Keep thinking, CC, you'll get there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And keep thinking about your H as a sexual being. He is. Even if he IS getting more conservative.

The changes in you and him, in terms of rebellius vs. conservative, by the way, DON'T spell doom for your relationship. I'd actually look at it as a great opportunity to learn new things about someone you've known forever. That's good stuff. Tasty, and all.

As for the explorations of sex, I'm glad you've been there and done that. That you don't feel all that sexual right now doesn't much change my description of you as bisexual, by which I simply mean you're able to enjoy sex and be attracted to both men and women. And really, it sounds to me like you've had sexual relationships with two people in your life -- one man and one woman. Perhaps your attractions would tell you which you really lean towards, and perhaps not.

I understand the deal about finding a label for yourself. It's important to know how to describe yourself in your own mind, and the "self" who had this external relationship hasn't yet fully figured out who she is and what her name and description are.

Some of those names could be pretty ugly, some of 'em could be pretty cool. I vote for the cool ones, myself.

Oh, and the whole deal about not feeling all that sexual right now? How's "not much desire right now" or "libido gone missing, reward if found"?

Warm ashes,

Thank you for responding again, and checking this thread. It means a lot to me.

What you said has left me with goosebumps! Strange that just yesterday I told the MC that in my relationship with my GF was parallel to my relationship with my H, only the opposite way around. In my relationship with my GF, I was the one who was looking for her reassurance (which my H does with me). I was the one pursuing her more often. She was the one who was more reserved about the relationship, more casual (like I am with my H). She reminded me a LOT of my H and a lot of me too, so you're absolutely right!!!!!!!! I DID see some of me in her, and I DID bond with her, and this loss seems like I've lost a big part of myself and it's scary to me. I feel like a part of me died.

I can't believe how right you are about that. So, how much more will I have to realize before I am ready to go on with my life and find happiness? I guess all of this reading and realizing helps, huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What's also funny is that my GF often reminded me when I was pursuing our sexual relationship after she had ended it, that my H must be feeling like I am, only worse. She was always well aware of how everyone in our circle was probably feeling. I'm sure it's why she ended it. She said that she couldn't take the double life and the secrets anymore, and she felt such guilt towards my H, whom she felt really trusted her and befriended her. Funny, I hardly ever felt guilty or bad about it (actually not funny, huh?). I felt like I was giving her the love that she had been missing her whole life. I tried to fill up in her what she was lacking. For a while I think I did, but she realized that she had to do that for herself.

I'm realizing more and more each day. I tried to help her, and I was on sure-footed ground in the beginning of our A, and then I ended up being the weak one who desperately needed and depended on her. How'd that happen??? That's not like me--needing someone that badly & having such low self-esteem. This is all a first for me...

Anyway, what you said was VERY true, and it makes things a little more tolerable. Thank you.

About the mother comment... that's how I feel--that it IS the most important job, and my job is not done yet. It's not an excuse, but when/if my children are okay (and my dd's anxiety is lessened), then I'll start to think about what I want to do with my free time. For now I want to make sure that she's healthy, and that my son is healthy, and that I'm watching over them, yet giving them enough freedom to be confident adults. I'm nowhere near ready to go to work, even part time, until my DD is back in school full time and she's okay about it. I think we have a way to go.

What I do know is that I have to be strong in order to help her, and I've been around much more as a result of losing my GF, so maybe that's the good part about this. Hopefully my dd will be strong enough to go back to school fulltime very soon!! For now, my job is taking care of her, my son, my household, and my H. Hope that sits well with the MC!! If not, I'll seek other counsel.

Thanks again for your words. They meant a lot to me!

CC

JJ,

Thank you for the labeling/sexual identity info. It's helpful. What I'm scared of is the possibiility of being more attracted to women than men, but I guess time will tell?? If I became attracted to my GF, then can't I be attracted to another woman? What if I can only be sexual when thinking/acting with another woman? That scares me, so I'm a little leary of it.

The fact that I've been attracted to men my entire life, and only to ONE woman, just means to me that the sex of the person really didn't matter to me. I saw my GF as a PERSON first, and to me, it was liberating to know I could be attracted to her. The sex part with her was very special, but I think that it was because of HER that I was attracted in the first place.

I haven't thought about another woman, nor been attracted to any woman since her (or even when I was with her), so I think that she was a one-shot deal. I know, I'm sounding too scared of this whole label thing, aren't I? I'm just trying to figure it all out!

Hopefully I'll see my H in a more sexual way more and more every day. I hope so!!!!!!!!

