Chris,
You responded to one of Bog's posts with

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Way too unfair
So how will hurting someone you love, "make it fair"?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Chris, that's just it. I think most BS aren't sure they do love their FWS. Bog is struggling with it. I'm struggling with it and it sounds as though Ali is as well. Jaded is struggling with it. Cliff, too. Hundreds, thousands more are struggling with it. You can say I'm too early (7 months) in the recovery to know what I want but I've known about an EA for two years.

I'm not bitter about her A anymore. Just not sure I want to spend the rest of my life with her.

Everyone alsways says divorce is the easy way out. Believe me in California it's not true for MaleBS who want out. Community property states give the house and half of everything else to the women. If you've been married for more than 10 years you'll pay alimony until she remarries or dies. This doesn't include child support.

I always thought MaleBS thought this way more than FemaleBS but based upon the responses sounds as though it is pretty evenly divided.

Here's to surviving another day and week.

cwmac

No Chris,

First of all I live too far away. And I am not looking to have one! Have I ever thought about it? Yes! I have dreamed about it? Yes. But please, I am only considering his feelings.

Bog, did not say he was going to do it! It is what he feels. He has been hurt and violated and is feeling no closure. You have to understand that by talking about it is a kind of therapy.

I understand that us posters are trying to guide him in the right direction. But please validate his feelings!

OK afraid to ask this but looking at my pole I posted a week ago, there are a lot of B'S out there that does believe in a RA!

OK nuff said! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Ali

Does anyone here think that having sex causes amnesia?? Do you think it erases your brain cells.

Bog, you are thinking what every BS that has ever posted on this site has thought at one time or another. I have yet to read a post by a BS that had an RA and is still married that felt it worked out as they thought it would.

Your pain, will NOT go away, because if you don't trust her now, you don't respect her now, you don't love her now, screwing some other woman is not going to change that. It will simply mean that you have done the same and let her off the hook. You will never be able to voice your concerns about her again, because you will be no better.

If you think you can hold your tongue then, or forgive then, or forget then, then you can do it now with out debasing yourself.

If you cannot handle what she has done, then LEAVE her, and dont' give me the "but I love her" bs. You don't love her if you want to hurt her. That is in fact what you are struggling with right now isn't it??? How could she do this and love you? If you cannot handle the situation now, you won't later.

Time to face the music, she did what she did, you either work through it, or you leave. I am not saying "get over it" I am saying address it, ask for her help, accept her help. But, the reality is that the woman you are married to betrayed you. If she is the same woman now as she was then she will betray you again. If she has learned and grown she very likely won't. You going out and having a RA is not going to change that. She will never feel the PAIN as you did because she is NOT you.

If she doesn't understand how deeply she hurt you, trying to show her won't help either because she already lacks empathy.

So you work through it, or you leave it. But, you will NOT cause amnesia by having an RA.

Please think about this further. You feelings are understandable and as I said very normal. But, I fear you will find that not only will the RA not solve your problem it will hurt YOU. Please consider the following quote and think about what it means to the actions you propose.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you think she will die if you hurt yourself having an RA. You will lose your own moral compass, you will lose self-respect unless of course you think having an A is a good thing, you could get a disease, you may and very likely will hurt another person the OP in this case. And will your W be hurt? If she doesn't understand your pain now, she won't be hurt.

Think long and hard what you will lose doing this.

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does anyone here think that having sex causes amnesia?? Do you think it erases your brain cells. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let's see, it did for my husband! Forgetting that he had a wife at home. So apparently so!

I mentioned about a year ago about comparing death to infidelity. Because death is final and
you know the out come, it is a lot easier to deal with. Just my opinion! I have lost friends and relatives somehow came to peace with it and accepting it. Sure it hurts. One of my friends committed suicide. Talk about no closure! But the reality didn't reminded me every day of the pain. But knowing that there are so many unsolved issues with an Affair is hard to handle. For myself, I am consistantly reminded of what he has done to me. I see him and I am reminded unfortunately. I am reminded how he was going to give up everything and forgetting that I have been through hell with him and to "dump" me after everything that happened to us is astronomically selfish.
But Please read his post carefully. It is just a "What if" I were to have one. CWMAC said it the best. All of us BS' are hurt and dismayed over our WS actions. Most of us (me) feel that there will never be closure. I am upset at my H. because he is not being accountable for his actions! He says he is sorry but then goes into saying what a slut she is. When I hear that, I hear the pain of him being dumped. Naturally, I want to run into the arms of another. I need comfort too. He is a man that is proclaiming is love for me and is still mourning his lost? Am I suppose to just sit here and think to "Oh you poor baby". Wrong!
Just getting up and leaving is not as easy. I have always said; "If he ever cheated on me, I'd be so gone that all he would see left of me is my signature on the divorce papers smoking from me signing it". Well, I just ate my words. Easier said then done. Trust has been violated, drained, gone. Seeking support and getting yourself esteem back from another who does approve enough of you, so you don't feel so horrible about yourself, is sometimes seeked out.
Now if we want to talk about the Plan A. situation, for me it was one tough pill to swallow! I am 100% positive that us BS' at the time of dicovering our WS, feel a bit of competitiveness . We want what was ours back. It kind of brings us in a fog as well. I will do what ever it takes to get him back. Obviously he was so desirable to some one else so he must be worth something! But later on, we slip out of our fog and think about it more and more. And reality sets in. Wait! Look how much he has hurt me. He is not all that wonderful. Look what has happened? He is not sorry. Why should I butter his butt when I am hurting and he is holding back. Our love bank becomes in the negetive. So we often dream what it would be like having someone there to ease up the pain for what we have been through!
Even through counseling our (mine) thought wonder about this.
Questions?? This is just my view on it. As I said before, I do not condone RA's!

