Stanley,

I don't think much of your James Bond operation for several reasons. 1. You keep getting caught, suggesting that she knows you better than you think. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

2. I think it is rubbing this in your W's face and it will inhibit your recovery.

May I suggest that you sit down with your W and tell her the following.

"A. I don't trust you right now.

B. I want to trust you and have a marriage that we both enjoy.

C. I need to trust you.

So my question to you Dear W, is how are WE going to accomplish this? I need your help and cooperation, and guidance in rebuilding the trust I had in you. Let's discuss this and come up with a plan that can help me, but is NOT too painful to you."


How does this sit with you Stanely? It really needs to be a team thing. Yes, you must heal on your own, but building trust is really something you both should work on. Put the ball in her court and allow her some say in how to do this, what checks should be in place, and then use them.

I would first and foremost begin this talk with ALL of your JB toys sitting on the table for her to toss.

That is my thinking on this.

God Bless,

JL

JL:

Thanks again for your input!

My wife discovered the gadget to record the phone a while back, however, before that I had informed her about a possible phone-tap. At the very onset this inhibited the OM from calling home. My wife was also gracious enough to agree to change the number of her cell phone. However, she has not shown much interest in changing the house number. Initially the OM suggested that my wife should buy a calling card so she can call him from a public phone. Obviously I cannot monitor this activity, but I don’t think my wife could be that evil to continue with the betrayal.

I discovered the passwords with “keylogger” which can be downloaded and used for free for 10 days. As you know this program records the keystrokes and therefore one can see what the password is. I don’t do this anymore since my wife gave me her passwords and freely shares everything with me, however, who knows! I occasionally check the history of sites visited which is available to anyone.

The early snooping gave me quite a bit of reassurance when I read words that my wife wrote in the aftermath of D-day. In one instance she is telling OM she cannot go on with the relationship and that she will need all her energies to heal the marriage. The OM then pleads to continue the relationship and she said she needed to be dedicated to me 100% of the time. However, this is within the shock of the discovery. Weeks later she wanted to talk to the OM very badly to see how he was doing. For some reason it was very important to my wife to find out whether the OM was grieving for her. She did not want to be considered as a casual fling.

My wife also calls me regularly during the day to let me know where she is going and to check up on me. I think I can safely say she is not in contact with the OM who lives in another faraway city.

I told my wife that I needed her full cooperation so I could trust again. I guess she is doing the best she can, but she is still in withdrawal and at times seems uncooperative. She is highly offended by the snooping.

I must also say that despite all the hurt, anguish, and misery the spying game was exciting. At times I was disappointed not to discover anything--------- quite a paradox! Why would I want to discover anything new?

In your prior post you mentioned my wife was still in the fog. My wife still thinks the OM is a great guy and dad even thou one of his kids is in therapy as a result of one of his affairs when he was married. The OM also asked my wife for money to pay for his expenses. My wife didn’t think this was wrong.


Do you think there will come a day when my wife will look back at this and say-------- what the hell was I thinking? Is that the day she will be out of the fog?

Stanley,,,,

I can fully relate to your actions following discovery.
It is wise advice for someone to tell you to take all of your snooping energy and put it into the marriage. However, it is so natural for you to protect yourself. Have you ever had the thought: "If I had done more snooping into my wifes whereabouts and activities I could have stopped this before it got started?" I bet you have. Now ask yourself this: "do you want a marriage where you have to snoop on your spouse.
It is a fact that trust can put up blinders.
Trust is the first emotion to be exploited during an affair. Give someone enough trust and it can be harmful to your relationship. As was my case.
Could you ever trust your spouse enough to let them go to a nightclub every wednesday while you watched the children? That is what I did. Now I know you are thinking "man that is just plain stupid." I trusted that my wife even under these circumstances would never betray me, plus I felt good that I could accept that. She needs a break away from the stresses of being a Mom and have a good time. All within this amount of trust lies the reason for the betrayal. Trust is built up and if given to much a reality check will follow.