Thanks for your kind words and for your insight. Thank you for taking time to check back here. It means a lot to me!

CC

Warm ashes,

One more thing (sorry to go on and on, but I'm having brainstorming here!), my GF initially told me that she wanted to BE me. She admired so much about me. I found that to not only be scary, but wrong. I tried to convince her to be herself, but you know what?? Over time, she found herself trying to be like me anyway, because she said that she knew it pleased me!!!!!! Here's an example: She told me that she knew she was in trouble in our relationship when she was driving in her car, listening to a cd that she knows I like. She said that she couldn't wait to come and tell me she was listening to it, so she could please me. BUT, in reality she didn't even like the cd. She had conformed to what she thought I'd like!!!!!! Strange, huh?

I guess she was right--I wanted her to be somewhat like me--I wanted her to be all poetic, romantic, outgoing, etc. So, I DID see myself in her a bit. But the real her was someone shy, quiet, intelligent, reserved, compassionate and lacking self-esteem.

Anyway, more food for thought!!

CC

CC, I have read your whole post right from the day you came on here.

I am one of the people that JL pointed you to as our situations are extremely similar (apart from the same-sex situation which I actually don't think is the issue here.)

If I substitute the letters OM where you have written GF you are telling my story and probably the story of all the WW's on here. Different circumstances obviously but same feelings.

The way I see it is that the betrayal of your H is identical to the betrayal of my H.

I was not going to lose what I knew I had for 27 years even though I felt I would never love my H again or get over the OM. My A was 18 months long with my old HS boyfriend.

My H was totally devestated when he found about my A. I had no idea he loved me so totally and completely. I just don't know how to put this but once I saw the total hurt and devestation I was determined never to hurt him again. I had NO idea how I was going to get our marriage back or my love for him back but once I found MB and started going to MC with my H I found the tools to do this. My H also fought for me with every ounce of his being.

It's been a long and hard road with many bumps in it but it has been worth it to rediscover the love for my H and to know I have done the right thing for everybody.

Jen

KiwiJ,

Thanks for posting. There are a few differences with our stories. My A lasted nearly 3 years. I'm also NOT certain that I'll never love my H again as I did. I'm in a state of confusion where he's concerned. I'm NOT surprised at his love and support that he's shown me these past few months. Sounds pretty self-confident, but I'm certain that in tough situations, we'd support each other as we always have. I *do* acknowledge that I've hurt him-pretty badly. I do acknowledge that he was taken aback by my lack of fidelity. I was/am too.

We are working with the MC and I'm trying to find out where we stand. I guess time will tell. Thanks for posting.

CC

I read all these posts about affairs and how my W betrayed me. My wife is a nice person, not a bad bone in her body, But, then I look at some of the things she did--------- I also read about what others have done------------- and I have to conclude that unfaithful folks seem to lose their marbles at some point during the affair. Is there any other explanation------- these folks simply lose contact with reality!

BTW, my wife is becoming very sexual again------- daily activity now. She claims the affair increased my libido and that is good. She told me she was falling for me all over again. She even sent me an email to ask my honest opinion about her OM. She still jokes with me about the OM , ect.

Who knows what is going on? She almost never talks seriously.

<small>[ September 09, 2004, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

CC,

I think you missed something in what KiwiJ said. Now that she has posted to you, use her member Id number and the search function to look up her earliest posts here. You will see very similar statements made by her as are being made by you.

It may help you see things if you look at them from a different angle.

As for your H, and your feelings for him, I think one of the issues that you are going to have to face is how much you have taken him for granted and how much you still are. You are at more risk of losing him from a major portion of your life than you think. I would like to strongly suggest that your judgement with regard to relationships is NOT all that good right now.

If you doubt me, then consider that you felt that your OW would stay with you and that your love for one another would prevail over all else. You also felt that your marriage to your H would protect you, so you did not protect yourself or your marriage. And the result was... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I know you are still sorting things out, and I know you may decide to leave your H, but I do hope you realize that if you do you will lose far more than you seem to think you will. What I worry about the most is that you won't get that chance to decide. He is very vulnerable right now, and extremely hurt and damaged. If it truely takes you a year to figure out what you want, the odds are high it won't make any difference by then. Most people keep their hand in the fire for only so long.

I also realize there is nothing I can say, that will make you see things differently. What I am hoping is that something I or others say will get you "thinking" instead of just "feeling".

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ September 09, 2004, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

JL,

I will look up those posts as soon as I have a little more time. I just sliced my finger open while cooking. I don't THINK I need a stitch, but it's still bleeding (as I'm typing with one hand!).