Ali

Bog,

I know what you are going through. At least your WW said she was sorry. Mine has yet to do it. A RA is not the answer, I don't know what is, but you need to keep yourself as clean as possible. It could be worse. Look at my life. My WS keeps telling me that I have done everything right. There is no reason for what she did and she doesn't seam sorry for it. On top of all of this I have lost my job. Hang in there if she is sorry there is hope. Don't do what she did.

Ali continued my thoughts from above by adding...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am 100% positive that us BS' at the time of dicovering our WS, feel a bit of competitiveness . We want what was ours back. It kind of brings us in a fog as well. I will do what ever it takes to get him back. Obviously he was so desirable to some one else so he must be worth something! But later on, we slip out of our fog and think about it more and more. And reality sets in. Wait! Look how much he has hurt me. He is not all that wonderful. Look what has happened? He is not sorry. Why should I butter his butt when I am hurting and he is holding back. Our love bank becomes in the negetive. So we often dream what it would be like having someone there to ease up the pain for what we have been through! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ali, all I can say is 'amen sister!'

I have posted on this theme in the past. The responses were limited.

I completely agree that the BS also enters a fog after suspicion/discovery of an A. The anxiety pumps massive quantities of adrenaline through our systems. Most BS report not being able to sleep or eat. They lose wait. We are in a state of hyperawareness for a prolonged period of time.
I believe that we are experiencing the marital equivalent of our bodies primordial "fight or flight" system that helped our ancestors saty alive.

Once the WS becomes a FWS the need to be in this state diminishes. The "tiger" is no longer chasing us. We can relax a bit and that's when the mind takes over to process what just happened. I fought to stay with this person because of the threat but do I want to.

Some will process the information and decide to stay married by saying that marriage is "god's will". Others will stay because of the kids. Others because divorce, although prevalent throughout American society, is still viewed as a failure. Some stay for financial reasons. Some are just to lazy or scared to start over. Fear of the future is a big factor. Some just no longer have any faith in their spouse. They aren't the person we married. Of course all of these factors can combine in different ways.

I personally think its healthy to go through this thought process. Those that do and decide to stay married will more than likely be happier in the future with their decision versus those who just blindly stay married.

Just my humble opinion.

cwmac

BTW, Revenge Affair is a misnomer.

Most BS don't have their own affairs to exact revenge from the FWS. They have affairs because their self esteem has been so shattered that they feel the need to do something similar to rebuild it. They need to find someone to love them in a similar light. I often hear people on this board say "I want to find someone to fall in love with me."

Yes, I realize that the BS is just falling to the level of the WS. Or is it that the WS has dragged the BS down to their self esteem level. Probably the latter.

For the sake of the marriage the BS will hopefully find other avenues from which to boost their self esteem: work, hobbies, recreation, charity, school etc. Unfortunately the effects of the A make these outside interests seem less important and we lose interest in them at a time when we should seek shelter in them.

So should we rename RA's too something like Self Esteem Affair or Reactionary Affair or Me Too Affair or.....?

Sorry if some of you don't think that thoughts like this should be expresseed on this board but I agree with Ali's comment to Chris. She reminded him that talking about these issues is therapeutic and most people will be less likely to act on them if they explore them.

Any other names for RAs???

cwmac

I'm reading this and so much is sounding more and more like what I feel !

Somebody once posted a place for us to put WHY we wait for the WS.

But once you hit the point, and go back and read through what you yourself put down.... you realize...wait...I'm not seeing something as clearly as I should.

