Hi all, this is my second post. A little background on me. I have been married for 9 1/2 years and have 3 beautiful daughters (8, 8 & 2) About 6 months about my W had an EA with a friend of mine. She never admitted it and said it was all just innocent flirting. Well, I used a software to spy on her email (I know this is morally and legally wrong, but felt I needed to know) and ended up calling her out on what was going on. She, like I said above, said it was innocent flirting and nothing more. I, wanting to believe her, ended up buying it and we went to MC. Things seemed to be better and a couple of weeks ago I almost uninstalled the software because I thought things were going well and I had nothing to worry about. Well, last Thurs. I see an email from my W to the OM and she writes that she heard a song on the radio that made her think of him ( Here without you by 3 Doors Down read the lyrics here to see what is so bothersome to me ) so now naturally I think we may be right back to where we were 6 months ago. It's almost like they decided to let things cool off for 6 months before starting their little thing again. I told her 6 months ago I was going to file for divorce since I was sure they had been physical. I don't think she would risk starting that up again just for a little innocent flirting, which makes me think that I am in for a pretty rough emotional ride the next few months till I can find the truth. Hence my post here.

I guess now I am just going to give her enough rope to hang herself with and see what she does. I need to know what it is with her and him.

MIF?

Hey, I think it is a mistake to take the position of waiting. While you don't have enough evidence that e-mail says it all. I checked the song and obviously she thinks she loves your friend. BUT, you don't know if your friend is a willing participant (at least I haven't determined that from your post). If he is innocent he could be an allie, right? If you sit back and don't keep pressure on this situation you are enabling it. How you feel right now is about 100 times better than how you'll feel if it is a PA. And if it hasn't gottne there yet and is headed in that direction wouldn't you want to intercept it? You could consider a PI or GPS system on car along with your spyware or you could confront your friend. I say confront the friend. Look you'll get all the information you need later. Because if it is an intense EA as you suspect and you scare the guy off, you will be able to watch your W's reaction over the coming weeks. If she goes into a deep shell you will know you have or had a big problem. If she takes it in stride you will know maybe it wasn't so bad. But I would risk the breach of trust. You are M she doesn't deserve any privacy nor do you. My W still hides her cell phone bill everytime it comes in the mail. Does that seem acceptable? Of course not. Take this head on.

WOE

Welcome to marriagebuilders. Sorry you are here, but it is a good place to be. I know you are probably miserable right now, but it will get better. So stick with us.

Start in Plan A. You can read all about it here. It is very difficult to do, but necessary. You will have lots of ups and downs. When you have the downs, come here and post.

Thanks for the replies.

walkingoneggs,

I guess I should have given a little more info above. For more background on my situation read the longwinded response below.

Our marriage has been rocky. About 3 years in I thought she was cheating on me and accused her. I realize now that it was a mistake. There were definitly signs there. She started working late, started smoking again (smoked when we met, but quit), started spending a lot of time with her male friends from work rather than come home with me. She was going to the bar quit a bit to hang out with them. She also started drinking a lot, almost daily. I accused her and she looked me in the eyes and denied anything was happening other than she enjoyed their company, because I wasn't there for her emotionally. I truly believe that I was wrong that time in my accusation and have regretted it ever since.

The incident six months ago all started with a wedding we had gone to. There was an incident (a long story) that happened and the OM's W thought she saw my W and her H "doing something" (some fondeling). She got upset and left in the middle of the night. There was much alcohol and if something did happen, both my W and the OM say they have no recollection. I decided to write the night off as drunken stupidity and put it behind me and really didn't think too much of it.

Anyway, after this wedding I noticed his # showing up on caller ID after I would go to work. I still didn't think much of it since I figured he didn't know my schedule so he didn't know when I was working or when I was off. I work midnight shift and my W usually went to bed when I left the house. Out of nowhere she would be absolutly exhausted when I would get home in the morning, after supposedly a good solid 7-8 hours of sleep. Then a few weeks I inadvertantly see an email from the OM to my W saying he set up a secret email account that only he and she will know of. This obviously piqued my interest and I began to suspect something. I then saw another email from him to her that had her email in the reply. Hers said it was 1:53 AM and she was going to go to bed. Then she mentioned that she would call him tomarrow and didn't want him to freak out. He replied that he and his W were leaving the house in the am. See, my W is good friends with his W and they talk on the phone several times a week. I took this as "don't freak out when you see it's me calling 'cause I'll make it look like I'm going to talk to your W". So now it started to make sense to me. She was acting like she was going to bed as I left the house then getting on the computer and emailing him 'till all hours of the night. My W was not getting much sleep and therefor exhausted in the morning when I got home. This was when I purchased the eblaster software and set it up to intercept email.

