Aussie,

It sounds as if you have a very good counselor. I really like the idea of asking you BOTH about how to address the issue of the dress. Please keep talking to your W about it and listen to her when she talks to you. This is something that you two need to POJA. I will tell you why.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So MC asked what did WE want to do about it……….. Well we don’t know yet. She folded it up and packed it when we got home. She said she doesn’t want to throw it away, she just didn’t think about how it would be for me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is something that people often don't realize. The gift if often more important to the giver than the recipient. It symbolizes things to the giver. THings such as their willingness to give up something (in this case things you might have enjoyed with the money you spent on the dress) to see her HAPPY. That was the thing wasn't it. That gift made her happy, and as a consequence, it gave you great joy. Perhaps you two need to talk about this abit.

What she did not know was that you are more sensitive that you let on. She did not know how much you paid attention to the little things. Now the movie running in your head is NOT a little thing, but it will gradually fade. But, the other things that are little are triggers because you did care, and you paid more attention than she thought.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is the little things like this that now seem harder to accept than the A itself. At least to me. To me it seems like a personal attack on me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So what you are saying Aussie, is that it is the little things that define a marriage and love. It is the little things that become special. It is NOT the grand things, the overt things so much as it is the little things. If that is what you are saying I fully agree with you.

But here is something for you to think about and for her to understand about you, IF I am right. You are not a big romantic are you? You like me and most of us guys, see the same movies and think that if you did that your W would KNOW you are a fake. So you do the little things, you look for the little things, and you pay attention.

She onthe other hand may have interpretted your lack of ROMANTIC behavior as not loving her or caring, hence someone else was allowed into her life.

Perhaps you two need to sit down and talk about these things. What each of you view as signs of love, of caring, of protecting the other, of simply liking the other. Perhaps it is time to sort of really understand one another.

No arguements, no he said/she said, just talking and listening to each other.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do think we are right to discuss a lot of this with the MC, otherwise I’m sure we’d tear each other to shreds and apart. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right until you both change your perspective and are willing to listen to one another. No defending just listening and then asking clarifying questions. You can talk to each other as I mentioned, and still protect each other as well. Discuss this possibility with her, discuss what it would take for her to feel "safe" in talking with you about her ideas of love, and having her hear yours. Lay the ground work and ground rules.

I think you should leave the heavy "how could you, why did you" to the counseling visits, but it is time to learn about one another and to protect one another.

Just my thoughts on the matter, I hope that something I have said is of use to you two.

God Bless,

JL

Maybe the both of you can agree to burn the dress together.
You'd be surprised at how therapeutic destroying something by fire can be. Just throwing these things away.....there is something that is not gained.

My wife makes these strange comments when in MC when the discussion turns to what emotional needs drove her to an A, basically none according to her.
The MC told me it is not that strange for there to be little or no issue on these things where the driver is another issue.

So again we heard this is nothing to do with me or us this is something I did. Now this has been so consistent that I guess I will have to accept it. So MC started probing a bit about alright you say its ‘you’ what s it about you that caused this a…
This is where she seems to clam up and fade out .

We have discussed a few things where we both have failed a bit, like allowing kids to divide that sort of thing, but they are really not anything that seems to push her buttons of resentment.
Today not really discussing much I mentioned that one day when shes ready I’d like to know why as I just didn’t understand that.
Well out of the blue I got a different response and well I don’t know….it sounds sort of genuine , but I guess I trust little she says right now.
Ok she said it was because it started when she was feeling stressed from work and got stinking rotten drunk and thought that well it wont effect our M because it doesn’t mean that much and I’d never know anyway. Mmmmm I don’t know …..
She insists she had little ‘feeling’ for the OM it was opportunity and she said she had to get drunk every time anyway. Mmmm again
Now I know for the period she was having the affair she did come home very late in a taxi from the sundowners drunk over about 7 weeks which matches her first admissions to me.

Now I have not pushed this at all, just accepted what she has said. Maybe we can discuss this at the mc this week and left it.
Does it sound real do you think. ???

Aussie,

I think what is happening is that as time is going on some of what motivated her is coming to the surface. I am sure she doesn't want to face whatever drove this.

Does her explanation sound reasonable? Yes, it sounds like it is, but it suggests that there is more deeper. Your right perhaps MC might be able to get at it, it might take you not being there.

Let's construct a scenario and see how it would play out in your mind.

Life at home is so/so. She is not unhappy but she is NOT really happy either.

Work is stress full and combined with general blah at home, it seems worse.

So she goes to a party has more than a few and suddenly this guy is looking pretty good and it seems to be "fun". Something to do that brings a spark into her life. It is not the guy so much as the 'freedom' of being under the influence and doing something so out of character.

Now deep down perhaps she wanted to try "someone new" out, but would only do that is she was really drunk.

