Well Stanley, not to get into too many details. Just suffice it to say that my WH is a football fan. You know when they pause the game to have the referees look at a replay before making the call? During that time, WH can have SF, start to finish, including foreplay, and still not miss the next play. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Well Stanley, not to get into too many details. Just suffice it to say that my WH is a football fan. You know when they pause the game to have the referees look at a replay before making the call? During that time, WH can have SF, start to finish, including foreplay, and still not miss the next play.

Encounters come in many flavors and different lengths. But, now that I am older and have realized I don’t have that many more years of an active sex life I would rather have a long session with lots of foreplay rather than a quicky.

During the peak of my sperm competition syndrome and when Myrta loss her libido after an initial burst of hypersexuality she did me a few favors so I could have an orgasm. But she made it clear it was a favor and she was not that aroused. I did not enjoy that kind of sex at all. The best sex I ever had is when Myrta enjoyed herself. Who cares about how I feel, if she is having a good time the sex is good for me. Ideally the partners feed of each other’s sexual arousal.

BTW, I suspect sex between Myrta and the OM was more of a frenzied highly energetic bang bang we are done thing. However, in their encounters they would do it multiple times. You may find this hard to believe, but the OM bought Myrta a book about positions because he was growing tired of the missionary style. Myrta said she never ventured beyond the missionary position. But, who knows----- I was not there. OM also wanted oral sex very badly and Myrta did not agree-------- at least that is what she says to me. OM also longed for a slower pace and for Mytta to linger in bed when they were done. In a macabre way I can relish those things with Myrta since she did not share that type of intimacy with the OM.

It is amazing how low (talking about self-esteem!) one can go following the discovery of an affair. Imagine me discussing with Myrta these things or whether she should go back to the OM for a good-bye session. Gawd! As a husband I never imagine these talks! I guess I was looking for straws------ anything positive!

However, in the end I find these things have to be discussed and somehow after some time they become trivial and may even become the subject of a joke. That is why I find that talking about the affair in an honest way promotes healing. If one is in the dark about all these details then healing is almost impossible.

As for your husband------ yeah a lot of guys are like that. However, there is something romantic about a quickie like that if other sessions are appropriately long.

<small>[ September 22, 2004, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Update:

Myrta had some withdrawal symptoms today, was depressed all day and had misty eyes when I talked to her. She admitted the OM is still in her system. She keeps telling me I have nothing to worry about.

On a good note Myrta opened up and told me a lot of stuff about the affair. Apparently felt quite safe as I did not get judgmental. She felt she was hurting me, but I encouraged to go on as I need to get over these things as well.

Stanley,

This is good news and you did very well to listen to her.

Myrta, take good care of yourself and the best way to do that is keep talking to your H. You are now seeing that this stuff is more insidious that most realize. You are doing very well actually. Keep talking to him and let him carry you through this part. He will need your help soon enough, but let your H help you now.

Now you to behave <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> and keep doing what you are doing. You both are doing better than you realize.

God Bless,

JL

(((((((((((((((((((((Myrta)))))))))))))))))))))))

Hugs to you from California.

Hugs to believer from Stan and Myrta.

STAN(((((((((((((((Believer))))))))))))))MYRTA

Lets make a sandwich!


I am not sure Myrta is ready to send hugs to JL yet! Just kidding!

Anyway------ someone had said that true withdrawal starts with the last contact and when there is a realization there will never ever be contact again. Myrta admitted withdrawal today, however she claims is not as bad as early on. One wonders if her withdrawal would have been better if there had been no phone calls.

She really talked today and told me details I never knew as well as her state of mind during the encounters. I was a little bit in shock, but at the same time was gratified with her honesty. Now I can clearly see how emotional affairs destroy marriages.

She openly stated she has no regrets staying in the marriage because I am her husband. However, her feelings for the OM are not gone and I have to accept that. She keeps saying I have nothing to worry about.

I reminded her that the relationship to the OM was built on fantasy and castles in the air. In fact, the OM's romantic relationship ended abruptly on D-day. The relationship did not have a base and thus it simply evaporated. OTOH, a 31 year old marriage does not end in that manner.

I also reminded Myrta that if she had to live with the OM 24/7 and see his face on a daily basis with all the mundane problems of the world the relationship would die. Myrta is a smart woman---- despite her feelings she knows the OM is a no win situation.

So I keep plugging away devoid of any pride. I simply love her and will do my best to whether this storm and to offer my support. Myrta already knows I will always protect her------------ she is not worried anymore.

BTW, once again I said some nasty things about the OM (I cannot help it). Myrta was more understanding of my remarks and did not get upset with me. It was a good day of communication!

