Ron -

Nooooooo. Not time for Plan B. You need to be firmly in Plan A. I would like you to jump over to general questions and post. There is more traffic there, and you will get more input.

Also read Ark's post about Plan A musing, grounding yourself (or something like that). She is the expert.

Ron,

I would advice you call the Harley's again and get some strategy worked out.

My personal feeling is that your Love Bank is draining, and if that is the case, YOU need to be in plan B, and soon. It has been noted by many including Dr. Harley that folks go to plan B too late.

Do your children know of this?
Have you told OM's W?
Have her friends and family been notified?

You need to do this exposure especially the OM's W. They won't like it BUT... it is effective.

Frankly, you are doing all you can do, and the issues she has and given this is NOT her only affair suggest that things must hit bottom before they go up. There is a poster here named WAT who is on vacation right now, but his son died of cancer, and his W ran off with the neighbor. It ended the marriage despite all of his efforts.

I think this is a particularly difficult situation, and given you have been here before, you need the best help you can get. I would call the Harley's and get that help.

I think this has a way to go, but I have also seen the stats and watch some couples here who have lost children. I am thinking plan B will be here sooner than you think. You will need it for YOUR recovery even if the marriage doesn't make it. She is being very cruel and it will get worse as you try to deposit in her LB.

But, remember this while she fights them, tries to ignore them, you are planting seeds, and they may germinate to grow, one cannot tell at this point.

So hang in there, get yourself read for plan b, and don't be afraid to pull the trigger on it when it you feel yourself losing your love for her.

But, use all of your resources, to bring this affair to light. That includes friends and family. Ask their help in ending this A, and rebuilding the marriage, NOT in vilifying your W.

Must go. Do post on GQ when you get the chance you will receive more help as that is a more active section of MB.

God Bless,

JL

Hi Just Learning,

Stopped by the GQ section earlier in the day, and also once this evening during a break from reading SAA (for the second time tonight).

Your assessment is VERY accurate re. my LB. It is truly only through the advice and comfort from those here, reading Dr. H's books, and my promise to myself that I was going 100% with the MB program that I stagger on. As alluded to in my earlier posts, I believe that it is definitely self defeating to continue to monitor the conversations btwn WW and OM as they are rapidly destroying what little love and respect I'm trying to maintain for this woman. Although I'm familiar with the "fog talk" A's engage in, the hate and contempt displayed by her words toward me and our family are absolutely shocking!

Re. exposure…without tipping my hand, let me just say the fecal matter is REALLY going to hit the recirculating airfoil this weekend. It is NOT going to be pretty and the "fallout" is going to be intense (major Love Buster).

I am fully prepared for WW's step two (which is her moving out), as after reading SAA it is the only way that she is going to come to her senses. I seriously doubt that she will seek the professional help that (I now believe) she so desperately needs, and because she has absolutely alienated EVERYONE that has ever cared for her, I'm afraid that if I'm not there to pick up the pieces that she'll literally self-destruct. No matter how badly she's treated/treating me, I can't allow that to happen.

<small>[ July 06, 2004, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: Ron53 ]</small>

Well, some WS's get really ugly, but that is just her guilt. See if you can do Plan A for awhile longer.

Also are you making any changes? Did she have any complaints? I know it seems unfair that the BS should make all the effort, but that is the way it is.

Stick with us, and we will get you through this. You will start feeling better, I promise you.

Hi believer,

As previously advised, am Plan "A"ing in the "whisper mode" (subtle, not obvious, looking for opportunities as they present themselves). Absolutely, NO LBs (swallowing lots of $h*t - but can handle it).

