JL:

Once again your answers are so logical. You are correct, the brain is the most importantb sex organ.

BTW, my wife says that I never had an affair because she gives me all I need. She was as bold as to tell me she was taking care of all my needs while she was having the affair!

OK, so maybe i don't go in the Internet looking for love. However, I remember instances when I was younger where I had chances to be unfaithful and I always put the brakes on. My wife thinks I have a better superego than she does. After all she grew up in a family where adultery was the norm. That has to be ahuge factor!

It seems to me those who are prone to have affairs must be wired differently than those who do not stray. At age 14 my wife had an oral sex affair with a man in his mid 30s. There was no Internet or chance to share anything----------- this was all about sex. She then waited till age 49 to have her PA. I must have filled her needs during that gap. What do you think?

<small>[ September 03, 2004, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Stanley,

Ah! your W is correct. She gave you all you needed. But she did NOT say she gave you all you WANTED. You have very likely learned in your life to balance what you WANT with what you NEED, with what you can LIVE with. Your W has not. And yes it can be family of origin, FOO, issues.

I don't think it is a wiring situation at all. It is about choices, it is about balance, it is about being honest with yourself. Your W is justifying her lack of control, morals, judgement, sensitivity with the not being "wired" the same arguement.

I hold a PhD in a physical science. It is a field most people avoid in school. I have heard all of my life "you must be smart", it annoys me in many ways. The truth is I found it interesting and I was willing to work long hours yes even in HS and then college and graduate school to get where I wanted to be. It required that I set priorities, alot less party time, studying on the weekends, every night,etc. It was hard work. It was not easy because I was smart.

And you are NOT faithful just because you are "wired" differently. You are faithful because you chose to be faithful, and forsake the fun of spending the night in the sack with another woman that complimented you when your W would not.

Frankly, she probably does have FOO issues, but she had choices and she knew right from wrong, and most importantly she KNEW it would hurt you. She chose to throw all of that over for her own pleasure.

That is the fact, and that is the fact you have to face and deal with. It is a fact she should face as well, if she wants your marriage to heal.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.


JESS:

By definition affairs are selfish acts, so don't get too wound up about CC. She is normal, and she will very likely come out of this and then be faced with living with her choices for the rest of her life. You would NOT want to be her. So relax and let's see if we can help her when she comes back.

God Bless,

JL

JL:

I did not see FOO in the list of acronyms. What does it mean?

It is always a pleasure for me to talk to a physicist. At least they know the definition of infinity! LOL!

The funny thing about my wife is that in all other aspects she is not selfish at all. However, in this instance she certainly was VERY SELFISH. BTW, these are issues we have not discussed because at this stage she does not want to go over why she did it. But, to be honest, I think she did it because the opportunity was great. An OM from out town presented little stress. Once the OM started to fly into town a lot she became stressed, however, I don’t think she had plans to stop. In fact she told me two nights ago she still hates the fact that I discover the affair. She claims she wanted the affair to run its course and that she would have dumped the OM when the timing was right and that I should have never known about it.

I think she is also upset because she had to give up the affair when it was reaching its intensity peak. I guess it would have been better for her if D-day had been earlier or later in the affair. She claims no contact with OM, but who knows. I cannot be completely sure. She is showing affection for me--- so maybe not.

SORY I HIJACKED Ccs thread.

Get moving CC- continue


CIAO!

<small>[ September 03, 2004, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

JL, I think its nice that you want to help out CC, but personally I have no patience for someone whod oesnt want to help herself. She so obviously came here looking for sympathy and expecting that she was going to get support for what she did and the situation that she was in, and as soon as she heard that by the way, nobody hear thinks you are in the right, then suddenly it was too much for her to bare and she needed to leave. Most likely off telling her sob story to someone else somewhere else, dont you think? I just dont get why she would come here and flont herself like that. She even identified herself as a cheater in her screen name, like she's proud of that or something?? So if you can help her, thats great, but I think most of the people in the world dont justify cheating the way she does. My life before H cheated was far from perfect and it'll never be perfect and I would never expect it to be, but when you break vows and promises to your spouse you should be a whole lot more apologetic than she is. Instead, she still thinks she is entitled to have whatever she wants still. I hope that "someday" that you talked about can come soon for her. I feel so sorry for her H. No, I wouldnt want to be her, but how about a little more sympathy on her part for her H???