Stanley - I will bump up the WW thread. I wish you and Myrta would read it. Very painful, but tells it like it is. The thread is on the General Questions forum.

Stanley - I bumped it up - it is very long. Hope you can read through it and kinda understand what the WW is going through/thinking.

Believer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> thank you for your hugs!!! Got them all!

Just Learning............hmm <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Is this the same "Just Learning" of last week? You sound completely different with me now. What made you change your tune with me? Before I was doing so badly, doing this,not doing that,etc.
Anyways thank you for your positive input now, although................
I hope everything is well with you and your wife.Everybody is here to help everybody, is not a one sided thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Take care.
Myrta

Believer:

Stanley - I bumped it up - it is very long. Hope you can read through it and kinda understand what the WW is going through/thinking.

I cannot find the thread. Is it in the General Questions II? Is there a General Questions I?

What is the name of the thread?

Sorry for simple questions!

Stanley - It is on the 2nd page in General Questions - "Appropriate Help Please" by Broken Vessel. It's probably better to let it disappear because it caused so much negative attention. Plus BV edited out many of her posts because of all of the criticism.

But it is a good look into the minds and hearts of these women. And they are doing fine now, just not posting anymore.

Stanley,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I reminded her that the relationship to the OM was built on fantasy and castles in the air. In fact, the OM's romantic relationship ended abruptly on D-day. The relationship did not have a base and thus it simply evaporated. OTOH, a 31 year old marriage does not end in that manner.

I also reminded Myrta that if she had to live with the OM 24/7 and see his face on a daily basis with all the mundane problems of the world the relationship would die. Myrta is a smart woman---- despite her feelings she knows the OM is a no win situation.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley, Stanley, stop "reminding" Myrta about what OM is or is not. You just let her open up and let her tell you what she feels and felt. As she comes out of withdrawal (and yes despite what she says she is still in it) her views will change. She is already changing. Let this process continue. You just be there for her.

She has to figure out if she made the right choices or not. She has to face how she gave her heart to someone else. She has to face that this will be with her. And Stanley the sad but true fact is that there will likely always be something in her heart for this man. THAT IS WHY NC IS SOOOOOOO IMPORTANT. And eventually she has to face that she betrayed you, your love, and your trust.

If she does not, the marriage is in trouble. But, Stanley you can only let her open up, you cannot educate her. Don't you see why I have been hard on her? I am because I CAN be. She doesn't love me, she is not married to me, and it doesn't bother me if she is mad or not. I can be hard on her because what I am saying is right, AND she has you. You support her now. That is what is necessary. Yes, it feels like you are getting the shaft, because YOU are the one that is hurt. But, Stanley if this works as most of us think it will, she will become strong enough to help you. Not just bandaid your wounds, but actually be able to help heal them by being strong enough to face you and do for you what you are now doing for her...listening, validating, and yes you are learning as will she.

Stanley, I keep saying this is a process and it really is, but you two don't go through the process in the same way at the same time. I know you fear that you will never get what you crave from her and you may not. But, it is possible you will get even more than you think, if you help her heal. She must heal and you need to help. Then, it will be time to work on you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So I keep plugging away devoid of any pride. I simply love her and will do my best to whether this storm and to offer my support. Myrta already knows I will always protect her------------ she is not worried anymore.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There you go, right now it is all about Myrta, but hopefully as she heals things will balance out.

Hang in there Stanley you are doing well.

God Bless,

JL

Myrta,

You asked </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is this the same "Just Learning" of last week? You sound completely different with me now. What made you change your tune with me? Before I was doing so badly, doing this,not doing that,etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yup, the same guy. What has changed is YOU. You are letting your defenses down and surprise instead of hammering on you about your defenses, we can now talk about recovery, and all that goes with it. Bring those defenses back up Young Lady, and you will hear about it again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

As I said to your H, this is a process. Step one is to get you to stop defending and start really listening to your H. That seems to be happening. Further, contrary to your and frankly most of our fears, when the defenses come down people won't attack, they will actually help.

Now that is why I am on your H's back about a few things. If you open up, HE needs to step up and become your defense and safe place. It is hard because he feels a lot of pain and feel HE needs a safe place, but for him right now no place is safe because you are still dealing with OM in your mind. As that gets settled and you can really face your H and see what you have done to him, then YOU must become a safe place for him. You will need to help him heal as well.

This means no LB's from either of you. There are still some, and some of them are the most insidious they are the disrespectful judgements, DJ's. You need to read about them in the articles. This DJ's often cause a spouse to make the wrong decision for the wrong reasons.

You two are doing better than you realize. I am very glad to hear you are opening up to your H. You may not realize this but it is planting the seeds for a deep trust. It will take time for it to grow, but as you open up and really examine what happened and what the fallout of it is, he will begin to trust again.

