aussie,

I have been reading this thread and am a little confused. How long have you known about the A? How long did the A last? Has she severed contact with OM?

As I read you post I get the impression your W is a bit like one of my favorite posters here. Her name is/was SKM and she posted a "chronicles" of her first year after her A. I think you might profit from reading it, because it offers a possible time line and how she was thinking and feeling as this went along. If it seems to fit your W, you might show it to her and discuss it. Just click on bookmarked section SKM's Chronicles

I also think your W is having a hard time believing that you can forgive her and she is making it harder for you to do that by not telling you what you need to know. I am guessing but I suspect it is because she feels she "deserves" to be divorced by you.

Now if this is the case and you do NOT want to divorce her, it is time you addressed yourself to her "defenses". She has them up and she is guarding them constantly, what you need to do is get around her defenses. Learn to talk with her in a way that does NOT attack her and cause her to raise her defenses.

Read SKM's chronicles and you can see how the thinking can go askew. You need information in order to forgive AND you need information in order to improve yourself and the marriage. She is lumping your questions into one thing you are looking for ammunition. She feels great anger and she may even be shifting some of that anger toward you, rather than herself. Why? Well, anger is a secondary emotion that is driven by the primary ones such as: fear, pain, guilt, etc.

Is it possible to ask her how YOU can improve to make the marriage better? Is it possible to ask for HER forgiveness for things you failed to do to protect her? Is it possible to ask for HER help in being a better father and husband?

I see this as sort of dealing with a noodle. Sometimes it is much easier to pull it, than push it. The main issue is: has it been cooked.

If you ask these questions you are sort of pulling her along by having her discuss something that is connected to her but is NOT about her. You become the person that needs help and guidance and you also begin to show her how to ask you for the same.

You are trying to lead by example. You are opening yourself up. Often times the WS has even more fears than the BS, because they know they failed and they feel they KNOW how you will react. She is making a Disrespectful Judgement, DJ. It is one of the more deadly LB's because it often is not recognized as an LB.

Just some things to think about. I look forward to hearing your answers.

God Bless,

JL

JL

just been adding up the weeks. Hard to believe that a 'few' weeks is actually 15 weeks today, when I had by leg broken by a drunk driver...my doesn't time fly when you are having fun.What alovely Monday it was!!

How long was the A..I don't know she wont say yet. When was it, again no exact time but I assume it can be no later then 3 months before she told me as the OM & his wife 'suddenly' moved to another state then. So I again have to assume it happened before that for how long????

thats why I am so frustrated about this. She tells me she had an A, very sorry blah blah blah I love you, will never happen again...... but no details when I ask other than it was with X.

Of course I didn't respond in the nicest way, I couldn't just take off because I was immobilised for 6 weeks in plaster up to my armpits..and wonder if that was why she admitted it at that time because of that... which in hindsight doesn't really matter except I stewed on it a lot more.

The rest I'm going to have to read and think on before replying JL.....

Aussie,

I look forward to hearing your thoughts on these matters. By the way, where are you from "Down Under". I presume by your name that is where you are from, but if not let me know.

JL

Aussie: Some excerpts from an article I wrote about recovery for an on-line magazine that are related to learning to communicate better with my wife. What may not be clear from the quote is just how much my wife and I were really speaking different languages, and it was only with great effort that I learned... no, "am still learning" to understand her: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Wednesday morning October 3rd, in tears, with great humility and remorse, she told me that she had been unfaithful and was not worthy to be my wife...

...My immediate reaction, ...was to ask the question: “Why?” Why had she done this? Why had she hurt me so? Why had she betrayed her (our) most deeply-held religious beliefs? Why had she put our family and our health at risk? Why did she tell me she loved me almost every day of those last three years? How could she? Why hadn’t God answered my prayers for our marriage?
In answer to my questions, she told me: “We have a good marriage. It wasn’t about you, it wasn’t about him and it wasn’t about sex.” Those statements seemed ludicrous to me. But, it was partly curiosity about what those words meant that kept me around. My wife is a very intelligent woman. I didn’t understand how she could really believe what she had just said. My dominant thought was probably that she was lying to herself. But, I had a sneaking suspicion somewhere in the back of my head that there was something I had missed - something I didn’t understand about those words. Part of recovery was for me to find out what was true about them, and for her to find out what was false.