Anyway, I'll take your advice into consideration. What you said was true--I must not be good with my judgment right now because I NEVER thought that my GF would end things, and I'm probably taking for granted my H's patience and loyalty. However, we've had some decent days lately and I'm hoping it'll only get better, the more I come to terms with the damage that I did. I'm definitely still in the fog though, and missing my GF and missing her as my best friend. But I find that I'm not as depressed as I have been. I even went out today and bought some cd's, which was nice. Music has always been my passion and inspiration, and it brings me some peace.

Anyway, I'll try to read more and keep my H in mind more. Thanks.

CC

CC,

While in withdrawal you are going to have to deal with a shift in focus and perspective. One of things I'm trying to do is get you to see your H differently. Specifically, to return your sense of empathy. Right now your focus is on your LOSS and pain. But as you can change your focus so that you can see things through your H's eyes, some surprising things will start to happen.

That is what we are waiting for. Once you can see things through his eyes, you will see yourself differently, you will see your marriage differently, and you will see your future differently. If you accomplish this then the next step is to get him to see things through your eyes. He may be doing some of that now. But, lack of confidence, lack of trust, and lack of self-esteem will limit him.

Here he will need your help and you will need his help. I am being very brief as I must leave for a meeting but the idea is get to a point where you see things more from his perspective. At that point, you will be able to make some decisions and so will he.

It takes time and effort but you can do it.

God Bless,

JL

CC, I think you're onto something with the CDs... and with anything else that you can do to focus on your life right now, in this moment. There is really nothing else, after all. Your life, in this moment, is the most precious thing you have. The more you can pay attention to what's right in front of you, the better. You won't trip over your feet so often, and your mind will be more at ease, too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

JL,

Sorry I haven't been online to check the posts. I've been busy with the kids' school, etc. We just had our kittens spayed/neutered today and I've been nursing them. It's good to take my mind off of things for a while!

Thanks for your input (as usual). I *am* beginning to see things from H's perspective. I DO feel badly about him getting hurt over all of this. He's taken a 1 night trip with friends to go deep sea fishing, and I think it's good for him to get out (he never did that enough in the past!). It also gives me time to actually miss him, since we're near each other constantly. On top of that, it gives me time to bond alone with my kids, and it gives me some time to ponder things.

I'm STILL somewhat obsessed with my ex-gf and how it all went so wrong, and how she came to seemingly depise me and view me as the "evil one" in our relationship, when for nearly 3 years I was so special to her. That part still hurts me deeply and I keep on going over in my head that had this ended nicer, I'd be much better off. Had she finally told me that she couldn't talk to me anymore and that she had to repair her marriage, I'd probably be better off. Had she told me that it DID mean something to her, I'd be okay. But I feel foolish for investing that time and energy and taking the risks I did for someone who ultimately doesn't know me and was able to cut me out of her life without hesitation. I don't know if that makes sense.

I have to say though, that it's on my mind MUCH less than it has been. I'm not tempted to read her old mails, letters and such. The box of them is put away. My mind just wanders there befoe I drift off to sleep, and when little things remind me of what I'm missing with her, I get sick. Bear in mind, I get SICK when I think of what all this has done to my H too. And I get sick when I think that I'm putting him through so much by my indecision. I know he won't last forever while I'm figuring things out! I want to be fair to him (I know--that's pretty funny coming from the spouse who cheated on him!).

Anyway, thanks again. I'll let you know of my progress, if any.

CC

JJ,

Thanks for that post today. Music has always been key in my life. I shared one of the cd's with my H, knowing what he'd like, and he was very happy to hear it. He made a copy for himself. It's nice to expose him to new musicians that I'll know he'll like, and he is always grateful for my input.

Besides that, it's nice to hear new music, and especially nice when it doesn't remind me of the sadness I've been feeling!

Thanks again for sharing. I can only hope that I see my way out of this mess and start feeling like "me" again.

CC

So... CC. Tell me about your husband, would you? I mean, REALLY tell me. Dig deep, here. How did you meet? When did you fall in love? What time of year was it? How does he smell? What's the funniest thing he's ever done? What wonderful things happened when your children were born? Tell me about a time when you struggled, together, to get through a difficult situation. Talk to me about the first place you lived together, the best walk you ever took together, the most beautiful scenery you ever saw together. Come on, lay it all out, here. I wanna know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

JL,

Had a busy day, but I just saw your post: So... CC. Tell me about your husband, would you? I mean, REALLY tell me. Dig deep, here. How did you meet? When did you fall in love? What time of year was it? How does he smell? What's the funniest thing he's ever done? What wonderful things happened when your children were born? Tell me about a time when you struggled, together, to get through a difficult situation. Talk to me about the first place you lived together, the best walk you ever took together, the most beautiful scenery you ever saw together. Come on, lay it all out, here. I wanna know.

