whoops!

well, just like you can't change that the a. happened, you can't change the physicalness of the op. it is a sense of closure. if she would had been better looking than me, better in bed, than me, seriously, i would have been gone! he never knew that about me. it is something that we need to make a choice so we may not humiliate ourselves! pretend your having sex with your s. you try another position that is way out of the norm for you. but find out that he already has tried it in the a! so its a choice. that is a small part of it! not all. i like to take back what was mine and make it better, if you know what i mean!
ali! bog- go easy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

knewbetter - Most likely theres not going to be any true radical honosty anyways, betrayal is going to be the BS mind in some fashion forever. It's like a deep wound, you get over the pain in most cases but there will always be that scar to remind you. Thats why scars exist, to remind you to be careful the next time.

Ali - In your case Leno dumped him, she wasnt what he thought she was, thats why hes so angry at Leno because she betrayed him. In his mind he's thinking "that ***** lied to me, now my life is all messed up".

He now regrets it im sure of that, but his old posts (yes, did my research <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) sound like a bitter dude to me. You must have done somthing better then Leno for him to come slithering back.
Your husband was away from you for a long time, why would he choose to leave for a job? who knows really but weak/low self esteem type of people somtimes latch onto anything and if there is nothing other then a goat(Leno) to keep them warm some guys grab the goat even though there is a princess waiting for them at home.

Look at me tyring to get all phycological, im a therapist in my own mind! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I am surprised to see anyone on here not wanting to know. I think it is a form of protective denial. Maybe the exception that proves the rule. :-)

I belong to many support boards like this, even run one list for relatioship-blues myself and I have yet to find a BW/BH who didn't want the details. Somehow if you have the details you know you have the knowledge. What is worst about betrayal is that they give their intimacy, the knowledge and honesty to someone else.

Even the car or motel they do it in has more intimacy and knowledge than the betrayed spouse. Another thing I hear from B's is that once they have to talk about it, the A, in the cold light of day it is revealed to them how paltry and cheap it was, this is some of their resistance, not wanting to burst the bubble of fantasy they were in at the time.

I found that as painful as it was, and my WH told me lots of it voluntary, early on to hurt me, while laying next to me in bed, his erection subsiding each tome he looked at me, explaining how he wanted her and I was not as good as her.(he nows says he was trying to force me to leave him so he could paint himself as a victim, I know how her breasts felt, how she kissed, and God help me he sometimes still forgets and kisses me that way! I almost throw up in his mouth! I knew that was how she kissed becuase he suddenly started kissing me that way and had never ever in 19 years before that.

But - when I called her I was able to tell her that I knew what they said, what they did, where they did it, so she knew she had nothing on me, was not a victim and had no excuse. I then told her i forgave her, I just felt sorry for her and the point of the phone call was to tell her that. I fugured she had no chance of changing her outlook and fixing herself unles she knew I forgave her. At first she tried denial and so I had to tell her the details and she recognised that I did know and said I could stop, after that she caved in. Then I told her I did forgive her, she was no longer a threat to me and I wanted her to know how I felt. If I could forgive her, then maybe she could forgive herself and so begin a change in the way she was handling her own marriage problems. I offered to be a soundng board for her if she needed one and a support to do the right thing. She sounded sad when she asked about my husband and I told her I had asked him to talk to her about it with me, but he said he never wanted to see her again and now hated the thought of her. So she got the truth, and let off the hook for the guilt of what she did, from me. I hope it has helped her change to be a better person. I entreated her that one mistake or a series of mistakes did not mean she had to continue to be that person. I have not had contact with her since, so do not know how she is or what is happening in her life.

BUT without knowing the truth I could never have forgiven her, nor called her, nor got her out of denial so she, at least to me, had to tell the truth AND heard it being said, out loud, out of her own mouth. Maybe a first step to being different and saving her family. I loved them dearly and had always supported them, but now all of that is gone.

Linda

Baaaaaahhhhh!

