Believe it or not, some dudes can keep it in their pants even when they are alone with a woman. Sometimes some dudes can even enjoy shooting the sh#t in the company of a woman without wanting to bed her. Believe it or not. Really.

I believe it! Thank god someone said that because I was beginning to think that my male friend was gay or just blind....There are good men out there that can be good friends with a woman and know that that's all it will be...& don't secretly desire yah either. At least I feel that way about my good friend. Like a brother...and I'm his sis...nothing more EVER & he knows my unselfish love for my H if he ever overstepped his boundries he'd know that the friendship would be over & he'd be walking home w/ a beat red face <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

EDIT:
did I mention... IF he could walk home w/ throbbing CAHOENAS (humm think that's how yah spell it) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ! I have no respect for men/woman that go after married men/woman. I just let a male friend of my H and I's go because he was insinuating being with me...(we only hung out w/ other friends around...I couldn't believe it...they had to bring it to my attention that he has a "thing" for me! He continues to text message me...duh..I'm not responding...If I tell him exactly what I think...I'm pretty sure he won't ever like a woman that even remotely looks like me ever again...hate to be harsh but sometimes you have to. Betrayal is a b****!

<small>[ July 28, 2004, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Finding_Clarity ]</small>

Comfort,,,
(Quote)
Do you ever wonder why it is USUALLY the woman who has male friends.
I was not stating it is a fact that no male has a true Female companion. I know I worded that a little condecending.
The statistics are far greater for a female to have a true male friend than a male having a true girl friend.

It would be ludicris for me to say that NO MAN has true girl friends. Unless I knew every man on the planet,, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .
You also stated you are not in the least attracted to your female companion, that is definately why she is a true friend. It would take no attraction for you and her to remain on the friend level.
Can you say that you have never been attracted to another woman?
More than likely you have at one time or another.
Could you have been just friends with that woman?
Not doubting your commitment, but the fact is you have remained faithful because you have not put yourself in a situation to be unfaithful.
There are other men who have tried to be just a friend to a friend of thier spouse. They were attracted to the wifes friend from the moment of being introduced.
Now why would you risk an affair with a wifes friend? Deep down wouldnt you know it would be discovered? The man and the woman would have to be put in some situation to ignite the affair. Maybe just a harmless trip to the store together.
Affairs are initiated that quickly. Do you agree?

Eric:

I will try to respond to some of your questions.

You said <strong> I was not stating it is a fact that no male has a true Female companion. </strong>

In fact you did say so:
<strong> We men only have girl friends that we are intimately involved with or plan to be intimately involved with.</strong>

I wrote to address this statement. I do have a woman friend. I would no sooner bed her than I would my buddy Bob. Ick.

<strong> Can you say that you have never been attracted to another woman? </strong>

No I couldn’t say that. I see woman all the time that I am attracted to . . . I don’t pursue friendships with them though.

Obviously, if you are sexually attracted to someone other than your spouse you probably shouldn’t befriend them. Can you be friendly, say “Hi, how is your day going?”? Sure. Should you become golfing buddies . . . probably not a smart move.

I guess the “safest” thing to do is to blind our spouses and leave them bound in the closet. I kind of like my wife’s eyes so that is out for me.

<small>[ July 29, 2004, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>

Hi, EricI Hi Forum! Eric, I love reading your posts. I'd like not to believe everything you've said about most men and their motives, but I tend to think your probably right. So, I'd llike the Forum's feedback on a couple of things. As I stated in another post, my friendships with male coworkers in the workplace have always felt "safe" because I am not attracted to them. After reading Dr. Harley's Love Bank theory, it seems that even someone that you do not find at all attractive could become very attractive to you if they make enough deposits in your Love Bank. Is this right? So, really anyone could "fall off the wagon" and into an affair with anyone else. That's all the reason I need to steer clear of friendships with the opposite sex.Has anyone ahd a spouse (or themselves) fallen in an EA/PA with someone they didn't initally find attractive? Also, what do you do about people you do find yourself attracted to? We are all "married, not dead". My response is to avoid any personal interaction with men I think are attractive. It's not that I don't trust myself, because I've never been unfaithful. I just don't see the point of complicating things by possibly creating a comprimising situation. Since many of us here are committed to our marriages and working in environments with people of the opposite sex, I'd like to read posts from others who find themselves attracted to people outside their marriage. How do you handle that? Looking forward to reading more posts on this subject......

We men only have girl friends that we are intimately involved with or plan to be intimately involved with.

comfort,,, yes that statement was made like I was speaking for every man. I realize that.