Will me and you ever have this strong of trust for our wifes again? No way. Now we have become a person who lacks trust all together. Part of our reasons for snooping is not because we believe we are still being played. We do it to assure we are not being played. The longer we find out that our wifes are holding up their end of the bargain the more we begin to shift trust upon them. When we find our partner is being true we eliminate some of that resentment we have towards them. Obsessive snooping,, such as putting all of our time and efforts into nothing but the whereabouts of our wifes is just that,,,, an obsession. It is never wise to be obsessive about anything.
Live your life have fun be a loving husband and father and yes every once in a while confirm that another affair has not creeped back into your marriage, weather its checking e mail, phone bill, whatever gives you that feeling of my wife is being honest with me. You do not simply trust again, it is the actions and the honesty of your spouse that rebuilds that trust. How do we ever really know when someone is being honest? It has to be proven. AS time goes by we snoop less and less because the trust is returning piece by piece.
If you get caught snooping it definately can feel like a smack in the face to the FWS. To this I would advise your wife of how it makes you feel to see she is being true. How happy it makes you feel to see she is showing her honesty and determination to her marriage. You are not confirming she is lying you are confirming she is being honest. The more honesty you see the more you trust your wife. This is simply Natural. Assure her there will come a time when you no longer need this assurance, but at this time it is necessasary for you to heal and regain the trust in your marriage.

Eric:

I have known about my wife’s OM since the 1st day he wrote her email. It turns out the OM saw my wife in Classmates.com and decided to contact her. When my wife got the email she showed it to me and then we checked the OM’s web site together. The guy was way too ugly for a woman like my wife!

In any event I knew the OM would IM every once in a while, but I thought they were catching up on high school and stuff like that. I trusted her blindly, but should have known something was wrong when she stopped talking about this particular friend (she usually keeps me posted about what her friends are doing). Before there was any sex they talked on the phone and the computer for a whole year! I had plenty of chances to use the key-logger! On his first trip to my city my wife was unable to sleep with him when they met in a local hotel. However, the guy persisted and I guess my wife was receptive.

I should have known something was wrong when my wife acted very strange following the 1st time they had intercourse. I tried to make love to her and she acted in a VERY WEIRD fashion! That was a signal, but I ignored it. Then on the days the OM was visiting town my wife could hardly talk to me-------- It was like all monosyllables.

In any event it seems you are doing pretty well. At least your wife is demonstrating that she understands the magnitude of what she has done. In my case my wife thinks her job is done because she has agreed to cut off communication with the OM. IN the meantime she rather not talk about the affair anymore. She believes all her work is done. I am less than three months out of D-day and doing OK.

I guess at my age (53) this may be easier to accept, but it is VERY HARD! I didn’t leave because I don’t want to enter the dating game at age 53 and I love my wife.

BTW, yesterday I said the OM was not a good dad and my wife immediately defended him. She is very sensitive about negative remarks about the OM as this reflects upon her.

Alrighty guys and gals - I see that John gave me up and posted my site address. I'm not sure if that URL is working - we just launched a huge remodel - the new addres is www.symcinc.com There are still bugs to be worked out and still content that needs to be loaded, so if it looks a little less than fully cooked that would be why. And that little project is also where I've been all week.

I will try to pop in over the weekend to catch up on questions but I want to ask each and every reader here a favor. And yes, this means you.

If you've been to my site, you know that SYMC is sponsoring a national initiative called Marriage Fidelity Day. We are in the process of contacting all the US governors and asking them to sign our proclamation in support of marriage and against infidelity. It is a wonderful and very cool process. Every office I've spoken with has been so helpful and so courteous. I am sending them the Proclamation and info about my organization.

The other thing I need, and this is what I am asking you to consider, is someone in each state willing to send an email or letter supporting the Proclamation. I would provide the address and the text of the message if you like, all you need to do is to send it.

If, over the last 3+ years I have helped you understand this tragedy of infidelity just a little bit better or if I have helped you work through things in your marriage I am asking you to consider paying that forward by helping with this initiative to turn the tide away from the glamorization of affairs as love stories.

If you can find it in your heart to be part of this, email me at help@saveyourmarriagecentral.com

And now I return you to your regularly scheduled program....

C

Cerri seems to be busy, so I’m going to be totally arrogant and drop in to answer questions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> She can smack me around as soon as she finds out.

Where can I get a hold of your email?

You’ve got that now – help@info_lifeworkscoaching.com

2. Is there hope? My feeling is that we are going to make it, but who knows, at this point I trust no one.

There’s always hope. There have been amazing recoveries on this board, even after the couple was divorced. As for trust… that’s something that you can build. Step by painful step. If you trust no one, I’d suggest starting by showing yourself that you’re trustworthy.

