyway, I hope this helps, or maybe some other vetrans can hop in here with anything I've missed.

Plan A makes you FEEL like a Doormat. It doesn't mean you act like one!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Well, you're not gonna belive the shock I just got!
Called WW earlier about not feeling comfortable going out with her today on her apartment hunt. I got a little upset but managed OK.
After cooling down I called her to see if she knew where the stapler was for the questions I was gonna give her.

Then WW drops the BIG ONE!
If this shock doesn't turn my hair white, I don't know what will
WW, OM and his wife were all talking together, and apparently the OM put forth the Idea of "combining households", with Every-Thing that implies.
WW said she wants to have children within 5 years and want's to raise them with OM's wifes influence. Dunno if OM's wife is fertile.

My libido is saying "SURE" since I've gotten none but miss five-fingers in the last month and a half.

LORD IN HEAVEN, the rest of me is in shock. I'm checking the calendar to see if it's a month of april fools day.
What's my role supposed to be?
Breadwinner + mr-fixit + prize breeding stallion?
Do they want to start a school, the OM teaching literature, OM's wife teaching math, WW teaching science, and me running the wood and metal shop?
Then we'd all just populate it ourselves?

I've read about this kind of thing in sci-fi and communes. But I never have heard of many healthy relationships resulting from the communes.

<small>[ April 01, 2004, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: BigNiceGuy ]</small>

oh, somebody pleas reply soon
I'm freaking out.

okey dokey

Well....ya see what happens when everybody just thinks this whole arrangement is a-okay? If it weren't a disrepectful judgement, I'd suggest this answer:

ARE YOU ON CRACK???????????

Unless this is what YOU want....I think you need to tell them you're not buying into this freak show. Believe me....foggy spouses will come up with all kinds of stuff like this to continue their affair and have YOU TOO. It's called CAKE EATING!!! You need to get a good marriage coach and step nicely out of this picture and watch the little fantasy they are creating dissolve. This is messed up man!!!

I wasn't considering it at all, just my [censored] was. It's stupid and doesn't guide my thinking.
I'm just really horny now.
Straight, faithfully monogamous.
This is freaking me out.

WW claims that she suggested this quad as a possible solution that might interest me.
Swapping NEVER appealed to me. And OM's wife just isn't even close to my type.

Just had the stage B transistion.
She left angry. She wanted three pieces of cake.
Me as a best freind and firm shoulder, OM as her lover, and OM's wife to help her raise her kids.
and who knows what other role I'm supposed to fill.
She refuses to cut both of them out of her life. She figured out over the past two days she wants OM's wife in her life to help raise her kids.
WW just wanted me to go down to the cafe and talk all this over with the OM and his wife.

I Didn't get the gunsafe keys from her.
I wish I had gotten the house keys.
She left very angry.
Bad.
I still love her but I think this OM has some sort of mental or chemical hold on both of these women.

WW seemed to think that that I believed that WW, OM and his wife were conspiring together on this.
WW claimed that this "solution" came to her in an answer to a prayer.
I asked if it was an really an answer or her wish.
She answered "I don't know"
I replied "Then it didn't come from god, did it"
[silence]
Conversation went downhill from there.

The nightmare is starting back up.

What's next?
close the joint account and change the house keys?
restraining order?

<small>[ April 01, 2004, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: BigNiceGuy ]</small>

What's next? Well I'm hoping you'll make that call to Penny and get some guidance. I'm thinking you need to start getting all your ducks in a row to move to Plan B if you need to...because I agree with you....this man seems to have some bizarre powers of persuasion...and this is downright scary. So what does your wife's parents think of all this? Her brothers or sisters? If they don't know....now might be a good time to enlist their help to save your marriage. You can honestly tell them that you're really frightened about what influence this couple is having on her.