Jess,

Are you realizing how lucky you were when you found out about your H's A and how he responded?? Harley points out that in his practice it is not uncommon for the WS to never apologize. Your H could have acted like she has. She is NOT that unusual.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL, I think its nice that you want to help out CC, but personally I have no patience for someone whod oesnt want to help herself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh! she wants to help herself alright. She helped herself to another man's W. She helped herself to all she could get from her H and the OW.

But, she does NOW want to help herself as well. She is in pain and she wants it to stop. Right now the pain is of losing her lover, but that will heal and then she will face REAL pain when she sees what she has done to her family and H.

She will help herself don't worry.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She so obviously came here looking for sympathy and expecting that she was going to get support for what she did and the situation that she was in, and as soon as she heard that by the way, nobody hear thinks you are in the right, then suddenly it was too much for her to bare and she needed to leave. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right, we are part of the reality she is going to face and it is painful for her. But, think about it. She came her KNOWING she would not hear that she had done well. Her attitude is apparently pretty normal for a WS still in the fog but out of the affair. I am sure it is too much. Could you face yourself if you did what she did?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most likely off telling her sob story to someone else somewhere else, dont you think? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Probably not, but if she does in the telling, in the revealing, she will still have to face what she KNOWS she did to her family.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just dont get why she would come here and flont herself like that. She even identified herself as a cheater in her screen name, like she's proud of that or something?? So if you can help her, thats great, but I think most of the people in the world dont justify cheating the way she does.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She came here because she needs help and she knows it. She is telling you what and how she thinks. You are getting a glimpse of how a WS justifies their behavior. And yes it seems that most do justify their affairs like she has. If not openly to other people, they do to themselves. Remember she did NOT want it to end. I would bet if you talked to her OW, she thought the same thing, but she doesn't think like that now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My life before H cheated was far from perfect and it'll never be perfect and I would never expect it to be, but when you break vows and promises to your spouse you should be a whole lot more apologetic than she is.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She will be if she has a heart. It just takes time. You must remember that the person she betrayed the most is herself and that if hard to face. She is having a hard time facing herself right now, and reading here I am sure hurts. We are sort of her mirror.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Instead, she still thinks she is entitled to have whatever she wants still. I hope that "someday" that you talked about can come soon for her. I feel so sorry for her H. No, I wouldnt want to be her, but how about a little more sympathy on her part for her H??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It will come Jess, but first she must deal with herself. You are forgetting that to do what she has done, she needed to rewrite a lot of history about herself and her marriage. It takes awhile for all of that to be sorted out in her mind. Right now she hurts too bad to feel any sympathy for her H or family.

But, remember when you first found out about your H, did you feel sympathy for him? Probably not, you were hurting too badly. Yet, in the long run the person hurt the most by your H's affair is your H. He has to see himself in the mirror everyday.

I have an advantage over you, I was not a BS nor a WS. But, my biggest advantage is being here over 5 years and reading thousands and thousands of post. CC is not unique nor is her behavior and thinking at this point. It will change. Will it change enough to safe or rebuild her marriage?? I don't know. I hope so, but it that is to happen all that you would like to see from her and more will have to be forthcoming. I think it will.

You see Jess, CC's post is really a blessing for you. You are seeing what could have happened in your life but did not. I hope you realize that your H has done better than you realize. He could have been like CC which is NOT unusual.

God Bless,
JL

Dr. JL:

Sorry for intruding once again. I have a question:

After D-day my wife was VERY SORRY she even attempted to get down on her knees and I of course stopped her. She dumped the OM and became very attentive. Then a few weeks later she fell into withdrawal and admitted she missed all the high of the affair as well as the voice of the OM on the phone and the sex. The withdrawal is getting better, but now she has taken a different approach in dealing with the affair. She keeps telling me that the affair had positives because it got me into the sperm competition syndrome and now I pay a lot of attention to her. She also states that our sex life has improved and that now we are closer. I don’t deny some of the benefits, but I wonder if she is trying as hard as she can to justify her behavior. But there is more--------- at times the facts about the affair have become the source of jokes among us, but certainly mostly from her part and she teases me with things the OM used to do to get me into---------- according to her “the competition mode”. I have tried to copy the courting style of her OM and she seems to really enjoy it. It is mostly full of sexual innuendos and banter like that. Sometimes she calls me at work at noon and she jokes as follows “I am calling from my lovers bed, we just finished having intercourse”. In other words, she is trying real hard to minimize her affair by incorporating all its elements into our marriage and by joking about it. I must say it has somehow eased my pain, as her acts seem to trivialize her affair.