Let me correct myself by saying "most men"

It would probably be better to speak from just my feelings..... Lets say I had a female companion who was just a fishing buddy,,, I think that just the fact we had something in common and liked to do together would be an emotional attraction. I would think she is such a unique woman, or at least one of the few. By myself feeling a since of envy for her it could lead to stronger emotions for her.
Harley states under recreational fullfillment/ activities should never be done with someone of the opposite sex. Why? Comfort.. are you not proof there can be recreational activities with your female friend that remain harmless?

I think Harley says what he says because he believes there are no faithful people in this world. There are only Marriages that have been affair proof.
I think Harley has seen tons of affairs start between 2 people who allways considered themselves friends. It is just safe to avoid friends of the opposite sex, especially ones you do recreational activities with. Are there exceptions? Sure. People live different lifestyles people are different. MB is simply a guide to avoid getting caught up in an affair.

Kaylee,,,

If my wife and I are fishing or motorcycling and she is doing this with me,, YES, she is depositing love bank deposits. We are having fun together. No matter what we are doing,, what activity if we are doing it together then we are both making deposits in each others love banks.

How do you think my wife was unfaithful? She was doing rec activities with another man even if it was dancing and partying he was doing it with her.
He made love deposits. If I would have been the one dancing and partying with her I would have made love deposits.

Harley also says if there is something one spouse enjoys that another does not then the activity should be avoided. Me an my wife have to find the things we both enjoy doing. There are plenty of them we just have to do them together. Camping, skiing, dinner out, walking,,,, I could not list them all. They are there. Making time to do them is where the challenge is, babysitters, time off from work, everyday chores, financial situation. All of these can prohibit our enjoyable activities.
The mistake I made was thinking we both should not have to suffer. I will watch the kids while she has fun and she will watch the kids while I have fun. As a result we did not have much fun together. It became a routine. We were wide open for an affair,, we kinda rolled the dice one to many times and we finally crapped out.
I could not have learned how my wifes affair happened without reading and understanding where our marriage was vulnerable. It took an affair to open my eyes and my wifes eyes as well.

Hi Kaylee, Eric, et. al.,

I've also read Dr. H's book(s) and believe that the basic premise that "anyone is susceptible" to an affair is probably "painting with too broad a stroke", I believe VERY STRONGLY that it boils down to individual scruples (moral character, if you will). I will not presume to speak for anyone other than myself, but for myself...in 32 years of marriage, 10 years of active military duty (w/> 50% overseas), and 25 years in the civilian work force - in other words, I've been to the "land of temptation"; I never once considered breaching my marital vows. Does that make me a saint? Hell no. Does that mean I have no character flaws? No, again (am now and have been, a "work in progress"). What it does mean, is that I GAVE MY WORD TO SOMEONE (ww) and (for me), that means something!

I asked my WW last evening what her "feelings" were the first time she was with one of her "partners". She really wasn't able to provide an answer. So I asked whether she felt "odd" being with someone outside of our marriage. To this she responded..."no, I just went for it." I don't/won't presume to understand the mindset of WSs, nor do I desire to start another "pis**ng contest", but I JUST DON'T GET IT!

I'm not much into tatoos, but I swear I am going to have those words permanently etched somewhere...I JUST DON'T GET IT! (anyone care to explain...I've become a VERY good listener)

Eric,

O.K. I'm not telling you, or anyone else, to go ahead and have a friend of the opposite sex. I'm just saying that I have one and we are not interested in bumping uglies. It just is not a possibility . . . she is not attractive at all. She looks like a boy really, and an ugly one at that. She is also a lot older that I, and I’m a lot older than you, smokes like a fiend, etc. Would I have a fishing buddy that was a babe . . . no way. There is a distinction I am making here.

Sometimes a good idea can take on a life of its own. Should a woman not have a priest for a friend? Would he only be after this woman's body? Maybe they just like to discuss God, or play chess.

If you want perfect protection from an affair, castrate yourself, talk to no one, never bathe, and don’t go anywhere without you spouse. There has to be some amount of trust in a relationship or what is the point. I want to be my wife’s husband not her jailor.

Ron,,

You were raised with the belief in keeping your marital vows, you hold them true, and yes that is a great quality to posess in a mariage.
Your wife married a strong moral Man.

I also held this true,, I allways told myself there is nothing in this world I would risk my marriage for. It ment something to me,, it was my most sacred commitment in life.