WH was my best friend. Well I know a lot of my own ENEMIES that wouldn't betray me to that lattitude.

I'm curious now myself. I'd really like to know why some of us try to work through it and rebuild. I know there are those out there that leave the WS, and move on, without hesitancy.

I'd love to get in the mind of THOSE people. I think their insight would be very valuable. They have reasons for NOT wanting to work on the marriage...and I'm sure they are valid.

I wonder if we brainwash ourselves, believing so much in these plans, we latch onto them to bring peace in some way that we are DOING SOMETHING as opposed to facing harsh realities.

I agree, this may not be the goal of the forum. But let's face it....ALL of us BS...have these feelings !

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She reminded him that talking about these issues is therapeutic and most people will be less likely to act on them if they explore them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep!

As for a new name? Hummm, I'll think about that one!

Ali <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ April 03, 2004, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]</small>

Bog - I always say 2 wrongs do not make a right. :-)


I was at one time tempted to have a RA, not because I didn't love my husband or wanted to get back at him (ok, a little bit of that) but just because I needed to be held and feel the warmth of another body next to mine. I always told my husband my favorite time of day was when we would first get into bed at night to watch television and he was under the covers with me and our kitty and I would just lay my hand on his chest. That was the best feeling and I miss it so damn much I am starting to cry now just thinking about it.

So, with not getting my ENs met by my husband I was getting very antsy. I was developing a closer friendship with a guy whom I kinda work with who has been through a similar situation with his wife (they reconciled) and he would talk to me and give me advice. I always made sure not to say anything to him that I wouldn't want my husband to hear because I didn't want to "start" anything with #1 anyone who wasn't my husband and #2 a married man.
I think he told me things that he probably wouldn't say in front of his wife (ie, you're hot, great body, WH is lucky to have me fighting for our marriage, etc.) and although I was flattered, I had a feeling that he would jump on the "chance" if he had it. So, we were talking one afternoon last week and I told him about trust being like a paycheck and not the lottery - you have to earn it. He laughed and asked me if that was in one of the books I told him I read about marriages and I told him it was on this website. I also told him that the key to a successful friendship between men and women (implying our friendship) would be to never say anything to each other that our spouses couldn't/wouldn't/shouldn't hear. He agreed with me. Now, I think I said that to him because I was almost tempted to indulge in a RA. I am so glad that I said something to keep it above board.

We are in such a fragile state right now, the last thing we need is to become the OW/OM and destroy another family the same way we've been crapped on. JMHO.

Wow
I just read this whole thread and I must say this is one of the most real threads I have read in a long time.Not to say the others I read are not real feelings but you guys are touching on a subject that I think needs to be talked about.

I rarely post here anymore,I read on the forum almost daily but like many here I have had these thoughts and feelings.

I believe it is the need to feel loved,to feel special.I know for me I no longer feel special he took that from me.Ali88 your thoughts and feelings are so much like mine.I told H the other day "Why did I spend all those years taking care of myself so that he could be proud to call me his wife,I should have just let my self go after all the out come would be the same".I feel like all the work I did over all the years was thrown away like old trash to be replaced with something new.
I can honestly say that I do not know if I will ever love my H like I once did.I can honestly say that after 15m I still hurt and still feel the need to be special.

Yes I think of it all the time,however I know for me I would leave my marriage before I would ever have a PA.

I guess maybe it is not revenge I am seeking but that feeling of love,that you are worth more than anything,that they would risk it all just for you.Thats what I want to feel.

I think Gingersnap nailed it:

"I believe it is the need to feel loved, to feel special. I know for me I no longer feel special he took that from me."

And here also lies the reason why a RA will be a failure. Anyone entering a RA will have the wrong set of mind to really gain anything from it. It will be an A without the benefit of the fun and excitement. You betray, but do not get the reward of an EA or a great sex. And with that mindset you will not feel "special" even from the OP. It is a loose - lose situation. You will get only shame and a strong sense of failure out of it.

<small>[ April 05, 2004, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: Frank57 ]</small>

revenge affair? what is that about? come on...what does having an affair have to do with having an adult, mature and loving relationship...except to impede it's growth!?

please, if you want to screw around at least have the integrity to call it just that..screwing around! revenge affair my @ss!

coach

Hi JMHO,

You put those feelings into very eloquent words and I admire the way you handled the situation with your co-worker. It is definitely NOT easy to walk away from a situation like that holding your head up high when it could have been so easy to have YOUR EN's met for once. I completely understand your feelings.