...Fortunately, one of the first things we did after she told me was to order “Surviving an Affair” by Dr. Willard Harley. To drastically over-simplify things, it takes the approach that affairs are symptoms of problems in your marriage, and to recover from an affair you need to fix the marriage. We quickly learned how to improve our marriage by doing the included exercises (in my opinion it is a great book, but not worth the cover price UNLESS YOU DO THE EXERCISES). When we took steps to change how we treated each other based on what we learned, the immediate changes in our relationship were pretty dramatic. That wasn’t the whole answer, but it was a great start. We also made an appointment with a marriage counselor right away.

...The first “Why?” discussion was the day she confessed, and started when I asked a question something like (read the capital letters as shouting, though I was probably close to shouting the whole time): “HOW could you LIE to me by telling me you loved me all the time?” and she answered, probably in tears just based on my tone of voice: “I cared about you”. Since this was very early on (maybe even the day she confessed) and I was definitely not in control, I continued to rant on about how she “must not have cared VERY MUCH”, and that she “KNEW that is not what I thought she meant when she said those words, since we had talked about my view of love extensively in the past, and she was just doing it to COVER UP HER AFFAIR”. Despite that kind of start, I managed to get control of my anger and disrespect during those discussions. If I hadn’t, they could not have continued, because the guilt and shame my wife felt for what she had done made going back to those experiences very painful even without my berating her.

Despite getting control over my outward expressions of anger, what I learned made me extremely hurt, angry, frustrated and at times, fearful. I spent hours (usually lying awake at night) stewing over what she had said, frequently getting angrier and angrier. I would sleep 3 hours or less per night for days at a time, become exhausted, get one good night of sleep, and then repeat a series of short nights. I lost about 18 pounds in two months (no, I don’t recommend the “infidelity diet”). This was the “emotional rollercoaster” that every betrayed spouse rides. I had good days, and bad days. But, with that first discussion, somewhere in the back of my brain a dim light began to glow. That glow was the realization that some words meant different things to her than to me. The emotionally charged discussions about the affair were not necessarily the best place to figure this out, because I had repeated episodes of spending days stewing and losing sleep over something she said, only to find out that what those words meant to her were perfectly sensible, not what I thought they meant, and not something I should get upset about. At some point, I started expecting that there was something I had not understood correctly whenever I started getting angry with her.

This realization that I was misunderstanding her was EXTREMELY important to recovery, and not just because it helped me deal with my anger. It prompted me to do more exploring in ALL my conversations with her, and that led us to better understanding each other, which helped lead us to greater intimacy on all levels. My conversations showed more interest in her, which helped her feel like she was important to me, and loved for who she REALLY was, not just who I thought she was. This is now a part of how we stay emotionally connected. The other thing I realized somewhere along the way, probably because of what I read in Gary Smalley’s book “If Only He Knew”, was that sometimes it is not the meaning of the words that is important, it is the feelings behind those words. So some of my exploring of what she says was not about the meaning of the words as much as about what she was feeling. This has been a powerful way for me to improve our communication. It’s helped a lot in communicating with my kids, too.

...Understanding each other better has also helped us resolve our conflicts. In the past, we both tended to avoid conflict with each other, so problems would fester. This was extremely detrimental to our marriage, and contributed to her affair. In fact there is a classification scheme for affairs that includes one called the “Conflict Avoidance Affair” (see the link titled “Conflict Avoidance Affairs at: MSC articles <http://www.metasystemscenter.org/articles.htm>), and her affair fit the description pretty well. Learning to resolve conflicts successfully is one of the three key things people with great marriages learn to do according to Dr. Harley, but you have to learn to understand each other in order to do that well. As a reformed (recovering?) conflict avoider, my mantra became a quote from marriage author Gary Smalley: “Conflict is the doorway to intimacy”. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which I later changed to: "Learning to resolve conflict without getting into a big fight is the doorway to intimacy"

Hi JL & John

Yes I am in Aussie, in Western Australia, thats Wayyyyyyyyyyy over the other side of Australia from Sydney and Melbourne. Like New York is from LA.

Wife surprised me today. Rang me up before lunch and asked if we could go together. Shrugged my mental shoulders and said ok. well at lunch she stated she thought she understood why I needed to know the details now. eyebrows raised, sceptic I suppose..........but anyway she ploughed on, talking about how she knew everything I knew nothing re the A, she was over it I was just getting to know about it....methinks she has be reading the thread, which is totally ok with me by the way. HOWEVER she wants it discussed at the MC on Friday afternoon.........I didn't say no and after a little thought said ok if you feel safe doing it that way.
Now I know she has been speaking on the phone to the MC, the MC said she would be contacting her during this week.
Do you think its ok for this to happen at the MC? My feelings are that my W wanted a neutral place to discuss it.

I am starting to think that she really has no idea why she had the A, weather it was a ONS or more. it is just like trying to get blood out of stone. but I suppose we have to start somewhere.