How do you see this?

I have no idea where we are going with this. She even compares my penis with the OM. The OM was smaller than me-------- not that it means anything, but palleezz…where is this going? Is this healthy? Is this a cheap Freudian mechanism of defense?


CIAO!

Stanley,

Please it is just JL, ok?

To answer your question, I think you are right she is trying to minimize the A. My guess is that she thinks the worst part for you was the sex she had with OM. I am betting that even if that is true, the part that hurts the most are the lies, the deceit, and the lack of LOVE for you this implies.

I realize that you two have used this fantasy for years, but I am guessing that while it still may be useful for you two in bed, it hurts you that she did this.

She is avoiding the consequences of her actions. And the consequences are that she FAILED you and that you may never trust her again. She may like how YOU have responded, but frankly her response is pretty much the same ole same ole. She does NOT want to face herself, nor does she want to admit that you have been hurt and your marriage damaged. Finally, I suspect she feels sex is the MAJOR incredient in the marriage, which of course makes what she did worse. If she claims the sex was NOT important, then it seems to me you need to ask her how come YOU are not seeing actions that suggest she realizes this and how much damage she has done.

Stanely, I cannot answer you, but clearly she is guilt driven and she feels the best defense is a good offense. She does NOT seem to understand that you want to trust her and rely on her and that to date she has offered nothing to you that would lead you to think she is sorry, or that she would avoid doing what she did.

It is time for some thought and talk. I just don't know how to tell you what you need. Here is where a good counselor would help alot. I think if you directly express what I just said, she would withdraw from you, which is NOT necessarily bad, but I think a skilled counselor would help. The Harley's would surely know how to handle this.

Sorry, I can not really offer you any good advice. Communications and honesty are always good, but she may have her FAmily OF Origin, FOO, problems so deep she doesn't see them.

Must go. Have a good weekend.

God Bless,

JL

JL, PhD

I think if you directly express what I just said, she would withdraw from you

You bet! She would shut down and not talk to me. She would also deny me affection and at this time her affection is the only thing that sooths my pain. I have tried to disscuss special deceitful acts that clearly required a lot of premeditation and planning (by her and the OM). The trip my W created so I would go and visit my mom for a few days comes to mind. She manipulated me into flying out of town for a few days.

Why do betrayers, particularly WW clam up like that?

If I had betrayed my wife I would be asking for forgiveness 24/7, read any book I had to, and would invest 200% of my time to save the marrriage.

Why do WWs get so offended if BH points out the deficiencies or the lack of character of the OM/

If I had betrayed my W the last thing I would do would be to defend the OW. In fact I would agree with whatever derrogatory words the BW would say.

How come we are not supposed to show anger? I know I showed anger the onset, but if I do now it is perceived as alove buster. If I had betrayed my wife I would allow anything she wants to say and not refute a single word.

I think we, the faithful husbands have diffrent wiring!

BTW, another thing my wife tells me is that I should have known I was marrying someone who would eventually cheat becasue of her FOO.

ConfusedCheater- if not for the same-sex issue I'd swear you are the woman my husband has been involved with......I'm new here, and I hope I'm not out of line, but I think your spouse would benefit much from this site. If you care for him, why don't you share this with him? Using differnt names, you could both post privately, couldn't you? People like your husband and myself need all the help we can get, too.

JL (and everyone else who posted on this site),

Thanks SO much for your input. I didn't leave the board b/c I couldn't take it; I had health issues that I won't detail here. Reading what I did has already helped me in many ways. I've gotten more out of reading this board than I did with therapy so far.

Just to answer some questions: I didn't go "looking" for an affair. I thought that my marriage was pretty much intact, although I was beginning to change within myself. Midlife crisis? I don't know, but I started losing weight, caring about ME for a change. I still cared deeply for my H and for the children.