3. Should I keep saying that I love her? At this point I am overflowing with love for her and cannot keep my hands of her------- it is hard! However, I manage to keep a distance so I don’t annoy her with excessive attention.

What’s your wife say about this? She’s the one who can really answer it. Personally, I suspect that the “overflowing with love” part comes through in many ways. The question is, which of those many ways is most pleasant for your wife? There are myriad ways to love, whether it’s taking out the trash (domestic support) or bringing breakfast in bed (affection and romance), or saying it (conversation and affection).

Do you think there will come a day when my wife will look back at this and say-------- what the hell was I thinking? Is that the day she will be out of the fog?

Most of us hit a point in our lives when we look back on something and think that. In fact, most of us look back on each and every significant event in our lives and think that at some point, whether it was a good or bad event at the time. It’s part of understanding ourselves and our lives. As for whether that’s when she’ll be out of the fog?

Well, I don’t really like the term “fog.” Although it’s descriptive of a mental state that certainly lacks clarity, it doesn’t really describe the complexity of what’s going on. The “fog” that we talk about is a mix of extremely strong emotions and the hormonal reactions that go with those emotions.

Both of them are driven by the biological drives that are associated with procreation. Those are incredibly powerful drives, and while we all condemn the crazy stuff that happens during an affair, it’s important to remember that it’s not “just” the fog. It’s THE FOG. A powerful, visceral drive that is designed into us so that we don’t kill each other during the first crucial years of a relationship that’s designed to create the next generation of the species.
It’s being misapplied in the case of an affair – the slippery slope of the affair has triggered those biological drives between two people who are not societally “available” for that mating drive to exist between them. The activation of the drive is tremendously harmful to the people around the affair couple, not least of whom are the spouse(s) involved.

All that harm, though, exists exactly because the biological drives are so strong and so very difficult to stop once they’re started.

Referring to all of that as “the fog” has always struck me as somehow disrespectful to everyone involved. The people having the affair are acting on biological drives that have been triggered – and are triggering – huge emotional responses. It’s a heck of a ride for them, both the ups and the downs. The people around them, who are swept into those biological drives entirely unwillingly also experience tremendous emotional, physical, and life-changing consequences.

And we attribute all this to a “fog”??? Errrrrr. Well, sure, it’s descriptive. But it’s a bit weak.

Just J


Thanks for your valuable input!

I guess we tend to use the forum lingo and therefore I
used the term fog. In my mind fog probably means that
the WS is not over the OP yet. My wife has said over
and over again SHE WANTS TO STAY WITH ME, however she
has admitted the OM is still in her system as the
affair ended only three months ago.

At the onset he affair was via internet------------
more like a friendship----------- then turned into an
EA over the phone and email----------- This lasted
about a year.

During that 1st year they saw each other twice when
there was a formal High School reunion (they were HS
classmates) and an informal reunion between students
several months later. This informal reunion was
organized by the OM. It is obvious my wife sent him
signals she was open for a physical affair and
therefore he was motivated.

He flew to my city after the 1st year of long distance
EA, but my wife was unable to jump into bed with him.
They saw each other every 2-3 months and eventually W
slept with him. At the end he was flying into town
every 2-3 weeks rather than every 2-3 months. The whole thing lasted two years.

My wife claims she loves me and always did while she
was doing the OM. In a macabre way I tend to believe
her. After D-day she instantly dumped the OM and has
kept her word. However, she is still grieving the
loss of the relationship or as they say, her brain
chemistry is still programmed for procreation.

I cannot blame my wife for succumbing to her biology. I would probably surrender to those same sensations. However, it is difficult for me to accept constant and repetitive deceitful and manipulative behavior. I know of folks who have been unfaithful because of a single mistake or because they were in the wrong place and the right time. Quiet often this was unplanned and it simply developed as an accident not to be repeated again. However, when one has to lie repeatedly and even manipulate the spouse one wonders if this behavior is the so-called fog. In my case I have one example that is quite painful:

The OM had planned to visit my town the week before Xmas for his customary 2-3 days of copulation. One day I come home from work and tell my wife I had decided to take vacation the week before Xmas so we can spend time together and help her out with the shopping and everything else. I still remember the disappointment in my wife’s face when I gave her the news------- she was not thrilled and said I was wasting vacation time. So lo and behold I come home next day from work and she is encouraging me to go and visit my mother for a few days on my own since she is old and depressed. The thing is------- I had never done this. Whenever I went back home to see my mother we always traveled as a family. However, she was very motivated for me to go away and made a plane reservation. In any event I went to see my mom and it turns out the OM could not make it because he became very ill.