Funny Bog! I think I would rather have him screw a goat! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Silver, you have some good points. Yes, his apartment and her house has a lot of memories. If only the walls could talk! Sadly the stuff that he purchased for his love nest is in my house. We have a tree that he bought that we put on our stair case and everytime I go up/down the stairs, I think of the apartment and why he bought that damn tree.

PS, I am not surprized by the stats on the poll!

I wanted to know EVERY detail...I read over 100 emails to and from OW that provided me with so much detail it was like I was in the room with them. What I wasn't able to figure out in the emails I asked about and I think my H was honest (the fog lifted for him relatively quickly)...sometimes the answers really hurt but I wanted to know anyway. If I were relying on my H's memory (which we know would be selective...especially when in deep fog) I might have felt differently but the emails were VERY detailed (where, when, positions, feelings, 'success' etc) so there wasn't much he could have lied about. I'm still asking questions as they come to mind. For me, the emails and the following questions have made it clear as day to me that their relationship truly was a sad 'fantasy' that was going nowhere and had no hope of lasting indefinitely (even though they were soulmates that were going to raise my children together...yuck!).

Having read the emails provided me with the information I needed to point out her flaws (yes, against MB suggestions) and to point out what a sad and pathetic woman she really is...actually, sometimes the questions I asked made my H think and I think opened his eyes about her without me even saying anything else.

Does it hurt to know the details...absolutely. The visions/demons have been especially strong this week but, for me, it is better that I know than I wonder. Sometimes the truth makes me feel better. Sometimes it doesn't. I guess the point is that this will be a part of my life for the rest of my life so why not try to understand it fully? Everyone is different but, for me, if the demons are going to attack I want to be prepared with the proper ammunition (the truth).

Confusedmoc

I wish I could see the e-mails that they wrote to each other. My H's and the OW's e-mails were past around the office and a person who I am friends with told me that they were "Hot". Long story to how they got in the wrong hands. But when I have questions, it becomes selective memory. "I don't remember or I don't know", comes out! I think that is a crock! He knows but refuses to answer. But I think if I saw the e-mails it will help me. Can't go into other reasons at this time but I know it will help me!

Ali

knewbetter

Part of the value of full disclosure and radical honesty is that it takes down another wall of secrecy. More important it shows the BS that you are willing to be honest accross the board.

If you lie about anything then he will rightly assume that you can and might lie about everything.

Which would you prefer that he trust you because you told him the OM had more length and the affair is over? Or that your BS is hung like a mule and the affair is over?

You see if he doubts he is hung like a mule guess what....he doubts the affair is over.

Full disclosure brings you two together even though painful. Often its the continued lies that doom recovery almost as much as anything that happened during the affair.

So Ali,

Why not ask that person who told you, many people keep hot emails and such, see if they will send you copies.

Pretending to not know is just a lie ... he doesn't want to tell you the truth, doesn't want it spolied anymore than it is - but you know this.

He chose this situation when he chose to go outside his marriage for a solution to what he say was a problem.

Lucky he didn''t have to stay home with a seariously sick child while you went off having sex willy nilly to feeel better about having a dedicated loving spouse who was caring for "our" sick child.

Linda

I know pretty sick isn't it! He still blames her and calls her a slut. I respond back to him by saying; "You are the one that screwed her so what does that make you knowing fully well you were married?"

With the e-mails? I called my friend a week to late. They were already gone. But I did ask for details and she only read two out of the (no joke) hundred or so! But I might have others ways.
My friend is good friends with one of the IT manager. So I might ask again.

He never thought twice about it. He says he felt guilty when he was sexually active with her but then I asked; "The how the heck did you keep it up if you felt so guilty?"

We are putting my dog to sleep tomorrow and this is one more thing to why I hate March. Anyone live on land and love dogs? He is part Border collie and he needs lots of attention. He will be a great working dog????? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Ali

Take him to animal rescue, at least he will have a chance of finding someone .... they really try hard, also tell your vet to put up a card in his office as to the humane society or wherever he ends up, so if someone is looking for a dog they can know where to go. Here is a link to the page that has all the shleters on it in your area.

http://www.saveourstrays.com/illinois.htm

Linda

I am surprised that any one will advice dishonesty regarding size and quality of sex/ lovemaking. Personally, any ”damage control" in which the WS softens the blow by rewriting history or keeping back info, is very damaging to the healing power of the words from the WS. And for me that would undermine trust.

