Ginger,
I think I can see some things in your relationship that "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" could explain to you also -

However, I want to add to the discussion about doing things for you.

To be healthy and well rounded, we need to take care of ourselves. Most of us accept that we need to eat right, exercise a little bit, get enough sleep, practice good grooming habits etc.

I bet you do pretty well at these things. - except for maybe the sleep, and the exercise. But, you understand all these things, and you believe in them.

There are things we need to do for emotional health also. I think taking time for ones self to relax and unwind is one of those things.

The fact is, that UNLESS YOU TAKE PROPER CARE OF YOURSELF, YOU CAN'T GIVE AS MUCH TO OTHERS.

I understand what you are saying about this gal that was very self centered. I don't believe you will have this problem.

It is good to care for others, but don't neglect yourself.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

SS

May day off spent with an old friend was great.We had a wonderful time.She knows my H and has for all of our married life.She just kept telling me she could not believe he did this to me.

I am actually feeling better I think the steps I have taken to correct the hormone imbalance are starting to work.

I know it is time for me to make a decision.I just dont know if I am ready.It has been almost 2yrs since dday I know in my heart I must put this to rest.But by doing this a part of me still feels like I am saying what he did was acceptable.

ginger,

I'd like to highly recommend a book to you. I met the author at the Smart Marriage conference, I was very moved by her seminar.

It is called "Forgiving the Unforgiveable: Overcoming the Bitter Legacy of Intimate Wounds " by Beverly Flannagan MSSW who is a therapist and professor.

I've told you before that forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. Letting go of this doesn't mean you "accept" it....it means you stop allowing it to hold you in bondage and poison your joy. You deserve better.

But by doing this a part of me still feels like I am saying what he did was acceptable.

I don't understand this. What makes you feel this way?

Thank you Star I will look for the book.I know that forgiveness holds a big key for me.Funny I have always been one that forgave and never thought much about it,thats just what I did,that was me.I dont even understand myself why this has been so hard.

SAB.....I guess the reason I feel this way is that my H has done so much thru out the M.I just end up keeping quiet and going on.So in a way I guess I was telling him that anything you do to me is ok,I wont do anything in return.So in a sense he probably figured what did he have to loose if it did not work out with her I would always be there,because I always have been in the past.
I also believe it has to do with everything that was happening during this time.I know my H was searching if it would not have been w/this OW it would have been w/someone else.It was not something that "Just happened",he was looking.

I guess the reason I feel this way is that my H has done so much thru out the M.I just end up keeping quiet and going on.So in a way I guess I was telling him that anything you do to me is ok,I wont do anything in return.

Waddya mean? Nothing? You left chere! Moved out. And forgiveness is SOMETHING too! The one thing you refuse to do is the only thing that will heal you.

So in a sense he probably figured what did he have to loose if it did not work out with her I would always be there,because I always have been in the past.

But you aren't there NOW...what's left to prove?

I also believe it has to do with everything that was happening during this time.I know my H was searching if it would not have been w/this OW it would have been w/someone else.It was not something that "Just happened",he was looking.

Let me share something with you....even if had just happened....it would hurt every bit as bad. What he did was awful no matter HOW it happened.

Free your soul ginger....you're not punishing him...you're punishing you. Hasn't he done enough of that without HELPING him????

Like giving, you need to forgive yourself before you can forgive anyone else.

Star I'd love to read that book but I can't find it in Ontario anywhere.

<small>[ October 05, 2004, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: SAB ]</small>

You are right I am the one being punished.
I want him to hurt like me and I know that will never happen but still I want it.

I am reading a book right now to help ME to break this cycle of unproductive anger and fighting.

I am trying not to let things get me down.It is hard,maybe if I would have seen a tear when I left,or maybe if I felt he could not go on without me in his life I could let go.I just want to feel like I am important.

So many people have tried to help me,I know right now it is me,its up to me to help myself.
They have pointed out all that is good in me,all that I have done and put up with over the years.They have told me how my life will go on even if H is gone.
Still inside I feel as tho this is just one more wrong he did to me and paid no price for it.
Why should he change right??

Kind of like a child that does wrong but never gets punished why should they stop?

I know it feels wrong. But why should you hold you breath and put your life on hold until that happens? He will get his someday. Is he worth living in limbo for?

I just came across this book "How Can I Forgive You?: The Courage to Forgive, the Freedom Not To"
by Janis Abrahams Spring. Here's a summary:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We have been taught that forgiveness is the only healthy, morally sound response to violation, and that it must be granted without conditions, even when the person who hurt us is unremorseful -- even when that person is dead.