I started seeing email between them. One of the first emails I intercept was from my W to the OM. It said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have I told you lately how much I love you? A whole bunch!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My heart sank and I couldn't believe what I was reading. A couple of days later I see this one from my W to him </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">good ah......afternoon? Was up until 2:30. Wonder why! My heart was pounding so fast I thought I was going into cardiac arrest! Why do you do that to me? Not that I am complaining or anything! I feel much better today--I guess it is good to relieve tension! Need to go strum up some business, just thought I'd let you know that I was and still am thinkin about ya! I am sure I will get to sneak another one of these in at some point today--especially after 7pm. (working 8 to 4)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I started acting strange. No matter how hard I tried to act "normal" I knew I wasn't and she would pick up on it.

Well he sends her one that sounded a harloquin romance novel (obviously made up flirtation talking about how he was going to rub her body down and stick his tongue in her wetness etc. etc.)
Then she send this </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I am having a heart attack--my heart is pounding so incredibly fast right now! Please tell me that you are deleting these and not saving them for future use! I really really don't want to screw things up for us........ </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He replied that he does get rid of them and no one will ever see them since it is a secret email account. This pushed me over the edge and I acted like I stumbled upon this and confronted her. I told her I was going to file for divorce the next day and we had it out. She of course denied anything was going on other than innocent flirtation. She called him up and I spoke with him on the phone. He said it was innocent, and he realizes it was wrong, he set up the private email account so his W wouldn't see because they were going through a tough time etc. etc. I decided to wait and see things out. The W and I went to MC and I began to believe it was all innocent and I had wrongfully accused her of cheating on me again. Just when I start to feel guilty about the spying and think about uninstalling the software I decided not to and then see the email I mentioned in the first post. There was one from him saying his W will be out of town for the weekend and that maybe my W and he could talk on the phone. The way I see it is there is no reason for them to talk on the phone. Especially after the deal 6 months ago.

I realize that I have a trust issue with her and that is bad, but I do not trust her at all right now.

Anyway, I guess what I am trying to say is that I really think I need to wait. i can't go to the friend either since he is most likely a willing participant. If I confront her she will just figure out I am spying on her email. I never let them on that I knew of all the emails the first time by spying. I made it look like I had seen the two in the inbox (one about setting up a secret account and one about heart racing). I have decided that I need to giver her enough rope to hang herself or save herself. By confronting her and bringing it out in the open will only make her more secretive. I need to know once and for all what is going on between them.

Thanks for reading

MIF?

<small>[ March 20, 2004, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: marriage is forever? ]</small>

I think I would let the OM's wife know about the emails. Then she can watch from her end. Just tell her the same - don't let her know that you are continuing to monitor, otherwise she might blow up and let him know.

well my friend from the emails one could interpret a PA going on while your gone at night. I also work overnights exclusively so I know what you must be going thru. whatever is happening its not GOOD! confront her now and stop this foolishness. I didnt confront mine and the PA happened because i didnt confront even though i had eveidnce that something was going on. I regret to this day and ill regret always that i didnt, that i wasnt strong enough to confront cause i thought "it would never happen" she loves me.

I'm with Cliff, there is already toooooooo much going on. It's eating you up right? It doesn't get better and DOESN'T matter if it is PA or not. It's wrong, it hurts you and she simply doesn't care how much it hurts you because it's that important to her. I am in the same boat. W thinks she now has harmless friendship with ONS partner. I can tell you that my W doesn't understand that harmless friendship may cost us our family. The reason is as she continues to walk all over me and ignore my feelings, my love for her continues to fade. We are counseling with Harley and she is resisting it tremendously. I am at a point that if she doesn't get on board with the program I will move out until she comes around, if ever. Don't wait until you get to this point. It will not die a natural death and since it's your "friend" its a double betrayal and hurts that much more. Tell the OM's W and keep the heat on your W. Dont divulge the spyware though.

WOE

Thanks again for the responses.