JL, about wanting to stay M. I think I really got to the stage where I didn't care. Since being here on MB I'm thinking that I care about trying to get back the feeling of wanting the M to work, but I don't yet really care what the outcome is. I think it is a small subtle change but perhaps will prove to be important.
That is different from caring about my w by the way. Because I do care.

I think I am carrying more resentment, frustration and pain then I first thought. yep it sucks big time.

As for being conflict avoiders, nope thats not us by any means, well not until this anyway. We have never been backward in coming forward on heaps of things in our M, from intimacy to washing dishes........I guess thats why this is so surprising. I mean we may not have got everything always resolved to each others satisfaction but we DID discuss it.
I cant remember making a decision for either of us or the family unless we both agreed to it 100%.
Well the more I read the more I find that the reasons for A are limitless, Everything from EN's not being meet to boredom to drunkeness to drugs , well you name it. Apparently it's not always a lack of ANYTHING in a M. Thats not very encouraging is it? You can give everything in a M and get the same back and its still no proof against an Affair. Though that is rare so the researches say.
I guess there are no guarantees in life are there?

I had a talk with my 17 yo daughter tonight as well. God give me strength!!. SHe is as stubborn as her Mum has ever been or thoguht to be. I tried to explain that this trouble is between her mom & me NOT her or her brother. We still both now & always love them and they will never be made to choose between us. She is Sooo mad at her mom and old enough to know about all the issues re sex of course etc.
Her words must cut her mom like a knife. I dont want that at all.
I got her to agree not to call her mom names or get involved in any disputes over the A. There are no grey areas when you are that young, its black or white, so how long that will last is anyones guess.

Aussie,

Yes, I have a pretty good idea about your part of the country. I have distant relatives that live near Perth. Moved there from the US about 20 years ago. Always wanted to get to that part of your country. I have been up and down the Eastern coast.

I think talking with the MC there is a GREAT way to do this. She does need to feel safe, and it is a place where your thoughts and concerns can be validated as well. So I second her idea wholeheartedly.

As for your feelings about the M, I think you are pretty normal. Your LB has been drained pretty much and you don't know anything about the A other than it happened so that leaves you with NOTHING to address but a deep suspicion your M has been a lie for a long time. So I would NOT worry about that too much right now.

Recovery is where much of this gets sorted out, and that can only occur when YOU KNOW what happened. I hope your W has been reading here and I hope she is beginning realize that until you know the TRUTH, there really is little hope for your marriage. That last statement comes as no surprise to you, I know. But, it seems to be a surprise to your W.

I would like to caution you about something and also make a suggestion. Sit down and start writing all of the questions you want answers to, and I mean all of them. Then look at them carefully and ask yourself, is the answer to this question going to really help me and help my marriage recover? Some information will give you nightmares and you probably don't need it. Some information will give you nightmares but you DO need it.

Make sure you have this list and it may be 10 pages or more. Make a copy for your W and for MC. Nothing you need is to silly to ask and nothing you don't need is worth fighting over.

There will be a tendency to ask the same questions over and over. To some extent you need to do this so that you see if you get the same answer. IT is the process by which trust is rebuilt. ON the other hand it can be very aggrevating for your W to hear it over and over.

So at some point write down the answers and refer tothem. YOu are not there yet, but this is something you can POJA once you have a better understanding of what you are dealing with.

I am very glad to hear that she is willing to start talking, and remember if you want the truth you cannot punish her for giving it to you. It may hurt, but refrain from throwing the information into her face. You want her to open up, you want better communications, you want a different marriage, and you want her to trust you enough to be honest with you herself.

You are doing well, and you right on schedule. Hang in there and let's see what the MC says.

God Bless,

JL

I hope she is reading here. It sounds a little like she stumbled across something like this: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> .... The fact that my wife was always completely honest was so important I cannot emphasize it enough. I asked for a lot of detail, which is not necessarily recommended. She might ask me why I wanted to know, or how knowing would help, but if I wanted an answer and she knew the answer, she would give it to me, even though it was painful for her and she knew it would hurt me. That really helped me trust her. During her affair, she had hidden things from me, in part to “protect” me from the truth. In contrast, she was now telling me the truth even if it was painful for me to hear. That was a big, if painful, step toward rebuilding trust. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">, or maybe she just read the "Joseph's Letter" quote in Believers post. In any case, good luck.