I'll try to answer it: We met in college (which, strangely enough, we bought a house 19 years ago that is AROUND THE CORNER from that university!). He was my sister's friend (she had a bf). He became my friend. We were dating various other people. He was outgoing, friendly, flirty. I thought he had a thing for my sister (which he admitted to later on). We became friendly, and just fell in love one day. He mentioned something about "trophy wives" to which I was offended, but I thought we got along well.

The transition from friends to dating was VERY awkward for me. The first time we kissed (in his car), I couldn't stop laughing because I still viewed him as a friend. We got over that stage quickly! We instantly became inseparable--both being from children of alcoholic fathers--we had a bond.

We started dating in March of 1980 (I'm dating myself here!). We didn't have sex for 2 months (my call!!) into the dating, and we were engaged beforehand. We got engaged and waited until he finished law school until we got married.

Our honeymoon was eventful-he was awaiting word about passing/failing the bar exam, and he nearly died on our honeymoon (anaphalatic reaction to shrimp). Two months before the honeymoon, I nearly died from a choking incident. Exciting, huh?

Also, on the honeymoon, I got a SEVERE sunburn (yes, we DID venture outside occasionally! LOL).

We moved into a sweet apartment and played house happily. We entertained, and seemingly were good at it. We both had successful careers, and took vacations together. We moved into our house (where we currently still are) a year later. We quit our jobs and worked together from our home. We were VERY, VERY successful. Working together was perfect--we didn't even get on each other's nerves!

We planned on having children 2 years later, and got pregnant within 6 months. Uneventful, healthy pregnancy, except for the 9 months of feeling naseous! 30 hours of difficult labor later, we had our first healthy child-a dd. I cut back on work to occasional part-time, and H hired a friend of mine. We both agreed that we wanted me home, nurturing our baby. I LOVED, LOVED, LOVED being a mom. Money wasn't an issue, and my whole world revolved around the baby and my H. Perfect.

This is when H and I stopped our alone time. We no longer took ONE DAY AND NIGHT away alone. Everything was geared towards the baby and a happy life. We thought we had it all. H and I spent our down time together, talking about the baby and our lives when we were apart during the day. He was FULLY interested in every aspect of our dd's life. The only time H and I would go out alone would be for special occasions (birthdays, our anniversary) and we couldn't wait to come home to our dd. She had pretty severe separation anxiety, plus, we didn't wholeheartedly trust anyone!

Time marched on and we wanted a playmate for dd. I got pregnant immediately. The children are 2 years apart. This pregnancy was a bit scary. H started getting tense. Money became an issue. Bad business ventures. We were still ultimately happy. All we wanted was a happy family life and everything we lacked growing up. Our son turned out to happily be healthy, despite all of the medical scares during my pregnancy.

H and I still didn't spend too much time alone, save for our evenings when the children went to bed. Our ds wasn't as good at sleeping as our dd, so things slowly changed. We did still have many nightly "dates" and spiced our sex life up. We were very much in love, and thought we could get through anything, having gone through our ds' medical issues and our then-current financial woes.

Time marched on. We had many friends, but a small circle of close friends. We still entertained. There were stresses though--money, work (H's job), some family issues (extended family). We didn't go away on vacations as a family--too pressed for time and lack of money. We were stressed, but still happy. H and I enjoyed our time alone together. We'd watch tv together. I'd sit at his feet and he'd rub my hair. We'd have candle lit evenings downstairs while the children slept upstairs. Seemingly perfect.

As for funny H moments, I could fill the board with them! He's seemingly serious, yet a little clumsy. He's fallen into ditches, fallen over furniture, set tablecloths on fire (while trying to be romantic). I laughed a lot at him (he laughed too!!). I'd call him "Inspector Cluseau" (sp??). He has a dry, intelligent humor, but I found him to be the funniest when he was serious, yet clumsy. I've relayed some of these stories to our children, and he didn't take offense. He mocks me too--we have a very twisted, dry sense of humor here (they all like Monty Python, just so you realize the humor here!).