About falling in love online, I knew what my friend looked like-we shared pictures over the internet and in real mail. I DID fall in love with her b/c we got to know each other. Part of me loved who she was, part of me wanted to help her and protect her. I'd never met such an extraordinary person. Would I have fallen in love with her if I just met her in "real life"? I don't know. I came to love her for who she was. I didn't expect to fall in love with ANYONE other than my H, especially not with a woman, especially not with a woman that I didn't think I'd be attracted to. Make sense? I think I fell in love with her needing support and love. I thought I'd be her "savior" of some kind.

As far as remorse, I have plenty. Thanks, Jess-Anne for your hateful comments. I didn't come here looking for support. I didn't come here bragging about my affair. I didn't want my cake and to eat it too. I had REAL crossroads to face, and I was trying to sort it all out with the least amount of hurt and pain for everyone. Sorry, but in my head I was in love with 2 people at one time. SHE overshadowed him in the longrun, and how it happened, I don't know, but I know the feelings were real enough to make me think about choosing an alternative life. At the same time I still loved and wanted my H. I know that's selfish and I don't deserve his love nor trust anymore, but that's up to HIM to decide.

At this point, I was in severe depression over losing my friend. The sexual part was over a year ago, and all this time I was hoping it would resume (and it had, to a certain degree, although she didn't want the affair to start again). I haven't been trying to talk to her for MONTHS now, since she's made it clear that she doesn't want to speak to me. The hard part is that I had a decent life here, and it all changed because I felt that she needed me. I wanted to help her and love her b/c she wasn't getting that elsewhere. I wanted to give her everything she wasn't getting. I tried and she STILL wasn't happy. She said that I was never fully happy either, and she's right. It's because deep in my heart I knew that she wanted her H first and foremost to fall in love with her the way she dreamed about. Maybe she has that now with him; I don't know. Her fear with me was that my H and I would go back to how we were before she met me.

I HAVE told my H about this board. He's a very busy man, and he doesn't like to talk about this too much. He hasn't even asked me much about my whole scenario. We're working on that in MC. I want him to talk to me, ask me questions, be mad at me, etc. That's the only way we'll heal, in my book. Well, that along with MY coming to realizations too...

In any event, I'm still in the "fog" state. I'm sick and sorry over everything. I'm trying to determine how I came to nearly losing everything for this woman. I'm trying to realize why I fell in love with her and why I let our relationship take such precidence in my life. I'm trying to realize how I loved 2 people at once, and how I justified it in my head. I'm still FAR away from all of that, because it was all so real to me. She and I had love, and it was real, and I'm still grieving for what I lost with her (our love AND our friendship). I'm grieving for my H too, and for my children. I put them all through a lot.

I'll continue reading here. JL, thank you again. You are a very special person.

CC

P.S.

Can I ask one more question?? I recently found out that one of my sisters has had an affair (with a man). I suspected it years ago and never asked her. Funny, SHE was persistant in grilling me about my gf. Now I know why-she said that she wanted to protect me from the affair, and she didn't want me to go through what she went through.

Here's the question: Is every affair the same scenario? Does every cheater go through the fog? Does every cheater want to put their marriage back on track? Because my sister never did tell her husband. She also never stopped contact with her lover. She ended the sex part, but he's still in her life (they do business together). So, does her marriage not stand a chance b/c she didn't tell him? She's in therapy, they've both been in MC, and she's trying her own way to put her life back together. So, which way is right or wrong??? Just curious.......

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ConfusedCheater:

Here's the question: Is every affair the same scenario? Does every cheater go through the fog?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, there are different types of affairs but they usually tend to fall into EA [emotional affairs] or PA [physical affairs].

If there was some significant emotional investment with the OP, then the WS does indeed go through the fog. But in the case of a ONS [one night stand] or short fling [a weekend of sex] with no or very little emotional investment that distorts reality then the WS does not go through the fog.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does every cheater want to put their marriage back on track?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No because it depends on the cheater, the type of affair, and the state of his/her marriage. During the time a WS is involved in an affair, the WS is in a mindset where the consequences to their spouses, family and marriage are far outside his/her radar scope otherwise he/she would stop the affair dead in its track.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because my sister never did tell her husband. She also never stopped contact with her lover. She ended the sex part, but he's still in her life (they do business together). So, does her marriage not stand a chance b/c she didn't tell him? She's in therapy, they've both been in MC, and she's trying her own way to put her life back together. So, which way is right or wrong??? Just curious.......</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The problem with your sister's non disclosure of her affair is that she is showing very little respect and love for her H because she is DECEIVING and MANIPULATING him to remain married to her [her continued contact with the OM is an example of this disrespect and manipulation]. Why don't you ask her how she would feel if she discovered that her H had an affair years ago and he was still seeing the OW? I'd be willing to bet that she would be more hurt by her H's DECEPTION and his MANIPULATION than with the affair itself.