I have never thought about having a revenge affair on my husband, but I have to admit that I have had thoughts about being with someone else. This had nothing to do with wanting to hurt my husband, getting even with him or even having 'one up on him'. No, it had something to do with just feeling that someone cares about me, my feelings and thinks that I'm a good and worthy person to be around. Having to 'work' on a marriage is HARD work, especially if the other person is fence-sitting, cake-eating etc. Sometimes it gets real exhausting to constantly work on it when things should be so natural. I long for my relationship to be natural and free-flowing again.

I don't think I could ever deliberately go out there seeking someone just to have a ONS or an affair. I would want to fall in love just like I did when I met my husband. We met by chance and I fell in love with him the moment that I laid eyes on him.

Anything else would just make the pain worse....

However, I do not think that I could ever be the OW of a MM, not only because I know the pain that this would cause his family, but also because I do not think that I could ever forgive myself for doing this to another human being.

Kati


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ICouldNotAskForMore:
We are in such a fragile state right now, the last thing we need is to become the OW/OM and destroy another family the same way we've been crapped on. JMHO. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Well, thats a lot of posts on this subject.

I understand right vs wrong / good vs evil.

many of these posts explain self esteem problems, needing to be loved, hugged etc.

I dont have a self esteem problem, in fact i happy with myself and i had and have opportunities to have A's right now, multiple. I dont think bad about myself.

I dont need hugs etc., im feeling betrayed, its completely different.

For those who dont get it, imagine your best friend (same sex) stealing from you or when your in a fight with sombody and your best friend starts to hit you and helps your enemy.

My wife is my friend, we laugh, play, better then average sex etc., the thing that is missing is the trust, it is one sided, my wife used my trust against me to have her fling or whever you want to call it. If i did not fully trust my wife she could not have had her A. Problem is I trust my wife again to be an honost person, she shouldnt be trusted, yet i trust her. Sounds crazy doesnt it?

Hi Bog,

I think all of us BS's 'get it' and we know what it feels like to be betrayed by the person that we trusted the most. To me it felt like having my heart ripped out and torn to pieces.

You keep saying that you have many opportunities to have an A right now? If you are a nice guy, pretty decent looking and easy to talk to, then it is probably not very difficult to attract a woman's attention. Same goes with me. I'm a very good-looking woman with a hot body and if I wanted to get laid tonight, it probably wouldn't be very difficult to find a guy who wanted to get in my pants. Plus I love sex and I probably would enjoy it a lot.

What's stopping you?

You know what is stopping me? My self-respect. I think this is what is stopping you as well. I think deep down inside, behind all of this hurt and pain, you are a great guy with lots of self-respect and respect for the people around him. This is something that you should be proud of and not look down upon.

You say that you trust your wife... I don't think you do and you shouldn't. She will need to earn your trust again and this is something that you should insist upon.

Hugs, even if you don't need'em... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Kati

Dang, is it getting hot in here or is it me?

Lets reread the post again shall we?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> please, if you want to screw around at least have the integrity to call it just that..screwing around! revenge affair my @ss!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because that is NOT what is happening here. A revenge affair is NO more a desire to screw around than suicide by BSs is a death wish.

Both are UNHEALTHY responses to an emotional trauma.

Don't believe then look at this thread by Orchid:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=027590

Now do you truly believe those MBs that expressed a desire to kill themselves actually have a death wish or are they having an emotionally unhealthy response to discovering an affair?

I would argue that seeking a revenge affair is much more sane than ending one's life. Indeed it fits the eye for an eye fight fire with fire mentality. It's still wrong--its still unhealthy but it is certainly a more logical response than suicide or the flipside homicide. Murder is something that is highly likely to happen to a female WS at the hand of an enraged betrayed husband. And many a time the OM is killed by an enraged husband. On this board both BHs and BWs have expressed desire to kill WS or OP or both.

Now am I supporting revenge affairs? H#ll no but my point is this is a reaction to something not a hidden desire to screw around for most BSs.

BTW Bog

You will never get "even".


Your spouse had the first affair. You finish second not even.

Your spouse had an affair because they wanted to or allowed it to happen. You are thinking of having an affair because you feel like you have to not because you want to. Still not even.

Finally you aren't going to get the one real thing you really want and that is stick your WS with the same pain you feel. You won't get it because your WS expects it. Feels you deserve to have it. Feels like they deserve to betrayed. Hopes you will to reduce their sense of guilt and shame.

You didn't expect. You didn't deserve. You don't feel you deserve to be betrayed. You don't have guilt or shame. So your still not even.

The closest even you can get is to make the OP has to go through the same pain with his/her family as you are having to go through....that's really the closest to getting even as you can hope to get.

Revenge affair? No way.
My FWH said something to me that easily killed any thought about it. He can never look his children in the face and say he has forever been faithful to their mother and that it a shame he'll never forgive himself for.
AT