Just to warn you, though - there may be things she says that you understand in a way that is different than her intended meaning. This can be very difficult to get past, because what she says will not make sense when the words have the meaning that you assign them. This may make you feel like she is not telling you the truth, which will further hurt and anger you. If you lash out at that point, it will be very hard for her not to get defensive, which will further erode your communication, and probably make her less willing to share. Please persevere in pursuing a complete understanding of what she says. I hope your wife will persevere in trying to explain it to you.

<small>[ August 17, 2004, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

well we had the first MC session today. I dont know what I really expected but the MC has spoken to WW first a number of times over the phone. The first thing she asked me was to explain as clearly as I could what I thought I wanted right now, told her & WW the truth, not really sure I know what I want, the M just didn't seem that special to me right now.

Explained my frustration and resentment, was asked a heap of open questions that seemed to me was trying to confirm my behaviour in recent years, how I react to things, I guessed she was trying to get my WW to know where I am right now.

Shw asked WW had she given thought to what was missing in our M and relationship? W seemed very quiet through what I said. I did expect her to say she felt bored or alone or something. But no. She said she had thought and thought on this for a long time and that there was not anything that she felt was missing then in our relationship.
No serious arguments, no dissatisfaction, lack of love or affection. She said she still got a thrill when I kissed her just for no reason, that our sex lives felt so right to her. (Well before I found out of course, as since then about the only desire I've had is to leave at times)

She said, her words 'It was like the physical feelings were not there with him, it was well, doing something you know is so wrong and getting away with it. The thrill was not him it was breaking the rules of all that I know is right. I was not a wife or mother or anyone, this seemed to have nothing to do with you or any of that. I never wanted it to effect us'

BLAH BLAH WTF is that??????????????? What did she expect it would do then?

Got the BARE details, no pun intended, of her A. 6 times over 4 months all after drinking a lot at a work sundowner. mmm maybe ............ after that crap perhaps she thinks she can sell me the Sydney Harbour Bridge????
So romantic in the back of his car......images suck!!!

Believe me it was very hard to get through the rest of the session. Anyway she wanted to talk to W alone for a while which suited me right down to the ground.
Said I was going back to work. W just said a quiet OK, I left. Didn't go back to work, I felt and still feel a bit disorientated and more confused than ever.
Spent the afternoon at the Belmont Pistol Club. Just can loose yourself there thinking of target and stance and not think anything. Have to admit though that the OM face fitted on the targets just PERFECTLY.... well I can think about it cant I, too bad the real world isnt so easy.

Look maybe the message is sitting there right in front of me but right now I feel like $hit and really dont want to talk to her for a while.

However, I didn't go to the pub, I didn't have a drink, felt like it but didn't, and I got home around 4.30pm bit earlier than usual.

Biting my tongue as everything she says seems to offend me tonight, like 'are you ok?' I felt like saying F*** YES I"M WONDERFUL..& so on...but I'm just keeping it cool until I can talk about it without going of at her. Of course the MC warned us about his but actually going through it is a damn lot harder than talk.

In one way its a relief to know, In another I'm not sure she has told me the truth. I have to wonder if she can lay straight in bed let alone tell the truth about anything else.

And the images just seem so cheap, so different...just yuck.(Of course I would like to say another word but you get my meaning)
One thing remains the same, its still so hard to be in the same room with her when we are alone.

I didn't handle any of the MC well or what the W said. I asked for the details, got some and all I wanted to do was go. It was so obvious as well.

Nearly 3.00 am here, I cant stand to be near her just start feeling sick like I want to throw up.
So been up avoiding going to bed.

I dont feel bad within myself or depressed or so hurt that I cant think, that would be a blessing. No I feel that I do not know this person I married, that maybe I never did. So now I'm also questioning everything, how many others, if now why not before??

Its the doubt that anything was as I thought it was.

A part of me wants to hurt her with words and questions, but I'm determined to shut up if I cant be civil about a subject. I'll keep the questions for the MC, even the nasty ones, yeah I have those too.

She cried herself to sleep, didn't feel any satisfaction as perhaps you might think.
I have kept to the safe type subjects all night, is that good or bad? Dont know except I couldn't discuss the issues right now. it was hard enough being in the same room with her tonight

Can be so easy to advise and point others in the right direction. I do it every day as a job, but I made an absolute pigs breakfast of this today.

aussie - Your reactions are very normal. But it will get better. I promise you that.

Well today was different.

Today I am to blame for everything and I am the evil person.......sigh

She is so mixed up and confused that it was hard not to laugh really. Yes I know big NO NO. I didn't & just said I was sorry she felt that way right now. No sarcasms

She watched the olympics all day.

tonight she was sorry for her comments ...........well we are even, we both dont know what we are doing at times.

aussie -

Well you are still doing well, and she should start coming out of the fog. She won't mope around forever.