She may beleive that to tell her H would be cruel and would destroy him BUT this beleif is just a front to disguise her selfishness because she doesn't want to face the possibility that her H may decide to end the marriage which is his [and her] right to do so. In other words, your sister doesn't want to face the consequences of her actions.

Keep in mind that NOBODY is forced to remain married to another person if he/she does not want to irregardless of whether there are/aren't any problems in the marriage. We are all FREE to end our marriages at a moments notice. It should be love and respect that should keeps us married and never lies and deception.

<small>[ September 04, 2004, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

I think that in my sister's case (and in mine!) our husbands had a strong inkling about it but were afraid to ask questions. (btw, my sister's affair was long and an emotional and physical one. She's remained friendly-only with the guy). When I told my husband (D-Day), he wasn't surprised AT ALL. He knows me pretty well. I thought I had him convinced that my girlfriend and I were "only friends" because up until then I showed NO signs of ever being attracted to a woman, and besides that, she was not the type that I'd normally be attracted to, so it was kinda way out there to believe that it happened.

BTW, one more question (and I appreciate everyone's input up til now!): My girlfriend has posted things on a messageboard (months ago) about me, after our breakup. She made me sound like the aggressor. She said that she was in an "abusive sexual relationship". That hurt. A lot. It WAS mutual, and I'm sitting on tons of proof of that. She was in it willingly, and she reassured me of that all along. So, how could she manipulate things and make herself sound like a victim now? How will she ever resolve things in her head if she can't come to terms with her being a willing participant with me for 3 years?? I'm sure that this is how she's getting support (from her husband, family, and "friends" on messageboards). They're all feeling sorry for her and accusing ME of being this horrible person, when I know that she and I were in it together. THAT is what I would have liked to clear up, and I could have gotten on with this whole process more easily. I know in my heart that we were in it together, and it just further malaigns me. I do feel badly enough for everything else, and I didn't need to hear (from someone that I felt SO close to for SO long) that I was the pursuer and evil one.

I know I won't get any support from many people here on that topic, but it's one thing that's preventing me from moving forward and dealing with all that I have to deal with. I just wish I had more closure so that I could have moved on.

Well cc, I'm sorry you found my comments to be mean but for gods sake what did you expect? Why dont you try reading some of the posts here from people who found out that there spouses were cheating on them and maybe you might start coming out of that fog. You might see what really happens to real people -- people who were going along in their marriages and being really devoted to their spouses but the WS got too selfish and greedy. Nobody would have faulted you for ending your marriage FIRST and then having a relationship with the OW. But you were deceitful and dishonest. So dont expect a pat on the back from the betrayed spouses -- or anyone for that matter.

It seems like being deceitful runs in your family if your sister has an ongoing relationship with the OM in her life. And how many of us do you think believes you and her that it is a "friendly-only" relationship now???? Look at you, so desperrate to have your girlfriend back -- like YOU wouldnt get involved with her again if she showed up back in your life???? What makes you think your sister is any better? There's a reason why the suggestions on this site are to totally cut off contact. My H had to quit his job and find a new one to do it, but he did it.

As for your GF posting things on a message board about you. Why do you care? You are doing exactly the same thing here! Do you think that your reasons for doing it are better than hers? do you think that youa re above her? How are we all to know that you didn't pressure her? You would never tell us here. Besides all that, nobody knows you. Or her. Do people know you personally on that other board? If they dont then why do you care? why don't you just leave her alone to let her deal with her own problems her own way. You have said she has made it perfectly clear that she has left you alone -- why don't you just leave her alone too? Why are you reading that message board anyway?

And why do you care what she is saying to friends or her family?? You are no longer in her life and she told you so. Leave her alone and let her put her life back together. Its pretty cowardly to keep her dragged down with you. You have enough of your own problems to deal with you dont need hers too. You dont have any right to know what she is doing or how she is doing it. You were in the wrong so deal with your own wrongs. If you can. Good luck.