I could not understand why my wife did not have the same morals. No matter what was wrong she committed adultery... thats all I could think about. It drove me crazy...
You know what I discovered?
I was also not fully committed to my vows like I had allways believed.
No matter what happens I should remain faithful right?
Well after my wifes affair, a month later I had a one night stand. So now I was no better than her.
She betrayed,,, I in return took revenge to purposely hurt her. I was weak, weather it was a result of my current feelings or not,, I was in fact capable.
You ask didnt it feel "odd" only after I felt my own hurt did it feel "odd". I had a ONS and I knew I made a bad choice,, I do not want to feel that way again.
It had me asking my wife,,,, I had a ONS and I couldnt stand myself and I regreted it,, didnt you feel this way after your first sexual experience with the OM? She responded by saying "I am not as strong as you,,,, I felt bad yes but OM assured me I was justified for my actions he took the guilt away.
Did this satisfy my reasoning,,, NO.
All I say is that people are different,,, one spouse may not hold as high of morals as the other. Like you said,,, tough to try to understand the WS as long as you also know you are not feeling the same emotions.
I know I will never receive full gratification for how my wife made her decision, but knowing my marriage was open for her to have to make that decision has helped me alot.

Comfort,,
I fully get what you are saying and I understand that you are sincere about your feelings.

Its about knowing how you feel.
If my wife says I am going to play bingo with TOM. Even if TOM is the nastiest man I had ever seen, I would respond by saying: I would perfer that just you and me go. If for some reason I was not able to go I would definately let her know I do not approve of my wife doing recreational activities with another man. I would ask her to call a girlfriend. I would try to make her understand that I do not want to be substituted in any way by anybody. Am I a jeolous man,,, You bet. Did my wifes affair occur because I trusted her to make good decisions? Yea buddy. Has she proved she was never capable of making the right decisions? Certainly.
Heck I let my wife go hunting with another man once. I could not go,, I was invited but I had to work. The thing is,,,, this kind of behavior caused all of the hurt in our marriage.
My wife would not ever ask me if I would let her go to a club or somewhere with another man. She no longer trusts herself, she does not want an affair to happen again. We now make every effort to do things together, screw that thinking "I need time away" I need to be by myself. I only need my wife and my kids. Ill fish with my wife Ill hunt with my wife, if she doesnt enjoy it then we will learn to do the things we both enjoy.
Thats not what I would call keeping her locked down, thats what I call commitment to your spouse above any other friend. That is one way of definately affair proofing a marriage.
Not that it applies to you or anyone else. We have different needs we are different people, and we live different lifestyles. I was happy with my lifestyle before the affair I felt I had the best wife in the world, but I was on auto pilot. The marriage was just a marriage I did my things she did her things,, it was a mistake. Not that if you do this your marriage will definately be hit with an affair,, but it is the reason mine was. I will not let it happen again. If I go fishing the first person I am asking is my wife to go, if she does not go then It will be just me and my children.

Hi,All! Ron, thank you for sharing your story with us; I'm so sorry about your W's EA/PA. I'm going to attempt to help you "get it" eventhough I have not been unfaithful, and to my knowledge, my H hasn't been, either. I think that there was a progression of events that transpired that allowed your wife to, as she says, (rather callously, might I add..)to "go for it". Through the course of her initial "friendship", then growing EA, she crossed many boundaries that enabled her to "take the leap" into a physical affair. Actually, it wasn't a leap at all, she has made a series of baby steps that easily brought her to a PA. Every personal conversation was a sharing of intimacy that should have been reserved for you.it eventually Ultimately there was touching, (maybe starting out as a supportive hug or a kiss goodbye), and then the final line is crossed (rather easily)and they become lovers. Sadly, under the "right" circumstances, we are all vunerable.We just can never allow ourselves (as you and I haven't) to be tempted. Well, I hope that helps illuminate things for you, Ron. I'm very sorry for your marriage problems, you sound like a very good man. I wish you all the best.

Hi Kaylee,

"CALLOUS'...good choice of words. I used just that term in my journal this A.M. Your observation re. "progression" is probably very accurate when it comes to EA/PAs, and I'm certain that with each "dalliance" those "steps" became easier. I guess that what baffles me is how you can BS (and I don't mean betrayed spouse) yourself enough to "go there"! As adults, we know enough not to stick our hands in a fire, not to pick up a rattlesnake, not to jump out of a fourth story window, but some people walk straight into infidelity.

[rant]
You want perplexed? Here's perplexed...seven years into a marriage you allow yourself to get pregnant with your husband's bestman...and have an abortion. Poor H's on active duty 1000 miles away at the time. H's oblivious to all this for 25 years!!!

I can't scream this loud enough...I JUST DON'T GET IT!
[/rant]

my saga

Hi (again) Kaylee,

You asked..."Since many of us here are committed to our marriages and working in environments with people of the opposite sex, I'd like to read posts from others who find themselves attracted to people outside their marriage. How do you handle that?"