But, my real point is this. If it is NOT something obvious directly to do with you and she seems deeply remorseful I would suggest the following.

First, do your best to make life around your house better, more positive,fun, whatever term seems appropriate. Make it a place she enjoys coming to and I suspect that you will NOT have to worry about this again.

Second, address the issue of drinking,especially when you are not around. If she does not normally drink to access, then her doing it at the "sundowners" is a clue to her unhappiness and she was NOT handling it well. She should have been talking to you.

Third, give her time. It seems she is coming to some realizations and I would be one of them was that she was NOT happy and she was stressed. Now you may not have been the cause of the unhappiness, but the question is can you be the cause for her to be happy.

Just some thoughts Aussie. I know what I am saying is that she is getting "rewarded" for her bad choices, but you know the old saying here in the states </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If Momma Ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hang in there, it seems to me you two are really making progress. I know it seems very slow to you, but you really are cruising along at a pretty good clip. Hang on to your hat. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

Aussie:

I read you are having trouble with the movies. We all do—it is a guy thing. Women don’t seem to struggle with that--- they worry more about emotional involvement.

I read somewhere that one must deal with these movies until they become mundane and trivial. At some point they may even become the subject of jokes. If we bottled the awful feelings we have with the movies we will never get over them. The triggers are going to always be there. In my case the worst trigger is the TV where they often show acts of infidelity. Just last night I had to watch a woman who looked a lot like my wife being unfaithful. My wife was next to me--- we looked at each other and said nothing.

The thing to do is to talk about it at nauseum until you slowly develop immunity to the images. Don’t pretend the sex was bad or that the orgasms were not good. My wife told me----- a good orgasm is a good orgasm regardless of who is on top. Try to trivialize the sex and understand that it is nothing more than physiology in action. The only reason we are in the planet is to propagate the species. Therefore sex will happen---- it is physiology. The Muslims know this-- that is why they don’t allow men and women in a room together.

My wife says that I can become very depressed and sad if I look at the sex as something sacred and holy. She keeps telling me that the important thing is that she wants to stay with me and that I am a better man than the OM. Lets put the movies away!

"My wife says that I can become very depressed and sad if I look at the sex as something sacred and holy." - Interesting sentiment Stanley. Do you share your wife's view of sex?

I find it interesting that it's ALWAYS the WS that adopts this philosophy. I'm curious if they would be quite so cavaliar if the roles were reversed? I suspect not!

Horseh!t like that makes me sick!

aussie -

That sounds like a reasonable explanation to me. During my marriage it seemed like I did nothing but work all day, and come home to work some more.

I can see where it would be fun to go out after work and let off some steam. I never did, because I don't believe married women should be in bars, leaving their family at home.

I don't know if you have read "Torn Asunder" but Calder talks about "The message of the affair". Often it is nothing about the partner, or marriage, but a feeling of disatisfaction inside the WS.

Interesting sentiment Stanley. Do you share your wife's view of sex?

My wife has been my only sexual partner. Therefore you can imagine that sex was something special for me. However, I must rationalize in Freudian way to cope with the concept that she went to bed with someone else. Until that point she had only slept with me.

Stan

I can see where you are coming from on the sex thing, that RIGHT NOW its the way for you to cope with the movie scenes we see in our heads.

I thinks thats fine as long as you do recognise its a tool for coping and not the actuality of the situation in a normal relationship.

Ron is right, it is a typical WW statement , of someone in the fog and denying realitity. Of course sex in your M is a sacred act, otherwise all you have is two people living together having sex with who & when they want, not a M in my book.
But if this is a tool to help people cope then ok, as I pretty sure Stan you feel the truth but cant deal with all the issues it raises now, well thats normal, who of us can easily do that?
If it can work for me I'll use it to get past that hump to.

The thing it does show though Stan is that your w is still in the fog at least to an extent, not yet into rcovery. Thats probably a good thing to know so as to cater your Plan A or MB action to where she is.
I've had similar said to me by my w some weeks ago, it started real knock down bitter fights. All she wanted to do was forget it. It was not about emotions just sex.
You know the almost funny thing, I asked her one time just before we started MC how would you like it if I 'just had sex' with a nice young girl from work. You know what her reply was..'thats different,I'd leave you!
Doesn't that just take the prize?

But the movies, I hate them, I HATE THEM. It undermines the trust I build up of her and that in turn undermines her trust in me. I know what it is doing but that doesn't help.

Maybe its just too hard a thing to ask me right now, too soon, too close.

JL, Believer

it sort of plays true to me I think.

I know that there has been no possible way I could have been a perfect h to her over the years. I'm not saying I was bad or insensitive all the time, but the Army kept me away and then the war, well I am not the same person now. Some better some worse I guess. But the thing is she had to get to know me all over again & try to understand what happened and why it affected me, and she couldn't, no one who has not been through it can and thats not her fault at all.