After D-day I went back in time to review what I was doing while she was with the OM and stumbled into this event---------- I confronted my wife about it. It was obvious she wanted me out of the way so she could spend time with the OM. The wife was embarrassed and I could tell by the look in her face that she had done something evil to me and really had no way to explain it. She simply admitted that this type of deception was part of the package when there is an ongoing affair.

I know for a fact that my wife is not an evil person, in fact, she is kind and noble. However, I also know she grew up in a home where adultery was VERY COMMON and that is all she saw as a kid. Despite that I felt she had somehow developed a sense of honesty that would prevent her from that sort of deception.

1. Would you say that behavior like that is the fog?

2. Would you say that repeated lying and deception is the fog?
3. How can you explain that behavior in a person that is otherwise honorable?
4. I have the same drive she has for sex, however, I cannot be deceptive. Is this an inherited trait?

Oops! I forgot the issue of love:

I say “I love you” all the time. However, this is nothing new. I may say it more now, but I always said it here and there.

I believe I probably rate a 9.5/10 as a husband. My only fault is that whenever we fall into the late stage love where everything is supposed to be comfortable and relaxed my wife thinks she is neglected. In other words she would rather be in the romantic stage forever. BTW, as a wife I would say she rates 9.9/10. If she had not slept with the other guy she would have been a perfect 10.

My problem is that I have a severe case of sperm competition syndrome and I want sex 24/7. I think my wife does not like the pressure of having to put out all the time. I am trying to back off, but it is not easy. I want it daily and she would rather do it at our usual frequency of 2-3 times per week. The thing with her is that she cannot be a hypocrite in bed; she has to really feel it to go for it.

I have proposed the following:

Will only have sex on Wednesday during the week. Therefore, she knows I will not be pressuring her. The weekends will be open. BTW, she dislikes planned sex, spontaneity is much more attractive to her.

I also noted that she is more interested if I seem less interested. Of course, she still thinks of OM, but I don’t worry too much. There is NO CHANCE IN HELL she will leave me for the guy. My only fear is that one day she may want to have the OM on the side again. She claims she loved the high of the “procreation state brain chemistry”.

Today she admitted that the high of the affair made her do CRAZY THINGS. Did I say the guy is way uglier than me? But, I guess that is not important!

How does your WIFE think you rate as a husband? Have you gone through the Emotional Needs Questionaire and the Love Busters Questionaire with your wife? Did you get +3's on her top 5 Emotional Needs?

We have not taken the test. As you can imagine my wife is your typical WW who is not highly motivated to spend a lot of time in these endeavors. Her position is that she dumped the OM and has promised to never see him again. She was also willing to discuss some details of the affair and why she did what she did. However, by now (three months later) she is not that motivated to keep talking or to keep feeling sorry for herself. I can tell she wants to move on and cannot understand why some days I am somewhat down or sad.

As for me:

I don’t drink heavily--- only have wine or a Martini with a dinner in a restaurant.

I don’t smoke or have addictions

I am an excellent provider. . She never had to work and I always gave her as much as I could. She handles all the finances.

I never had an affair

I come home from work everyday and discuss my day with wife

Never lost interest in having sex with her.

I am a very clean guy and so is she. We both shower before going to be and she always demanded I out on a manly cologne before I join her in bed.

I may be a little weak in helping with house chores, but my daughters always helped.

At times W says I was taking her for granted. This may have been true, but she is a little more demanding in that department than most women.

As for her affair:

It is clear she never intended to leave me for the guy. She told me she was bored at age 49 with two grown kids having marital difficulties, and contemplating the end of her youth. The OM appeared and made her feel like a teenager. Her brain chemistry changed, she became addicted to the feeling and then did whatever it was necessary to keep the affair going. She also became quite horny and she loved that feeling! However, she fully recognized the OM was not the kind of guy who could replace me. For her the affair was more of a hobby and believe it or not---------- she thought the affair would not affect the marriage negatively because at the onset she was only seeing the guy in person every two months. The rest was long distance. Then things heated up and the guy was flying in every 3 weeks. It was then when I noted some stress in her voice and she also began to reject my advances in bed. She also developed insomnia and headaches. After I discovered the affair she told her OM she was glad it was all out in the open.