Here is the thing, yeah I work midnights but he is 2 hours away and has a family himself so it would be very difficult for them to have a PA. He'd have to sneek off in the middle of the night on his W to make a midnight rondesvous with my W.

For the past 6 months after the initial confrontation there has been no correspondence between them besides a few "joke" emails that get forwarded around the net repeatedly. Last Thus. was the song email (3 Doors Down) and then him saying something about maybe talking via tx. Up until this point nothing between them, unless they have been secretly calling one another. I am going to start checking the cell bills a little closer, now. I hadn't been doing that and no longer have them to review now either.

I am almost positive that if I let the OM's W (knowing her) she would not sit back and the $h!t would definitly hit the fan and we may never find anything out. I would end up being the bad guy for spying and not trusting.

Another thing I can't explain is how she can act so normal. I mean when I was seeing these emails last Sept. I couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, and my heart was pounding out of my chest. Meanwhile she acted normal, as though nothing was going on. I would think if I was having an affair I would not be able to hide it. In college I tried to juggle 3 woman once and was not very good at it at all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> She is acting normal now too. Nothing that would tip me off had I not seen those couple of emails last Thurs.

I don't know. I just don't want to jump the gun and confront her until I get more info I guess.

I do appreciate you opinions and responses,

Thankyou,
MIF?

my WW went an hour and a half away to see her OM, and he is maaried and they met in the middle of the night. be that as it may , I dont think.

sorry brain just kicked in, actually your right the physiacal affair may not ahve happened yet but theree is def. a EA going. the email if read out can only lead me to belive they had PHONE/internet *** .read it carefully "heart pounding" , "relieve tension" "up till 230 am" your the best judge of your wife and know how she writes her words but after reading and rereading her email back too him ........


im sorry your here though, would the internet just go away id be alot happier but sadly i know im wishful thinking..... I dont know can you jump the gun on an EA? maybe others far samrter than I can answer that and have been around far longer.... whatever happens my friend i wish you the best

Cliff,

I know it's a possibility that they could have ventured half way in the middle of the night, but I doubt it. I would like to think my W is more responsible than to drag the kids out or leave them alone. I would imagine that word around town would get around quick if she was hiring a sitter for the middle of the night too.

Now phone sex or internet sex is another thing. I think that it's very possible. Am I wrong for getting pissed off that even that may have happened? I mean if she wants me to talk dirty to her I would do it. We have a pretty tame sex life. Nothing too adventurous for us, although I would be willing to try new things.

I sometimes feel like I don't even know my W anymore.

Oh well, I go back to work tomarrow night. Then will sleep all day Tues. so I will expect some more activity from them Tues. morning while I sleep and it's "safe" for them to converse via the net. This gives my W time to delete the email from her sent folder and trash.

Thanks for the comments all,

MIF?

MIF - you, brother, are living in "la la land."

I understand the denial, the refusal to face the truth. I did that for 6 years. But running from reality to avoid possible pain is no answer.

First course of action, print out the emails and confront your wife with them. Affairs happen, and are "allowed" to continue, in secret. They need to be exposed before anything can be done to recover the marriage.

You can "plan A" or anything else you want to do, but as long as your wife is an Emotional Affair (and probably a Physical Affair also from what you've written) NOTHING you do will register with her and "save the marriage."

Second, inform the wife of the OM and provide her with the proof if she asks for it. Too bad if the two liars and cheats get mad at you for exposing the truth. They don't care if THEIR actions might make you and his wife mad, do they? If the shoe were on the other foot, wouldn't you want to know that your wife was cheating on you?

Neither marriage has any hope of surviving while the affair is kept in secret. All that remains is a ticking nuclear bomb that is waiting to go off some day. Think of it as the equivalent of a "terrorist attack" upon your family and STOP MAKING EXCUSES FOR YOUR WIFE AND THE CREEP OF THE OTHER MAN, who both think it's okay to visit pain and anguish on two families just to satisfy their own selfish desires.

Want more proof? They KNOW it's wrong. Why else would the conniving OM set a separate "secret email account."

I know it hurts, but the sooner you get it out into the "light of day" in both of your families, the sooner you will have a chance to recover your marriage. If you are afraid to act, then realize that as long as their is an ongoing affair, your marriage is ALREADY over and the pain is simply waiting to descend upon you and your children. It WILL happen, it is simply a matter of WHEN.