At the risk of being blunt, I've found that JUST SAYING NO works great! Been saying that for years.

integrity: firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values

Hi all, over the years and two marriages, I have to say that for those who are in a committed relationship and want to fool around, it happens, more easily with alcohol, drugs or whatever, but it happens all the time. When I was in my first marriage (to a sexual addict/predator), I stayed committed for the children, but eventually partied too when I know it was over. In future relationships, I had mutual male friends, but never strayed. When at work, I only confided in female coworkers and kept male coworkers at arm's length - the ONLY safe solution to a potential problem. Now, since my husband had a EA (I am told) last year, I have insisted he not have female friends (business or otherwise). He thinks I am silly of course. But he is so outgoing socially, it's easy for him to befriend women. What to do?

Hi, All! Jannie and Ron, I don't know about the rest of this forum, but I feel like Betrayed Spouses are entitled to expect a complete severing of all ties (ie,"no contact") from not only the OM/OW, but any opposite sex friend that the BS feels is a threat to the marriage. Am I right, or what? Any WS that resists such a request, would make me seriously question their commitment. If I had made such a transgression, and then decided that I wanted to stay with my H, I'd be working "doubletime" to prove myself and regain trust. "Forsaking all others..." would be the easy part, I promise you that. I'd like to read what other people think about this..

Janine,,, Kay,,

From the BS point of view I would definately say Kaylee is right on!
The sense of insecurity is so strong from the BS we feel that we need to remove any possible threats to the marriage.
You can never pick and choose your spouses friends. It is better to let the WS know it is how you feel and it is necessary for complete recovery. Simply ask the WS if he or she can accept and respect the way you feel.
Once betrayed the BS will consider any Opposit sex friend a threat to the M. This is especially so if the WS allways claimed the OP was just a friend, which they usually do. It takes a strong commitment from both sides to repair a marriage.
It is easy for me to weigh a friend and my wife. My wife definately takes priority in my life. Friends are great. I mean who is your best friend in the world? I may say my best friend is Brad, but the truth is my wife is my best friend.
To give an example: Several years back I was hanging out with a good friend at another friends house. Well my good friend got on his cell and made a phone call,,,, a little while later a woman shows up at the door to see him. This woman is not his wife. We were in shock,, he called his other woman over like it was no problem.
I told my wife about this. Her response was I dont want you hanging out with a man like that,,, you may start to feel like having an affair. Did I feel untrusted? YES. I told wife my friend is not me and I know he is screwing up. But the fact was my wife considered him a threat to our marriage. If I was ever hanging out with him she was insecure,, I thought what was more important,, Hanging out with a long time friend or respecting my wifes feelings? I quit hanging around that friend at my wifes request.
Some people say "spouses come and go but friends are there forever" to me it is that kind of thought that damages a marriage. Once you are at the alter and saying your vows reflect on what you are promising your partner. You are promising that no one comes before the spouse. He or she has priority over all others in your life. So when your spouse is threatened by a friend and wants to express thier concern, remember your vows and what you swore before God.

Coworkers can be the most deceiving kind of friends, if you want to call them friends! The workplace is the best place for a deceitful spouse to have an affair. I know. I am the product of one that went on for months right before my eyes and family. OW was husband's ex-secretary. She had numerous affairs before. My H was her next victim and he didn't have the guts to walk away. H had just lost his job as president of a company and she fed him all the lines he wanted to hear. I was behind him when he lost his job and worked sometimes 12 hrs. a day for extra money. However, his time was spent with OW, including our money. This finally blew up after our daughter's wedding reception. I held on so my daughter's day wouldn't be ruined. I thought that was the right thing to do. However, now, I would have exposed their A before the reception because I would have at least been able to look at the pictures and not been exposed to the two of them - yes OW came to our daughter's reception with her husband because of their ongoing A - dancing together in front of everyone. The OW was the ultimate ***** - willing to destroy anything in her way. Unfortunately, she lost. During this time we were moving to another state, I was training my replacement and planning my daughter's reception, while my H pretended he was faithful. A cell phone which I purchased for H to receive job offers was used to call OW - OW called him from 11-31 times per day and during all of this pretended to be my friend. What a joke!!!

I would advise anyone if you see a red flag, act on it immediately, no matter what the consequences. Always having to go to your former place of employment to have your ex-secretary make copies for you is just an excuse!! Lunches, conferences for sex, all an excuse!! Dancing with co-workers of the opposite sex - always an excuse!! Emailing - flirting on the internet - always an excuse. And never go drinking with anyone, but your spouse - always an excuse!! She was an alcoholic and drinking made the A for my H easier.