She says it has been very hard to talk to me, she senses that 'something' is missing within me and it scared her away. I can see where that isolated her.
Before the war we could finish each others sentences, really I mean that. I could be idly thinking something and say to her 'why dont we...& she could pipe up and say go for a BBQ witht the kids today. We always joked about it being esp or something.
She did mention in our first MC when I was really so angry I sort of ignored it, that I had brought the war home with me.

It makes a sad kind of sense now.

Maybe for whatever reason she felt unhappy in herself around this time. Do you think she could have felt some misguided guilt for not being able to help me with the war issues ?
Well I suppose thats what we have the MC for. But I will encourage her to talk about this.

MAybe we are getting somewhere you think?

I am sure that she felt bad about not being able to help you with the war issues.

So sorry that you did not have some counseling before all of this happened. In the US there is constant counseling for the wives of the men, even before they come home.

When they do come home, there is counseling for the warfighters. There are tons of problems anyway.

Also from a woman's point of view, I wish my WH had said "it was just sex". That would have made me feel much better. The emotional tie is the one that bothers me the most.

Aussie,

Yes, NOW you are getting somewhere. I am inclined to think that what your W has said about the affair, that is more about escape, than LOVE for the other guy. It was a relief from stress in her life. Not a good way mind you, but a relief.

Your discussion of coming home and how it affected you, including the PTSD ( I think I got the initials right), certainly tie into this as something changed the dynamics in your marriage.

You are starting to address issues that existed BEFORE the A, and frankly that is a very good thing. While there is no way to explain all of this to your W, you are aware of the side effects of PTSD (?). I think she is too, isn't she?

Is it possible for you to talk with her about this abit? Is it possible that you two could decide to help each other? Interestingly, the WS often exhibit similar symptoms as you probably do. Talk with her about her feelings and about yours. Aussie, be kind to her and show her that you care for her. You are the stronger one right now, use it. Then let her help you.

I think your MC should be brought into this topic if it has not already been broached.

Aussie, I see progress. You two are healing from more than just the A. War is very very hard on people and it DOES change them. But, these changes can be accomodated IF people will realize that they are there and then address them. Oh! and for you Buddy (Mate <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) that means taking care of your physical issues as well. This coughing up blood stuff is NOT a good thing.

Aussie, you want to be at the top of your game physically and mentally, get help when you need it, and don't wait until you are losing something to do it. Take care of yourself, AND your family.

God Bless,

JL

Personally, I think both you and your W have come a VERY long way in a short period of time.
Just think, how good things will be between the two of you a year from now if you both keep up your existing efforts.
Tell your W, that a perfect stranger is impressed with the both of you.

Another MC today with some time separately with each of us.
I have said before that I was a different person than I was before the war and that is true, however its not the only thing I have come to realise.
Today in our private session the doc pressed me a bit more than I have wanted to admit before.

The truth, the real truth is I don’t want to be here at the moment. I want to be with my mates back in the Army back in the streets with them. I want to go back to the war rather than be with my wife. There I’ve said it.
I don’t want this stupid boring Gov job, soon the medics say I’ll be totally fit again and though I appreciate the rehab department for setting the job up in my wife’ s Department, I want to go back to what I’m trained for.
I understand this may sound stupid to those who have not been where I have but perhaps another vet may.

We have lots to work through yet, I know that, but sooner or later I have to tell her I want to stay in the Army for now, but I’m confused on when or how to do it.

MC thinks I should take little bits at a time, resolve the issues one by one, where possible, she thinks then I need to assess what I want & discuss it with my wife.
In some ways we are doing well, I’m doing well with her too, much better than a month ago, most times now it is good to see her and talk to her.
We are both very touchy about the affair still, but little bit by little bit I can see us starting to understand each others attitude and responses.

But shouldn’t I be honest over this? I just don’t know what is the right thing to do.. Neither the MC or I know if this is all related to the affair or my experience and own desires, I think it is but MC is not sure I’m not seeing the forest because of the trees so to speak.

Has anyone felt something like this? Should I say anything yet? This seems to be a very deep feeling for me but then again 2 months ago I wanted to never speak to her again and thought she could go rot in hell…… well we know that wasn’t true . I don’t know, will hiding this from her do more damage than good ??

In any event I didn't say anything at the joint session.

Aussie -

That is very common, to want to go back and join your mates. Even men who are hospitalized here say they want to go back. Beats me, I can't figure it out.

Crazed love's husband went back to the war, and he still had PTSD and would not seek treatment.

I would think this over very carefully.

If I was your wife, I would want to know, and discuss it with you. But if your counselor says to take your time, you'd best do that.