In her long-awaited second book, the gifted therapist and bestselling author of After the Affair debunks these myths. Drawing on twenty-nine years as a clinical psychologist, Dr. Spring proposes a radically new, life-affirming alternative that lets us overcome the corrosive effects of hate and get on with our lives -- without forgiving. She also offers a powerful and unconventional model for genuine forgiveness -- one that asks as much of the offender as it asks of us. Forgiveness is no gratuitous gift, she argues. We can heal ourselves, but forgiveness must be earned.

How Can I Forgive You? answers such crucial questions as:

How do I forgive someone who can’t or won’t apologize for hurting me?
How do I reconcile with an unrepentant offender and maintain my self-respect?
If I can’t forgive, how do I putthe injury behind me?
Is forgiveness my job alone, requiring nothing in return?
When is forgiveness cheap, and when is it genuine?
What can the offender do to earn forgiveness?
How can I encourage the offender to seek my forgiveness?
What is self-forgiveness? How do we achieve it?

This bold and healing book offers concrete, step-by-step instructions that help us to make peace with our partner, parent, sibling, child, in-law, or friend -- and with ourselves. Penetrating and beautifully written, How Can I Forgive You? is bound to change forever the way we think about forgiveness and how we recover from intimate wounds.

About the Author

Janis Abrahms Spring Ph.D., is a nationally acclaimed expert on issues of trust, intimacy, and forgiveness. A Diplomate ináClinical Psychology and a recipient of the Connecticut Psychological Association’s Award for Distinguished Contribution to the Practice of Psychology, she has served as a clinical supervisor in the Department of Psychology at Yale University. Her first book, After the Affair: Healing the Pain and Rebuilding Trust When a Partner Has Been Unfaithful, has sold over 200,000 copies and is published in 12 countries.

Dr. Spring received her B.A. from Brandeis University, magna cum laude, her Ph.D. in clinical psychology from the University of Connecticut, and her post-graduate training from Aaron T. Beck, M.D., at the Center for Cognitive Therapy at the University of Pennsylvania. The richness and originality of her work make her a popular media guest and a prized presenter to both professional and lay audiences. In private practice for almost three decades, she resides in Westport, Connecticut. She and her husband, Michael Spring, have four sons.

Michael Spring is publisher of the Frommer’s Travel Guides at John Wiley. He has a B.A. from Haverford College and an M.A. in English Literature from Columbia University. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ October 06, 2004, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: SAB ]</small>

SAB,

I'm so glad you brought up that book....it is phenomenal and I love it. Amazon has the other book...do they ship in your area?

Thank you SAB

I do see a pattern w/my H one he does not see or wishes not to.Everything is fine if I dont rock the boat by asking anything of him,such as change.

I asked him why is it me that must always change and accept for things to be ok.Why can he not do anything to change.

Why is he worth it,this fight?? I dont know other than he is the only relationship I have ever had,I met him when I was just 14yrs old in HS,we were HS sweethearts and married at a young age.I look back and I'm sure getting married was not the answer to my being pregnant but it was what we did,and I believe what my parents wanted.Did I love him?? With all my heart,probably more than any 16yr old could love a boy.

I think that at times if I had been in a few relationships and gone thru all the stuff of breaking up getting your heart broken and falling in love again I would not be like I am today.Afraid.
I dont know anything or anyone but him,as angry and hurt as I am I still cant let go.He continues to do things that upset me and still I cant let go.I know in my heart he will always be this way and still I hang on.

It is like in my heart and mind I know everything that is right and what I should do but it seems I cant.Instead I do the same old thing of getting more hurt,more angry.

I have even been looking at me moving,it was not a strong thing on my part,he wanted it,kept telling me to move get a job here and stay.Once again I conformed to his wishes and moved.This was not a decision I made out of strenght or power to show him I could live without him,I felt like I was being pushed out so I left.

Thankyou once again and I will look for these books that you and Star have suggested.

I see a starting point in your last post....a place to begin to feel more empowered.

"H, I didn't move for the right reasons. I moved because I felt that was what you wanted...it wasn't really my choice. However, I've decided to stay here for the right reasons....because I want to....and I choose to."

Moving for the wrong reasons is not a crime chere...many of us feel compelled to do things don't really want to. But make a decision about the move now....that is a choice and is empowering.

Also, here's a question for you. If your husband continues to hurt you....why do you still have contact with him? "What we tolerate, does not change".

I wish I could answer that question.I dont know why.I dont seem to have the power not to talk to him.
Maybe I am looking for a sign that he is hurting like me,and when I dont see it I get more upset feeling like I am a nobody,that I can be tossed aside just like that.

I dont know why I cant be stronger,this is the part of me I hate the most.