Okay, the most beautiful scenary we saw together? Had to be in Bermuda. We've also been to the Bahamas and Barbados, but Bermuda was by far the most beautiful. We also went to Disney while I was pregnant with dd. We often said we'd go back to Bermuda for our 10th anniversary (too poor), our 15th (too busy) and our 20th (too busy and I was in the A, so I wasn't too willing to go away with him for an extended period of time).

Trying to think of what else you'd want to know about H. He's the serious, level-headed one. I'm the more nutty, carpe-diem type. My friends call me a "rock star". I just always had a zest for life. You could see it in my eyes and in my smile. My son is the same way. My daughter is more like my H. Anyway, the older we get, the more I see how different H and I are. He's getting even MORE conservative and he shocks me. Recently he spoke about gay marriage and I nearly flipped out (this was before he knew of my A with a woman!). He was always intelligent and fair. Now he's MUCH more conservative. We have MANY more differences. He laughs less, is more stressed, and is interested in different things than I am. We used to enjoy walks, playing tennis together, playing basketball, etc. I rarely enjoy outdoor activities anymore, save for tanning on a beach and swimming in a pool.

We rarely watch movies or tv together anymore either. He's come to mock my choice of "light" entertainment. He's interested in more violent, artistic movies. I can't see anything even remotely suspenseful or scary. My mind is odd like that! So, we don't really have a lot of down time together. He'd prefer to read his science magazines, watch poker on tv, watch baseball on tv, etc. I prefer to go online, watch happy, mindless tv, exercise (well, I stopped about a year ago, due to MY stress with the A).

H and I spend time together, but it's usually with the children. We do (or did), however, go to lunch together (alone) at least 3 times a week, while the children were at school. Our life together alone became more about fulfilling "To Do" lists. We always seemed to be in a rush and had to accomplish a lot in a short period of time. HOWEVER, we always enjoyed each other's company. We still laughed and found solice in each other's company--right up until (and including) now. We have a bond. We still laugh at and with each other. We share memories and amusing things. We talk about parenting and friends and family. We're always planning our calendar together.

During the past few years, he noted that "ALL" I do is talk about my gf. He didn't like the "obsession". I guaranteed that it was all good for me. After all, I overcame a lot of fears due to this person. She seemingly brought me a world of good. The children loved her, and even H trusted, and liked her a lot. Anyway, we became more distant. We had difficulties with our dd (anxiety). She missed about 2 years of school. Last year we had to have tutors. Very, very stressful time. H told me it was probably due to my obsession, that dd was fearing my loyalties. I thought it was stupid! She knew that my priority was her (and ds). We went to family counseling, as well as therapy for our dd. It helped her enormously. The less stress we had with dd, the better my relationship seemed with H.

At this time, I was convinced that I was in love with both my gf and with H. Over time, I pulled away more from him and only wanted her. This was stressful. His faults were MAGNIFIED. He bugged me a lot, and I only craved alone time with my gf--on the computer, on the phone, and in my travels to her country and her to mine. I LIVED for those times. I tried to get by and fulfill my "duties" here, but I felt like I was slowly dying.

Two years later, and through MANY ups and downs with my gf, the A finally ended this past May (her doing). I didn't know where it was going to go. She ended (or tried to!) the sexual part a year before that. I felt numb, yet I still liked being here, with H. She often joked that I'd never leave my H, and that I truly DID love him. To an extent, that's true, but I know I've hurt him deeply, so maybe I didn't love him as much as I thought. I don't know...

So, for the past 4 months I've been in the "fog". I've been devastated that SHE left me. I've only had that happen once to me, in high school, and I had a hard time with it. With my gf, she assured me that I'd be the one to wake up and want to leave her. She had my heart, and knew how to pull on my heartstrings. I felt needed and wanted by her. Meanwhile, H and I got along okay, for the brief periods we'd spend together. Sex was a chore at that point. I'd think of my gf and get through it. Sad, when for a LONG time sex was a wonderous, beautiful thing between H and me. I was confused. Did I now only want to be with women, or was it just that ONE woman? Could I ever be happy with H again? Did I even LOOK at men sexually anymore? Very, very confusing. The whole label, sexual identity thing was on my mind daily.

Also daily reminders of my H trying to smother me (sexually) were ever present. Even to the point of feeling raped very, very often. My gf would sympathize with me and get very angry. I tried to justify it b/c I knew he just wanted things back the way they were, and I "owed" him the sexual relationship. I grew more and more resentful that he didn't seem to care that I didn't want sex. I felt like his whore. Keep in mind this happened when I lost over 40 pounds (on a SMALL body!!), and he now viewed me as an extremely sexual being. I felt exposed and used, whereas my gf had me feeling SO sexual, fulfilled and wanted. Very confusing.