CC,

You got some good answers from the Coffeeman. It is good to see you here again Coffeeman, it has been a long time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can I ask one more question?? I recently found out that one of my sisters has had an affair (with a man). I suspected it years ago and never asked her. Funny, SHE was persistant in grilling me about my gf. Now I know why-she said that she wanted to protect me from the affair, and she didn't want me to go through what she went through.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, CC, once you have been through this as your sister, or you have been around it here on this site, the red flags are pretty obvious. It does seem she is trying to save you from not only doing what she DID but what she is DOING. It is a sad thing, that she is doing to her H.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here's the question: Is every affair the same scenario? Does every cheater go through the fog? Does every cheater want to put their marriage back on track? Because my sister never did tell her husband. She also never stopped contact with her lover. She ended the sex part, but he's still in her life (they do business together). So, does her marriage not stand a chance b/c she didn't tell him? She's in therapy, they've both been in MC, and she's trying her own way to put her life back together. So, which way is right or wrong??? Just curious.......</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Coffeeman gave you some great answers. I will second them, and say that there are uncanny patters, including word by word statements that most WS’s tell their BS. Starting with the “I love you but I am NOT in love with you.” It is why a plan such as MB does work more often than one would suspect. The commonalities are huge. But there are exceptions and there are what are called “exit affairs”, where the WS does nothing to help the BS and simply wants out. It often pretty painful to watch and pretty cruel.

As for your sister, she is still having an A, it is simply an EA. If she were not she would not need OM as a friend, and she would not be disrespecting her H as she is. It is unlikely that therapy or MC will work as long as she is in the A. Too much lying going on for the counselor to help IF the counselor is competent. If the counselor is not, and a surprising number are not, then it will not help.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that in my sister's case (and in mine!) our husbands had a strong inkling about it but were afraid to ask questions. (btw, my sister's affair was long and an emotional and physical one. She's remained friendly-only with the guy). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you considered the unique H*LL it must be to “know” your spouse is cheating and lying to you, but not be sure? It is my firm hope that YOU never have to endure such pain and uncertainty in your life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I told my husband (D-Day), he wasn't surprised AT ALL. He knows me pretty well. I thought I had him convinced that my girlfriend and I were "only friends" because up until then I showed NO signs of ever being attracted to a woman, and besides that, she was not the type that I'd normally be attracted to, so it was kinda way out there to believe that it happened.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is one of the aspects of the “fog”, it never occurred to you to consider that your H knew you well enough to sense the changes in your, to strongly suspect your betrayal. It never occurred to you that your behaviors were more transparent than you realized. And it never occurred to you that although your H suspected, he did his best to save the marriage and to love you. It is the way of the “fog”, but when you come out of it and you ponder what you have done, this will eat at you,if you have a conscience.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTW, one more question (and I appreciate everyone's input up til now!): My girlfriend has posted things on a messageboard (months ago) about me, after our breakup. She made me sound like the aggressor. She said that she was in an "abusive sexual relationship". That hurt. A lot. It WAS mutual, and I'm sitting on tons of proof of that. She was in it willingly, and she reassured me of that all along. So, how could she manipulate things and make herself sound like a victim now? How will she ever resolve things in her head if she can't come to terms with her being a willing participant with me for 3 years?? I'm sure that this is how she's getting support (from her husband, family, and "friends" on messageboards).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok CC, I apologize, I am sitting here smiling. You asked how could she make herself sound like a victim? You just told us the A just happened that you had NO control over becoming involved in the A. Does this sound a little like the same thing? It is. &#61514; You need not worry about your OW. She is in another country, she is trying to address the same reality you are: How could I have done this thing and hurt so many people? She is looking for reason and yes excuses. If she keeps looking if you keep looking you will realize this happened because you WANTED IT TO. The only remaining question is: why did you want to do this and hurt your H and family as you did? Burn the “proof” it will do you know good, and it won’t PROVE a darned thing. You both know you did this because you wanted to do it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> They're all feeling sorry for her and accusing ME of being this horrible person, when I know that she and I were in it together. THAT is what I would have liked to clear up, and I could have gotten on with this whole process more easily. I know in my heart that we were in it together, and it just further malaigns me. I do feel badly enough for everything else, and I didn't need to hear (from someone that I felt SO close to for SO long) that I was the pursuer and evil one. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whether you need it or not you hearing it is YOUR choice. You chose to follower her onto a site. You chose to read what she writes. You chose to worry about a woman that no one knows on her site, and you are choosing to hang on to this as if it will somehow make right what you did to your family and H. She is dealing with the aftermath of this mess her way. The only thing that is clearly true is that her behavior in this mess is very embarrassing to her and she seems to regret it. Hence the blame shifting. It is not uncommon among WS’s.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know I won't get any support from many people here on that topic, but it's one thing that's preventing me from moving forward and dealing with all that I have to deal with. I just wish I had more closure so that I could have moved on.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nah! It is preventing nothing of the sort. You are choosing to focus on this minor thing rather than face the big issues before you. It is easier to do, so that is what you are doing.