Going on 8 months in recovery has been hell - yes I decided to stay because I loved H and he did show remorse after I exposed everything. His grown daughters have gone through hell and back. We have both lost a lot of weight, many sleepless nights, crying for days, loss of self-esteem and confidence for me.

A wonderful marriage counselor has helped us, but most of the work is on a day-to-day basis. Friends and family have backed us. I still have setbacks, but my H continues to tell me every day - many times - how much he loves me and how sorry he is for everything. Depression is part of my every day life now. Smiling doesn't come easy for me anymore - it always did before. I was too trusting of my H - your typical nice guy, naive and quiet. OW told me I was crazy, however that has backfired for OW.

We will work on this hurt for the rest of our lives. I am looking forward to the day I can wake up with a smile on my face and not have the A on my mind.

Don't ever think affairs cannot happen with friends or in the workplace! Take it from me - it is a breeding ground for pain and destruction. If I can help just one person learn from my extreme pain, I can at least feel good about that.

JLight <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi, JLight! I am so sorry to hear of your husband's affair. I know that hurt (and continues to hurt) you very deeply. I'm glad you've sought counseling, and it appears that your H is trying to make things better, which is a good thing. I also understand your anger at the OW, and I can't blame you for that! She does sound like and absolute b****! I just got from the tone of your posting that you hold her largely responsible for the affair. (You did refer to your husband as her next "victim") I don't want to offend you, but I just want to point out that it was your H who violated his marriage vow, and broke his commitment to you. He married you, she's a 3rd party. Clearly she's cold, calculating and zero'd in on your H to initiate the A, but he entered that relationship of his own free will. I'm only saying this because I think that putting responsibility where it belongs (with your H) will go a long way to helping your marriage recover. I'm also really glad you posted your experience, because it shows how predatory the OM/OW can be in pursuing a H or W. It sickens me that this OW would have the nerve to show up at your daughter's wedding! Has she no conscience? Of course, she doesn't, or she would not be ruining people's lives the way she has. What "goes around comes around" I promise you that. Well, she didn't get her way and end your marriage, thankfully! JL, you should "wake up with a smile" because, you won, she's not with your H., and your marriage is still intact. My prayers are with you; good luck!

Kaylee: OK..My turn! Sort of threadjacking here..but the two threads (really, any thread is woven into each other and why i *love* weaver's name! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )..are much the same topic.

You were interested in my story--which I'm certain is not unique on MB. But, you haven't told us much about your sit. What "made" you come here? I know you had the original question about co-workers, but it "seems" (hate that word!) you wouldn't be seeking to fix a M just with your question. Should I put my crow bar away? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Hi, LINY! Yes, you can put the crow bar away; I'm "wide open" and ready to spill my guts. I came to MB a few weeks ago when I was websurfing. I had read through parts of Dr. H's "His Needs, Her Needs" and wanted to check this site, and here I stay. Anyway, I've been married for almost 17 years, I have a daughter, age 16 and a son who's almost 12. We have just emerged from a very rocky part of our marriage. Our marriage problems were not infidelity, but my H had some issues with anger management and depression, and in response, I had distanced myself, become depressed, and lost almost 30 lbs. I had shut down to the point where I just wanted to run away. We went to an MC, my H was put on a mild antidepressant, and we seem to be back on track, Thank God! Anyway, I just returned to work after 18 years, (I was married and had my daughter just out of college, so I never really worked with men)and that's where the question of opposite sex friendships came from. It's all pretty new to me, and since my sister's H and sister in law's H have both recently been found to have P/A's with women they've worked with, the issue has really "hit home", so to speak. I check out these forums everyday because it is a wonderful source of support. Feel free to ask any other questions you may have. I always look forward to reading (and responding to)the posts!

Kaylee - Thanks for your response. Don't get me wrong - I DO hold my husband responsible for the affair. I have told him from the beginning he should have had the guts to walk away. No one forced hime to lie, cheat and lead a double life - he did that all on his own. What hurts the most is he through his marriage vows away and pretended I was dead.

The OW is the lowest form of life I have every met! I made the call to her H and his answer was he already knew. He said there never was any love in his marriage. By his acceptance of her former affairs, he set himself up for more hurt. I have tried to help him in the beginning, but don't have the enery to now. I know she will get hers in the end. We actually went out on social occasions with that filth! Her new boss is aware of her past - I have good friends.

Thank you for caring and answering my post. I wonder if my sadness will ever go away. I try everyday, but haven't been successful yet.

JLight