"Are you making and changes?" - change insofar as day-to-day familial relations (duaghters/grandchildren) has been inevitable considering the "harsh feeling" (neither daughter is happy re. the betrayal, oldest daughter is absolutely livid and has not dealt well with the situation). As for myself - reading & re-reading HNHN & SAA, seeking guidance here, taking time for introspection re. myself. One measure that has seemed to help has been a greatly expanded exercise regimen. The physical exertion helps to "bleed off steam" (need that ALOT), and the endorphins released REALLY help. The downside is that I've worn out a set of tires on the bike, on my second pair of running shoes, and my clothes (at least shirts) no longer fit. Too bad WW isn't into "seasoned hunk's"...(mandatory injection of humor)

One thing that did occur to me last night while reading through the MB archives, the basic script followed by BS is so similar that I find the old cliche "for warned is for armed" very apropos. With much clearer vision (if we can clear our own "fog") and this insight into what "play" their team might call next, I definitely find it helping take some of the sting out of their actions.

At this point, nothing surprises me any more...

Just let me add something now...

However well intended DO NOT tell me that "everything happens for a reason" (WW's favorite saying). If I hear that lame excuse one more time I'll explode!

Ron,

As you know humans are funny creatures. You can plug them into a wall socket and the mind will make a tune out of the 60 cycle hum. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Further, you can make "reasons" for anything, but understanding them is a whole other matter.

Actually, there is a reason for her behavior, she has decided to act this way. That is the reason.

I am glad you are going to expose this mess, and that you are keeping a sense of humor about it. That is a powerful weapon.

I hope you can help your children through this. I know they are deeply hurt, but learning some compassion at a time like this is a good thing.

Meanwhile hang in there, if she decides to move out, it will very likely be time for plan B. Prepare yourself, by starting on the plan B letter. Post it here for review. It is a subtle love letter, but it can be effective in explaining what and why you are doing what you are doing.

Hang in there and God Bless,

JL

Ron -

UG - I hate that - "Everything happens for a reason". Puleez, give me a break. Lots of things happen for no reason.

However, I think you (like me) will find comfort here. When you start reading here, and see that they all say the same things (like word for word), and do the same things, you start feeling better.

This is not necessarily about you, but about her. Keep reading. You will see the same thing, over and over. After awhile, you will be able to predict what will happen next.

So keep your spirits up.

Well it is a new month, so I thought I'd update my situation...

It's been two weeks since WW quit going off to be with her "lover" (that has to be good - I guess). During this time, I've attempted to determine "what went wrong" in our marriage. In short, LOTS!

Seems that my original assessment that only STARTING OVER was going to work this time, was prophetically accurate. NOTHING I've believed about our M and R is true! The adultery and infidelity spans 25 of our 32 years of marriage...friends that I thought were...aren't, values that I thought we shared...were not, the love and devotion I thought we shared...obviously not. NOTHING is as it has seemed!

While I SEE this woman I married, I find that I don't really KNOW this person. This soul I thought I had bonded with for life and thru "better or worse", I now believe has no soul. This heart, I thought I understood (and loved), I now find out is dark, mysterious, and unknown. At this point, I really don't know what in my life with this woman was real and what wasn't! To say that my eyes have been opened, is a collosal understatement.

While I'm left with what may be "sloppy seconds", at least I'm left with something. Now I've got to determine what (or who) that something is. While Dr. H's books prepare and instruct us on how to repair a "broken" or "damaged" M, they (unfortunately) presume that at some point there was "something" in the relationship. Most refer to it as "the reason" two people got married in the first place. I don't know that I even have that!

The person I thought I loved does not exist. And the worst part is...has not existed in a long time...if ever. I'M IN LOVE WITH A PHANTOM.

And I thought this was all a nightmare, seems that I've been the one dreaming. If that be the case, I'm ready to go back to sleep...

Hello,

I am so sorry for your pain. I really have nothing
to say except that you know that these people were never your friends. I wish you luck whatever you decide.

Ron - What happened?

Hi Believer,

Well, the innocent young girl I met when we were young (we've known each other since we were teens)...really wasn't (probably didn't want me to think "less" of her) - no big deal, but the start of MANY lies. Seven years into our marriage, while I'm away on active duty, she gets pregnant with our bestman's baby and has an abortion! Never says a word to me...both of them keep this from me for 25 years. SHE KILLS OUR BABY...yes it's our baby. It's us, her and I. We're a team, a couple, what happens to one happens to both (or so I thought). If she's pregnant, we're having a baby...well not this time! She's frightened, ashamed, confused, whatever...she has an abortion. NO concern for what I may think or feel...she decides. How nice of her to make a decision like that for US!