The only other thing I'll leave you with is that despite going through this, the roughest of times, H and I are still close. He's suffering. I am too, for many different reasons. But we're still able to laugh, reminisce and have that closeness, although it's awkward often.

We seem to be getting along a little bttter, now that this has been in the open. I don't have to hide things, and he knows how I feel. He's not asking too many questions, and he doesn't talk too much about his feelings or how hurt this all made him, even though I encourage it. I'd be open to discussing anything with him.

I know that we both have a LOT of work, and I don't even know if we'll end up together. That'll be a decision on both our parts. Right now he wants me to get "healthy" and he wants to know if I want him back as a "husband". He tells me that he is still in love with me and he wants a romantic relationship back. It's very hard, with all of the stresses, and given all of the circumstances. I don't know what I want for me yet--if I want a relationship with a man (him), or a woman, or no one. Right now I want to heal, and I want him to heal, and I want us to be together, helping each other and being here together for our children. He feels the same way. Family--it IS our priority, even though they all thought that my gf was MY priority.

So, I have a lot to figure out. My H and I have this strong, strong bond; this friendship; this love, that I THINK we can build on again. We're both trying, and we're both willing to still be here together, and I think that says a lot. He's been patient and loving and great, and I'm TRYING to be nicer, patient and giving to him more, although it's been hard b/c I've been seriously depressed for so long. I stopped caring about myself; about my health. I stopped exercising, eating right and taking care of myself, and when I don't feel good or look good, I'm not too interested in relationships. But it's all SLOWLY starting to change.

My H and I still accomplish things together. We're going away on a family vacation (his decision) soon. Hopefully our dd will be able to go (considering her anxiety). This will be our first "real" family vacation. The children were never on a plane (they're teenagers). I WANT to spend time with my family, and even with my H. Hopefully it'll be good for all of us. We go in a couple of weeks.

H and I have gone out together for an occasional dinner or lunch, during the past few months. We still are capable of having a good time together. The only stressing factor is sex, and the whole A, but we're still underlyingly close. I am sure, and always have been sure,that my H and I will remain close for the remainder of our lives. No one surrounding us would be shocked by that-they've always seen us as having such a solid foundation.

One more thing (sorry this is so long), our MC suggested that during our entire relationship, maybe it was all based on a dream. Maybe it was what we both had pictured, due to our dysfunctional upbringings. Maybe he and I weren't meant to be together. I don't feel that way. His entering my life was a blessing, and I think it will always be. We've brought SO much to each other's lives, that there will always be a bond.

Hope this answers all of your questions. Sorry, this was a long day for me. My mom came here for Grandparent's Day, and I took her out to dinner along with my children, their friends and one sister of mine. It was a nice, but long day. My H went to a major league baseball game (this after a weekend of deep sea fishing with friends). My H is finally spending some time apart from us, trying to enjoy life. His life for SO long revolved around us, to the point of smothering us. In any event, it's been a long day. If I've left anything unanswered, please let me know. I'll try to check back some time tomorrow. Thanks for your input, your questions, and your care and concern. I'm deeply touched.

Sincerely,
CC

Dear CC:

Please reread the question JustJ asked of you and your answer and see if you indeed looked at what she was aking you for.

If you loved him at all does your comments about him show it? I have only ran through your post once so I will give you my impression of your H from what you described:

A shallow (trophy wife comment you disliked)conservative (read narrowminded)smothering clumsy goof, rapist (Iknow you were stating your feelings, however consider JustJ's questions)that was basically your friend because he provided you the ability the stay at home and raise your kids and you have similar senses of humor. Do you think I have your comments and the impression it gives right? Do you think that is what JustJ's questions were about.

Do I have a correct impression of your H? I don't think so.

I think JustJ is trying to get you to look outside of yourself and really look at the quality of the man standing right next to you still being there and loving you. You mentioned only being dumped once and how difficult it was getting over? Can you possibly imagine the dumping your H has taken and what his reaction to this dumping says about his character?

Think about this and reread JUstJ thoughful question and look at your answer and think about what it says about you not your H.

I am in a great rush today so if I rambled or missed the mark I apologize.

All my best

JD

CC,

I find it interesting that you feel your H is becoming conservative. It is probably true to some extent and it is also true that you would prefer a "liberal" approach to things such as commitment so that you are let off the hook. Recall Churchill's comment </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you are not liberal when you are young you don't have a heart. If you are not conservative when you get older, you don't have a brain.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am guessing that your H is getting more "conservative" as a reaction to YOUR behavior over the last few years. I am sure your affair with another woman also is part of it. But, mostly I am betting he seems more conservative because he is the unenviable position of trying to save a marriage ONLY he wants. You are driving him that way as you have essentially left many things to him as you focused more and more on your affair.