My WH is coming over today, and we are going to try to agree on splitting our financial things. I hope I can be calm and not get into relationship or A talk.

hi all

today was not to bad being that we both were at work. However I think I got the first real 'fog' talk everyone writes about.

I think all your earlier advice may have been spot on...she was in & is in withdrawal, the A ended outside of her control and she does NOT like that.

Anyway, this morning, got the kids off to school. Trying to keep it alltogether as it's our daughters final year before Uni if she wants to go on, so she cant afford to have all this stuff going on around her really.

So off they went, we are getting ready to leave as well, WW has been obviously thinking about something and looks up at me as I pick my bag up with a VERY annoyed expression and says " If you 'married' people had just let us run our relationship to an end I could feel so much better about it"

K????? I very nearly said something very rude but remembered what you all told me....... and said
"Mmmmmm do you think so?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

You know, I'm worried. After reading SO much on this site about fog talk that ALMOST made sense to me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well tonight she is at he MC alone, MC wants to talk to me tomorrow before our next joint session.

I'm actually having more trouble being alone with her the more I learn.

Yep, that was definitely fog talk. See how crazy they are? Only thing is, they don't realize it.

Hopefully she will get over this soon.

Had along talk with MC today. told her about not wanting to be near WW in a SF way or really even in the same room alone.....seems worse in fact.

Says as I learn more I need to process it, reasonably normal. Doesn't seem normal. Says she is having very productive talks with WW, whatever that means.

Talked to he about what is happening with kids, suggested this was an important issue for WW & I to discuss as part of the 'general' M discussions. If we were both concerned in a few weeks she could refer us to a psychologist who spealises in youth behaviour....... Sh*t now we are having the kids in counselling???

its times like this when I feel like telling her to rack off. Go make some other poor [censored] miserable

this is bloody harder than I thought to keep any respect for her right now

aussie - How long has this been going on for you? Sorry I forgot. Also how does your wife treat you right now?

Lets see believer. its 17 weeks since she told me. It has been a mixture of matter of factness, come on lets gets on with life, to vrying, tears, I want to die, then absolute cold, emotionless response to anything I say, do, go, feel.......that I dont know where I am with her from one moment to another.
Now she hasn't been outright cruel, nasty or mean, the worst is when she seems to turn off everything inside.

I have been growing away from her. I have seen it, understood what was happening but powerless to stop how I am feeling.

She does seem so sincere in the MC , but....look I dont even know if she is still in contact with OM via email or phone at work.......I simply dont trust what she says.

You see the thing which really sticks in my mind is that prior to the OM leaving the state, this is the period she must of been deep into the affair, she was really so loving and the SF, I mean I felt like I was back on our honeymoon, it really really sickens me now.

Hmmmm. That is something you are going to have to resolve in your mind. Mostly WS's do not want SF with their spouses when they are "addicted". And for women, affairs are not usually about sex, but instead about emotional needs.

I think that your situation is very hopeful. You CAN have a better marriage than before. You will have to forgive your wife though. I hope you are not one of those men that cannot get over their wife straying.

I hear you believer. I know I have to forgive her as much for me as her.

It's just that I'm finding parts of it hard to comprehend, the SF stuff is totally involuntary, the MC who is also a IC - she’s a psychiatrist- said she was concerned about it and wants to see me for a while, so I guess I’ll go.
Don’t know its all so hard right now.
Starting to get real bad dreams of the war (Iraq) as well.
Woke up two nights ago a found myself outside with this thought of having to hide and went into a panic because I couldn’t find my rifle, it was so weird.
Never done anything like that. I can laugh at it now and think it was lucky I didn’t go out the front, door, imagine trying to explain to the police why I was running , well limping, around with nothing on but a pair of shorts at 4.00 in the morning in the middle of winter?? lol
I can understand why many run away from a M when an A happens, your life turns to Sh*t.
The more I see of all of those who stick it out sometimes to the bitter end the more I admire them, men or women.
Wish it was easier.
SO I'm going to be the quiet pleasant H who in lieu of opening his mouth to change feet will show her some affection just because she needs it now.
At least the thing with the kids is getting better.

Were you in Iraq? You could have PTSD. I work at a Navy Hospital, and believe me, there are lots of others dealing with this now.

Go to the counseling and try to figure out where you stand as far as SF. I know it is hard for men to accept that their wife has been with another man, because they take it quite personally. I think it is easier for women - we just say that all men are dogs.

I do think you will have trouble rebuilding your marriage unless you become committed to doing it.

Where is your wife in all of this?