She also stated she would die if the kids find out. Our kids think my wife is a saint! I certainly would not want our kids to know--- so I will take this secret to the tomb.


As you can see I like to spill my guts. I find it helps to write these things.

Thanks for being here!

Stan,,,

I know where your coming from and it sounds like where I've been.. my wifes OM was ugly and thuggy,, wife even told me his nipples and his penis was pierced,,, yuck.

do not try to make since out of this one brother. It will drive you mad. All I tell myself is she wanted to see what it would be like with a nasty dude. I mean what other explanation is there.
I know we expect the OM to be the ultimate male but take a long look at the members here I guarantee you will not find any BS who says after seeing the OP I understand how I was betrayed.
I think I will leave this question to the psychiatrist. Please tell me if you ever find any information on how the WW chooses the other man.

Stan, I'm glad you have a good self-esteem and believe that you're a good husband.

However, I'm guessing that your wife would be a great deal more critical than you are.

Assuming, of course, that she would have the courage to be honest about it -- conflict avoidance is a HUGE problem and I'm guessing it afflicts your marriage.

I'd love to see you and your wife in coaching/counseling with a professional.

Stan: I suspected as much. OK, try this approach: Buy, and read together "Fall in Love, Stay in Love". The questionaires are in there, too. They are not about affair recovery. They are also about doing the most important things you need to do to have a great marriage, and not wasting time and energy on the non-essentials.

Or, if you can't stand to stay in the marriage without some more work in affiar recovery, inform her of that. And, if she will not, don't you dare lie to your children about why you left! It will not protect them or her. It will leave them unaware of the fact that they need to do something different than you two did to have a good marriage, and what the likely consequences of following in your footsteps will be.

Guys:

Thanks for the support!

I may sound like a happy camper when I write, but trust me I am still dying inside. It is no joke, this is the worst experience I will ever have in my life.

My wife is not interested in coaching. I asked her if she would be interested in talking to Cerri after she read some of her posts. BTW, the wife is not interested in reading about affairs or visiting the forum. The only reason she has read some of the posts is because I emailed her copies of good posts. If I included the URL for her to click I am not even sure she would do it.

She does not want to have a serious talk about these things, she is done with that. On top of that she is still in withdrawal and VERY DEFENSIVE if I say something derogatory about the OM.

After D-day I simply could not believe she went for the OM and spend a lot of time denigrating the OM. I stopped doing that, but every once in a while something will come up about the looks of the OM. Case in point:

When I read Eric's post earlier today I started to laugh out loud. My wife was close by and came to the computer to see what was so funny. My initial reaction was to show her the post, but before I could change my mind and click the page away she read Eric's words. She didn't like the post and immediately assumed I must have posted something nasty about her OM. I thought----------- “Oh, Oh major Love Buster from my part”. In any event she went on to defend why she liked the OM and told me she thought the guy was handsome and had a great personality. I bit my tongue and didn’t say anything. However, I am hurt by her tendency to always defend the OM looks.

She either is still madly in love or she wants to justify to herself why she had the affair. She may also want to feel good about some aspects of the affair. She has said the OM boosted her ego and self-esteem. Of course, I then bought a self-help psych book where it clearly states the self-esteem is only boosted when the outer image (one has) matches the reality of the inner image. Obviously and adulterer projects an outer image that is different than the reality of the inner self. HOwever, the OM told her she had a lot of dignity in the way she carried herself over and over.

<small>[ August 30, 2004, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Please tell me if you ever find any information on how the WW chooses the other man.


Cerri told me she sees disparity between OP and BS all the time. Generally the quality of the OP is inferior to the betrayed spouse so both men and women who are looking to be unfaithful are not too choosy regarding the OP. According to Cerri it all boils down to opportunity and convenience-------- these two elements are very essential for the betrayer. The looks may be less important. It may also be that the WW is not looking at the OM as a potential husband or as the man she wants to have kids with.

In any event it would be nice if I could post photos of the OM, my wife, and myself. It is a no brainier, the guy is nasty! What was she thinking?