Must go, but do think about what Coffeeman and I have said. It is time you quit worrying about her, and started worrying about yourself, your H, and your family. You have years worth of pain inflicted on him to address within yourself and with him.

God Bless,

JL

Once again, thank you for your replies.

My sister's continued relationship with her "friend" is that of a business relationship only. She told me that SHE ended the affair and that he wanted her back for a while, but she distanced herself. They live in a small community and she's well known there, and has to have some business dealings with this man. She told me that even though he tells her he still wants her back, she's been able to resist temptation again and has concentrated on her marriage, but she said that when she's feeling down or weak, it IS still a temptation. She has no reason to lie to me, so I doubt it's anything more than a business relationship now.

As far as my girlfriend, Jess Anne, she and I were able to remain friends for nearly a year, even though I was still in love with her. I respected her wishes and we remained as friends. She DID go over the line with me a few times during that time period though. But mostly we were friends, and anything sexual or romantic was off-limits in her mind. So, if she were still in my life right now, I'm pretty sure that it would be the same. I doubt she'd be too tempted to go back to how we were. I know I would have dreamed for that, but a lot has happened to prevent it.

JL, thanks again for more to think about. I *am* trying to think of my girlfriend less and less. I am trying not to worry about her so much. I'm trying not to figure everything out. I'm trying not to go over our whole relationship and second guess everything. I'm trying not to read her message board posts now (she's stopped posting anyway!). I'm trying to realize that she and I fell into the A together and we're both accountable. You're right--she's handling it in her own way, and I must admit that I'm worried for her. I KNOW that she's more fragile than I am (mentally), so I worry. I know it's not my place to worry or even think about her anymore, but when I've worried about her and cared about her SO deeply for 3 years, day in and day out, it's hard to break that cycle. I believe that part of her will always be in my heart. I don't know if she feels the same way.

My H and I are getting along a little better these past few days. It's probably because I'm concentrating less on the A and more on him/us and our children. I realize it's a long road ahead and I'm blessed to have him in my life. We have a lot of work to do though!!

Thanks again for all of your comments! Have a good night.

CC

ConfusedCheater,

You have made a great effort in trying to explain yourself and find some help. Your initial letter captured my wife and I last night. We read it with great interest.

I also am like you, in that I was a wayward spouse who used email to betray my wife. Thousands of miles seemed like sufficient insurance to prevent any sexual contact. (it wasn't) With that thought in mind, my other woman (a childhood friend) and I began telling each other our problems and supporting each other until we more intimate than I knew it was possible to become. It's intoxicating to have the love of another person. It's also impossible to have two such people. You have to choose one or the other. Telling yourself that is not fair, is a lie.

You have been sharply criticized and I don't think that is what you need. Or better said, you are in no mental position to use such critique. And I do mean mental, not emotional. It appears that you have stumbled into MarriageBuilders as one of your first attempts in a search for a remedy. Two things are very evident in your story. There are many counter dictions. And you are looking for a way to remain in the euphoria that you had with your female lover.

The euphoria of a new love is a gift to human kind. It's one of the most heavenly experiences of our lives. The soaring positive emotions is why we commit to our spouse, and why we have become civilized. Because shortly after our bond to this wonderful new person is made, we have children, life begins, and it's tough. We ALL long for the euphoria of a new love. But most of us have the brains to figure out what's happening and avoid it. You and I didn't.

I found help, and you are looking for it. In a way, the internet helped to get me into my affair, but it also helped to get me out. I found Dr. Harley's wisdom via internet. I believe you have just found this forum. You haven't done your homework and I think you'll get little respect here or anywhere else until you do.