Hang inthere.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> “Stanley, Stanley, stop "reminding" Myrta about what OM is or is not. You just let her open up and let her tell you what she feels and felt. As she comes out of withdrawal (and yes despite what she says she is still in it) her views will change. She is already changing. Let this process continue. You just be there for her.”</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is so hard for me not to say anything about the OM; however, I have been doing a whole lot better in that regard. The OM is the antithesis of myself in everything! I know Myrta has no plans (or ever had plans) to leave the marriage. But, I AM SCARED of the future. I have come to realize how strong those feelings are in an affair, probably more so than in a normal relationship in broad daylight.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> “She has to figure out if she made the right choices or not. She has to face how she gave her heart to someone else. She has to face that this will be with her. And Stanley the sad but true fact is that there will likely always be something in her heart for this man. THAT IS WHY NC IS SOOOOOOO IMPORTANT.” </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta says over and over again that I have nothing to worry about. I guess she is so sure of herself that she felt it was OK to talk to the OM and even see him in person. However, when she opened up she admitted seeing the OM in person was hard on her. Maybe that is why she was tearful last night. Maybe she has realized the OM will never be in her path again. She also says that she hates the idea that the OM was disappointed with her decision to stay in the marriage. The OM told Myrta I don’t love her. The OM told her he feels betrayed and like a fool because he thought he was in a real relationship with Myrta.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> “And eventually she has to face that she betrayed you, your love, and your trust.”</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do I know if she has done this or not? She was remorseful immediately after D-day. She dumped the OM. What else can she do? As a WW she has done better than average in the forum.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> “If she does not, the marriage is in trouble. But, Stanley you can only let her open up, you cannot educate her.” </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta sometimes say I am trying to control her. And that is a lot because I am not the controlling type.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> “You support her now. That is what is necessary. Yes, it feels like you are getting the shaft, because YOU are the one that is hurt.”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is one of the main reasons she does not want to talk. She feels she is hurting me. However, I keep telling her I am healing with her words. She admitted that when she was with the OM there was no conscious thought in her mind about anything, but the OM. There is not a single mental frame of the BH or family. That was useful to know since we always ask---- “What were you thinking?”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">“But, Stanley if this works as most of us think it will, she will become strong enough to help you. Not just bandaid your wounds, but actually be able to help heal them by being strong enough to face you and do for you what you are now doing for her...listening, validating, and yes you are learning as will she.”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is what I want. Right now I am so insecure that I feel I can only save my marriage by watching her and by making sure she has NC with OM. This makes me look as a needy insecure person and Myrta will be the 1st one to tell you that I have never been like that. I think that the only way to prevent a catastrophe is for Myrta and I to become VERY CLOSE. This will be hard for her; she always had a wall of some sort in front of her. It also saddens me to know she was so emotionally close to the OM.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> “I know you fear that you will never get what you crave from her and you may not. But, it is possible you will get even more than you think, if you help her heal. She must heal and you need to help. Then, it will be time to work on you.” </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I pray it will be that way. I really love Myrta and I don’t want to lose her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
------------------------------------------------------------------------
“So I keep plugging away devoid of any pride. I simply love her and will do my best to whether this storm and to offer my support. Myrta already knows I will always protect her------------ she is not worried anymore.”
------------------------------------------------------------------------
“There you go, right now it is all about Myrta, but hopefully as she heals things will balance out.
Hang in there Stanley you are doing well.”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never thought I would end up with no pride in my relationship with Myrta. Life is strange!

<small>[ September 23, 2004, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>

Myrta & Stanley

I see you too are getting so much better at the communixation thing I might have to come & get some lessons!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

This stuff is so hard isn't it? Hard for us to hear, hard for our wifes to tell.

I can see both of you changing and its so great to see. Keep it up and love each other especially when its hard.

Stanley when you want to say something nasty about OM just post to me & we can both vent here nice & safely & not upset our wifes right now!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You know the funny thing I'm finding out now is that having fully realised she wasn't really emotionally involved with the OM she now interepts my verbal comments on the OM as a attack on her good taste! Dont ask me to explain that one I'm just going with it right now

Aussie:

We guys tend to get all bend out of shape about the sex. In a sense that is not the biggest problem (assuming they don’t catch STD). The main problem is the emotional connection. This is what causes the WW to do irrational things. In affairs for sex women can become emotionally involved and crazy things can occur. If your wife was simply drinking it may not be a bad situation. Myrta was fully conscious and sober. In fact she never drinks!