I had the courage to ask my wife why she picked this OM and she admitted he was not a good-looking guy and that she fell for his personality. However, she insisted that in person he was not as bad as in the photo. She also freely acknowledged I was a better man, but I could tell she is still pissed at me for bringing up the deficiencies of the OM.

One thing we tend to overlook is that another person presents a novelty that an old spouse cannot duplicate. If the WW has a tendency to enjoy male attention due to low self-esteem she will fall prey to any man who treats her well. In my case, I can tell you my wife loves the attention. Right now she is enjoying the attention I pay her despite all the turn-moil of the affair and despite the fact that she has withdrawal. In my case my wife only saw the OM when he flew into town, otherwise it was long distance. I believe that if she had to see the OM daily the affair may not have lasted or perhaps never would have developed.

<small>[ September 02, 2004, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Hi cerri,

What I want to know, is:

Why didn't I hear about a bonfire this summer, and what effect do bonfires have on marriages?

And yes, I am both teasing, and asking.

Hope you and yours are well.

SS

Stan,

1. What is the likelihood everything will fall apart?

The real question is how likely are you to recovery and create an intentional lifestyle that is fulfilling for each of you. The answer to that depends on how willing you each are to make your own changes, putting the health of the marriage as your highest priority. Only you can answer that.

2. What if she never comes out of withdrawal? For how long do I hold on?
I don’t want to be married to a woman with a divided heart.

No of course you don't. That would be awful. Rule of thumb? Six weeks to six months as long as there is no renewed contact. The first weeks are the worst, after that it's a slow coming back to the surface - feeling as if you can breathe again - remembering you have a smile. Then the real work of recovery begins.

3. What if she decides to have contact with the OM in 2-3 years when things have calmed down?

Mmmmm...... if you create and implement a good strategy for recovery which includes the Policy of Joint Agreement then that's really not an issue. You would be in the habit of asking each other how s/he felt about a proposed action and choosing not to do anything that was objectionable of offensive to each other.

4. She prefers the VERY liberal approach to the affair as this causes less guilt. She still glorifies the OM despite his shortcomings as a father and husband. When will she see the light?

Suggesting that she needs to see the light is disrespectful - it implies you know better than she or that your values/beliefs have more merit. Any number of us might agree with that, but it's still disrespectful. What I think you meant to ask is when will some of the infatuation wear off and when might she realize that he has clay feet just like the rest of us? Takes time. Took me several years. The more she becomes engaged in and happy with your marriage the more likely it is that she will see him more objectively.

5. BTW, the OM preached to her on a daily basis for two years. This OM said the right words 100% of the time. I read many of his emails and he comes across as a manipulator. However wife disagrees.

Well yesss.... see you're calling him a name - "manipulator" - and that's bound to create an internal need for her to defend him. After all, if he was manipulative then she was manipulted and most of us don't want to admit to that. You could say that you disagree with his thoughts, words, opinions, but that he certainly has a right to them. You could even say that they don't add up or make sense TO YOU - but once again that he has a right to them. Avoid creating a place where she needs to defend him. In other words, drop your end of the rope.


Is that your web site on your signature?

It is.

C

TTsi -
Thank you for your help. I made a mistake and probably wasted some of your time, for which I am sorry. I still have trouble using my head properly with all this that is going on.

Never a waste of time - none of us does this well when it's our lives hanging on the line. I posted a conversation at SYMC that I had with a former WP - I'd like you to read it, and I'd like you to think about if there is something you still need to do. Your wife is hurting and lost and confused. No matter what happens, you'll be fine - but if she goes through with leaving the marriage and being with OM she will have long term regrets. She will anyway, but my deepest wish is that there is a way to minimize the pain and the damage.

Here's the link - http://saveyourmarriagecentral.info...44008616&f=303002716&m=377101884


C

Maddy, what a pretty name - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Interesting. You, know, everyone says their situation is unique and it's not. But yours is close.

Hum. Hummmm........ How far away did you move? How entrenched are you in where you are living now?
What's your feel on how much he likes your company?
I'm assuming you didn't divorce and that he's not seeing the original affair partner?
Is your energy level and self respect as good as they sound?

C

Hey Thos -

Of course, there will be outliers. I read that serial cheaters (the no-commitment end of the graph) are often lost causes. They are just too flawed and need to do a lot of internal work they rarely accomplish.