My bio indicates EA's since '99, well in addition there have been at least 5 PA since that time. Only some were with "soulmates", others appear to be just "gratuitous sex". Questioning WW indicates that NOT ONCE was I, my feelings, or our marriage a consideration in her decision to "go for it" (as she so callously puts it).

And the "friends"...well you can imagine how I feel about "Mr. Bestman"! I've known him since I was 12, shared my youth with him, shared my home with him on multiple occasions (and for extended periods of time while he got himself "together"), and now I learn that in addition...I'VE SHARED MY WIFE!. Ain't I a swell f*&kin' guy. Then we have the other friends, actually they're more accurately enablers for WW "dalliances". They know, encourage, and cover for her while she sneaks away to do "the nasty" with these men. Oh, how well I remember their sweetness and sincerity when they told me they didn't understand what had gone wrong between ****** and I, all the while knowing that they had (and were) encouraging this behaviour. Small wonder they were unable to assist in resolving (what I thought) were my problems in the M. Hell no...they were/are part of the problem.

Somebody previously identified this "phenomenon" as serial adultery...yes, that's what I'm dealing with. A serial adulterer who has filled my life with lies. As I stated before...The person I thought I loved does not exist. And the worst part is...has not existed in a long time...if ever. I'M IN LOVE WITH A PHANTOM. .

Believer...I'd love to be a "believer"...It's just that I don't know WHAT to believe any more!

Ron - I am completely shocked. I know this must have been awful to find out about.

Is your wife remorseful about it?

"Is your wife remorseful about it?" - I DON'T KNOW - [I originally indicated NO, having mis-read your question as "feeling guilty" as opposed to "remorseful". They are two very different things. Your carefully crafted question deserved an accurate answer. Please accept my apology.]

WW is still "fog-bound" so most things she says are ignored (or at least taken with a grain of salt).

But hey, I'm in "Plan A" so no LB's...no angry outbursts, no disrespectful language, no disrespectful judgements, etc. I've simply turned myself numb and left everything in the (what I hope are) capable hands of the MB concepts.

I don't like what I've had to become to get through this, but I said "100%" just like I said "I do"...and I will until I pull my last breathe...

<small>[ August 02, 2004, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: Ron53 ]</small>

Ron - You have a good attitude. I know you must be stunned and hurt.

And the MB program does work. So don't give up.

Ron,

Ok, I have to ask. How did you find out all of this information? Who told you? If it was WW, why did she tell you this now?

Given all of this what is your thinking? Do you want this marriage to remain? Does she give any indication that she wants the marrige and is willing to get rid of OM? What do your children think of this?

It seems to me that many things are much clearer now, but what are your feelings concerning various courses of action?

Look forward to hearing from you.

God Bless,

JL

"How did you find out all of this information?" WW
"why did she tell you this now? - shrug

Some background...from my journal dated 7/16 - [journal]***** returned tonight (actually she was home when I arrived). Said during the drive she asked for an answer & that she was told she would receive it when she arrived home. (She always spends (spent) Thursday & Friday with OM)
Unable to explain what may have swayed her or how she arrived @ her decision, but she agreed to consider "starting over". As part of the "process", ***** opened up a bit and revealed "skeletons" from the past - (edit out all the gory details)
What a terrible burden for ***** to carry for all these years!!! My heart broke more for HER than for US!
I hope the healing can finally begin![/journal]

I found out after the fact, that WW had sat at the computer that evening and the MB website was minimized on the toolbar. Didn't think that I had left it minimized when I left for work that morning, but I didn't question how or why. The bottom line is that she opened the window and read THIS THREAD. She said that's when she knew. She had her answer. (shrug)

"What do your children think of this? - they know about current A's only. Everything else will be carried to our graves!

There is only one course of action...I TOOK THIS WOMAN AS MY WIFE FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE. MY WORD IS MY BOND!