I also think that you are missing something when you rapsodize about always being friends with your H if you decide to leave him. I KNOW you are going to be wrong about this. He may well be "friendly" to you, but he will move on and find someone else and at that point you two CANNOT be friends any longer. Plus, you might find that you have hurt him far deeper than you realize and if it comes to pass that his efforts to deal with this affair fail, that pain will indeed surface.

You make many many assumptions about your H and it seems you always have. These often seem to come in the form of Disrespectful Judgements, DJ's. Of all of the LB's these are the most deadly because often the person doing them doesn't see them as that and acts on the assumptions. I worry greatly that you are NOT seeing the true situation with your H nor are you seeing the cost to him in waiting for you to decide if he merits your presence in your life. That is a pretty condenscending approach, although not uncommon with WS'.

Please as was suggested and reread JJ's post. She has a reason to ask you what she did, but I think you are missing it. I am guessing but I suspect she is sensing what I am. This is all about you, and really not about anyone else, thus you don't truely see the damage you are causing.

Consider this carefully.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Okay, I re-read my post, and JJ's question again. When I logged off after I wrote my last post, I thought of MANY more things that I didn't say about my H. So, let me try to clarify.

I admired my H because of his intellect, humanity and sense of humor. He seemed to be a good person. He was also self-confident, which I found to be attractive. He was 2 years older than I, and I also found that to be attractive.

I was sure right away that I wanted to marry him. It just felt right. We waited 4 years until we got married, and every day felt like I was more and more sure that I wanted to be with him. I admired so much about him. He seemed to be a hard-working person, and level-headed. He and I were (are) very opposite in many ways, yet we agreed on the fundamental issues, such as marrige, children, etc.

When we were first married, I was still sure that he was the right one for me. He possessed nearly all good qualities. When we had children, he turned out to be the BEST father I'd ever encountered. He cared so deeply about our children, and about every aspect of their lives. He is giving, caring, loving and selfless when it comes to the children. He wanted to make their lives as perfect as he could, and I admired him for that. I'd tell him often that he was a great dad. He often told me how much he admired me for being a great mom and for making our house a "home". I kept the house clean, well-decorated, and inviting. It was our haven. When most people came to our house, they remarked how warm and welcome they felt. We were both honored.

He was and still is the hardest working man I've known. His work ethic is STRONG. He cares deeply for the people. He sometimes worries too much about his clients. I told him a few times, "You're gonna go to heaven, but put us through hell first!", meaning that sometimes he'd wait to accept payment if his clients were having a rough time, even though it meant that it would then be a rough time for us! He's always been selfless and caring like that. He'd help anybody, anywhere. He always finds the good in people, and adheres to the motto, "If you don't have something nice to say, don't speak."

He's reinforced the good qualities in our children, and he's very verbal in reassuring them of their qualities. He's loving with them, and with me. He's very poetic, and very emotional.

As for my comments about him becoming more conservative as time went on, this change slowly started a few years ago, WELL before my changes started taking place. I'd note that his opinions started to change, and I saw it as an older-age thing. Everyone has the right to evolve and change. As far as him becoming more conservative as some kind of defense to my becoming more free or immoral, that may be true to some extent. I fully acknowledge that he tried to tie me down more the more I slowly pulled away from him. Hence the guilt-ladden sex I had with him towards the end of my A. I often spoke about it with him, telling him that if I said "no" about sex, then he'd have to adhere to that (I'm talking about cutting down from 5-7 days a week, to 2 or 3). Sometimes he'd take full advantage and "rape" me or make me feel like his personal whore. I went through a lot of self-hate and hatred towards him during this period. I was confused too because I felt very guilty over the A, and felt that I "owed" him our customary amount of sex.