IF this is the early stages of an affair, think of it like catching cancer early. Treatment, though painful, has a much greater chance of success if caught and treated early, not ignored because of fear of the potential pain that treatment might bring.

Think "long term" here and be the head of your household. Your marriage is under attack and your children are also at stake. Will you sit back and let a liar and a cheat (both your wife and her "friend" at this point in their lives) plan the willful destruction of your family? Will burying your head in the sand protect you from reality? Will you think that "appeasing" the terrorists will keep them from visiting their brand of destruction upon your family or that it might delay the day that destruction actually descends upon you?

It's hard, we've all been there. But you are not being true to YOUR marriage vow to protect your family against ALL enemies.

Now go and do the right thing (As Dr. Laura says all the time)!

Foreverhers, said it a little better than me. That's reality man. DO SOMETHING. I speak from experience. The more sh$t I'm willing to take the more my W is willing to dish out. They have no idea what they're doing and somebody back on earth needs to step in. That's you. The more defensive she gets the bigger your problem is. Seperate e-mail accounts? come on. Believe me I have been paralyzed with indecision, just like you, and it continues to bite me in the A$$. This will not die by itself but only intensify. A tremendous amount of embarrassment (should you turn out to be wrong) would be preferable to doing nothing should you be right.

WOE

I do not believe in spying in any way, but since you have already done it and have the information right in front of you, it seems you are in denial of what is going on. She and your friend are making you look like a fool. Emotional affair versus a physical affair, there is really no difference. Both are forms fo disrespect toward the spouse. I would give the information to his spouse and cut off any comunication with them as friends. Why would you want a friend like that? The more you allow it to go on, the worse it will get. You say she is exahusted after being at home, it does not make sense why she would be tired after sleeping while you are at work. You should suggest counseling for both. Her behaviour is not normal.

Thanks again for the replies. I do appreciate them no matter how harsh they may be. That's why I came here.

Anyway, I think walkingoneggs, ForeverHers and Why Me? have the two incidents mixed together. The first emails I had seen were back in Sept/Oct of 2003. Those were the emails about in my second post of this thread above. The ones where they were talking about heart racing, I love you etc. etc. I did confront them both. I even told the W I was filing for divorce since I was certain there was something going on between them. I then spoke to a good friend of mine and decided to not give up on the marriage so we went to MC.

Now after 6 months of inactivity between them, only a few emails (but all the "joke" kind and nothing of general chit chat or anything more personal) and I would know because I never did stop monitoring the W's email. I have read every email that has come and gone between the two of them. Then, last Thurs. I see the one my W sent to the OM about how she heard the song and it reminded her of him (3 Doors Down "Here Without You") and that's what prompted me to come here and hash this all out.

Maybe I am still living in "La La Land" but I don't think so. I did confront the W before and thought it was over. Then she sends this email and I am now wondering if it is going to take off again or what. I figured I would give it a few weeks to see what is happening between them, maybe there will be nothing. I mean to his credit, he (OM) did not reply to my W about that song. He did however mention on one email that maybe they will talk via the telephone. I have checked her cell phone recent call list and nothing there (I realize she very well could have deleted it) and nothing on the home phone either.

So do you all think I am still making a mistake by waiting a little while longer to see what plays out? I mean, I just would like to have more "proof" than one email. The OM is not using a secret email account at this point. I think that only proof that I have at this point is that she may still have feeling for him and was feeling him out to see if they could pick up where they left off. By his lack of response that may mean he isn't interested. I just want more than one email.

I really don't think I am in denial. That's why I am here. If I was in denial I never would have come here to begin with.

Keep it coming, let me know if you think I am screwing up. Right now I am in "Plan A" and kind of waiting to see if the emails continue. If they don't - great, if they do then I will come forth and lay it all on the line. I won't sit back and let it continue.

Thanks

MIF

Oh yeah,

Why Me?,

I don't feel proud of spying, but I truly feel that unless you have hard evidence you will not get a confession from those involved. They will deny it until faced with the proof that you have discovered. I felt this was the only way I could get that proof. I think of it the same as with criminals. They will deny they commited a crime until they realize the police have the evidence to prove they commited it. Even then some will never confess, but those that do don't do it just by being asked.

MIF?