<small>[ October 06, 2004, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: gingersnap ]</small>

ginger....that's why both of those books deal with how to forgive someone who is unremorseful. Your husband may NEVER show remorse (or he may show remorse in a language that you don't understand). Either way, there is a price, a burden...that will keep you trapped in this place....and even if he COULD or WOULD be hurt and remorseful....it won't matter until you explore your own reasons for staying stuck here. Do you believe that if you stop suffering that he'll never suffer? Aside from the fact that you can't control his feelings....the best revenge is LIVING WELL and HAPPILY and to stop suffering.

(((((((((((((ginger))))))))))))))))

Thats what I love about you Star,you always know just the right words.

All that you say makes sense to me it really does,I just dont understand myself why I am so stuck.

I think a part of me feels weak for staying in this marriage,a part of me feels like I am staying because it is the easiest thing to do and still another part of me wants to just go on try and find happiness w/my H and forget this thing ever happened.But then there is the part that feels like if I let go it will happen again because he will think that was way to easy why not the next time temptation comes knocking.
I know I am not strong enough to ever go thru anything like this again.

I also think that this fear is what keeps me from ever wanting to start another relationship,the fear that someone else will do the same things to me.

I will keep reading and praying the God gives me the strength I need to do what is right for me.

Last night I put into effect some of the principals of change I have been reading about in my book "The Dance of Anger".

Yesterday as I read, the words in the book could have been me and my H.The dance we do.
I know and am seeing that I can not change him,but I only have the power to change me.

So last night when he called I did what is suggested,I changed my part of the dance.
There was a difference in him also after some time of him talking about the same old stuff that he has told me about over and over again,he opened up just a bit to tell me how he felt.
I guess its a starting point.In the end if I can apply what I am learning to my life and keep it up as hard as it might be,and as fake as it might feel right now, I think I will become a stronger person.
I may get to the point of being able to go on w/my M and putting this nightmare behind me or being strong enough to say goodbye.

You are justifiably apprehensive and ambivalent--once bitten, twice shy. I think you've hit it right on. I'm so proud of you for changing your part of the dance. How did it feel for you to do that? It sounds to me as if you felt liberated in some small way. That's a great baby step. What's the next step?

{{{{{GINGER}}}}}}}

Hi Ginger,
You sound hopeful - and it's been a while since I heard that in your voice.

It is go good to see Star, and SAB here like this. I think you are getting some of the best help availible. Isn't it nice to have people like them around who know what they are talking about.

I want to know too, how did it feel to change the dance?

I have another question for you - but let me set it up with a comment first.

God works with all of us, and all of us make mistakes. He tries to keep us from mistakes, but he has a recovery program for when we make them.

The question is this -
When we make a mistake, does God want us to be punished, or does he want to help us change, teach us not do it again, and have us be redeemed ?

Does he want to see us burn in hell, or does he want to save us?

Now, this kind of goes along with the questions Star has been asking you. Keeping the answer to that question in mind, what would progress look like in your relationship?


It sounds to me like the book you are reading is helping. It is good to read something each month, because it keeps things in our mind, and if not, we tend to get tired after a while and quit thinking.

However, that is what TIME FOR YOU does, it gives you a rest, so that you can continue to work hard in the other things that life requires of you.


On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being complete recovery) where is your hope for your marriage right now?

Cheers,

SS

Right now by doing what I am doing it feels like I am going back into "silent submission" as the book referse to it,but please know that I am not.

I am letting him talk,even if to me it feels like superficial(sp)babeling.I am not getting upset by saying things like "You never want to talk about the real issues,the deep issues" the words that usually started the never ending circular dance of anger and fighting.
When it is right I calmly say what I need to say,telling him of my feelings,fears wants and desires.

SS..............I know what God wants from me,he wants me to forgive.I also know how patient God is and that I would not be here today if it were not for his Grace and Love.
But I will also be very honest this A is the only thing since I have become a christian that has rocked my boat.
Finacial trouble did not rock me,my D getting pregnant at 18 did not rock me,my S using drugs did not rock me,living w/a back sliden H did not rock me,watching a close friend die of cancer did not rock me.All these things made me stronger helped me to learn to lean on God.But the A,it has almost done me in but I have been fighting not to let it win but it has been the hardest fight of all in my life.Forgiving my H for this has proven so far to be the hardest thing I have ever had to endure thus far.
If my M makes it or not I know that I will have to forgive him 100% for what he has done.

Where is my M today in recovery?? maybe at about a 3,there is still alot of work ahead and at times I really do not see us making it.
But then I also can not picture life without H in it good or bad.

<small>[ October 08, 2004, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: gingersnap ]</small>