I will never be able to understand it. I have always been so emotionally locked to my wife that I simply could not get hooked that way to another woman. I am not saying that I am a saint------------ I could probably be unfaithful if a nice woman got me drunk and I was 3,000 miles away from home, but that is not likely to happen. But, even then at best it would be a one-time deal and Myrta would know by just looking at my face as soon as I walked into the house. I am not cut to be an OM, no doubt.

Myrta seems to be doing great today and continues to make occasional jokes about the A which in a sense I like since it tends to trivialize the ordeal. I think this also serves her as a mechanism of defense. I look forward to see what Myrta may have to say tonight when I get home. I just talked to her over the phone and she said that two men flirted with her this afternoon. She called them potential OM(s)---- she is just kidding!

So can I conclude that next to the OM you are a stud? All of us BH tend to think that way------- you are no different!

Keep up the good work with your wife!

Just Believer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Again , thank you for your advice and good wishes for our marriage.
You were right all along, I guess I am still a bit in withdrawal <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . I hate to admit it, but I guess I was trying to lie to myself. Sometimes I find myself thinking about the OM, a little bit too much. I know I will not go back to the affair, but yet I still think about the "things" we did, our talks,etc. Despite him being a typical OM, I think he was different with "ME". My husband gets angry if I defend him, but he attacks him too much, and it makes me angry. He always compares himself to him, and tells me that he is so much better than the OM. I know that, he knows that, the OM knows that, so why say it so much? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
My husband does mention him a lot, sometimes I want to forget, but not a day goes by that he has to mention HIM. I would like for him to take some breaks and not talk about him, and just relax and talk about other things. But HE is always in our conversations. When we make love he is there too. Because my husband wants details then! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Of course the OM is still fresh in my body, and it just refreshs my wants and desires for him.
He is always asking me who is better in bed, and I always tell him that they are both different and cannot be compared. But he thinks that I like sex with the OM more. And to tell you the truth I have always liked having sex with my husband, and I also liked having sex with the OM. I am sexual, he knows that. Since I was very young, I was very aware of my sexuality. He was always more serious and trying to make me a "good girl". I think I am, but, he might think that I am not! He always tells me that he likes the way I am. That he would not have any other way, but at the same time, he wants to change my thoughts and actions.
Yesterday I told him many things, I opened up quiet a bit, but he got kind of shocked with the new information. I hurt his feelings, even though he ways I did not. Thats why I dont like to tell him things, because he gets more hurt,and it kills me to see him like that. I feel like a monster saying things like that to him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Well, I felt like I had to say this things here.
Myrta

Myrta -

Your thoughts and feelings are completely normal. And you are doing much, much better than most. You are still very early in this.

I think you and your husband should spend some time relaxing, doing fun things, and building new memories together.

Stanley -

Time to stop asking questions for a bit, and stop letting OM into your thoughts. One book on recovery that I read (forget which one), says to write a question on a piece of paper, and allow Myrta time to write out an answer. Then take some time until you have another question.

Our brains are just like a computer. They like to go over and over the same stuff. But you are not your mind. You can think of other things.

I know that you are anxious for answers and the truth. I never got either one - not even one answer or one truth. So be a little patient.

Ouch Myrta!

Well, I think we both talk about the OM, perhaps I do so more often. I know that I can be annoying if Myrta is not in the mood to talk, but you never know when all those extra details are coming out---- Myrta talks in spurts.

Myrta is still defensive, not as much, but we are getting there. However, more than details I long to know the content of Myrta’s heart. She tends to switch into a jocular mode to smooth things over.

In any event I am lucky, Myrta has made it very clear she is staying in the marriage and the OM feels betrayed---- yeah he feels betrayed. She keeps saying there is no way in hell she will have contact again and I am very happy about that.

Sure, it was painful to hear the circumstances on how the encounters developed. I know quite well what the encounters are all about, but the circumstances are different and that is a part of Myrta that I know nothing about. As long as there is a wall in there we cannot be together emotionally.

BTW, I have not shown any anger or resentment at all to Myrta and she knows this quite well. So far I have relished her openings even if the content of the conversation is difficult to assimilate.

I despise the withdrawal period and perhaps I think I can make it go away by telling Myrta that I am a better man than the OM. However, I think this will only go away with tincture of time.

And Myrta------------ I know you are kind to me when you say we are equal in the sac. I am a 30-year old car and the OM is a brand new sports machine (it is all relative and between the ears). As I said before good sex happens when the couple is emotionally connected. Acrobatics are secondary!

Regarding the OM:

He is a typical OM with the appropriate prior history, ect.

Gee, I just noted this posted is peppered with OM stuff.

Back to the drawing board!

<small>[ September 23, 2004, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: Stanley568 ]</small>