Ron:

I read your saga-------- My sympathies are with you. I know exactly how you feel when you say, “I don’t know this woman”. It is a terrible sensation and then one wonders whether this is merely the tip of the iceberg. I even look at my five kids checking for my traits (nose, eyes, ect). I have never asked my wife about other Pas. As far as I know she waited 30 years before having sex with another man, but I will never be 100% sure.

If you don’t mind I will offer slightly different advice, however, it is all based on my experience. After D-day my wife was terrified of a divorce. The idea of leaving the marriage was not in the equation. She was very adamant about keeping the marriage. However, this was all in the shock of the aftermath. I then told her what are we going to tell the kids if we separate and she went nuts. The idea of any of our kids finding out she was unfaithful is frightening to her. She even told me she would rather kill herself than to face her kids. My initial approach to her was “I am divorcing you, I cannot accept this”. Of course as I was saying this I realized it is not easy to separate at age 53 and start all over again. In any event she seemed very responsive and cut all ties with OM. So one wonders if being tough plays a role in this situations.

As the weeks went by I became a door-mat and suddenly she wanted to call the OM and even proposed that it was OK for her to see him every once in a while. Along the way I said nasty things about OM and she hated it. Now I am back to being more in control and have advised her that zero contact is the only way. She has now realized that her withdrawal will only go away after zero contact. I am lucky because the OM lives 2,000 miles away. However, your case is different and she wants the OM; in this instance I might consider to let her go. BTW, that is what I told my wife when she expressed desires for the OM. I told her she had only seen him in hotel rooms to have sex and the rest of the relationship was on the phone and by internet. I advised her that she was only dealing with a fantasy and that she was completely missing the ugly side of OM. For some reason she understood these words and is now more cooperative.

I hope everything works out for you, but don’t forget that there are plenty of women in their 40s who are looking for good men in their early 50s------- you have options! Make sure she knows!

Hi Stanley,

I'm certain that, in retrospect, my WW would also prefer that our girls not know about her current infidelity. When WW initially claimed her desire for D, she proposed NOT telling our girls the truth, and desired that we use the old "your dad and I have simply grown apart" lie. Initially I bought into this deception, but that only lasted about a day when it ocurred to me that when (not if) the truth really came out (and it most certainly would have), I would have been the one left with answering the "why" to their complaints about the deception. Instead, I made it clear to both of them EXACTLY why their mother was filing for divorce.

As might be expected, this news was not taken well as neither suspected WW was having affair. And were particularly upset when they learned of three previous "dalliances". Our oldest daughter is particularly upset and still avoids contact with her mother (which is very distressing for everyone - especially our grand-children).

For myself, I never viewed Plan "A" as having anything to do with being a "doormat", but believe that I was one considering the scorn shown to me while she was still f*&king OM (I still have the "soiled" panties she so graciously left for me to find as evidence of this)! Luckily, once OM "chickened out", WW LB re-opened and those Plan "A" deposits began to accumulate (and actually draw "interest").

Amazingly (and I am perplexed by this), I've seen NO evidence of withdrawal...which, of course, makes me very curious re. the innner (mental) workings of WW. I almost wish it weren't quite so easy for her to simply switch allegiances. Only time and counseling will serve (I hope) to explain some of this.

re. "plenty of women in their 40s who are looking for good men..." well, I guess my response to that (at least from current vantage point) is fool me once, shame on you...fool me twice, shame on me

Hi Ron

you know. I would be concerned about your WW non withdrawal issues taking into account her previous A's.
Look I dont know enough of MB to know what to do about it but have you thought of contacting one of the Harleys by phone and getting some professional advice?
I mean her behaviour is not 'normal' WW behaviour and I wonder if left untreated or whatever you would like to call it you are just setting yourself up for another episode??

I mean it is a bit unusual isn't it. There might be some deep seated reasons that need to be addressed.
Just a thought Ron

Oh by the way, my skinning knives are so sharp its a pity the OMs in another state. 'sigh' well I can dream cant I