Hope that answers most questions posed to me by the above posters. I tried to outline my H's good qualities, of which there are MANY. I have to say that I have been pretty sure of how he'd take the news of my A, and I was right--not to be big-headed about it. I realize that he was hurt--he was more devastated than I was. But in my heart I knew he cared about me, and he'd want what was best for me, and what's best for him. I also realize that that might change, and he might get fed up with me, and we might lose our connection. I realize that if he decides that he wants a full-time partner (in every sense of the word), then I'd probably lose out on my relationship with him. I realize that the clock is ticking and I have to come to some decision, but I know that I can't make that decision until I know it's right in my heart. I will NOT disappoint him again. I have to be sure that I'm capable of maintaining a healthy relationship with him before I could possibly commit to that. Any less than that would be living a lie. Right now I still feel that I'm not ready for that. I do see us getting closer every day, and I try to see things from his perspective. I'm not a cold-hearted *****. I understand what misery I've put him through, and continue to put him through daily, but I'm not playing some waiting game either. I'll make my decision when I'm sure of it, and if that's too late for him, it'll be my loss. I'm well aware of the chances I'm taking. I could lose the best thing that ever happened to me, and I probably don't deserve him. Time will tell.

Thank you all again for your input. If I've neglected to respond to anything, please let me know. I'm trying to see things not only from my perspective, but from his.

CC

CC, I'm glad that you remember and value the good things about your husband. I'm also glad that you understand that he has flaws. I really appreciate the walk down memory lane, though some of it was more like slogging through the street after the elephants come through, if you know what I mean. You've been through some tough times.

One thing that stood out for me was your terming sex as "rape." It's a tough one. I KNOW you felt raped. I know it all the way through.

What I don't know is whether your husband raped you..... because it's also clear that you told him to go ahead.

It's like your own guilt raped you -- because you chose not to say no. What an ugly trap to be in! I have such sympathy for you. I have just the same amount of sympathy for your husband, whom you also trapped with your guilt. Does he know that this act, one that he considers an act of love, you received as an act of brutality?

If he doesn't... then you have not been honest with him. And that will be a horrifically painful discussion for both of you, when you finally choose to have it.

There is NOTHING either of you can do to change that ugly past. Nothing either of you can do to make that sex into something wonderful.

You can, however, create a present and a future built upon the learning from those harmful acts. You in particular must learn that if you are being harmed, you must speak. It is not appropriate to keep silent out of guilt. It's not gonna save your marriage to do that.

What IS going to save your marriage? Honesty. Radical, transparent honesty. NOT about your husband, because that'll likely end up being disrespectful judgments.

No, I'm talking about honesty about YOUR SELF. I'm talking about speaking truths about your emotions, about your inner self, about how you feel about things.

I'm guessing here, but being that vulnerable to your husband -- does it scare the pants right off of ya? If it does, well, then you're heading in the right direction. Being vulnerable and open and all that stuff is scary as heck. You're going to be offering your best and your worst to your husband, and you're going to be asking to be treated with compassion.

I'd recommend a course in compassion for the both of you -- I think it would help you both tremendously. There are many many excellent books on the subject of compassion -- if you can't find something that really speaks to you, I've got a couple of suggestions.

Just think of it as opening a window into your inner world, and inviting your husband to spend time understanding who you've become, even as you spend time understanding who he has become. I bet it'll be a totally cool, awe-inspiring, sick-to-your-stomach scary, awful, joyful experience.

JustJ,

No, it WAS rape. I had gotten to the point where I didn't want sex (towards the last few months of my A), and I flat-out told H that I didn't want it, and he was very, very forceful. I'd tell him afterwards that it was rape and he denied that it could be rape, since we're married. I told him many times that if it was not agreeable between us both, and if I vehemently objected to it, then it was rape.

We discussed it in MC and he said that he was trying to force me into a physical closeness since he felt me pulling away and he was scared. Understandable.

Funny that we're discussing this. A few nights ago, H and I went out to dinner with close friends of ours. We had a really nice time. It was nice being with H again in a social situation (without the children). We had quite a few drinks over the evening. We got home and he was amorous. This wasn't agreed upon in MC. We agreed that we'd wait until I was ready or if I initiated it first that would be okay. Well, I wasn't exactly objecting (I was a bit tipsy, and so was he), and it was going well. BUT THEN (and I'm sorry if this is tmi!!) he "accidentally" entered me anally and I hit the roof!! I yelped in pain and he quickly stopped. I've been in pain for 3 days now, and he felt bad about it. Now I feel scared off of sex for a long while. Maybe we're on the right path though, if I didn't object to it. I also have had sexual dreams about H, which I haven't had in years!! I always used to daydream and have dreams about my gf. So, this was certainly strange. Maybe it means that he and I are getting closer??

I'll try to do more reading and will continue with our MC. I still didn't find a counselor for me alone that I'm comfortable with. I see myself slowly getting better daily and possibly coming out of the fog a bit. I hope so! I AM trying to think of H more and to be compassionate. We'll see what happens.

Thanks for your time and your advice. It's appreciated!

CC