Interesting that the counselor was able to pull that out of you.
Does the feelings about going back have really anything to do with the situation with your W?
Or is it more guilt driven? What I mean is, do you want to go back because you feel guilty that they have had to stay there, while you had to come back because of injury?
Something to think about anyway...

I think it has been with me since I came back. I guess I didn’t want to discuss it at all with my w as I knew how she felt about it. I think I buried it away because it would look like I was rejecting her totally and then the affair and everything just heaped up on top of that.
As the physio has helped me heal at a faster rate I’ve really wanted to go back. Perhaps in a way the affair makes it easier for me, I don’t feel as guilty at going if I can.
My BIL was called up from his reserve unit on Friday and reported to the barracks on Saturday so I feel it even more.
But the funny thing is, when you’re there you only think about home when you have a quiet moment. All I know is you don’t leave a mate not ever, you stay with them until the end, one way or the other, I don’t know any other way.
So I guess I wait to see if I can pass the medical and decide from there.

The joint MC session was ok if a bit awkward on the issue of wife having sex with OM. Her admission that she had to get drunk in a way helps but it does leave me feeling uneasy. Is she going to do that again if she drinks too much at a function or something? OK I’m slowly getting it that it was about her and her issues and stress , well I’m trying to accept that , but it gives me no confidence that there is anything I can do to prevent it happening again sometime in the future.
Does that make sense to anyone?

I mean so many times I read here that the H or W can do this that or the other to build up the M and make it affair proof as much as possible. But what do you do when your W and MC say it was only her own inappropriate response to her work stress ?
Now the OM no longer works there, not even in the state. that’s a plus.
Am I being unreasonable if I ask her to change jobs? I don’t think it evens needs to be in another Department as long she is not actually doing such a stressful job.
Now I know she is dedicated to her job, child protection is very stressful and you see things which must affect you , even if you do become desensitised.
I know some might say well you have the Army and she has put up with all of that over the years and that’s true. So how do I make this sound a reasonable request & not a do it or else type of demand? I’m thinking that if she is not under this type of stress at work it lessens the chance of any repeat performance.
Though I do wonder if she will see it as she having to give up what she loves and I get to do what I want. Maybe I’m way off track even wanting that, but how do I feel confident it wont all just happen again if things stay like they are?

Well I'll talk it over with perhaps, or maybe the MC, dont know if it is to early to discuss this or not.

hey we had a great weekend and actually for the first time in months she laughed and joked and so did I.

It was great to see her happy for a while and not so wrapped in the pain & guilt.

I think it surprised the hell out of both of us, but a pleasant surprise.
And it seems we solved the SF question to.

Aussie,

So you all solved the SF problem? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Good for both of you. I am glad to hear the weekend was a good one.

You said something I thought I would respond to and see what you think about my idea. You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now I know she is dedicated to her job, child protection is very stressful and you see things which must affect you , even if you do become desensitised.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just like the Army right? Has it occured to you and your W that you do have similar tastes in occupations? It should,is my feeling.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know some might say well you have the Army and she has put up with all of that over the years and that’s true. So how do I make this sound a reasonable request & not a do it or else type of demand? I’m thinking that if she is not under this type of stress at work it lessens the chance of any repeat performance.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And she is thinking if you were not under the stress of combat you might not get killed. Am I right?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Though I do wonder if she will see it as she having to give up what she loves and I get to do what I want. Maybe I’m way off track even wanting that, but how do I feel confident it wont all just happen again if things stay like they are?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First, let me say I grew up in a military family, I was in the military myself and your feelings of rejoining your "mates" is very very normal. It is what makes a good army function properly. So don't apologize for that, or wanting that. There are few experiences that match the high, the thrill, the terror, and the bonding that combat brings.

But, my thought is this. Your W is devoted to her job although it is high stress. It seems to provide MORE than just money to her. Isn't it time you acknowledged that? I think so. Further, your job is very similar, it is more than just money, isn't it?

Perhaps if you both acknowledged that you are more similar than you think, and you both admit to the stress of the job and what it can do (you and I both know that married troops do have ONS because of the situation), then perhaps this is a more controlable situation than you think right now.

In fact, if you sit down and think about it you can see via your own experience how she could do what she did. But, Aussie, your own experience offers her hope and ways to deal with the stress other than by what she did.

Why don't you talk about what you each love and like about your chosen professions. I think you have a lot of common ground upon which to build the marriage you both want and need as well as, pursue the careers that fulfill both of you.

Just a wild idea on my part but think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Well I'll talk it over with perhaps, or maybe the MC, dont know if it is to early to discuss this or not. [/quote]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hey we had a great weekend and actually for the first time in months she laughed and joked and so did I.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I treasure those moments--- when for an instant the affair is not in my mind.

Good for you!