If the WS is overdoing the reassurance: "You are so much better", "I never stopped loving you", "you have always been #1 to me", then I find the spoken word too much in conflict with the acts. Why then the A in the first place?

When I find conflicts of this kind between words and acts I suspect “damage control” and doubt all that is said. And this doubt carries over to the rest of the restoration process as well.
Indeed, I fear this scenario very much, a false security based on lies and half truths. I would rather be divorced then living a lie. For me "damage control" seriously undermines the future relationship. This is a deep insecurity in me.

~BUMP~

At first, I wanted to know every freakin' detail, but FWS was pretty insightful and told me more of the emotional aspect of the affair and was open about who the OW was, etc. I kept hearing that it's not good for the BS to know how many times and in what positions, so I've tried to refrain from asking those questions. Now, that FWS seems to be truly remorseful, I don't have any more questions.

I wanted details but WS wanted to shove everything under the rug...he would not tell me anything and therefore I had to find out about OW from other sources...all I had to do was mention OW's name and the info I got about her was shocking...let's just say not one to take home to meet Mom...it's funny the info from everyone was the same but WS says they are all lies and she is not like that..."I know her like no one else does" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Bet you do honey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I suspect the reason he would not tell me anything was due to the fact he knew I would be shocked he could take up with this type of OW...if he had of taken an hour and sat down with me and told me everything I would have respected him more but to have to find out from other sources was so hurtful

I voted yes to all the questions

I think that if the BS wants the details
that the WS OWES them the truth.

I asked my WS for details and he told me
the truth it hurt but it hurt him also to tell
me the details.

He also showed me were they would meet up at
And some details . I didn't want deep details like positions are anything.I can fill the blanks in myself.

And New Outlook I am sorry and sorry he went back
After you tried so hard.You will be OK really you will.
You can do what ever it takes to get tru this
It might not feel like it at times but you will.

And mine also picked a skank
Never would of guessed he would of went so low
I know my MOW and her ways from her H

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And New Outlook I am sorry and sorry he went back
After you tried so hard.You will be OK really you will.
You can do what ever it takes to get tru this
It might not feel like it at times but you will
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for your support...I don't know where I would be without this board...it has been so helpful to understand what I am going through...WS wrote today that he needed time to clear his head...and that he was thankful I had changed..he knows I am getting stronger...you and I have been married about the same length of time...so happy for you that your marriage is looking brighter <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ March 30, 2004, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: New Outlook ]</small>

One thing that BSs need to understand is that it is very difficult and embarrasing to tell it all. But I agree that maybe is best to say the truth about any questions for the WS. The real truth or all the details are too difficult to tell and I believe most keep them to themselves.

Embarrassing? Yes! But WS shouldn't have been in that position in the first place! So there is no sympathy in my end if my H. is embarrassed. Serves him right! Also think how embarrassing it is on the BS? Eventually it will come out that an A. was in the marriage and a lot of people are so naive when it comes to A's. Some just don't know the whole truth and only assumes the worst on the BS! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Ali

Hey Stunned Dad, I liked the way you phrased your answer! I've got a running argument going with someone and need different ways to articulate Radical Honesty in every area. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> How are you guys doing anyway?

Frank57, No one on MB would advise damage control. Rereading this thread I realized I wasn't clear.

Like I said I had (operative word: had) this overall policy but if you put it under the microscope of Radical Honesty,of course it doesn't hold up. Now I am having trouble in defending RH to someone who believes that unless something is kind, necessary and true, it should not be said. She brought up the size issue which I had never thought about before. In my own case all things were equal so I didn't quite know how to answer. I was hoping that BS/WS's who had encountered this particular issue would share about this. Sorry for the confusion.