The first action that you need to do is order two copies of "How to Survive an Affair". One for you and one for your husband. This term "fog" is not from Harley but a very appropriate one for you to understand. You can not think rationally while you are in love with this woman. It wasn't until months of no communication with my lover that I could start to see how ridicules my goals were. Yes I loved my lover, but so what? If you understood the mechanism of human love you would realize that we can love anybody, any number of people, but then we would become only the animals that we evolved from.

Dr. Harley has reversed engineered the process of human love. The blue prints of how and why you love are all made extremely evident in his books. You are presently incapable of correcting your situation. Mainly, because you don't want to. And your husband isn't helping.

The worse thing your husband could have done is forgive you. You don't deserve it. He needs to read the Affair book worse than you do. If my wife hadn't kick my [censored] when I tried to rationalize my affair to her I'd still be in it today. That means that I would have moved out of my home, shamed myself and my honor further, taught my kids that I am truly a fool, all to start over again in a relationship of trying to get what I want from another human being with the same maturity and failed techniques that I used with my wonderful wife of 24 years. I've woken up.

Not having the euphoria of a new lover is not a fair measurement of the success of a marriage. It's naive to have the expectation. Free yourself form such an expectation and start reading.

Dave,

Thanks for your input. I only have a minute here, but I'll address some of your comments.

I not only used email as a form of communication with my girlfriend; we spoke daily on the phone, and we had 9 weeks together during the past 2 and a half years. I *did* come to rely on her, and we invested a lot of time and emotion into our affair. We ran to each other to share good news/bad news, instead of going to our husbands, who were otherwise busy or not interested. It was a euphoria to have someone there to WANT to hear from me for so many hours a day.

I agree that I was/am in love with her, and it's been nearly FOUR months now that she and I haven't spoken. I've gone over some old letters and emails and am finally seeing things a little differently. Red flags are there. She sounded more and more like my H. Perhaps if this A had gone on, she and I would have been a little more disinterested in each other too. I don't know. All I know is that I'm STILL thinking of her, four months later, questioning things and wondering if she misses me, etc., when she told me for so long that she couldn't live without me. I guess I should have realized that she didn't know what she wanted, because she tried to end the romance time and time again (only to come back to me).

I'm just beginning my research here, and I'll get the book you mentioned. My H has a long way to go before he actually forgives me, and he's just beginning to show his emotions and tell me how disappointed he was. I know I have a lot more coming in that regard.

Thank you for saying what you did about my mental/emotional state. You are right. I feel so weak and upside down with everything that's taken place. In a short period of time I lost my lover/best friend, and I hurt my H deeply. My whole world turned upside down and I'm to blame. I went into the A knowingly. She did too.

For some reason I feel that my H and I will work through things. We've been close for so long. I know that we have a long way to go.

Thanks for your advice. I'll post more when I'm able.

CC

ConfusedCheater

I have to disagree with you, you haven't been away from your lover for four months. It doesn't sound like you've been away from her for four minutes.

My friend and I had been parted for four months before I finally threw away everything. Especially the emails. Every time you read them you are bonding again and feeling sorry for yourself. The emails are not a treasure, they are a burden, they are poison. Erase them and burn them, and every photo, gift and card she ever sent you. You have them printed right, backed up on floppies, just in case your hard drive crashes? Until you destroy everything that represents this mistake you made, you will still be living it. You are just kidding yourself. I know what you are going through.

When you get rid of everything with no possibly of recovering it, then you can claim that you have parted from her, ended the affair and start counting the months. You're still in the affair, only your friend has left.

As your email name implies, you are confused. With that I sympathize. Believe me, getting out of an affair is not like driving a car. In extinguishing an affair, your forward vision is frosted over and the rear view mirror is crystal clear. I do wish you good luck. Find help and a friend in your husband. I can almost promise you, there is more there than you realize. You have to learn how to ask for what you want. Read the books from Harley.

I'm new here, so apolizgies on protocol, but this was one of the most ridiculous stories I've read. I assume there are worse stories, but I've read enough. I learned years ago that most people can't break bad habits or "lifescipts" that were "baked" as a child. Poor decision making is the result and CC is a great example! I refuse to give anyone a second chance for infidelity. Once a cheater, always cheater, is my motto. I hope she is a fluke and these sort of things are infrequent, but I know better.
Forgive me while I pass judgement. I have no love for you CC. To be blunt, people like you suck!