Mmmmm.... yeah.... see I have a problem with labelling people. And I happen to know a couple of serial cheaters who have done amazing internal work and now have happy stable marriages. But I will agree that until their behavior and the consequences of it become more painful than the hard work of change they won't actually make those changes. This is where "being nice" is destructive and harmful. A spouse who repeatedly forgives and welcomes back a serial cheater is contributing to the dynamic as well.

If this is the situation, the BS should cut their losses.

I disagree. I think that none of us has the right to tell another person when to end their marriage. It's unethical at best and unless one has a crystal ball that can predict the future an attempt to play god at worst. Better would be to encourage the BP to take the very counter-intuitive tough love steps to expose, confront, rock the affair boat, and then separate entirely to protect the marriage. If nothing comes of that after a year then it's possible the WP isn't ready to change. The decision to end the marriage or to hang on still lies entirely with the BP.


On the other hand, a drunken mistake with a ONS may be relatively easy to work though if the WS is truly sorry and understands the pain they have caused.

A drunken mistake ONS can be a form of serial cheating if it happens more than once. There still needs to be conditions put in place that eliminate the chances of that happening again in the future.

But what should the BS do when dealing with a long-term love affair (has tested commitments)? If the affair has lasted a decade, say, and survived all obstacles thrown in its path (such as previous exposure years ago) should the WS be treated as a type of serial cheater?

Those are really difficult because attachment is now definitely part of the picture - and attachment doesn't go away. At that point exposure might be a moot point - depending on who already knows (and accepts) the relationship and how the affair couple has absorbed and mitigated the hits to career, dignity, self respect, etc. I'd run through the motions, expose, confront, make waves, and then separate completely. Probably file for legal sep if possible and see if I could create some financial pain in the mix. And then I'd see what happened. This to me seems like a case with much less chance of success than a serial cheater.


Is the prognosis for building a fulfilling M with a person who was in such a long-term entangled affair as unlikely as with a serial cheater?

Well, I'm not buying the prognosis on the serial cheater but I would say that a long term affair that's been through exposure, etc is a really tough case. It would take a whole lot of counter-intuitive work on the part of the BP to make a difference. I'd love to talk to the WP in this case, though.

Some BS’s may even feel as if they are the ogre in this fairytale by standing in the way of true love and the compassionate thing to do is to just get out of the way. Besides, who wants to be married to someone who is deeply attached to someone else, and has been for many years?

And s/he would have every right to leave given those conditions. In fact, one has to wonder about the self respect of the BP to stay in that situation for so long.

I suppose the question can be boiled down to: Are there any hallmarks of an affair, or of the affairees, the BS should consider when deciding if the marriage can be rebuilt?

Good question. Difficult answer. Every BP wants to see their spouse behaving in a way that's contrite and cooperative - making amends - once the A ends. Can't say I've seen it happen that way very often. Usually they're cranky and mean, blame the BP, care more about hurting the AP's feelings than anything else, and seem pretty reluctant to do anything to get the marriage even close to back on track.

That's normal for the early stages after an affair ends. So, during those days it's really hard to tell who's going to do what it takes and who is not. That's why professional help is such an asset, a professional can help the couple ride out the inevitable roller coaster and let them know when things are progressing normally and when there's cause for concern. And that's why it's so important to lay out the conditions of recovery before the WP comes home.

Corollary Question 1: Are there any studies, or statistics, on which marriages tend to be recoverable and which are not (such as in the serial philanderer case?)

I don't know - I'll see what I can find.

Corollary Question 2: Is it your observation, as is stated in Torn Asunder, it can take as long as the affair lasted for the BS and the marriage to recover? If the affair lasted ten years, a dedicated ten-year recovery effort does not sound realistic or even humanly possible.

Hmmmm..... I would say that has not been my experience, but that's just running through a few cases off the top of my head. But you have to remember that ALL recovery is one day at a time - for the rest of your life. It's the choices you make in the moment that lead you either closer to or farther from the goal of a happy and fulfilling marriage. To think that the day will come that the marriage is healed and the couple no longer needs to work at it is a fantasy. Every couple has really crummy days when one or both of them wants to bolt. It's how we deal with those times that determines the health or un of the marriage - not the fact that they exist.

C