MIF, I think you are justified in spying. That is the only way I know what is going on. Last week my W left her weekly pool league at 12:00 and returned home at 1:30. She told me it ran late. But the next day I checked her cell phone and saw that she exchanged calls with OM at 12:13AM. So that information is a lot more empowering than me simply accepting it ran late. Keep spying so you know what you are dealing with.

Yes, I did misunderstand the exchanges were before. But you said you think the OM isn't interested. In my opinion that is completely, completely and completely irrelevant. Lucky for you your W is pursuing a guy who probably isn't interested. But left unchecked she will eventually find someone who is. What is it she is looking for? That's what you need to address. Why does she need this guy?

In my case my W is pursuing a guy 11 yrs younger. He has no interest and frankly is probably both scared and embarrassed by her attention. It is obvious to everyone but her. Do you think it doesn't hurt me because it is a one sided EA. For a while I could rationalize, accept, ignore etc.etc. Now I am seeing an IC and counseling with Harley. And W is fighting counseling tough and nail. She doesn't want this fantasy to end. Ask yourself how you feel now and how you felt 6 mos. ago. Is your marriage getting better or worse. Look at the direction of things more than the state of things. The direction will give you a glimpse into the future.

WOE

WOE,

Well, I gotta say I really expected some activity from them today since I had to work last night. To my pleasant surprise - nothing. As far as our relationship goes, I thought it was actually getting better. I mean I almost uninstalled the software two weeks ago since things were going quite well (in my eyes). She gave me a card just because early last week, one of those mushy ones that says how happy she was she met and married me (I know that could be a sign of guilt though). So again, I am in plan "A" right now.

We are reading HN/HN and the book about hits the nail on the head. She wants more affection (which was a reason she gave 6 months ago about the emailing. She said he was just telling her nice things which made her heart race since I didn't show her the affection she craved).

I agree with you that it doesn't matter if it is a one sided EA. If she is carrying those feelings for another that is cause for concern.

MIF?

<small>[ March 24, 2004, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: marriage is forever? ]</small>

MIF, last week W sent me flowers to my office along with a card. I thanked her and that was about it. Well after we hung up with Harley last week she asked me did I tell him about the flowers. Made me wonder what was the intention of the flowers. So I could tell Harley, "yeah, everythings great now". I'm glad you got a good report today but I think you will know what is going on. I think you just feel it. I understand I am in a different situation but I can tell you when a song comes on the radio who W is thinking of, or if a certain color car drives by etc. I think you just follow your gut and don't be dissuaded by what you are being told. Is the spyware unethical? Maybe, but you are fighting for your life here. You're motives aren't to hurt your W but rather to protect your family. I know my W wishes I wouldn't check her phone but you she NEVER complains about it. She used to but I think deep down she knows shes wrong and I think it may say to her that I still care. Just a thought.

WOE

Well, I am officially on the emotional roller coasetrer. One minute I am so deeply hurt that my W could do this to me, the next I am furious at her for doing this to me. Then I am over ridden with guilt because I feel like I am the bad guy for snooping, then confusion about what to do. Do I wait to see if there is more interaction? Do I confront her now? What the hell?! My snooping was only done when I started to sense something wrong. My suspicions were confirmed by my snooping, why do I feel like the bad guy here?

Can I ever begin to trust my W again? I was just about to that point, like I had mentioned above, then she starts this all up again. I read on the boards here somewhere that having a little information is worse than none at all. I totally agree. There are a lot of blanks to fill in and I fill them in with every possible scenerio.

MIF?

<small>[ March 24, 2004, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: marriage is forever? ]</small>

WOE, so your W knows you check the cell phone? Isn't there a way she could delete a call from the call list or do you check the bill?

I am considering confronting my wife again and this time using Dr. Harley's policy of radical honesty. I am thinking maybe I will lay it all out there and tell her I have been snooping, tell her exactly what I had seen before, since she only thinks I had seen a couple of emails so her "excuse" last time was that she was just going to the OM for help doesn't really hold water. Since he was a friend she thought he could help provide insight to help our troubled marriage out.

I never tipped my hat as to the email monitoring so she thought I was just looking in her email inbox. I am thinking of pointing her here so that she can read this thread and know how hurtful she is being to me. I am just afraid to let the email software out into the open for two reasons.
1) I know it will be a HUGE LB for her
and
2) I will then lose that tool and might never know if she has started this stuff up again in the future.

I need to learn to trust her again, but until this all gets out in the open I don't know how to start back down that road.

MIF?